What are some cards that are really hard for Abzan to beat? I'm expecting a lot of it at my next event. All that comes to mind is Thrun the Last Troll.
What are some cards that are really hard for Abzan to beat? I'm expecting a lot of it at my next event. All that comes to mind is Thrun the Last Troll.
Cards that grind, cards that hose LoTV, and cards that kill Lingering Souls.
If I expected a lot of Abzan I would be totally sleeving up Thundermaw. Sadly, nobody plays it at my store so it's not worth the slot.
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What are some cards that are really hard for Abzan to beat? I'm expecting a lot of it at my next event. All that comes to mind is Thrun the Last Troll.
Cards that grind, cards that hose LoTV, and cards that kill Lingering Souls.
If I expected a lot of Abzan I would be totally sleeving up Thundermaw. Sadly, nobody plays it at my store so it's not worth the slot.
My local Abzan players literally auto-scoop to Thundermaw. This last week I even had a guy do it when I played it on curve and the game was set to go long (I definitely felt like he had chances to draw into removal and stabilize but cest la vie).
I'm a big fan of running a single dragon in Jund. More is too greedy, gums up your hand, and makes Bobs even more dangerous, but one has always felt right. It does well against a lot of things. It's weird enough that people don't usually expect it, either, esp. G1. Unfortunately, our community is small and friendly enough that people have started recognizing me as "Hellkite Jund guy" so it's a little less spicy ;p
Edit: If you wanted to get REALLY creative you could opt for a Sakura-tribe Elder + Blood Moon package that plays really nicely with dragons. Probably would force you into taking out Bobs, which is bad, and make lili harder to hit on curve due to tweaking of the mana base.... But hey, if you're looking to mix it up and your meta would hate it, could be a fine experiment.
Edit 2: More anti-Abzan ideas could include SB tech like Night of Souls' Betrayal, or even Electrickery. Obviously GY hate is good here, too. Stormbreath Dragon doesn't wipe souls, but it still swings past them and is immune to path. Dreadbore can be flexible as a worse Terminate that can hit Lili as well. Side out discard - they could be running Smiters etc. and these games tend to get down to topdecks pretty frequently in my experience. Olivia Voldaren can break board stalls since their 4-drops typically out-perform ours (rhino vs. huntmaster, for instance). I haven't played with Kalitas but maybe he'd be solid? I still think the single best tech for Abzan that doesn't dilute normal Jund-yness is Thundermaw, though.
What are some cards that are really hard for Abzan to beat? I'm expecting a lot of it at my next event. All that comes to mind is Thrun the Last Troll.
Cards that grind, cards that hose LoTV, and cards that kill Lingering Souls.
If I expected a lot of Abzan I would be totally sleeving up Thundermaw. Sadly, nobody plays it at my store so it's not worth the slot.
My local Abzan players literally auto-scoop to Thundermaw. This last week I even had a guy do it when I played it on curve and the game was set to go long (I definitely felt like he had chances to draw into removal and stabilize but cest la vie).
I'm a big fan of running a single dragon in Jund. More is too greedy, gums up your hand, and makes Bobs even more dangerous, but one has always felt right. It does well against a lot of things. It's weird enough that people don't usually expect it, either, esp. G1. Unfortunately, our community is small and friendly enough that people have started recognizing me as "Hellkite Jund guy" so it's a little less spicy ;p
Edit: If you wanted to get REALLY creative you could opt for a Sakura-tribe Elder + Blood Moon package that plays really nicely with dragons. Probably would force you into taking out Bobs, which is bad, and make lili harder to hit on curve due to tweaking of the mana base.... But hey, if you're looking to mix it up and your meta would hate it, could be a fine experiment.
Edit 2: More anti-Abzan ideas could include SB tech like Night of Souls' Betrayal, or even Electrickery. Obviously GY hate is good here, too. Stormbreath Dragon doesn't wipe souls, but it still swings past them and is immune to path. Dreadbore can be flexible as a worse Terminate that can hit Lili as well. Side out discard - they could be running Smiters etc. and these games tend to get down to topdecks pretty frequently in my experience. Olivia Voldaren can break board stalls since their 4-drops typically out-perform ours (rhino vs. huntmaster, for instance). I haven't played with Kalitas but maybe he'd be solid? I still think the single best tech for Abzan that doesn't dilute normal Jund-yness is Thundermaw, though.
Wouldn't Thundermaw just get hit by Path? Or chump blocked by any Souls played after him? The rest are good ideas though
Also would bringing in Leyline of the Void be a good idea? It hinders the opponents Grim Flayers, Lingering Souls and Kitchen Finks, and gives you better control over Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Oozes.
Has anyone had any good results playing with a Glissa, the Traitor + Engineered Explosives package? I've noticed my local game store has become very wide. Elves, Merfolk, various Compnay decks, and my one-for-one removal just isn't cutting it. I could mainbord Anger, but I thought it might be a little more fun to go with the recurring EE gameplan. Havne't seen any decks doing it so perhaps there's a reason I'm just not seeing.
Or perhaps people just hate messing with what works.
I've tried it in Wilted Abzan and it was fun for sure. I had some interesting artifacts in the sideboard to go along with it, but I can't remember most of them. Now that Lightning Bolt is on the decline, I may try this in Jund myself. You know... for the shiggles. First strike + deathtouch seems pretty decent.
I ran it in a Rock deck for months. It was a hoot and occasionally the game winner.
1) Should I cut the Ravines and go for Blood Moon strategy? If so, how many basics does that configuration require?
2) What about the removal package? I know that nowadays FP is better than bolt. What about terminate/decay? How many copies of k-command would you recommend?
3) What should my SB look like? Should I MB some gy hate except scooze, like Spellbomb?
4) What 4drops, if any, would you lean towards using and why?
5) Is Grove of the Burnwillows a good addition to the mana base to help against Death's shadow? If so, what should I cut?
In a bit of a rush so excuse the short answers, but here's my two cents:
1. No, Ravine is too good and Moon is wonky for us.
2. Looks fine, you could cut a Decay but it's a meta call.
3. You already have plenty of GY hate in the form of Leylines. I personally don't like them and prefer Spellbomb / Surgical but hey.
4. Hard to say right now. Huntmaster is an automatic 2-for-1. Olivia and Kalitas don't do much as literal 4-drops but can take over the game with mana / removal backup. I don't like Hazoret but people are testing it to good results. For an unknown metagame I'd probably go Kalitas / Huntmaster split.
5. There's a reason we don't run Grove, and it isn't just the Punishing Fire ban. You can't cut Ravines because they're too good, and you can't cut Stomping Ground because Grove isn't fetchable.
Mana looks alright, maybe cut the Twilight Mire for another Blooming Marsh. Turn 1 Push / discard is more important than GG. You'll get BB anyway.
Sideboard looks alright, maybe you don't need 2 Grudges if you're already maindecking 2 Decays. I like a second Pulse in the side. Maybe an Anger for Dredge and other nonsense.
Wouldn't Thundermaw just get hit by Path? Or chump blocked by any Souls played after him? The rest are good ideas though
Also would bringing in Leyline of the Void be a good idea? It hinders the opponents Grim Flayers, Lingering Souls and Kitchen Finks, and gives you better control over Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Oozes.
I really don't recommend bringin in any GY hate against Abzan other than Nihil Spellbomb. The simple reason is that its still an attrition game, you really want life topdecks later in the game and Nihil Spellbomb replaces itself. I think Leyline is too narrow and Souls is not a good enough reason. We have Oozes for Souls as potential hate after all. A general rule of thumb is that its not worth it to bring in SB cards specifically for only a few cards from the opponent (like Souls here) unless hating the few cards is detrimental to their gameplan (I am thinking of Surgical for Living End).
And due to this reason, I also don't think Electrickery is a card you want against Abzan. Its not killing much, only souls, which is no good enough reason. The only card I fully agree on is Thundermaw, since its a threat itself. What I personally always loved vs Abzan is Liliana, the Last Hope. I would jam a few copies of her If I would expect Abzan in my meta. Also Olivia Voldaren is great vs them and generally a good card to run these days.
I'm going to a fairly competitive event on the weekend and I'm one of those "Jund guys" who never abandons Jund whether it's good or not in a certain meta. Problem is, due to heavy workload I haven't been able to play for the past 3 months or so, so I have literally no idea what I am about to face. I'm expecting some grixis shadows, probably some control decks and I don't know how popular abzan Company decks are. What strategy should I follow? I (think I) have all the "jund cards" available and I would love some feedback.
That's approximately a list I'm considering to tune
Questions for the list:
1) Should I cut the Ravines and go for Blood Moon strategy? If so, how many basics does that configuration require?
2) What about the removal package? I know that nowadays FP is better than bolt. What about terminate/decay? How many copies of k-command would you recommend?
3) What should my SB look like? Should I MB some gy hate except scooze, like Spellbomb?
4) What 4drops, if any, would you lean towards using and why?
5) Is Grove of the Burnwillows a good addition to the mana base to help against Death's shadow? If so, what should I cut?
Please help
Thanks in advance!
For your manabase: I would cut the Twilight Mire and add the fourth Bloodstained Mire. YOu want coloured mana on turn 1 on and you want more chances to trigger revold for Push.
Collective Brutality is what I would play more in the SB in Jund, unless I expect much Burn I guess. You can do it, but I personally like 3 Terminates in my MB more.
I would run 3 Oozes for sure, GY hate is pretty relevant right now.
Questions:
1) Nope, don't go for it, just play your 3 Fulminators and call it a day.
2) Basic removal package: 3-4 Push, 0-2 Bolt, 1-2 Decay, 2-3 Terminate, 1-2 KCommand and 1 Pulse (accompanied by 3-4 LotV but 4 is played more right now). This comes down to preference and meta decisions. I like 3 Terminates and 2 Decays for example. I also like 2 Bolt and therefore running only 3 Pushes. KCommand is fine as 1 of for me, but currently I also play 2. Pulse is always 1 of 100 %.
3) I like your 3 Fulminators, 3 Leylines, 1 Damnation, 2 Kitchen Finks. I think 2 Grudge and 1 Golgari Chamr is too much. I would play 1 Grudge and add a second CB at least. Golgari Charm is okay, but I think EE or Pulse #2 Would be a bit better. I would recommend playing 1-2 copies of LtLH in the SB. Anger of the Gods as 1-of is also pretty good for Dredge and CoCo decks. All in all somthing like this would be a good start:
You can play around with the numbers of course and add more GY hate, more grindy cards or sweeper if you feel you need it. Last thing, for control you could try Chandra, as she is pretty good against them.
4) 4-drops haven't really changed much except Olivia Voldaren is more played MB now. But if you expect creature based decks then Kalitas is great. For control and overall purpose Huntmaster is still viable. I personally would lean towards these 3.
5) No Grove is not viable as we have heavy requriements for black. Also I think the interaction with DS is too narrow. DS is of course presnt but not that present like it used to be. The format is quite open now and I think this would hurt yourself more than benefit you.
I'm considering going down to 23 lands, in order to do so...I'm willing to cut a Ravine.
I have the felling that i'm flooding way too often..
What do you all think about it?
I'm considering going down to 23 lands, in order to do so...I'm willing to cut a Ravine.
I have the felling that i'm flooding way too often..
What do you all think about it?
If you keep the curve low. I once tried a 23 land list, but didn't like it actually. I think bob is a major contributing factor in the lategame to draw "past" those exccess lands. In that regard I think 24 lands just work best overall. Its true that you still flood sometimes though.
I'm considering going down to 23 lands, in order to do so...I'm willing to cut a Ravine.
I have the felling that i'm flooding way too often..
What do you all think about it?
If you keep the curve low. I once tried a 23 land list, but didn't like it actually. I think bob is a major contributing factor in the lategame to draw "past" those exccess lands. In that regard I think 24 lands just work best overall. Its true that you still flood sometimes though.
So Im gonna be playing in a SCG IQ in a few weeks and I plan on playing jund basically the ried duke build but the last time I played I ran in to a lot of eldrazi trn. I was wondering if you guys had any sb tech or tips on this match up .I know its kinda a poor match up and im not trying to turn it into a great match up I just would like to even the odds if i can .
I agree at sticking with 24 lands but i also use a 1x Tireless Tracker lately to draw through the cards. He's been fantastic.
I love this card, but with my 23 lands in Jund I don't think could be a good idea. In addition you should play it on the 4th turn with a fetch, in order to be useful. Maybe it is better with 24 lands.
I wait other lists with 1/2 copies maindeck.
The problem with this card is that you give the opponent too many choices, therefore it is useless unless you can pay a ridiculous amount of mana, which Jund isn't well known for.
T1: Goblin 2-0
Tasigur the star because it enters @cc1 and maybe 2/3th turn. MVP.
T2: Death's Shadow Grixis 2-1
The choice of 5 LilianaS and 2 Tasigur made me all fuel I need. 2 times Tasigur's ability.
I've lost one game because I've seen 6 lands in 8 turns.
T3: Vizir Combo 2-0
Easy win g1, with Liliana of the Veil and 2 Goyf onto the battlefield. 7 discard spells are MUST now.
g2 fetch discard, fetch discard + push, 3th goyf + tasigur. GG.
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Thundermaw Hellkite, Obstinate Baloth, Kitchen Finks, Liliana, the Last Hope, Chandra, Pyromaster.
Cards that grind, cards that hose LoTV, and cards that kill Lingering Souls.
If I expected a lot of Abzan I would be totally sleeving up Thundermaw. Sadly, nobody plays it at my store so it's not worth the slot.
My local Abzan players literally auto-scoop to Thundermaw. This last week I even had a guy do it when I played it on curve and the game was set to go long (I definitely felt like he had chances to draw into removal and stabilize but cest la vie).
I'm a big fan of running a single dragon in Jund. More is too greedy, gums up your hand, and makes Bobs even more dangerous, but one has always felt right. It does well against a lot of things. It's weird enough that people don't usually expect it, either, esp. G1. Unfortunately, our community is small and friendly enough that people have started recognizing me as "Hellkite Jund guy" so it's a little less spicy ;p
Edit: If you wanted to get REALLY creative you could opt for a Sakura-tribe Elder + Blood Moon package that plays really nicely with dragons. Probably would force you into taking out Bobs, which is bad, and make lili harder to hit on curve due to tweaking of the mana base.... But hey, if you're looking to mix it up and your meta would hate it, could be a fine experiment.
Edit 2: More anti-Abzan ideas could include SB tech like Night of Souls' Betrayal, or even Electrickery. Obviously GY hate is good here, too. Stormbreath Dragon doesn't wipe souls, but it still swings past them and is immune to path. Dreadbore can be flexible as a worse Terminate that can hit Lili as well. Side out discard - they could be running Smiters etc. and these games tend to get down to topdecks pretty frequently in my experience. Olivia Voldaren can break board stalls since their 4-drops typically out-perform ours (rhino vs. huntmaster, for instance). I haven't played with Kalitas but maybe he'd be solid? I still think the single best tech for Abzan that doesn't dilute normal Jund-yness is Thundermaw, though.
Wouldn't Thundermaw just get hit by Path? Or chump blocked by any Souls played after him? The rest are good ideas though
Also would bringing in Leyline of the Void be a good idea? It hinders the opponents Grim Flayers, Lingering Souls and Kitchen Finks, and gives you better control over Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Oozes.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
In a bit of a rush so excuse the short answers, but here's my two cents:
1. No, Ravine is too good and Moon is wonky for us.
2. Looks fine, you could cut a Decay but it's a meta call.
3. You already have plenty of GY hate in the form of Leylines. I personally don't like them and prefer Spellbomb / Surgical but hey.
4. Hard to say right now. Huntmaster is an automatic 2-for-1. Olivia and Kalitas don't do much as literal 4-drops but can take over the game with mana / removal backup. I don't like Hazoret but people are testing it to good results. For an unknown metagame I'd probably go Kalitas / Huntmaster split.
5. There's a reason we don't run Grove, and it isn't just the Punishing Fire ban. You can't cut Ravines because they're too good, and you can't cut Stomping Ground because Grove isn't fetchable.
Mana looks alright, maybe cut the Twilight Mire for another Blooming Marsh. Turn 1 Push / discard is more important than GG. You'll get BB anyway.
Sideboard looks alright, maybe you don't need 2 Grudges if you're already maindecking 2 Decays. I like a second Pulse in the side. Maybe an Anger for Dredge and other nonsense.
Good luck!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I really don't recommend bringin in any GY hate against Abzan other than Nihil Spellbomb. The simple reason is that its still an attrition game, you really want life topdecks later in the game and Nihil Spellbomb replaces itself. I think Leyline is too narrow and Souls is not a good enough reason. We have Oozes for Souls as potential hate after all. A general rule of thumb is that its not worth it to bring in SB cards specifically for only a few cards from the opponent (like Souls here) unless hating the few cards is detrimental to their gameplan (I am thinking of Surgical for Living End).
And due to this reason, I also don't think Electrickery is a card you want against Abzan. Its not killing much, only souls, which is no good enough reason. The only card I fully agree on is Thundermaw, since its a threat itself. What I personally always loved vs Abzan is Liliana, the Last Hope. I would jam a few copies of her If I would expect Abzan in my meta. Also Olivia Voldaren is great vs them and generally a good card to run these days.
For your manabase: I would cut the Twilight Mire and add the fourth Bloodstained Mire. YOu want coloured mana on turn 1 on and you want more chances to trigger revold for Push.
Collective Brutality is what I would play more in the SB in Jund, unless I expect much Burn I guess. You can do it, but I personally like 3 Terminates in my MB more.
I would run 3 Oozes for sure, GY hate is pretty relevant right now.
Questions:
1) Nope, don't go for it, just play your 3 Fulminators and call it a day.
2) Basic removal package: 3-4 Push, 0-2 Bolt, 1-2 Decay, 2-3 Terminate, 1-2 KCommand and 1 Pulse (accompanied by 3-4 LotV but 4 is played more right now). This comes down to preference and meta decisions. I like 3 Terminates and 2 Decays for example. I also like 2 Bolt and therefore running only 3 Pushes. KCommand is fine as 1 of for me, but currently I also play 2. Pulse is always 1 of 100 %.
3) I like your 3 Fulminators, 3 Leylines, 1 Damnation, 2 Kitchen Finks. I think 2 Grudge and 1 Golgari Chamr is too much. I would play 1 Grudge and add a second CB at least. Golgari Charm is okay, but I think EE or Pulse #2 Would be a bit better. I would recommend playing 1-2 copies of LtLH in the SB. Anger of the Gods as 1-of is also pretty good for Dredge and CoCo decks. All in all somthing like this would be a good start:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Collective Brutality
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Kitchen Finks
You can play around with the numbers of course and add more GY hate, more grindy cards or sweeper if you feel you need it. Last thing, for control you could try Chandra, as she is pretty good against them.
4) 4-drops haven't really changed much except Olivia Voldaren is more played MB now. But if you expect creature based decks then Kalitas is great. For control and overall purpose Huntmaster is still viable. I personally would lean towards these 3.
5) No Grove is not viable as we have heavy requriements for black. Also I think the interaction with DS is too narrow. DS is of course presnt but not that present like it used to be. The format is quite open now and I think this would hurt yourself more than benefit you.
I have the felling that i'm flooding way too often..
What do you all think about it?
UR Twin - RIP
If you keep the curve low. I once tried a 23 land list, but didn't like it actually. I think bob is a major contributing factor in the lategame to draw "past" those exccess lands. In that regard I think 24 lands just work best overall. Its true that you still flood sometimes though.
For reference this is what I'm planning to run:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Raging Ravine
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Blood Moon
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
UR Twin - RIP
Modern.
GBW Junk
GBR Jund
UG Infect
I don't think could be put in my 75 honestly.
I love this card, but with my 23 lands in Jund I don't think could be a good idea. In addition you should play it on the 4th turn with a fetch, in order to be useful. Maybe it is better with 24 lands.
I wait other lists with 1/2 copies maindeck.
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Twilight Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Collective Brutality
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Jund Charm
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
T1: Goblin 2-0
Tasigur the star because it enters @cc1 and maybe 2/3th turn. MVP.
T2: Death's Shadow Grixis 2-1
The choice of 5 LilianaS and 2 Tasigur made me all fuel I need. 2 times Tasigur's ability.
I've lost one game because I've seen 6 lands in 8 turns.
T3: Vizir Combo 2-0
Easy win g1, with Liliana of the Veil and 2 Goyf onto the battlefield. 7 discard spells are MUST now.
g2 fetch discard, fetch discard + push, 3th goyf + tasigur. GG.