Thanks for the write up! I love seeing the variety and versatility of these Humans decks.
Anyways, on my drive into work this morning, I got to thinking about my testing with 5C last night - what things I liked, what I didn't like etc. I really liked the 4th Kitesail Freebooter in the main. I liked not having dead Sin Collectors in the main yet still having it available in the side. I liked having Thalia, Heretic Cathar to help against blockers and occasionally slow down mana. On the downside, while the mana worked and was overall stable and Mantis Rider is a beast, I would like to cut down on color requirements where possible. So with all of that said, I started to try working out in my head how I could apply these learnings to a more refined list. Here's what I'm thinking:
This way we don't have dead cards main and we can still side into the more hateful version side board. Thalia helps us against chump blockers that prove to be a pain. Thoughts?
I like it!
Still not confident with Mantis Rider without tests. So 4 colors is the way for a while, and man, I love Thalias!
Red cards in the board isn't a little risk without red shock?
I like it!
Still not confident with Mantis Rider without tests. So 4 colors is the way for a while, and man, I love Thalias!
Red cards in the board isn't a little risk without red shock?
With 2 Thalias in the main, maybe we can cut afford to cut the Falconers for an extra Arashin Cleric and a red shock.
There is a New Versus Series in the SCG with Todd Stevens playing 5C Humans, intersting list with Xathrid, Glory-Bound and Tracker.
Xathrid looks weird with the disruptive package, but Glory-Bound is something to test against Burn/Aggro decks, Tracker is cool but slow in my opinion.
I love Xathrid Necromancer but it never did enough for me during testing. The deck has issues breaking through on the ground and Necromancer doesn't help that. I think the wealth of other, better options at 3 cmc push it out.
The problem with Glory-Bound Initiate is that it has to live a turn, not block anything, then attack and be tapped for 2 turns in order to hopefully gain some life and not get hit by Skullcrack. That's ultra bad/risky against burn. You want to gain life ASAP and start blocking. However, it's probably a solid aggro 2 drop option, I just wouldn't use a matchup like burn to justify it. I'd like it in matchups that end up being damage races or where I need to punch through big blockers. I bet it performed well against the Jeskai Delver deck.
Tireless Tracker with 21 lands and 8 fetches doesn't sound very appealing to me personally. Did he comment on them at all? He must've really seen something special in them to run 4x in the 75.
Thanks for the write up! I love seeing the variety and versatility of these Humans decks.
Anyways, on my drive into work this morning, I got to thinking about my testing with 5C last night - what things I liked, what I didn't like etc. I really liked the 4th Kitesail Freebooter in the main. I liked not having dead Sin Collectors in the main yet still having it available in the side. I liked having Thalia, Heretic Cathar to help against blockers and occasionally slow down mana. On the downside, while the mana worked and was overall stable and Mantis Rider is a beast, I would like to cut down on color requirements where possible. So with all of that said, I started to try working out in my head how I could apply these learnings to a more refined list. Here's what I'm thinking:
This way we don't have dead cards main and we can still side into the more hateful version side board. Thalia helps us against chump blockers that prove to be a pain. Thoughts?
I like the Thalia's, however I don't know if I want Meddling Mage over Sin Collector against the field. I believe that if you cut disruption like Sin Collector you have to optimize for maximum speed, in which case I think Mantis Rider is the way to go. Anyway I would probably cut one Anafenza for a Abzan Falconer if you stick to that build.
I like the Thalia's, however I don't know if I want Meddling Mage over Sin Collector against the field. I believe that if you cut disruption like Sin Collector you have to optimize for maximum speed, in which case I think Mantis Rider is the way to go. Anyway I would probably cut one Anafenza for a Abzan Falconer if you stick to that build.
The point of this build is to try to keep mana requirements a little more sane, so Mantis Rider doesn't apply here. Anafenza is by far the best clock available in these colors, so I'd want to stick with it. As for Meddling Mage, I could see cutting one of those for an Abzan Falconer, but with a full playset of Kitesail Freebooter, Mage seems at its best here. There's certainly some flexibility in those slots, though. But as I said a few posts ago, it's really a power level vs mana stability tug of war. 5C is the best overall power level, but the most susceptible to mana issues. I think 4C might be the sweet spot since we're not giving up *that* much power, but we'll see. I'll be continuing to try both on MTGO
I've tested just some draws and felt that the deck needs more pressure, maybe bad luck, I don't know, but was weird.
Which version?
Last one.
I'm thinking about to test your SCG list with Unclaimed main and Freebooter board. Looks very solid and Mini Thalia always helped in my LGS.
Are you referring to this? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116202 If you're worried about pressure, this is going to be slower than the Bant Black build (Sin Collector and Abzan Falconer) and 3x Mini Thalia is going to slow you down even more. With Freebooter and Sin Collector available, I don't see any reason to run her; in my testing, actually stealing a spell and having hand information has been much better than providing a small speed bump that slows down your own Companies and Paths. It's a solid list, don't get me wrong, but I don't think the reasoning lines up. I would recommend doing more than a few test draws before coming to conclusions; speed has not been a problem in my ~15-20 games with it so far. I'd be curious to know what exactly these types of draws are and why they're not applying enough pressure.
My typical game plays out like:
(note: this isn't including the Champ/Lieutenant/Mayor draws, as those are common to all builds)
T1 Champ/Dork
T2 A) Freebooter (steal their best spell) maybe with another 1 drop
T2 B) 3 drop like Anafenza Thalia or Reflector Mage (bouncing their dork or early creature)
T3 You name it. Collected Company or Meddling Mage whatever I saw in their hand etc etc. Unless I've been drawing blanks, this is where the opponent really gets tested. They lost their best spell early in the game (often a sweeper, removal spell or combo piece), meaning they need a removal for Freebooter which leaves our other big stuff alive that's beating them down for chunks of damage. And this is assuming we don't have another Freebooter or Meddling Mage (or Collector from the side) to protect it and require their draws to be even more specific.
You can also have a play pattern where you use something like Anafenza, Thalia, lord etc to put board pressure down on T2 then use Freebooter on T3 to snipe any answers they may have drawn into.
Aside from the very aggressive Bant Red Mantis Rider list, this deck puts on some of the fastest pressure of all the lists I've tested. The trick is that it isn't pressure from just a power on board perspective, it's pressure from multiple angles as we're able to interact with their hand and sculpt our gameplan around it. That is a very valuable form of pressure not to be overlooked.
Looks solid. I will say that I quite liked the list I was testing last night with narrower stuff like Sin Collector in the sideboard and more generically applicable cards like a 4th Freebooter and Anafenza in the main. Sin Collector could be main deckable depending on the meta though. Anafenza is a much needed clock for the deck, as it can be pretty slow to finish games off games otherwise. I did try several games with a single Abzan Falconer in the main, but every time I drew it I wished it was something else, like a Meddling Mage or Anafenza, the Foremost. It's an awful card without the right board state, especially against decks that can keep the board clean. I plan to keep it relegated to the sideboard for removal-light ground creature matchups.
I've tested just some draws and felt that the deck needs more pressure, maybe bad luck, I don't know, but was weird.
Which version?
Last one.
I'm thinking about to test your SCG list with Unclaimed main and Freebooter board. Looks very solid and Mini Thalia always helped in my LGS.
Are you referring to this? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116202 If you're worried about pressure, this is going to be slower than the Bant Black build (Sin Collector and Abzan Falconer) and 3x Mini Thalia is going to slow you down even more. With Freebooter and Sin Collector available, I don't see any reason to run her; in my testing, actually stealing a spell and having hand information has been much better than providing a small speed bump that slows down your own Companies and Paths. It's a solid list, don't get me wrong, but I don't think the reasoning lines up. I would recommend doing more than a few test draws before coming to conclusions; speed has not been a problem in my ~15-20 games with it so far. I'd be curious to know what exactly these types of draws are and why they're not applying enough pressure.
I heavily disagree that my list from the scg iq is slower compared to the bant black list. In fact it is probably faster because I played 8 mana dorks and much more 3 drops.this is faster compared to freebooter 1/2 and meddling mage. If you see a t3 coco coming you
Definitely won't play Thalia v1.0 turn two. If you do against certain decks they usually kill it immediately. Yes you can be unlucky and they don't but overall I think the speed differences of the bat black lists are marginal while red is truly faster.
I agree that the speed differences aren't major between the Bant Black lists. Whether or not one specific list is faster than the other is arguable; you had more chances at a T1 dork acceleration, which is great, but that also means more chances to "brick" on a Collected Company and/or simply get flooded with dork draws later in the game. None of the 3 drops apply nearly as much pressure as Anafenza either, with the exception being Abzan Falconer with a developed Lieutenant board.
If you see a t3 coco coming you definitely won't play Thalia v1.0 turn two. If you do against certain decks they usually kill it immediately. Yes you can be unlucky and they don't.
You just explained exactly why I don't like Thalia 1.0. The last thing I want is to feel forced to not put pressure on the board because a card I'm running in my own deck hinders my gameplan. Then against the decks where I would want Thalia, all they do is kill it immediately and move on, meaning all she did was provide a minor speed bump. Then in the games where you want it and they don't kill it, you're still often slowing yourself down just as much (if not more) because Company is our best way to finish off a game. I put her in the same bucket as Dark Confidant - looks great on paper, but not in practice. Other decks use them to great effect, but they just don't work here.
3-0-1 was my result and the deck was much better than I tought!
Bant Eldrazi (2-1)
Game 1 I made a Big Thalia turn 2, he had no basics, so I made tons of humans every turn and Thalia just won easily.
Game 2 mull to 5 (no lands), started very slow cause of mulls, he had enough Paths for my creatures.
Game 3 again Big Thalia turn 2, my Company turn 4 dropped Mayor and Lieutenant, I draw another Lieutenant, so much power.
Eldrazi Tron (2-1)
Game 1 I made 3 Freebooters that saved me from Chalice 2, Dismember and Map, bumped my guys with Lieutenant and just attacked from the sky.
Game 2 mull to 4 (again no lands...) then draw 3 more lands, nothing more.
Game 3 both mulligan to 6 but I had curved hand with Noble, Parish, Thalia then draw more Lieutenants, went big so fast, and again, Big Thalia was awsome.
Mardu Pyromancer (2-0)
Game 1 we went greedy, 1 land each side until my turn 3 when I draw 2 more lands in sequence, droped my dudes, he draw just one more land 2 turns after me.
Game 2 I casted Noble, Sin Colector and Reflector Mage, created a solid field with Lieutenant then Pontiff for the win.
Storm (1-1)
My friend, and we were going home together, no reason to play. I think that Storm is a favorable match if there is no turn 2 Blood Moon, we have so many ways to disrupt the combo, but a careful hand is necessary.
Wrost card: Anafenza, I don't felt that she was necessary any time, she is good, but slow in general.
Best card: Big Thalia, she is so ******* awsome, always wanted in my hand, even late game against blockers, love her.
I had no problem with colors, but maybe was luck, I guess a turn 2 Blood Moon or LD can can ruin the deck.
Also tested with Grixis DS, 8-4, just lost to mulls and infinite Fatal Push.
I like it!
Still not confident with Mantis Rider without tests. So 4 colors is the way for a while, and man, I love Thalias!
Red cards in the board isn't a little risk without red shock?
With 2 Thalias in the main, maybe we can cut afford to cut the Falconers for an extra Arashin Cleric and a red shock.
Xathrid looks weird with the disruptive package, but Glory-Bound is something to test against Burn/Aggro decks, Tracker is cool but slow in my opinion.
@Mender: can you link the full list?
I love Xathrid Necromancer but it never did enough for me during testing. The deck has issues breaking through on the ground and Necromancer doesn't help that. I think the wealth of other, better options at 3 cmc push it out.
The problem with Glory-Bound Initiate is that it has to live a turn, not block anything, then attack and be tapped for 2 turns in order to hopefully gain some life and not get hit by Skullcrack. That's ultra bad/risky against burn. You want to gain life ASAP and start blocking. However, it's probably a solid aggro 2 drop option, I just wouldn't use a matchup like burn to justify it. I'd like it in matchups that end up being damage races or where I need to punch through big blockers. I bet it performed well against the Jeskai Delver deck.
And yes, Tireless Tracker was too slow in my testing. You'd probably want it in a grindier build with stuff like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Eternal Witness and Duskwatch Recruiter, but those builds seem too slow overall.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Mantis Rider
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Reflector Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Xathrid Necromancer
4 Path to Exile
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Windswept Heath
3 Izzet Staticaster
3 Sin Collector
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Stony Silence
1 Kataki, War's Wage
I like the Thalia's, however I don't know if I want Meddling Mage over Sin Collector against the field. I believe that if you cut disruption like Sin Collector you have to optimize for maximum speed, in which case I think Mantis Rider is the way to go. Anyway I would probably cut one Anafenza for a Abzan Falconer if you stick to that build.
The point of this build is to try to keep mana requirements a little more sane, so Mantis Rider doesn't apply here. Anafenza is by far the best clock available in these colors, so I'd want to stick with it. As for Meddling Mage, I could see cutting one of those for an Abzan Falconer, but with a full playset of Kitesail Freebooter, Mage seems at its best here. There's certainly some flexibility in those slots, though. But as I said a few posts ago, it's really a power level vs mana stability tug of war. 5C is the best overall power level, but the most susceptible to mana issues. I think 4C might be the sweet spot since we're not giving up *that* much power, but we'll see. I'll be continuing to try both on MTGO
Which version?
Last one.
I'm thinking about to test your SCG list with Unclaimed main and Freebooter board. Looks very solid and Mini Thalia always helped in my LGS.
Are you referring to this? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116202 If you're worried about pressure, this is going to be slower than the Bant Black build (Sin Collector and Abzan Falconer) and 3x Mini Thalia is going to slow you down even more. With Freebooter and Sin Collector available, I don't see any reason to run her; in my testing, actually stealing a spell and having hand information has been much better than providing a small speed bump that slows down your own Companies and Paths. It's a solid list, don't get me wrong, but I don't think the reasoning lines up. I would recommend doing more than a few test draws before coming to conclusions; speed has not been a problem in my ~15-20 games with it so far. I'd be curious to know what exactly these types of draws are and why they're not applying enough pressure.
My typical game plays out like:
(note: this isn't including the Champ/Lieutenant/Mayor draws, as those are common to all builds)
T1 Champ/Dork
T2 A) Freebooter (steal their best spell) maybe with another 1 drop
T2 B) 3 drop like Anafenza Thalia or Reflector Mage (bouncing their dork or early creature)
T3 You name it. Collected Company or Meddling Mage whatever I saw in their hand etc etc. Unless I've been drawing blanks, this is where the opponent really gets tested. They lost their best spell early in the game (often a sweeper, removal spell or combo piece), meaning they need a removal for Freebooter which leaves our other big stuff alive that's beating them down for chunks of damage. And this is assuming we don't have another Freebooter or Meddling Mage (or Collector from the side) to protect it and require their draws to be even more specific.
You can also have a play pattern where you use something like Anafenza, Thalia, lord etc to put board pressure down on T2 then use Freebooter on T3 to snipe any answers they may have drawn into.
Aside from the very aggressive Bant Red Mantis Rider list, this deck puts on some of the fastest pressure of all the lists I've tested. The trick is that it isn't pressure from just a power on board perspective, it's pressure from multiple angles as we're able to interact with their hand and sculpt our gameplan around it. That is a very valuable form of pressure not to be overlooked.
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Reflector Mage
3 Sin Collector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Kitesail Freebooter
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
1 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Gavony Township
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Godless Shrine
3 Unclaimed Territory
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
4 Windswept Heath
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Stony Silencie
Still maybe:
-1 Falconer or -1 Thalia +1 Anafenza
Side is obviously meta stuff, just without red to not force your mana base so hard.
I heavily disagree that my list from the scg iq is slower compared to the bant black list. In fact it is probably faster because I played 8 mana dorks and much more 3 drops.this is faster compared to freebooter 1/2 and meddling mage. If you see a t3 coco coming you
Definitely won't play Thalia v1.0 turn two. If you do against certain decks they usually kill it immediately. Yes you can be unlucky and they don't but overall I think the speed differences of the bat black lists are marginal while red is truly faster.
You just explained exactly why I don't like Thalia 1.0. The last thing I want is to feel forced to not put pressure on the board because a card I'm running in my own deck hinders my gameplan. Then against the decks where I would want Thalia, all they do is kill it immediately and move on, meaning all she did was provide a minor speed bump. Then in the games where you want it and they don't kill it, you're still often slowing yourself down just as much (if not more) because Company is our best way to finish off a game. I put her in the same bucket as Dark Confidant - looks great on paper, but not in practice. Other decks use them to great effect, but they just don't work here.
As I said, I wanted to play humans today in my LGS, so I've tested this list:
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Reflector Mage
3 Sin Collector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Kitesail Freebooter
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
1 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Godless Shrine
4 Unclaimed Territory
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
4 Windswept Heath
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Vithian Renegades
1 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Abzan Falconer
1 Izzet Staticaster
3-0-1 was my result and the deck was much better than I tought!
Bant Eldrazi (2-1)
Game 1 I made a Big Thalia turn 2, he had no basics, so I made tons of humans every turn and Thalia just won easily.
Game 2 mull to 5 (no lands), started very slow cause of mulls, he had enough Paths for my creatures.
Game 3 again Big Thalia turn 2, my Company turn 4 dropped Mayor and Lieutenant, I draw another Lieutenant, so much power.
Eldrazi Tron (2-1)
Game 1 I made 3 Freebooters that saved me from Chalice 2, Dismember and Map, bumped my guys with Lieutenant and just attacked from the sky.
Game 2 mull to 4 (again no lands...) then draw 3 more lands, nothing more.
Game 3 both mulligan to 6 but I had curved hand with Noble, Parish, Thalia then draw more Lieutenants, went big so fast, and again, Big Thalia was awsome.
Mardu Pyromancer (2-0)
Game 1 we went greedy, 1 land each side until my turn 3 when I draw 2 more lands in sequence, droped my dudes, he draw just one more land 2 turns after me.
Game 2 I casted Noble, Sin Colector and Reflector Mage, created a solid field with Lieutenant then Pontiff for the win.
Storm (1-1)
My friend, and we were going home together, no reason to play. I think that Storm is a favorable match if there is no turn 2 Blood Moon, we have so many ways to disrupt the combo, but a careful hand is necessary.
Wrost card: Anafenza, I don't felt that she was necessary any time, she is good, but slow in general.
Best card: Big Thalia, she is so ******* awsome, always wanted in my hand, even late game against blockers, love her.
I had no problem with colors, but maybe was luck, I guess a turn 2 Blood Moon or LD can can ruin the deck.
Also tested with Grixis DS, 8-4, just lost to mulls and infinite Fatal Push.
I think the version I want to go with is either 5C or the 4 Freebooter, 2 MM, 2 Anafanza, 2 Thalia V2.0 and hopefully somehow 1 Falconer package.