I think with Jaces you will want to up the fetchland count to at least 6 and up the Temporal Mastery to 4, @timewalkinonsunshine.
And what are all our thoughts on dropping the number of non-basic lands to minimize the targets for Field of Ruin? Seems like we don't want to get our perfectly placed top deck shuffled away because we have a valid target. Just sayin..
ALSO: so much for having an all foiled out deck! At least until the M25 copies come way down in price. The Eternal Masters versions were $115-$120 yesterday, and I missed the boat by minutes this morning. Would probably pay that again for a foil..I know, unlikely now.
Another Edit:
@Truckis123 just posted this decklist on twitter.
Always nice to see you carrying the light of extra turns out into the wild complete with the trademark excessive sleeving. Rough end to the Burn match, though it was kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't at that point.
Thanks! I actually felt like I was in a reasonable though not great situation at that point. The Destructive Revelry was obviously the nail in the coffin, but if Jon was just holding a land (which I was counting on to win that game), I think I had a reasonable but not great shot of attacking with TitI before Jon could kill me. I had Commandeer and Fatal Push in my hand, so my plan was to Fatal Push TitI at end step to bring it to 3 counters, then draw some combination of Time Warps or other spells to flip it and get the kill. I was also planning on holding blue cards for Commandeer, so that if Jon drew something like Boros Charm, I'd be able to not die. But when they have it they have it!
I think with Jaces you will want to up the fetchland count to at least 6 and up the Temporal Mastery to 4, @timewalkinonsunshine.
I think that both of these ideas are too "all in" on the Jace plan. In my mind, Jace is something to help our main game plan of taking a bunch of turns, not something to completely build around. For Disrupting Shoal, I don't think there are that many good targets, as the CMCs in our deck go much higher than most of the field. For fetchlands, I feel that 6 is a bit on the "too much" side, since we do tend to take damage in the early game and those last few points of life do matter sometimes. Temporal Mastery is one of the swingier cards in the deck, in that it's almost always the worst card you can see in your opening hand but often a card you'd like to topdeck, and I think that 4 is too many even if Jace is in the deck. Of course, I could be completely wrong about any or all of these points, since this is all based on gut instinct at this point.
And what are all our thoughts on dropping the number of non-basic lands to minimize the targets for Field of Ruin? Seems like we don't want to get our perfectly placed top deck shuffled away because we have a valid target. Just sayin..
I don't think that's enough of a concern that it should be a deckbuilding constraint. It's also next to impossible to do that in any splash build.
I love that one-of Living End as a zero/three mana wrath with As Foretold. I've thought of using Restore Balance for that kind of effect, but saccing lands and discarding cards would end up being too much for us.
Truckis123 list is in the direction I would be playing, def. I'm just not too sure about the miser's Azcanta and the lack of Gigadrowses.
To be fair, I don't think running 6 fetchlands is all-in. You're running 4 already, 2 more shouldn't be much of a stretch, specially since there's not a lot of Choke around. All in would be something like 8 or 10, imo.
If you play a turn 4 Jace and Brainstorm Temporal to the top, I'm fairly certain that very few players would waste a whole turn Field of Ruining your plan. It gives you pretty much a virtual timewalk in the sense that they are taking their turn to hinder your plans, and taking time is pretty much the theme of this deck.
While I agree that Temporal Mastery is the worst card to start the game, it's pretty much the card you want to see the most past turn 2. It warrants a 4-of in my list because of that.
I would like also to argue that I'm not very experienced with the splashes outside of red of this deck, so maybe 3 would be fine in the UB list that you championed not a while ago.
I favor the mono-blue builds with this new BR, though. I like Truckis123's direction and will definitely explore that over the course of the next months.
To be fair, I don't think running 6 fetchlands is all-in. You're running 4 already, 2 more shouldn't be much of a stretch, specially since there's not a lot of Choke around.
If you don't think unbanning Jace isn't going to cause Choke to become a more sideboarded card, you're crazy.
I really think opt should be considered as a 4-of in the JtMS decks. Just for the increased chances to temporal mastery on their EoT. It's clunky, I know, but feels just a fraction better than miracling on your turn
Edit: are we going to start including Flashfreeze in our SB to combat the early choke & boil along with other garbage red/green killers, say BBE 🤷♂️
Tron is not very good against permission-type decks nor ultra-fast decks, basically every Jace deck and every deck that wants to kill Jace decks. Tron are their best against midrange, so they are probably going to be a decent choice in a meta full of BBE.
Jace is good against TKS, but bad against Reality Smasher, so I think Eldrazi Tron is still decent in the meta. Probably colored tron decks are going to reduce their numbers in favor of Eldrazi Tron decks.
Also, I would like make something clear: don't be hellbent in the whole turn4 Jace thing. No one would ever do that in a game if it means you instantly lose the game. If I would draw a parallel, it would be going for a T4 Splinter Twin win when the opponent has open mana. If you make your argument for not playing Jace as taking the worst possible approach to play Jace, he will look like a bad card.
Please don't make a bad play and put the blame on the card.
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Also, I would like make something clear: don't be hellbent in the whole turn4 Jace thing. No one would ever do that in a game if it means you instantly lose the game.
Please don't make a bad play and put the blame on the card.
You make a great point. Shaheen Soorani was on the First Strike podcast last night and said basically that. When this is played in a U/W control shell, you're not looking to slam him down on turn 4; more likely turn 8+ after you've taken control of the game. HOWEVER, we are a different style control deck and usually don't have 2UU lying around. I do feel that if we have the ability to drop Jace on turn 4 when we can brainstorm a Temporal Mastery back to the top to miracle next turn, we kind-of don't care if he dies. It's almost like our plan becomes:
Set up miracle
Absorb some damage
Proceed to "go off"
Also, about the number of Jace. Probably looking to run 2-3 in the turns deck. He does not replace Dictate, maybe Mine/Search (although I'm high on Search right now because of the "ramp" nature of the card). I really want 4 Opt now, to increase the chance to miracle on their turn. Are we still looking to splash for removal/disruption (B) or good sideboard cards (W)? Seems like the "Jace" version wants to be mono-U so we can maximize on Gigadrowse.
These numbers are obviously a starting point, and should be tweaked. Lands would likely be 1x each Inkmoth, Mikokoro, maybe Gemstone Caverns(??) and the rest Islands; Hell, maybe even 1-3 Field of Ruin is right for a more controlling build. More or less opt, snapcaster, PtW, JtMS, Search, Cryptic are just fine. Including something else like commandeer, remand, howling mine, etc is totally fine! Tune to your meta, that's what its all about.
Tron is not very good against permission-type decks nor ultra-fast decks, basically every Jace deck and every deck that wants to kill Jace decks. Tron are their best against midrange, so they are probably going to be a decent choice in a meta full of BBE.
Jace is good against TKS, but bad against Reality Smasher, so I think Eldrazi Tron is still decent in the meta. Probably colored tron decks are going to reduce their numbers in favor of Eldrazi Tron decks.
Also, I would like make something clear: don't be hellbent in the whole turn4 Jace thing. No one would ever do that in a game if it means you instantly lose the game. If I would draw a parallel, it would be going for a T4 Splinter Twin win when the opponent has open mana. If you make your argument for not playing Jace as taking the worst possible approach to play Jace, he will look like a bad card.
Please don't make a bad play and put the blame on the card.
then that 4 mana card stuck in hand for the correct moment to play could be something else that makes you win
then that 4 mana card stuck in hand for the correct moment to play could be something else that makes you win
This is a great point to run less than 4 Jaces, actually. Since I've been based on As Foretold, I'll probably start with 2, altough I feel that 3 is the sweet spot.
Like hemur said, however, the turn 4 fog into miracle might be a really strong interaction, and is the sole argument to run 4 Jaces, I think.
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I also want to say how amazing the turns forum is for activity! Since the announcement 25 hours ago, we've had 48 comments, mostly of constructive nature! That's fantastic
When Jace hits, I'll probably go -1 Approach, -1 Cryptic +2 Jace. Then, if I want a third one, I'll take out one Wheel of Fortune. One of the strengths of this deck G1 is that most people think you're UW Control and play with more caution.]
Going a bunch of turns, having a full grip, a lot of extra lands and a fully loaded As Foretold is enough to make people forfeit as well.
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Also, I would like make something clear: don't be hellbent in the whole turn4 Jace thing. No one would ever do that in a game if it means you instantly lose the game.
Please don't make a bad play and put the blame on the card.
You make a great point. Shaheen Soorani was on the First Strike podcast last night and said basically that. When this is played in a U/W control shell, you're not looking to slam him down on turn 4; more likely turn 8+ after you've taken control of the game. HOWEVER, we are a different style control deck and usually don't have 2UU lying around. I do feel that if we have the ability to drop Jace on turn 4 when we can brainstorm a Temporal Mastery back to the top to miracle next turn, we kind-of don't care if he dies. It's almost like our plan becomes:
Set up miracle
Absorb some damage
Proceed to "go off"
I agree with this completely. I think it's also pretty reasonable to do something like turn 5 Jace, bounce a threat, Gigadrowse a second threat, or turn 7 Jace and Exhaustion. Or sometimes you just let him set up your turn 5 miracle + mine and let him die. He doesn't have to be a turn 4 play, you don't have to 0 him every turn. There is power in that flexibility!
Also, I would like make something clear: don't be hellbent in the whole turn4 Jace thing. No one would ever do that in a game if it means you instantly lose the game.
Please don't make a bad play and put the blame on the card.
You make a great point. Shaheen Soorani was on the First Strike podcast last night and said basically that. When this is played in a U/W control shell, you're not looking to slam him down on turn 4; more likely turn 8+ after you've taken control of the game. HOWEVER, we are a different style control deck and usually don't have 2UU lying around. I do feel that if we have the ability to drop Jace on turn 4 when we can brainstorm a Temporal Mastery back to the top to miracle next turn, we kind-of don't care if he dies. It's almost like our plan becomes:
Set up miracle
Absorb some damage
Proceed to "go off"
I agree with this completely. I think it's also pretty reasonable to do something like turn 5 Jace, bounce a threat, Gigadrowse a second threat, or turn 7 Jace and Exhaustion. Or sometimes you just let him set up your turn 5 miracle + mine and let him die. He doesn't have to be a turn 4 play, you don't have to 0 him every turn. There is power in that flexibility!
To piggyback on this thought train: I'm of the opinion that you definitely want to keep the inkmoth/PtW wincon in the deck since it lets you brainstorm with jace every turn to find your wincon (digging so much more effectively than we have in the past) and not have to worry about upticking Jace. In the list I posted earlier i took out the mines to make Jace space because of this.
Lucksacked the Gemstone CavernsFOUR TIMES in 13 rounds played (32 games, not sure how many were on the draw). That is a hell of a lot of luck dude! Good finish, solid report. Lets keep taking those turns
HAH! Yes that's pretty true, although it feels like my most common openers are all 3 turns cards.. I've literally had 4 turns & 3 lands, basically a mull-to-3
Lucksacked the Gemstone CavernsFOUR TIMES in 13 rounds played (32 games, not sure how many were on the draw). That is a hell of a lot of luck dude! Good finish, solid report. Lets keep taking those turns
Since I was a little bit bored, I did a hypergeometric distribution calculation on the chance to see Gemstone Caverns, when you have 2 on your deck. The calculation does not consider mulligans.
So, the chance to see exactly one Caverns in your starting hand is a little bit shy of 21%. The chance to see one or two is a little bit over 22%.
So if we plug this data in a binomial distribution and use a Student's t distribution to calculate the confidence interval, in average after 32 games you would have seen (7 +- 1) Gemstone Caverns for 95% accuracy. Looks like our friend is either VERY unlucky to only have seen that many Gemstone Caverns or he is not shuffling his deck enough times to reach a sufficiently random state.
OTOH: 2 Gemstone Caverns really seems the sweet spot. Running just 1 makes the probability of seeing one on your starting hand go down to 11.6% and going to three, soars it up to 28%, with the caveat of having a risk of seeing doubles on the starting hand to 31% and multiples across the game to be very likely to happens (something we do not want).
This post has been sponsored by my procrastination to finish a presentation. I hope you liked it.
Edit3: The calculation assumes a normal distribution approximation. To correctly calculate the confidence interval of a binomial distribution, it is a more complicated process. I also was pretty lax on the confidence intervals, as I just did a z=2 for 95%. That is a rough approximation.
Edit4: The chance to only see 4 Gemstone Caverns in 32 games is funnily, one in 33. This means that what happened on the GP for Mr. Wong happens only about 3% of the time. Talk about unlucky!
Yes, it was only 32 TOTAL games, probably half or so are on the draw. So say it's 20 of the 32 games are on the draw (since he won a lot 😉) 4 times is less improbable, yet still seemingly 'unlucky'?
I think your calculation also doesn't consider that you have to be on the draw for Caverns, so not every game is elligible.
Oh, what a fool I am. I forgot completely that it only works in the draw. Yes, (4+-1) sounds about right. I guess Mr. Wong was just about average lucky, so no need to feel bad about being a lucksack.
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FWIW: I've seen a LOT of (obvious) chatter about JtMS working really well with miracle cards, mostly Terminus and Entreat but also Temporal Mastery. With these genius lightbulbs going off, it seems to reason that there will start to be more undesired hate against us. Thinking Jace's Defeat, Invasive Surgery and more Negate's. There will also be more hand disruption spells out there to rip Jace out of the opening hands. This is bad news for us because we FOLD to Thoughtseize & IoK.
The bogles deck that won GP Toronto last weekend was running main deck Leyline of Sanctity; do we consider this an option when not splashing W?
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ALSO: so much for having an all foiled out deck! At least until the M25 copies come way down in price. The Eternal Masters versions were $115-$120 yesterday, and I missed the boat by minutes this morning. Would probably pay that again for a foil..I know, unlikely now.
Another Edit:
@Truckis123 just posted this decklist on twitter.
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Living End
4x Opt
4x Serum Visions
1x Search for Azcanta
4x As Foretold
4x Exhaustion
1x Day's Undoing
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Cryptic Command
4x Time Warp
4x Temporal Mastery
2x Flooded Strand
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
3x Tolaria West
9x Island
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Spell Pierce
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Thing in the Ice
2x Disrupting Shoal
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
Thanks! I actually felt like I was in a reasonable though not great situation at that point. The Destructive Revelry was obviously the nail in the coffin, but if Jon was just holding a land (which I was counting on to win that game), I think I had a reasonable but not great shot of attacking with TitI before Jon could kill me. I had Commandeer and Fatal Push in my hand, so my plan was to Fatal Push TitI at end step to bring it to 3 counters, then draw some combination of Time Warps or other spells to flip it and get the kill. I was also planning on holding blue cards for Commandeer, so that if Jon drew something like Boros Charm, I'd be able to not die. But when they have it they have it!
I think that both of these ideas are too "all in" on the Jace plan. In my mind, Jace is something to help our main game plan of taking a bunch of turns, not something to completely build around. For Disrupting Shoal, I don't think there are that many good targets, as the CMCs in our deck go much higher than most of the field. For fetchlands, I feel that 6 is a bit on the "too much" side, since we do tend to take damage in the early game and those last few points of life do matter sometimes. Temporal Mastery is one of the swingier cards in the deck, in that it's almost always the worst card you can see in your opening hand but often a card you'd like to topdeck, and I think that 4 is too many even if Jace is in the deck. Of course, I could be completely wrong about any or all of these points, since this is all based on gut instinct at this point.
I don't think that's enough of a concern that it should be a deckbuilding constraint. It's also next to impossible to do that in any splash build.
Truckis123 list is in the direction I would be playing, def. I'm just not too sure about the miser's Azcanta and the lack of Gigadrowses.
To be fair, I don't think running 6 fetchlands is all-in. You're running 4 already, 2 more shouldn't be much of a stretch, specially since there's not a lot of Choke around. All in would be something like 8 or 10, imo.
If you play a turn 4 Jace and Brainstorm Temporal to the top, I'm fairly certain that very few players would waste a whole turn Field of Ruining your plan. It gives you pretty much a virtual timewalk in the sense that they are taking their turn to hinder your plans, and taking time is pretty much the theme of this deck.
While I agree that Temporal Mastery is the worst card to start the game, it's pretty much the card you want to see the most past turn 2. It warrants a 4-of in my list because of that.
I would like also to argue that I'm not very experienced with the splashes outside of red of this deck, so maybe 3 would be fine in the UB list that you championed not a while ago.
I favor the mono-blue builds with this new BR, though. I like Truckis123's direction and will definitely explore that over the course of the next months.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
Edit: are we going to start including Flashfreeze in our SB to combat the early choke & boil along with other garbage red/green killers, say BBE 🤷♂️
Jace is good against TKS, but bad against Reality Smasher, so I think Eldrazi Tron is still decent in the meta. Probably colored tron decks are going to reduce their numbers in favor of Eldrazi Tron decks.
Also, I would like make something clear: don't be hellbent in the whole turn4 Jace thing. No one would ever do that in a game if it means you instantly lose the game. If I would draw a parallel, it would be going for a T4 Splinter Twin win when the opponent has open mana. If you make your argument for not playing Jace as taking the worst possible approach to play Jace, he will look like a bad card.
Please don't make a bad play and put the blame on the card.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
HOWEVER, we are a different style control deck and usually don't have 2UU lying around. I do feel that if we have the ability to drop Jace on turn 4 when we can brainstorm a Temporal Mastery back to the top to miracle next turn, we kind-of don't care if he dies. It's almost like our plan becomes:
Also, about the number of Jace. Probably looking to run 2-3 in the turns deck. He does not replace Dictate, maybe Mine/Search (although I'm high on Search right now because of the "ramp" nature of the card). I really want 4 Opt now, to increase the chance to miracle on their turn. Are we still looking to splash for removal/disruption (B) or good sideboard cards (W)? Seems like the "Jace" version wants to be mono-U so we can maximize on Gigadrowse.
List thoughts/outline:
4x Opt
4x Serum Visions
4x Gigadrowse
4x Exhaustion
4x Dictate of Kruphix
4x Time Warp
4x Temporal Mastery
3x Part the Waterveil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Search for Azcanta
2x Cryptic Command
These numbers are obviously a starting point, and should be tweaked. Lands would likely be 1x each Inkmoth, Mikokoro, maybe Gemstone Caverns(??) and the rest Islands; Hell, maybe even 1-3 Field of Ruin is right for a more controlling build. More or less opt, snapcaster, PtW, JtMS, Search, Cryptic are just fine. Including something else like commandeer, remand, howling mine, etc is totally fine! Tune to your meta, that's what its all about.
then that 4 mana card stuck in hand for the correct moment to play could be something else that makes you win
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
This is a great point to run less than 4 Jaces, actually. Since I've been based on As Foretold, I'll probably start with 2, altough I feel that 3 is the sweet spot.
Like hemur said, however, the turn 4 fog into miracle might be a really strong interaction, and is the sole argument to run 4 Jaces, I think.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
4 Field of Ruin
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tolaria West
1 Hallowed Fountain
8 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Plains
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 As Foretold
4 Time Warp
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Serum Visions
3 Gigadrowse
3 Path to Exile
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Wheel of Fate
1 Living End
1 Approach of the Second Sun
2 Nimble Obstructionist
3 Thing in the Ice
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Tormod's Crypt
When Jace hits, I'll probably go -1 Approach, -1 Cryptic +2 Jace. Then, if I want a third one, I'll take out one Wheel of Fortune. One of the strengths of this deck G1 is that most people think you're UW Control and play with more caution.]
Going a bunch of turns, having a full grip, a lot of extra lands and a fully loaded As Foretold is enough to make people forfeit as well.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
Hopefully this means a bug fix or at least bringing some attention to it.
Legacy: Turbo Depths -
Modern: Traverse Shadow -
Standard: Whatever's on top -
I agree with this completely. I think it's also pretty reasonable to do something like turn 5 Jace, bounce a threat, Gigadrowse a second threat, or turn 7 Jace and Exhaustion. Or sometimes you just let him set up your turn 5 miracle + mine and let him die. He doesn't have to be a turn 4 play, you don't have to 0 him every turn. There is power in that flexibility!
I posted a GP Toronto tournament report on reddit for your reading pleasure.
To piggyback on this thought train: I'm of the opinion that you definitely want to keep the inkmoth/PtW wincon in the deck since it lets you brainstorm with jace every turn to find your wincon (digging so much more effectively than we have in the past) and not have to worry about upticking Jace. In the list I posted earlier i took out the mines to make Jace space because of this.
Since I was a little bit bored, I did a hypergeometric distribution calculation on the chance to see Gemstone Caverns, when you have 2 on your deck. The calculation does not consider mulligans.
So, the chance to see exactly one Caverns in your starting hand is a little bit shy of 21%. The chance to see one or two is a little bit over 22%.
So if we plug this data in a binomial distribution and use a Student's t distribution to calculate the confidence interval, in average after 32 games you would have seen (7 +- 1) Gemstone Caverns for 95% accuracy. Looks like our friend is either VERY unlucky to only have seen that many Gemstone Caverns or he is not shuffling his deck enough times to reach a sufficiently random state.
OTOH: 2 Gemstone Caverns really seems the sweet spot. Running just 1 makes the probability of seeing one on your starting hand go down to 11.6% and going to three, soars it up to 28%, with the caveat of having a risk of seeing doubles on the starting hand to 31% and multiples across the game to be very likely to happens (something we do not want).
This post has been sponsored by my procrastination to finish a presentation. I hope you liked it.
Edit3: The calculation assumes a normal distribution approximation. To correctly calculate the confidence interval of a binomial distribution, it is a more complicated process. I also was pretty lax on the confidence intervals, as I just did a z=2 for 95%. That is a rough approximation.
Edit4: The chance to only see 4 Gemstone Caverns in 32 games is funnily, one in 33. This means that what happened on the GP for Mr. Wong happens only about 3% of the time. Talk about unlucky!
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
Oh, what a fool I am. I forgot completely that it only works in the draw. Yes, (4+-1) sounds about right. I guess Mr. Wong was just about average lucky, so no need to feel bad about being a lucksack.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
The bogles deck that won GP Toronto last weekend was running main deck Leyline of Sanctity; do we consider this an option when not splashing W?