Last night I played with x4 Evil Presence in my sideboard and I was actually impressed how it was able to make big mana decks stumble enough so that I could win. Obviously need more testing but it felt much better than Fulminator.
A new Series of Keep or Mull excercises, also added a poll for it (unfortunately am not quite sure how to do the poll in a optimal way, so you need to select one of the two options for each hand, either keep or mull, even if you can select both)
Hand #1: Against Tron, G2, on the play: Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, Blooming Marsh, Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, Fulminator Mage.
Hand #2: Against unknown, G1, on the draw: Fatal Push, Tarmogoyf, Raging Ravine, Blood Crypt, Blackcleave Cliffs, Blooming Marsh, Verdant Catacombs.
Hand #3: Against unknown, G1, on the play: Liliana, the Last Hope, Scavenging Ooze x3, Tarmogoyf, Verdant Catacombs, Bloodstained Mire.
Hand #4: Against Grixis Shadow, G1, on the play: Liliana of the Veil x2, Tarmogoyf, Raging Ravine, Stomping Ground, Thoughtseize, Maelstrom Pulse.
Hand #5: Against Affinity, G2, on the draw: Bloodstained Mire, Inquisition of Kozilek x2, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, Tarmogoyf, Fatal Push.
Pls feel free to vote in the Poll of the threat, it will last for one week. Pls only vote once for each hand to get meaningful results.
Thanks!
Quick recap of the poll from last week:
Hand #1: This hand is a tricky one for myself even. I intentionally included this hand to see what you guys are saying. Seems that most of you would mull this hand. I guess this is definitely no mistake and correct. However, I am finding arguments for keeping this hand as well. Basically, it is a very greedy hand. You got everything you want against tron, you got turn 1 discard, into potentially turn 2 goyf and so on. The big problem is the missing second land. If I would have won the first game, I would have snap mulled here I think, since I can definitely afford it. But since we are down a game here, we really need to win this game in order to progress. I think sometimes this would mean being greedy is not wrong. Its definitely safest to mull and hope to draw a similar good hand, but I am a little bit torn on this one. Going to say safe mull or greedy keep. Depends if you are a gambler or not. I think I personally would have kept.
Hand #2: This hand does not look like a great hand, but you got your landrops guaranteed with this one. A rmeoval plus clock is nice, and I think you can keep this one.
Hand #3: Triple Ooze does seem really bad, but generally, you have a good mix of action and lands, plus you are on the play. Seems good to me, so I would keep this one.
Hand #4: Snap mull for me. You cannot cast anything in this hand before turn 3, and you need multiple black sources for doing so. TS is basically stranded at this point, and you really would like to play it turn 1 if you can. This hand is very clunky and you even got the wrong colours in lands. You have to mull this I think.
Hand #5: Although this hand does not contain a second land, you got plenty of interaction to work with. I think this is a keep given the situation you are in. You are up one game and thus you can probably afford it to risk not hitting a landdrop in the next 2 turns. YOu are on the draw, so you got an extra card. And your opponent will play its threats out first. If the opponent plays a Steel Overseer you bolt it. If your opponent just plays a bunch of Memnites, then IOK for a potential PLating or Champion or the like. The second IOK might not be that great anymore, but if you hit your second landdrop, you can cast it and still hold up Bolt/push. As soon as you hit your second landdrop you can deploy a goyf as threat. For me this seems good enough.
Do you actually keep discard spells in the main deck after game 1 against Affinity?
Glad I'm not the only one thinking having them in G2 is odd. I always board out discard for that matchup since many times its essentially dead on turn one. Whats the rationale for keeping them in?
Do you actually keep discard spells in the main deck after game 1 against Affinity?
Glad I'm not the only one thinking having them in G2 is odd. I always board out discard for that matchup since many times its essentially dead on turn one. Whats the rationale for keeping them in?
I think especially on turn 1 its not dead. Often times the affinity player will start off by playing their Memnites, Signal Pests, Vault Skirges and Drums, leaving their payoff cards (Arcbound, Overseer, Champion) in hand until turn 2 or 3. In this timephrame discard is prob the best way for us to deal with Champions. Thats why I like the IOK more over the LOTVs here.
And you keep dark confidants in game 2-3? Sometimes i lose due to life loss against affinity
Yeah, for me Bob has never been an issue. But its alright to board him out. For me the Affinity matchup mostly boils down to Etched Champion and whether we can answer him. Every other threat was no problem for me, and I played against a lot of Affinity. And thats why I like more answers for Champion.
Last night I played with x4 Evil Presence in my sideboard and I was actually impressed how it was able to make big mana decks stumble enough so that I could win. Obviously need more testing but it felt much better than Fulminator.
Has this card been forgotten somehow? It definitely looks much better than Fulminator against big mana decks, being relevant also on the draw.
Last night I played with x4 Evil Presence in my sideboard and I was actually impressed how it was able to make big mana decks stumble enough so that I could win. Obviously need more testing but it felt much better than Fulminator.
Has this card been forgotten somehow? It definitely looks much better than Fulminator against big mana decks, being relevant also on the draw.
I ordered a playset of these, have to try em out.
Evil Presence or Contaminated Ground generate discussion now and then in various deck forums but they are generally not thought competitive. They may be good tech for Shadow Jund - hard-cast those Street Wraiths baby!
I ran 4 lotv main and 2 ltlh sb for a long time already, besides the sweet new rule. Always was amazing.
How is Ltlh? I have never used her as i generally dont play standard so i skipped over her. What kind of decks do you like her against and stuff? I'm looking into buying her at rotation since i had to rebuy fulminator mages since i forgot i sold mine when looking at living end decks.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I ran 4 lotv main and 2 ltlh sb for a long time already, besides the sweet new rule. Always was amazing.
How is Ltlh? I have never used her as i generally dont play standard so i skipped over her. What kind of decks do you like her against and stuff? I'm looking into buying her at rotation since i had to rebuy fulminator mages since i forgot i sold mine when looking at living end decks.
Basically, she is amazing in all situations where LOTV is bad. Great against creature based decks, against go-wide strategies and great in grindy matchups as well. She is also amazing vs. Control. The only type of deck she is bad against is Combo decks and Big Mana decks. But for every other matchup, I want her basically.
With the release of Ixalan and the rule change regarding Planeswalkers, I will definitely try out 6 Lilis mainboard (4 LotV/2 LtlH). The last Hope generates an incredible amount of value against swarm strategies, control and midrange mirror. I always loved her in my sideboard and I am sure that being able to include her into the mainboard will improve certain matchups by quite a margin.
Only question is what to cut: currently I am thinking about 1 4-drop and K-command (as it serves a similar role to Liliana) but I am not yet sold on that.
I ran 4 lotv main and 2 ltlh sb for a long time already, besides the sweet new rule. Always was amazing.
How is Ltlh? I have never used her as i generally dont play standard so i skipped over her. What kind of decks do you like her against and stuff? I'm looking into buying her at rotation since i had to rebuy fulminator mages since i forgot i sold mine when looking at living end decks.
Basically, she is amazing in all situations where LOTV is bad. Great against creature based decks, against go-wide strategies and great in grindy matchups as well. She is also amazing vs. Control. The only type of deck she is bad against is Combo decks and Big Mana decks. But for every other matchup, I want her basically.
What are you thinking for the generic pw split after Ixalan release and the rules change for a unknown meta?
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Last night I played with x4 Evil Presence in my sideboard and I was actually impressed how it was able to make big mana decks stumble enough so that I could win. Obviously need more testing but it felt much better than Fulminator.
Has this card been forgotten somehow? It definitely looks much better than Fulminator against big mana decks, being relevant also on the draw.
I ordered a playset of these, have to try em out.
yea I top 4'd a 50+ man tournament yesterday and anytime I went up against any tron variants and had 1 in my opening hand it was crucial in me winning the game. It's cheap and allows us to curve out properly. Fulminator always felt terrible. I don't wanna spend 3 mana casting a 2/2 that may or may not even effect the board.
What are you thinking for the generic pw split after Ixalan release and the rules change for a unknown meta?
I personally will test the new PW rule for a full extent when its going live. That means I will start with a 4-2 split of LoTV and LtLH and see how well they work alongside each other. Likely gonna cut down on KCommands for this. I am not sure if this split will be good, but I want to test the waters and see if its viable at all to run more planeswalkers.
If the rule is real and good enough, then I can see more PW being run in MBs. I think up to 5-6 PWs mainboard should be great then. The split will likely always fall in favor of LOTV, but anywhere between 3-2, 4-1 or even 3-3 or 4-2 can be viable in my perspective.
I made a fast report of my first local event with jund.
I was happy with my result and I thought I did well, even with so many bad-matches
Round 1 UWr Control: 0x2
G1: I keep a hand vs company (2 removals, 1 iok, 1 creature and lands), I easily lost
G2: I tried to force Chandra, but I failed, I lost without answers (I need Thrun on the side)
Round 2: Blue Jund (Sultai) 2x0
G1: Very aggressive hand, with seize, bob, goyf, push, I won very fast
G2: Side out all disrupts and won with chandra (opponent solved 2 ancetrall vision)
Round 3: BW Tokens (terrible match) 2x1
G1: I draw 2 removals, my creatures died, I lost fast.
G2: Side out removals and disrupts, side in 14 cards. Very difficult game, opponent draw very bad and i flooded, but the big creatures and bob made me win
G3: I win very quickly, creatures fast, decay and surgical helped a lot
Round 4: BW Tokens (terrible match x2) 2x0
G1: This opponent used many creatures(like de BW Guy, Brimaz), great for me! Spot removals, Goyf and Bob to victory!
G2: Side out removals and disrupts, side in 14 cards. Slow game, gideon gave a lot of work, but Pulse made the difference and goyf / ooze did the job
Round 5: Eldrazi Tron 0x2
G1: I solved many problems (6-7 big creatures) and only draw lands, one last Smasher solved the game
G2: Again, I solved a lot of threats, but a ballista killed my Goblin and Ooze and took smasher on the top deck
Considerations:
I do not know if Goblin was as efficient as i imagined
I need Thrun and a second Virulent Plague
Maybe a 4th Fulminator
Oh man! Bow of Nylea is super spicy! I'll have to try that.
@slaiter, Illness in the Ranks is also effective against tokens (not against Gideon tokens though) and cheaper, but Engineered Explosives is just the best thing ever against tokens. Just an idea. Also, I agree with LEH, boarding out discard spells and Maelstrom Pulse against them seems a little suspect. Abrupt Decay is really good against their enchantments as well. A resolved fatty that keeps bashing on the walls usually folds them up if they don't have the resources to keep making more
Grim Flayer is pretty good against tokens. Anything with trample would be. And as others have mentioned, Maelstrom Pulse is one of the best cards for the match-up. I always bring in the second copy against anything running even just Lingering Souls. As has been also mentioned, Engineered Explosives is even better. Glissa, the Traitor and EE is obscene.
Glissa is just a pet card - fun for FNM. Don't get excited about the shout out to her, folks.
I did not explain well when I said that I removed all the spot removals (I removed push and terminate)
Clarifying my side plan against Tokens:
OUT:
- 4 Fatal Push
- 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
- 1 Liliana of the Veil
- 3 Terminate
- 3 Thoughtseize
I love Pulse, if possible I would use 4, lol
I agree on Anger is much better and completely forgot! I'll change it today!
Glissa is very funny, but I will not do that test, lol.
And about the MD, i need Lavamancer? If i trade Lavamancer for 1 CB MD for a new 1 space in SB, it's good?
Has anyone else tested the Goblin yet?
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Quick recap of the poll from last week:
Hand #1: This hand is a tricky one for myself even. I intentionally included this hand to see what you guys are saying. Seems that most of you would mull this hand. I guess this is definitely no mistake and correct. However, I am finding arguments for keeping this hand as well. Basically, it is a very greedy hand. You got everything you want against tron, you got turn 1 discard, into potentially turn 2 goyf and so on. The big problem is the missing second land. If I would have won the first game, I would have snap mulled here I think, since I can definitely afford it. But since we are down a game here, we really need to win this game in order to progress. I think sometimes this would mean being greedy is not wrong. Its definitely safest to mull and hope to draw a similar good hand, but I am a little bit torn on this one. Going to say safe mull or greedy keep. Depends if you are a gambler or not. I think I personally would have kept.
Hand #2: This hand does not look like a great hand, but you got your landrops guaranteed with this one. A rmeoval plus clock is nice, and I think you can keep this one.
Hand #3: Triple Ooze does seem really bad, but generally, you have a good mix of action and lands, plus you are on the play. Seems good to me, so I would keep this one.
Hand #4: Snap mull for me. You cannot cast anything in this hand before turn 3, and you need multiple black sources for doing so. TS is basically stranded at this point, and you really would like to play it turn 1 if you can. This hand is very clunky and you even got the wrong colours in lands. You have to mull this I think.
Hand #5: Although this hand does not contain a second land, you got plenty of interaction to work with. I think this is a keep given the situation you are in. You are up one game and thus you can probably afford it to risk not hitting a landdrop in the next 2 turns. YOu are on the draw, so you got an extra card. And your opponent will play its threats out first. If the opponent plays a Steel Overseer you bolt it. If your opponent just plays a bunch of Memnites, then IOK for a potential PLating or Champion or the like. The second IOK might not be that great anymore, but if you hit your second landdrop, you can cast it and still hold up Bolt/push. As soon as you hit your second landdrop you can deploy a goyf as threat. For me this seems good enough.
Glad I'm not the only one thinking having them in G2 is odd. I always board out discard for that matchup since many times its essentially dead on turn one. Whats the rationale for keeping them in?
That could be true thats right. I did not think about that some board out all discard. I personally tend to keep iok in an board out ts.
Usually i cut more lotv due to this. But good point, definitely!
I think especially on turn 1 its not dead. Often times the affinity player will start off by playing their Memnites, Signal Pests, Vault Skirges and Drums, leaving their payoff cards (Arcbound, Overseer, Champion) in hand until turn 2 or 3. In this timephrame discard is prob the best way for us to deal with Champions. Thats why I like the IOK more over the LOTVs here.
Yeah, for me Bob has never been an issue. But its alright to board him out. For me the Affinity matchup mostly boils down to Etched Champion and whether we can answer him. Every other threat was no problem for me, and I played against a lot of Affinity. And thats why I like more answers for Champion.
Has this card been forgotten somehow? It definitely looks much better than Fulminator against big mana decks, being relevant also on the draw.
I ordered a playset of these, have to try em out.
Evil Presence or Contaminated Ground generate discussion now and then in various deck forums but they are generally not thought competitive. They may be good tech for Shadow Jund - hard-cast those Street Wraiths baby!
Yes, that last bit was a joke.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
How is Ltlh? I have never used her as i generally dont play standard so i skipped over her. What kind of decks do you like her against and stuff? I'm looking into buying her at rotation since i had to rebuy fulminator mages since i forgot i sold mine when looking at living end decks.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Basically, she is amazing in all situations where LOTV is bad. Great against creature based decks, against go-wide strategies and great in grindy matchups as well. She is also amazing vs. Control. The only type of deck she is bad against is Combo decks and Big Mana decks. But for every other matchup, I want her basically.
Only question is what to cut: currently I am thinking about 1 4-drop and K-command (as it serves a similar role to Liliana) but I am not yet sold on that.
What are you thinking for the generic pw split after Ixalan release and the rules change for a unknown meta?
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
yea I top 4'd a 50+ man tournament yesterday and anytime I went up against any tron variants and had 1 in my opening hand it was crucial in me winning the game. It's cheap and allows us to curve out properly. Fulminator always felt terrible. I don't wanna spend 3 mana casting a 2/2 that may or may not even effect the board.
I personally will test the new PW rule for a full extent when its going live. That means I will start with a 4-2 split of LoTV and LtLH and see how well they work alongside each other. Likely gonna cut down on KCommands for this. I am not sure if this split will be good, but I want to test the waters and see if its viable at all to run more planeswalkers.
If the rule is real and good enough, then I can see more PW being run in MBs. I think up to 5-6 PWs mainboard should be great then. The split will likely always fall in favor of LOTV, but anywhere between 3-2, 4-1 or even 3-3 or 4-2 can be viable in my perspective.
I made a fast report of my first local event with jund.
I was happy with my result and I thought I did well, even with so many bad-matches
Round 1 UWr Control: 0x2
G1: I keep a hand vs company (2 removals, 1 iok, 1 creature and lands), I easily lost
G2: I tried to force Chandra, but I failed, I lost without answers (I need Thrun on the side)
Round 2: Blue Jund (Sultai) 2x0
G1: Very aggressive hand, with seize, bob, goyf, push, I won very fast
G2: Side out all disrupts and won with chandra (opponent solved 2 ancetrall vision)
Round 3: BW Tokens (terrible match) 2x1
G1: I draw 2 removals, my creatures died, I lost fast.
G2: Side out removals and disrupts, side in 14 cards. Very difficult game, opponent draw very bad and i flooded, but the big creatures and bob made me win
G3: I win very quickly, creatures fast, decay and surgical helped a lot
Round 4: BW Tokens (terrible match x2) 2x0
G1: This opponent used many creatures(like de BW Guy, Brimaz), great for me! Spot removals, Goyf and Bob to victory!
G2: Side out removals and disrupts, side in 14 cards. Slow game, gideon gave a lot of work, but Pulse made the difference and goyf / ooze did the job
Round 5: Eldrazi Tron 0x2
G1: I solved many problems (6-7 big creatures) and only draw lands, one last Smasher solved the game
G2: Again, I solved a lot of threats, but a ballista killed my Goblin and Ooze and took smasher on the top deck
Considerations:
I do not know if Goblin was as efficient as i imagined
I need Thrun and a second Virulent Plague
Maybe a 4th Fulminator
My List:
http://deck.tk/033V4CKF
My Possible changes:
MD:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 CB(to save 1 card in SB)
SB
-1 CB
+1 Thrun
-1 Goblin
+ 1 Fulminator or Virulent Plague or EE
Suggestions?
@slaiter, Illness in the Ranks is also effective against tokens (not against Gideon tokens though) and cheaper, but Engineered Explosives is just the best thing ever against tokens. Just an idea. Also, I agree with LEH, boarding out discard spells and Maelstrom Pulse against them seems a little suspect. Abrupt Decay is really good against their enchantments as well. A resolved fatty that keeps bashing on the walls usually folds them up if they don't have the resources to keep making more
Glissa is just a pet card - fun for FNM. Don't get excited about the shout out to her, folks.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I did not explain well when I said that I removed all the spot removals (I removed push and terminate)
Clarifying my side plan against Tokens:
OUT:
- 4 Fatal Push
- 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
- 1 Liliana of the Veil
- 3 Terminate
- 3 Thoughtseize
IN:
+ 2 Kitchen Finks
+ 3 Fulminator Mage
+ 1 Damnation
+ 1 Nihil Spellbomb
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Virulent Plague
+ 2 Collective Brutality
+ 1 Flaying Tendrils
+ 1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
I love Pulse, if possible I would use 4, lol
I agree on Anger is much better and completely forgot! I'll change it today!
Glissa is very funny, but I will not do that test, lol.
And about the MD, i need Lavamancer? If i trade Lavamancer for 1 CB MD for a new 1 space in SB, it's good?
Has anyone else tested the Goblin yet?