I will proxy a couple of decks, included E-tron and Jund, and see what fits my playstyle the most. I appreciate everyone's advice regarding this matter. I will no longer waste anyone's time discussing this topic on this particular thread. But, as I mentioned earlier, I really appreciate the advice.
Perhaps give Junk a try as well, it's slower than Jund but grinds better and holds off Shadow decks for days. White gives you access to Path and other strong sideboard pieces. Aside from that, you can still run most of the big Jund staples (Confidant is not as great there but some people still run 2 copies). Tron matchup is even worse though.
I am currently reworking the primer to update the sideboard guide and deckbuilding category.
What do you guys think about the uw control and eldrazi tron matchup? What to board out and in?
I am currently reworking the primer to update the sideboard guide and deckbuilding category.
What do you guys think about the uw control and eldrazi tron matchup? What to board out and in?
UW CONTROL
-2 lightning bolt -2 fatal push (or abrupt decay, depends on if he plays Spreading's seas, Detention Sphere, new Gideon...) -1 terminate
+4 fulminator mage +1 surgical extraction
Thoughts on Grim Flayer? I'm tempted to try a 3 Confidant 2 Flayer split with an aggressive mainboard and see how it ends up. I feel the only advantage Jund has over Abzan right now is how much more oppressive its starts can be with Bolt, Kolaghan's and Lavamancer.
Thoughts on Grim Flayer? I'm tempted to try a 3 Confidant 2 Flayer split with an aggressive mainboard and see how it ends up. I feel the only advantage Jund has over Abzan right now is how much more oppressive its starts can be with Bolt, Kolaghan's and Lavamancer.
This has been discussed to death. It's easier for Abzan to reach delirium and the Souls synergy is what makes Flayer good in that shell. They don't want Confidant, we don't want Flayer.
The 'advantages' Jund has over Abzan are Bolt, KCommand, Lavamancer, Huntmaster, Anger, Grudge and Raging Ravine.
It's been the "right move" since Burn went away again.
Oh yeah? Maybe you could have informed everyone about this because I don't see a single tournament finish with that particular split anywhere.
Well I face enough decks in which Inquisition is either worthless or doesn't get what I want. So I changed my setup especially since Burn died down. If you're just playing what you see online, how is saying anything here going to change? Just to give you something else to criticize? I change my list according to the metagame I want to deal with (about every other week).
It's been the "right move" since Burn went away again.
4 thoughtseizes and 2 IOK's sound like an atrocious idea; that makes Bob so much worse on top of things.
Burn hasn't gone away, it's still tier 1 according to every meta report I've seen. Affinity is also among the top 2 decks played now, do you really want 4x thoughtseizes against them?
Jund is better off playing a 4th terminate and 2nd pulse than playing 4x thoughtseizes, the deck really wants to crack fetches comfortably and play Dark Confidant.
I am currently reworking the primer to update the sideboard guide and deckbuilding category.
What do you guys think about the uw control and eldrazi tron matchup? What to board out and in?
UW CONTROL
-2 lightning bolt -2 fatal push (or abrupt decay, depends on if he plays Spreading's seas, Detention Sphere, new Gideon...) -1 terminate
+4 fulminator mage +1 surgical extraction
Obv is my opinion.
I wouldn't bring in surgical against either of those decks. E-Tron comes down to a lot of topdecking, it's going to look bad if they already have access to 5 or 6 mana and you think you're pulling a big one over them by surgical extracting a Tower. I'm honestly not even happy bringing in Fulminator mages against E-Tron, since they have Urza lands or temples to pull the mana they need.
Your UW Control seems correct, it really depends if they're playing the gideon, detention spheres, etc. I've been shaving the terminates instead since they're not really playing anything push does't hit. Bolt sucks. What are you bringing in the damnation for? Are they playing tokens or something?
And what are you surgical extracting? I see no real great targets.
Surgical extraction is one of the hugest traps in modern, and people need to stop bringing it in like a "gotcha" card. Leave the card alone unless you're playing a graveyard dependent deck or a spell based combo deck.
Someone played surgical on me a few weeks ago as Grixis Shadow, and this week against my E-Tron, they were both poor moves and they lost both those games.
It's been the "right move" since Burn went away again.
4 thoughtseizes and 2 IOK's sound like an atrocious idea; that makes Bob so much worse on top of things.
Burn hasn't gone away, it's still tier 1 according to every meta report I've seen. Affinity is also among the top 2 decks played now, do you really want 4x thoughtseizes against them?
Jund is better off playing a 4th terminate and 2nd pulse than playing 4x thoughtseizes, the deck really wants to crack fetches comfortably and play Dark Confidant.
Except most of my metagame is filled with EldraziTron, UW/x control and Death's Shadow as far as tier 1 decks go. There's also a resurgence of Collected Company decks. There's other random stuff too, but Inquisition against those first, two decks is pretty terrible. I mean I can get cards off my opponent with them, but more than likely, they won't be the cards I want to get. Against most CoCo decks, Inquisition is better but it still doesn't get the card I generally want to hit.
As far as Burn goes, I've seen a massive drop in the number of times I've faced it online and locally. Locally, I know why they disappeared, but I'm not sure why I don't run into it online. I'm more likely to face other aggro decks, such as Eldrazi aggro, Death's Shadow and Zoo decks. So why should I gear my main deck to beat Burn when I'm less likely to see it? I rarely lose to them after going to sideboard so why would I not gear my deck for match ups that aren't as good, especially with regard to Eldrazi aggro? I would take Thoughtseize'ing a a threat all day rather than hope I have the correct spell to deal with a planeswalker or a live threat while hoping Thought-Knot Seer doesn't strip me of my removal anyway.
Against Affinity? Nope, I don't want either of them. Yes, Thoughtseize is the worse of the two cards. Unless you're keeping either of them in the main deck after game 1, then I really don't understand why this matters. Discard is largely irrelevant past turn 2 so I really don't get why either of them matters.
I wouldn't bring in surgical against either of those decks. E-Tron comes down to a lot of topdecking, it's going to look bad if they already have access to 5 or 6 mana and you think you're pulling a big one over them by surgical extracting a Tower. I'm honestly not even happy bringing in Fulminator mages against E-Tron, since they have Urza lands or temples to pull the mana they need.
Your UW Control seems correct, it really depends if they're playing the gideon, detention spheres, etc. I've been shaving the terminates instead since they're not really playing anything push does't hit. Bolt sucks. What are you bringing in the damnation for? Are they playing tokens or something?
And what are you surgical extracting? I see no real great targets.
Surgical extraction is one of the hugest traps in modern, and people need to stop bringing it in like a "gotcha" card. Leave the card alone unless you're playing a graveyard dependent deck or a spell based combo deck.
Someone played surgical on me a few weeks ago as Grixis Shadow, and this week against my E-Tron, they were both poor moves and they lost both those games.
Against Eldrazi Tron Fulminator Mage is the best choice you can side in....How you can manage to win against them ?!
Removal + 2 FMages are very strong. All matches I've won against ETron was similar: removal + FMages and sometimes a surgical against lands or creatures as TSeer or RSmasher (I targeted them because he had another one in his hand).
Against UW Control, Surgical is very strong against Snapcaster Mage, Path To Exile, Cryptic Command....in all matches I've made against any Control, the role of SExtraction was for: discard spell to see 2 same cards in his hand -> discard + surgical....spell targeted by Snapcaster mage on the stack...or removed Snapcaster Mage + Surgical on it. In addition FMages in this matchup are very very very very strong.
I can agree that surgical is fine for snapcaster, but for everything else surgicals will not hit my mainboard in this matchup. I agree with spsiegel in that regard.
So, I've been thinking about getting into Jund (or Abzan maybe) despite it falling out of meta popularity. I have a few questions.
1. Why is it said that Jund has a bad tron match up? You guys have Fulminator Mage and Crumble to Dust... is that not enough?
2. Is there a hard fast rule to keeping opening hands? From what I've seen playing against the deck I'm sure you want 3-4x lands, either a Thoughtseize/IoK, and some sort of turn two (Bob or Goyf) or turn three action (Lilly). What's and ideal turn sequence and what needs to be present in order to keep a hand? Obviously the match up will impact this to a degree but in general (say against a gold fish) what are you looking for?
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
So, I've been thinking about getting into Jund (or Abzan maybe) despite it falling out of meta popularity. I have a few questions.
1. Why is it said that Jund has a bad tron match up? You guys have Fulminator Mage and Crumble to Dust... is that not enough?
2. Is there a hard fast rule to keeping opening hands? From what I've seen playing against the deck I'm sure you want 3-4x lands, either a Thoughtseize/IoK, and some sort of turn two (Bob or Goyf) or turn three action (Lilly). What's and ideal turn sequence and what needs to be present in order to keep a hand? Obviously the match up will impact this to a degree but in general (say against a gold fish) what are you looking for?
1. You should play tron and then you would understand. But just think about it: tron has multiple ways to find their tron pieces, especially through stirrings and map/sylvan scrying. How do the odds stay against our 3-max 4 fulminators? If we destroy one piece, they just find another one.
And now regarding crumble: since they consistantly find their pieces, they have all time they need in order to find tron and slam down karn or ugin before we even cast crumble. Actually, sometimes this is also true for fulminator itself. And if they have a threat on the board, dmg is already done.
2.generally, dont keep 1 land hands and 7 hand lands. 6 land hands are also often mulligans but for the rest it kinda depends. The ideal sequence is turn 1 discard followed by goyf/bob and then lili. You always seek interaction with the opponent, thats what its all about. Depending on the matchup some cards will be more dead than other what you have to consider when deciding whether to mulligan or not.
So, I've been thinking about getting into Jund (or Abzan maybe) despite it falling out of meta popularity. I have a few questions.
1. Why is it said that Jund has a bad tron match up? You guys have Fulminator Mage and Crumble to Dust... is that not enough?
2. Is there a hard fast rule to keeping opening hands? From what I've seen playing against the deck I'm sure you want 3-4x lands, either a Thoughtseize/IoK, and some sort of turn two (Bob or Goyf) or turn three action (Lilly). What's and ideal turn sequence and what needs to be present in order to keep a hand? Obviously the match up will impact this to a degree but in general (say against a gold fish) what are you looking for?
Game 1: 70-80% of the time he wins.
Game 2: you start and FMages are MVP. You can win this game.
Game 3: he starts and if he has tron pieces on 3th turn we have lost. This is the problem, FMage should enter too late, because he starts. So, if he hasn't tron pieces on 3th turn we have a possibility to win....if we have FMage in hand.
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Perhaps give Junk a try as well, it's slower than Jund but grinds better and holds off Shadow decks for days. White gives you access to Path and other strong sideboard pieces. Aside from that, you can still run most of the big Jund staples (Confidant is not as great there but some people still run 2 copies). Tron matchup is even worse though.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
What do you guys think about the uw control and eldrazi tron matchup? What to board out and in?
With my list:
ELDRATRON
-2 lightning bolt -2 abrupt decay -2 fatal push
+4 fulminator mage +1 surgical extraction +1 damnation
UW CONTROL
-2 lightning bolt -2 fatal push (or abrupt decay, depends on if he plays Spreading's seas, Detention Sphere, new Gideon...) -1 terminate
+4 fulminator mage +1 surgical extraction
Obv is my opinion.
This has been discussed to death. It's easier for Abzan to reach delirium and the Souls synergy is what makes Flayer good in that shell. They don't want Confidant, we don't want Flayer.
The 'advantages' Jund has over Abzan are Bolt, KCommand, Lavamancer, Huntmaster, Anger, Grudge and Raging Ravine.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35557_Abzan-Traverse-For-SCG-Syracuse.html
That might be the right move in jund as well, with the rise of E-tron, titanshift, Grixis (delve-creatures)and UW/UWR Control
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Oh yeah? Maybe you could have informed everyone about this because I don't see a single tournament finish with that particular split anywhere.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Well I face enough decks in which Inquisition is either worthless or doesn't get what I want. So I changed my setup especially since Burn died down. If you're just playing what you see online, how is saying anything here going to change? Just to give you something else to criticize? I change my list according to the metagame I want to deal with (about every other week).
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
4 thoughtseizes and 2 IOK's sound like an atrocious idea; that makes Bob so much worse on top of things.
Burn hasn't gone away, it's still tier 1 according to every meta report I've seen. Affinity is also among the top 2 decks played now, do you really want 4x thoughtseizes against them?
Jund is better off playing a 4th terminate and 2nd pulse than playing 4x thoughtseizes, the deck really wants to crack fetches comfortably and play Dark Confidant.
I wouldn't bring in surgical against either of those decks. E-Tron comes down to a lot of topdecking, it's going to look bad if they already have access to 5 or 6 mana and you think you're pulling a big one over them by surgical extracting a Tower. I'm honestly not even happy bringing in Fulminator mages against E-Tron, since they have Urza lands or temples to pull the mana they need.
Your UW Control seems correct, it really depends if they're playing the gideon, detention spheres, etc. I've been shaving the terminates instead since they're not really playing anything push does't hit. Bolt sucks. What are you bringing in the damnation for? Are they playing tokens or something?
And what are you surgical extracting? I see no real great targets.
Surgical extraction is one of the hugest traps in modern, and people need to stop bringing it in like a "gotcha" card. Leave the card alone unless you're playing a graveyard dependent deck or a spell based combo deck.
Someone played surgical on me a few weeks ago as Grixis Shadow, and this week against my E-Tron, they were both poor moves and they lost both those games.
Timely Reinforcements, Gideon AOZ, Big Elspeth... but that doesn't warrant a Damnation in my book.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Except most of my metagame is filled with EldraziTron, UW/x control and Death's Shadow as far as tier 1 decks go. There's also a resurgence of Collected Company decks. There's other random stuff too, but Inquisition against those first, two decks is pretty terrible. I mean I can get cards off my opponent with them, but more than likely, they won't be the cards I want to get. Against most CoCo decks, Inquisition is better but it still doesn't get the card I generally want to hit.
As far as Burn goes, I've seen a massive drop in the number of times I've faced it online and locally. Locally, I know why they disappeared, but I'm not sure why I don't run into it online. I'm more likely to face other aggro decks, such as Eldrazi aggro, Death's Shadow and Zoo decks. So why should I gear my main deck to beat Burn when I'm less likely to see it? I rarely lose to them after going to sideboard so why would I not gear my deck for match ups that aren't as good, especially with regard to Eldrazi aggro? I would take Thoughtseize'ing a a threat all day rather than hope I have the correct spell to deal with a planeswalker or a live threat while hoping Thought-Knot Seer doesn't strip me of my removal anyway.
Against Affinity? Nope, I don't want either of them. Yes, Thoughtseize is the worse of the two cards. Unless you're keeping either of them in the main deck after game 1, then I really don't understand why this matters. Discard is largely irrelevant past turn 2 so I really don't get why either of them matters.
Against Eldrazi Tron Fulminator Mage is the best choice you can side in....How you can manage to win against them ?!
Removal + 2 FMages are very strong. All matches I've won against ETron was similar: removal + FMages and sometimes a surgical against lands or creatures as TSeer or RSmasher (I targeted them because he had another one in his hand).
Against UW Control, Surgical is very strong against Snapcaster Mage, Path To Exile, Cryptic Command....in all matches I've made against any Control, the role of SExtraction was for: discard spell to see 2 same cards in his hand -> discard + surgical....spell targeted by Snapcaster mage on the stack...or removed Snapcaster Mage + Surgical on it. In addition FMages in this matchup are very very very very strong.
1. Why is it said that Jund has a bad tron match up? You guys have Fulminator Mage and Crumble to Dust... is that not enough?
2. Is there a hard fast rule to keeping opening hands? From what I've seen playing against the deck I'm sure you want 3-4x lands, either a Thoughtseize/IoK, and some sort of turn two (Bob or Goyf) or turn three action (Lilly). What's and ideal turn sequence and what needs to be present in order to keep a hand? Obviously the match up will impact this to a degree but in general (say against a gold fish) what are you looking for?
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
1. You should play tron and then you would understand. But just think about it: tron has multiple ways to find their tron pieces, especially through stirrings and map/sylvan scrying. How do the odds stay against our 3-max 4 fulminators? If we destroy one piece, they just find another one.
And now regarding crumble: since they consistantly find their pieces, they have all time they need in order to find tron and slam down karn or ugin before we even cast crumble. Actually, sometimes this is also true for fulminator itself. And if they have a threat on the board, dmg is already done.
2.generally, dont keep 1 land hands and 7 hand lands. 6 land hands are also often mulligans but for the rest it kinda depends. The ideal sequence is turn 1 discard followed by goyf/bob and then lili. You always seek interaction with the opponent, thats what its all about. Depending on the matchup some cards will be more dead than other what you have to consider when deciding whether to mulligan or not.
Game 1: 70-80% of the time he wins.
Game 2: you start and FMages are MVP. You can win this game.
Game 3: he starts and if he has tron pieces on 3th turn we have lost. This is the problem, FMage should enter too late, because he starts. So, if he hasn't tron pieces on 3th turn we have a possibility to win....if we have FMage in hand.