Hand #1: Might seem tempting due to bolt, as bolt always lets you feel safe in a way against a creature based deck. But basically all of you decided to mull this hand. I can only agree. You have to look at the whole hand. With this hand, you play your untapped land, maybe bolt their Steel Overseer and then what? You have to play Ravine tapped and basically get time walked, you are very far behind at this point if the opponent follows up with a plating + equip for example. I personally don't think Ooze is that abysmal in that matchup, as it can go out of hand when ooze gets huge and gains you a bunch of precious lifepoints. But 2 Ooze and especially on the draw is definitely too slow. 1 would be acceptable if you have a couple of removal spells, but not like this. So I think we can agree that you have to mull this hand.
Hand #2: This hand should seem like a slow one, where you basically hope for resolving a LoTV. I think this hand is a ok in this meta, LoTV alone can win games occasionally. Since you are on the play, I think you should keep that hand, due to TS. If you were on the draw, it gets more tricky. This hand can sometimes be to slow in that case. Generally speaking though, this hand is a keep in my opinion. Seems we all agree on that one as well.
Hand #3: Now this hand seems to be interesting. The opinions are mixed here. Lets look at the basic information we have: We are up against Tron, arguably the worst matchup we have, and are in g2, already down a game. So, you gotta ask yourself: can you afford to keep mediocre hands in a matchup where you are down a game and are unfavoured generally? This hand may seem ok to buy you time, since you got 2 IOKs. LoTV may also seem nice, but just think about the amount of possibilites Tron has to find their pieces. What if you open up with IOK and see a hand of: Stirrings, Map, Mine, Grove, Tower, Karn, Chromatic Sphere? You can discard map, but the opponent can stirrings regardless and maybe find the last tron piece, resulting in a turn 4 karn. Thats gg. I would maybe keep this hand if I had 2 TS instead of IOK! Why? Because I do think that taking their threats out of their hand is more sufficient than taking their searchers. They have much more redundancy in finding tron than in finding threats. Finding threats is still rather easy due to Stirrings, but it would be better at least. If you had at least one TS, you could discard map turn 1 (with IOK), then the opponents stirrings for a tron land (maybe) where you could follow up by TS the karn. Now he needs to draw into extra threats to kill you. Its still hard enough to keep such a hand, bc you have no threat. And thats basically the point. In this situation you cannot afford to draw out of it. You need a turn 2 threat and ideally a turn 1 TS. And since you are down one game I think you have to mull this hand.
Hand #4: As other mentioned, this is an absolute fine hand to keep. You got things to do with the lands you have, and if you draw your thrid land (which is very likely) then your hand can turn into pure business. And that even if you are on the draw. I think having the extra draw step actually helps keeping it, since you have a higher chance drawing the third land. With the 3rd land this hand is really good in my opinion. Maybe not the best, but in the dark, solid.
Hand #5: I wanted to present a hand which is generally very keepable, but I build in the impossibility to deal with an early Tasigur or Gurmag. That might actually be a problem. Keep in mind that you are on the draw. Maybe you draw into terminate or LoTV to deal with delve creatures. But I think if you keep this then the main risk is that you could loose to early Tasigur or Gurmag. And since you are on the draw, a turn 2 tasigur does not seem that preventable. If the opponent opens up with discard, he sees that we are lacking the interaction here and will definitely go for an early delve threat if the opponent can. That being said I would still keep, like others also mentioned. But by looking at a hand like this you immediately need to see that you are lacking the hard removal for delve creatures. Thats you main and most important problem with the hand. Everything else seems good, you good a threat, you got interaction and grindy cards ala KCommand. So if you keep this hand, you need to be aware that you are looking for hard removal going onward.
Seems that most of us agree on the hands, which is great. Do you think this is helpful for beginners or to discuss generally? I am inclined to go on gathering scenarios like this to discuss about keep or mull decisions, might be interested for one or two here.
Let me know what you guys think.
I am a beginner and I approve this type of content/discussion.
I definitely love playing Jund and hope to improve as a player to actually do well, Jund so far seems like a deck thats not hard to play but hard to master.
I see a lot of The Rock / Junk listes playing 1 or 2 slots of the human shaman and she makes great CA.
I understand that her CCM3 might be dangerous with Dark Confidant regarding or other slots (LotV, Maelstrom Pulse and K. command), but bring back a discard card against combo, a creature against Midrange / control, a removal against creatures deck, etc. seems attractive.
I see a lot of The Rock / Junk listes playing 1 or 2 slots of the human shaman and she makes great CA.
I understand that her CCM3 might be dangerous with Dark Confidant regarding or other slots (LotV, Maelstrom Pulse and K. command), but bring back a discard card against combo, a creature against Midrange / control, a removal against creatures deck, etc. seems attractive.
What are your thoughts about it ?
Gus
I don't think she's straight gas enough for this shell, personally. at 3 CMC we could be playing Tracker for a much higher ceiling - significantly better threat, a lot more potential CA. Ewit allows us to select what we get back, of course, but the card we want has to already be in the GY - it doesn't help us dig for answers. I think her biggest appeal is Lili recursion, but again, when evaluating each individual card along the curve I don't see her being more valuable than other options at 3. The 2nd Kcomm is about the only card I'd consider cutting for her, but it seems more flexible in most situations.
I suppose she's better in certain postboard matches where a single piece of hate really hoses opp's strategy (i.e. grafdigger's vs. dredge/shoal), but my knee-jerk armchair appraisal of the card leaves me feeling like she's too narrow in application vs. our other 3-drops. She's also a very overcosted threat vs. RiP effects, which are common tech against us.
All that being said, I HAVEN'T tried her in Jund so maybe someone with actual experience can speak.
Lately I have considered dropping Grixis Control as I'm a bit bored of playing it since the banning of twin and I was considering either playing Jund again or buying pieces for Bant Knightfall. I was hoping someone would be willing to help me build a decent list for Jund again as i'm really outdated on playing it.
My current meta is something like this 1 RG Tron, 1 Dredge, 1 Beltcher, 1 Sun and Moon, 1 Skred, 1 Gifts Storm, 2-3 Delver Deck (colors change to often to keep track of), 1 Naya Zoo, 2 Soul Sister (one budget with a possible 3rd being made), 1 Martyr Proc Control, 1 Blue based Control Deck (guy is like me and can play all colors of blue control), 1 Esper Control (either draw go control or more midrange control depends on his mood), 1 WB Token (Even Deck only modifications are IoK and Thoughtseize), 1 WB Token (unmodified), 1 Mardu Control (plays a lot of tokens), 1 Mono Red Goblins, 1 Vampire player (Has Rakdos, Mono Black and Mono Red vampires variants), 1 U-Tron, 2 BUrn decks (boros and Naya variants). Are all the current meta at my LGS and I was hoping for someone to give me some advice
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Fatal push keeps aggro under control. Also kills Colonnade in the control decks.
Lightning Bolt compliments Push, but can help polish off Planeswalkers, or if you're really lucky kill an opponent.
Terminate kills a lot of scary things no questions asked. In some matchups it's basically a two mana Fatal push, but that's OK.
Abrupt Decay doesn't seem to do much here outside of creature removal. Hits Blood Moon, and maybe the rare Expedition Map.
Maelstrom Pulse is valuable because it kills Planeswalkers in Tron, Batterskull in Control, and multiple pesky tokens.
Kolaghan's Command helps grind against control decks, and is just almost always good 2 for 1 value.
I will gather more hands like these which I find interesting and will post them to discuss them.
Hi,@FlyingDelver! I feel I need to congratulate you for this. It's a briliant idea!
Could you do it on a fixed scedule? Maybe as a poll? Let's say "Monday's keep or mull" and the discussion could come at the end of the week? Maybe a similar "How to sideboard discussion" or even Keep or mull after sideboard.
Anyways, congratulations again! You're doing a great job!
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GBR May the Jund'ish side of the Force be with you! GBR
I will gather more hands like these which I find interesting and will post them to discuss them.
Hi,@FlyingDelver! I feel I need to congratulate you for this. It's a briliant idea!
Could you do it on a fixed scedule? Maybe as a poll? Let's say "Monday's keep or mull" and the discussion could come at the end of the week? Maybe a similar "How to sideboard discussion" or even Keep or mull after sideboard.
Anyways, congratulations again! You're doing a great job!
If i find the time, i will happily do this, sounds like a good idea! Am a little bit busy this weekend, will have a look at it asap.
Fatal push keeps aggro under control. Also kills Colonnade in the control decks.
Lightning Bolt compliments Push, but can help polish off Planeswalkers, or if you're really lucky kill an opponent.
Terminate kills a lot of scary things no questions asked. In some matchups it's basically a two mana Fatal push, but that's OK.
Abrupt Decay doesn't seem to do much here outside of creature removal. Hits Blood Moon, and maybe the rare Expedition Map.
Maelstrom Pulse is valuable because it kills Planeswalkers in Tron, Batterskull in Control, and multiple pesky tokens.
Kolaghan's Command helps grind against control decks, and is just almost always good 2 for 1 value.
Just my observations.
Is K-command really not that good in jund? Honestly i thought it would of been higher.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
The meta there seems to be a lot of CoCo/Counters Company/Abzan Exalted, with a mix of Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Gx Tron, and a few people running Bogles, Gifts Storm, and BUG Death's Shadow. If I can come out strong then I usually can stabilize and start to bash, but more often than not they'll absorb the Thoughtseize and just dump out dudes G1. G2 I never get my board wipes or they T0 a Leyline of Sanctity which I honestly don't know what to do about.
I also feel like I never draw what I want or need. Should I mull a hand that doesn't have any opening discard on G1? I also feel like I don't have enough creatures, but that's coming from me running maindeck 3x Kitchen Finks for the longest time, but the majority of the time I feel like I'm animating Treetop Village or Raging Ravine to swing for damage.
Another big roadblock aside from the Leylines dropping are Pithing Needles naming Liliana of the Veil on G2/G3. Should I board in Ancient Grudges if I know they run it in their board?
Thanks for the help. For the longest time I'd only ever piloted against RG Tron so I'm still learning matchups.
Fatal push keeps aggro under control. Also kills Colonnade in the control decks.
Lightning Bolt compliments Push, but can help polish off Planeswalkers, or if you're really lucky kill an opponent.
Terminate kills a lot of scary things no questions asked. In some matchups it's basically a two mana Fatal push, but that's OK.
Abrupt Decay doesn't seem to do much here outside of creature removal. Hits Blood Moon, and maybe the rare Expedition Map.
Maelstrom Pulse is valuable because it kills Planeswalkers in Tron, Batterskull in Control, and multiple pesky tokens.
Kolaghan's Command helps grind against control decks, and is just almost always good 2 for 1 value.
Just my observations.
Is K-command really not that good in jund? Honestly i thought it would of been higher.
I got to Top 8 with this list at a 30 ppl PPTQ last Saturday.
I want to increase the win rate with Eltrazi tron, titan shift etc, so I added blue for a try. I know the mana base is greedy and can fold to burn more easily but still give it a shot.
Didn't have much time to test it, but I think it has some potential after the games.
Round 1 VS BW Eltrazi tax 2-0
Match 1 : Opponent forgot the push can kill TKS so he made a mistake, which cost him the game.
Match 2 : He opens with both Leonin Arbiter, PTE my bob and ghost quarter my green source. But I landed a tarmo to and cast liliana to control the board. We stall for a while and my bob draw me many enough removal to kill his 3 TKS and hit for the win.
Round 2 VS Restore Balance 2-1
Match 1 : He cascade into restore balance and cast Narihi for the win.
Match 2 and 3 : Opponent mulls to 5 both games and I open with discard and Bob. I found a tarmo and tasigur to finished him quickly.
Round 3 VS Bant Company 2-0
Match 1 : He had a good hand but I stabilized with kalitas, he miss counted and attack me to 1 life.
Match 2 : He missed W source for several turns, so I beat him with tarmo and Tasigur.
ID in round 4 and 5.
Top 8 VS Elves 0-2
Match 1 : I got stuck on land and got beaten very easily.
Match 2 : I killed so many elves by Decay*2, CB*2, EE*1, snap*2 but still can't find a threat and my opponent drew very well.
Wizards just announced that the "Planeswalker rule" has changed and we can have 2 of the same planeswalker as long as they have different names. Does this mean we jam 1-2 Liliana, The Last Hope in the main? Having BOTH LOTV and Last Hope out at the same time seems pretty good.
I think that it's an incredibly strong argument for running more LotLH. I could see her competing with K-Command or one of the > 2 CMC creatures for a couple slots. Being able to run more LotLH also makes Lingering Souls less of a problem in the Abzan matchup.
I think that it's an incredibly strong argument for running more LotLH. I could see her competing with K-Command or one of the > 2 CMC creatures for a couple slots. Being able to run more LotLH also makes Lingering Souls less of a problem in the Abzan matchup.
Where do you plan to start testing? I'm thinking of starting with a 3/2 split of LotV to LotLH. Although I am loathe to go below 4 LotV, I also don't want to try and jam 4/2. That seems overkill.
I would probably start with a creature suite of 4 Goyf/ 4 Confidant/ 2 Ooze/ 2 Huntmaster and 1 K-Command to make room for a 4/2 split of Veil/Last Hope. I would also adjust the mana base to include 4 Raging Ravine and a single Twilight Mire. I could see the number of Last Hope being more of a meta call though, so maybe 4/1 with a second Last Hope in the sideboard is correct. If I went with the 4/1 split I'd probably add a Tireless Tracker instead of the second Lily.
I am a beginner and I approve this type of content/discussion.
I definitely love playing Jund and hope to improve as a player to actually do well, Jund so far seems like a deck thats not hard to play but hard to master.
I see a lot of The Rock / Junk listes playing 1 or 2 slots of the human shaman and she makes great CA.
I understand that her CCM3 might be dangerous with Dark Confidant regarding or other slots (LotV, Maelstrom Pulse and K. command), but bring back a discard card against combo, a creature against Midrange / control, a removal against creatures deck, etc. seems attractive.
What are your thoughts about it ?
Gus
I don't think she's straight gas enough for this shell, personally. at 3 CMC we could be playing Tracker for a much higher ceiling - significantly better threat, a lot more potential CA. Ewit allows us to select what we get back, of course, but the card we want has to already be in the GY - it doesn't help us dig for answers. I think her biggest appeal is Lili recursion, but again, when evaluating each individual card along the curve I don't see her being more valuable than other options at 3. The 2nd Kcomm is about the only card I'd consider cutting for her, but it seems more flexible in most situations.
I suppose she's better in certain postboard matches where a single piece of hate really hoses opp's strategy (i.e. grafdigger's vs. dredge/shoal), but my knee-jerk armchair appraisal of the card leaves me feeling like she's too narrow in application vs. our other 3-drops. She's also a very overcosted threat vs. RiP effects, which are common tech against us.
All that being said, I HAVEN'T tried her in Jund so maybe someone with actual experience can speak.
My current meta is something like this 1 RG Tron, 1 Dredge, 1 Beltcher, 1 Sun and Moon, 1 Skred, 1 Gifts Storm, 2-3 Delver Deck (colors change to often to keep track of), 1 Naya Zoo, 2 Soul Sister (one budget with a possible 3rd being made), 1 Martyr Proc Control, 1 Blue based Control Deck (guy is like me and can play all colors of blue control), 1 Esper Control (either draw go control or more midrange control depends on his mood), 1 WB Token (Even Deck only modifications are IoK and Thoughtseize), 1 WB Token (unmodified), 1 Mardu Control (plays a lot of tokens), 1 Mono Red Goblins, 1 Vampire player (Has Rakdos, Mono Black and Mono Red vampires variants), 1 U-Tron, 2 BUrn decks (boros and Naya variants). Are all the current meta at my LGS and I was hoping for someone to give me some advice
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
4 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command
Explanation:
Fatal push keeps aggro under control. Also kills Colonnade in the control decks.
Lightning Bolt compliments Push, but can help polish off Planeswalkers, or if you're really lucky kill an opponent.
Terminate kills a lot of scary things no questions asked. In some matchups it's basically a two mana Fatal push, but that's OK.
Abrupt Decay doesn't seem to do much here outside of creature removal. Hits Blood Moon, and maybe the rare Expedition Map.
Maelstrom Pulse is valuable because it kills Planeswalkers in Tron, Batterskull in Control, and multiple pesky tokens.
Kolaghan's Command helps grind against control decks, and is just almost always good 2 for 1 value.
Just my observations.
Hi,@FlyingDelver! I feel I need to congratulate you for this. It's a briliant idea!
Could you do it on a fixed scedule? Maybe as a poll? Let's say "Monday's keep or mull" and the discussion could come at the end of the week? Maybe a similar "How to sideboard discussion" or even Keep or mull after sideboard.
Anyways, congratulations again! You're doing a great job!
If i find the time, i will happily do this, sounds like a good idea! Am a little bit busy this weekend, will have a look at it asap.
Is K-command really not that good in jund? Honestly i thought it would of been higher.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Spells: 18
4x Fatal Push
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Terminate
1x Kolaghan’s Command
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands: 24
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Twilight Mire
3x Raging Ravine
2x Treetop Village
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Damnation
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
The meta there seems to be a lot of CoCo/Counters Company/Abzan Exalted, with a mix of Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Gx Tron, and a few people running Bogles, Gifts Storm, and BUG Death's Shadow. If I can come out strong then I usually can stabilize and start to bash, but more often than not they'll absorb the Thoughtseize and just dump out dudes G1. G2 I never get my board wipes or they T0 a Leyline of Sanctity which I honestly don't know what to do about.
I also feel like I never draw what I want or need. Should I mull a hand that doesn't have any opening discard on G1? I also feel like I don't have enough creatures, but that's coming from me running maindeck 3x Kitchen Finks for the longest time, but the majority of the time I feel like I'm animating Treetop Village or Raging Ravine to swing for damage.
Another big roadblock aside from the Leylines dropping are Pithing Needles naming Liliana of the Veil on G2/G3. Should I board in Ancient Grudges if I know they run it in their board?
Thanks for the help. For the longest time I'd only ever piloted against RG Tron so I'm still learning matchups.
This guy thinks it is...
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/742547#paper
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I want to increase the win rate with Eltrazi tron, titan shift etc, so I added blue for a try. I know the mana base is greedy and can fold to burn more easily but still give it a shot.
Didn't have much time to test it, but I think it has some potential after the games.
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells: 17
3x Fatal Push
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Terminate
2x Kolaghan’s Command
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Liliana of the Veil
Lands: 24
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
3x Blooming Marsh
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Raging Ravine
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Collective Brutality
2x Negate
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Damnation
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
Round 1 VS BW Eltrazi tax 2-0
Match 1 : Opponent forgot the push can kill TKS so he made a mistake, which cost him the game.
Match 2 : He opens with both Leonin Arbiter, PTE my bob and ghost quarter my green source. But I landed a tarmo to and cast liliana to control the board. We stall for a while and my bob draw me many enough removal to kill his 3 TKS and hit for the win.
Round 2 VS Restore Balance 2-1
Match 1 : He cascade into restore balance and cast Narihi for the win.
Match 2 and 3 : Opponent mulls to 5 both games and I open with discard and Bob. I found a tarmo and tasigur to finished him quickly.
Round 3 VS Bant Company 2-0
Match 1 : He had a good hand but I stabilized with kalitas, he miss counted and attack me to 1 life.
Match 2 : He missed W source for several turns, so I beat him with tarmo and Tasigur.
ID in round 4 and 5.
Top 8 VS Elves 0-2
Match 1 : I got stuck on land and got beaten very easily.
Match 2 : I killed so many elves by Decay*2, CB*2, EE*1, snap*2 but still can't find a threat and my opponent drew very well.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Where do you plan to start testing? I'm thinking of starting with a 3/2 split of LotV to LotLH. Although I am loathe to go below 4 LotV, I also don't want to try and jam 4/2. That seems overkill.
question is do we move them to the main or keep them in the side with the new ruling