MTG Salvation

I was tapped out. In this scenario, Remand would have lost me the game.

On disrupting shoal;

Much like commandeer, it works *very* well once you've got a mine effect down. If your hand is constantly filled with options and things to pitch, these effects are equivalent to a kind of Force of Will at that stage in the game.

However! Before that critical point in a game, and if you're struggling to land a mine effect, these 'pitch' cards get much worse and if you're forced into using one very early, it can drastically reduce your ability to close out that game in your favour as they are quite significant card disadvantage.

Both cards can be good in this deck. It's important to realise that they don't replace your core interaction spells. They work in flex spots only, and I'd hesitate before running more than one maindeck. One maindeck and one in the side is a reasonable use of space if you worry about combo and oppressive interaction. Shoal can even snag creatures :), but my pick is commandeer.

A fine consideration, but only in the right context of course.

Quote from purklefluff »

my pick is commandeer.

What does your list look like these days? Are you on the black splash?

Quote from herkamurjones »

Quote from purklefluff »

my pick is commandeer.

What does your list look like these days? Are you on the black splash?

Either black or white splash with the following equivalent builds

Main:
3x splash removal spell (path/push)
1x commandeer
Remainder is 'stock' with 11 warps, 2 cryptics, 7 "stall" spells and 7 mine effects. Usual suite of cantrips and 2 snapcaster.
Manabase as follows:
1x splash shockland
1x splash checkland
1x splash filterland
3x splash tangolands
4x blue fetchlands
Remainder is again 'stock' with 9 basic island, mikokoro and inkmoth rounding out the experience, plus the blue land that untaps legendary cards.

Simple swap with either colour.

White sideboard includes stony silence and leyline of sanctity.
Black sideboard runs collective brutality and leyline of the void.

Both have merits. Different metagames favour different answers.

Sure

My manabase has slowly evolved based on a couple of ideas:

1) I need a fetchable untapped white/black source for the early game in emergencies (shockland)

2) I need a decent rate of topdecking a splash colour mana source (this accounts for the total number of options rather than anything specific)

3) after the third turn, I ideally don't want to be taking any damage from needing an untapped source (tangolands, checkland, filterland)

I play out my manabase in a fairly reactive way based on what's in my hand but I tend to prioritise playing and fetching basics, so that my tangolands come online quickly. That way I'm fetching tundra or underground sea which is much better I'm sure you'll agree.
The other thing is having fetchable sources. If i want to play supreme verdict (which is a potential sideboard option) I want to be able to fetch that fourth land untapped without too much downside.

The downsides are obvious, dropping a tapped tangoland on turn 1 so that your following land drops are untapped leaves you without a turn 1 cantrip, but then (especially if you won the die roll) It's usually correct to hold your serum visions until you know what you're playing against.

On another different note, I've been messing around online with UR twinless-twin. It's essentially an old UR twin deck, unchanged except for the 4x twins became 3x Kiki and 1x roast.
I bring this up because there's an important facet to how that deck performs (and it performs well!) that we are sorely missing in this deck. Twinless-twin runs about 4 one-mana counterspells maindeck, in the rough configuration of 2x spell snare, 1x spell pierce and 1x dispel. They each have slightly different roles (for example snare has two copies because it's there to disrupt your opponent's turn 2 play when you're on the draw with one mana open and thus you want more of them in your deck. Pierce and dispel are there as protection for the combo that doesn't cost 2 mana).
The strength of the deck rests heavily on its ability to both interact on those early turns and to protect the combo in a mana efficient way. Now obviously we aren't the same deck, but I've been thinking of late that if we're considering more cantrips (who's benefits provide noticeably diminishing returns) then surely we should also consider instead of extra cantrips, some extra 1-mana interaction.

There's definitely a few matchups where we'd benefit from this approach. Burn, coco, ad nauseam etc.

I think the biggest challenge with any deck is wanting to avoid dead draws while still being able to combat a large percentage of the field. While extra cantrips like Opt are not providing us disruption or combo protection they are almost always relevant in ways that certain counterspells aren't. That's part of why we play Remand (if at all) maindeck over other more narrow 2 mana counters, because versatility is almost always better. That all being said, Turns is my first combo-control deck (just play GB Midrange and Abzan Aristocrat Combo otherwise) and so my understanding of how best to let the deck evolve is very limited. I like the idea of providing more disruption as, in my experience, we do best when we can wait as long as possible before comboing and interaction provides us a way to have more turns to draw mine effects and extra turn spells.

Couple random thoughts/questions for those more experienced players:

• Thoughts on cards like Flashfreeze or Ceremonious Rejection as sideboard cards? They can be houses against the right decks, but not sure if they are worth a slot
• I'm currently running 7 mines with 1 of them being Jace Beleren. Having a love-hate relationship with Jace. Is a 3rd Howling Mine better, or should I just go down to 6 mines?
• Opt has been a lot of fun in testing, but I have yet to try it in an actual tourney.
• Turns can be a rough deck to pilot optimally. Considering entering it into one of the SCG Regional events, but am worried about fatigue when playing 9 rounds. Tips on how to avoid/reduce that?

I have decided to go to the Cincinatti Open next weekend but I am conflicted on which list I should be running. I want to lean on a more traditional build (from a few months ago) because I have more experience with it but I have amazing success this past week with a random build I tested and cant put down (it is too successsful).




Several weeks ago I watched Corroto (at an FNM) hit both of his boomerangs (he only runs 2) early and proceded to use them to bounce his opponents only land on both turn 2 and turn 3. Corroto then flashed in a snapcaster on turn 4 to keep them stuck repeating turn 1 for a fourth time (brutal). Locking people out of their ability to effectively play the game is what turns does best. This mana denial strategy seems to do similar things. I was reminded of a deck which a friend build many years ago. And Turns uses the same engines as Turbo-Bounce.... So I decided to test a version which replaced all of the stall with bounce and mana denial:



I logged in to xmage and went 5-0 against rated opponents. After a mighty impressive online showing I took it to FNM and only lost to Grixis Death Shadow (he wrecked my hand hard with discard all three hands). I have not stumbled on such an effective build in a while and I would ask that someone else on here give it a go and tell me wether I am nutz or not.

I haven't had the chance to test it agaisnt Affinity or Burn but I suspect that it will get floored just as hard as the normal build since those decks operate just fine on only one or 2 mana. So I doubt this is an upgrade there.

Several times last night at FNM I had opponents scoop to oppressive board state alone. Watching me combo out and start bouncing all of their permanents as I rip through turns. Before I even draw into a win con, they call it. Saves time and gives me longer/more breaks in between rounds.

I am also looking for advice about locking down my sideboard choices, but first I want to get my mainboard straightened out. Does anyone have any input on a bounce heavy version? Have any of you tried versions like this in he past?

P.S. I also tested Quash and it performed well above expectations. I was hoping to use it to good effect against our local Scapeshift player. But instead got paired against abzan creature combo and it was a total blowout when used against Collected Company.

Looks spicy. I'm sure in our current meta, this actually presents a reasonable angle to attack the current big three (scapeshift, shadow and eldrazi).

Boomerang has even seen tier 1 modern play before (UR Twin used to run three maindeck), but there are issues:

- boomerang effects are bad on the draw, and bad against things like mana acceleration (birds, elves etc)
- they are also bad against spell-based combo. Storm etc.

Instances when it's ok:

- Decks which stress their mana and try to play a tempo based game.
- Gx tron
- decks which try to force a single expensive creature (tasigur etc) as their path to victory.
- Scapeshift (potentially)

The idea is very all-in on winning the die roll if I'm honest. There will definitely be cases where you can out-bounce an opponent trying to play their game-plan but most decks have maindeck ways to get around this, such as one-mana threats, discard, hexproof threats, token generators, a low curve, mana-generating creatures, rituals and things like avoiding the need to pay mana at all (hollow-vengevine decks, affinity and burning-tree zoo).

The question needs to be raised; which matchups are you solving by going all-in on bounce effects? Are they the matchups you'd already have a decent shot at? If so, one needs to wonder if incorporating a different kind of interaction would help the deck to succeed.

I'm going to try UB and UR more extensively over the next few weeks. I'm quite taken by cards like Pyroclasm and anger of the gods, as well as the ability to incorporate snapcaster in a more proactive manner. Not sure where it will take me exactly, but I feel like there are options in both colours which are good for the current meta. UB is a known quantity and currently I feel it's potentially better than UW but who knows. Leyline of sanctity and stony silence are serious bombs.

Oh, and I'm still pushing for running more one-mana counterspells in the maindeck. We currently lack good early interaction and I feel like this is a reasonable direction to test.

Been quite awhile since I've been on here.I've currently been brewing a UB version using underworld dreams and fate unraveler as the wincon. I figure if I'm going to keep the opponent drawing cards then I might as well punish them for it. Dark deal and ancestral vision work very well with dreams and unraveler.
It's an odd deck to pilot, I'd like to smooth it out a bit. I'll post it soon, ive got a few slots I haven't found a home for anything, sideboard is ok but could use some fresh ideas. Mana base is atrocious. Lol
Edit: pulled the deck out. Here's the list.

I think brutality should be mainboard, I don't know what to cut though.
I was looking at master of the feast or laboratory maniac as options too.
Sideboard is a cards to try board mainly. Leylines are really good, how to fit them MB idk, same for relic.
The discard I'm not really feeling fits here. To many times I wished it was something else when I had it.

What do you think? Any suggestions? Particularly early interactions.
Edit: days didn't work, had to use dark deal instead.

Biggest problems I see with running Underworld Dreams and Fate Unraveler are:

• Triple B for Underworld Dreams is a little hard to get to.
• Ideally we're the ones drawing all of the cards so punishing them for drawing isn't likely to help that much. I see at most 5 damage coming through from these
• They are terrible top decks that don't impact the early game

I like the idea, I recently thought about using Ob Nixilis Reignited and the ultimate for a similar type of finisher, but one that triggers off of our own draws too. However, I think it's way too slow and doesn't work well for Turns.

Thank you for the positive encouragement.

I played the bounce list again last night on xmage for a second 5-0 stint against random rated opponents. Last night however all my opponents were running rogue lists and I didn't get to play against any Teir 1 decks.

So far I have noticed that it seems that when I'm on the play its best to bounce lands and when I'm on the draw I usually end up bouncing their threats. And it has been very, very nice to always have a late game bounce in hand to deal with pesky permanents like Ensnaring Bridge.

I had someone Thoughtseize Part the Waterveil and then Surgical it, so I had to win with 10 separate attacks with my nexus since I couldn't seem to draw Jace. Since then I decided to put back in Thassa, having that Plan C win con available every hand is a must. Like a gun or a fire extinguisher: Id rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

I also had a hand where planting a Howling Mine on turn 4 and bouncing their land for the third time happened. It felt pretty good to plant an engine and still make them repeat their first turn for the fourth time.... so good that I have to add a second Howling Mine. Testing will likely push me back toward running a full set of 4 because the whole "they get to draw first" is a little moot when they are stuck replaying their first land over and over. It costing one less mana than Dictate is pretty huge when all I am trying to do is keep drawing bounce spells until its time to start warping.

Is there another way I can bounce lands? Am I stuck with just boomerang, Eye of Nowhere and Cryptic Command? I keep thinking of old bounce I used to play and when I look it up ont he gatherer, it's all nonland permants. I would love to add more 2-mana bounce instead of the Spreading Seas

I believe the -1 Serum Visions is temporary until I decide what else to cut. It pains me to not run 4.




This build incentivizes me to fit my 3 Chalice of the Void back into the sideboard, but I haven't found the space yet.

Please if any of you have some free time; test yourself some bounce-turns and see how you like it. I do appreciate feedback from any of you with an opinion, but your words will carry more weight if you sleeve up some bounce for a few hands before you get back to me. That way I can multiply how much testing im getting in.

Quote from Zalmon »

Biggest problems I see with running Underworld Dreams and Fate Unraveler are:

• Triple B for Underworld Dreams is a little hard to get to.
• Ideally we're the ones drawing all of the cards so punishing them for drawing isn't likely to help that much. I see at most 5 damage coming through from these
• They are terrible top decks that don't impact the early game

I like the idea, I recently thought about using Ob Nixilis Reignited and the ultimate for a similar type of finisher, but one that triggers off of our own draws too. However, I think it's way too slow and doesn't work well for Turns.

If Ob Nixilis Reignited costed fewer mana (and came out with fewer loyalty to balance it?) I would already be playing him. His +1 is ok, but his ult is a great wincon. Lucky for us the 2 mana "Ob Nixilis: who ults for the win" did get printed, if you want to run it look to Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Her ult is amazing in our deck.

I really like where your list is going. you seem to have alot of inevitability but, Underworld Dreams is triple black (ouch) and Fate Unraveler costs 4 mana. The rules ive been using for wincons are:
costs 3 mana or less and passivley wins you the game over time. Jace Beleren, Thassa, God of the Sea, Delver of secrets, Geist of Saint Traft
or costs a bunch on mana but effectively wins you the game that turn. Part the waterveil, Psychic Spiral

If you are looking passive damage you might be better with Ebony Owl Netsuke or Liliana's Caress It is not exactly efficient but if you keep them exhausted and remand everything they cast, they will have trouble getting cards out of their hand. If you modify your build so that your cramming 4 Jace and +2 him every turn, im sure you could find ways of giving your opponents additional cards. Especially since the game designers consider it a drawback. It is a shame Prosperity isn't modern legal or we would all be playing it.

The problem with builds like the one I suggest is when they come up against affinity and the opponent vomits 6 cards onto the board on the first turn. Makes my Waste Not deck very unhappy.

Quote from Tanarax »

Thank you for the positive encouragement.

I played the bounce list again last night on xmage for a second 5-0 stint against random rated opponents. Last night however all my opponents were running rogue lists and I didn't get to play against any Teir 1 decks.

So far I have noticed that it seems that when I'm on the play its best to bounce lands and when I'm on the draw I usually end up bouncing their threats. And it has been very, very nice to always have a late game bounce in hand to deal with pesky permanents like Ensnaring Bridge.

I had someone Thoughtseize Part the Waterveil and then Surgical it, so I had to win with 10 separate attacks with my nexus since I couldn't seem to draw Jace. Since then I decided to put back in Thassa, having that Plan C win con available every hand is a must. Like a gun or a fire extinguisher: Id rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

I also had a hand where planting a Howling Mine on turn 4 and bouncing their land for the third time happened. It felt pretty good to plant an engine and still make them repeat their first turn for the fourth time.... so good that I have to add a second Howling Mine. Testing will likely push me back toward running a full set of 4 because the whole "they get to draw first" is a little moot when they are stuck replaying their first land over and over. It costing one less mana than Dictate is pretty huge when all I am trying to do is keep drawing bounce spells until its time to start warping.

Is there another way I can bounce lands? Am I stuck with just boomerang, Eye of Nowhere and Cryptic Command? I keep thinking of old bounce I used to play and when I look it up ont he gatherer, it's all nonland permants. I would love to add more 2-mana bounce instead of the Spreading Seas

I believe the -1 Serum Visions is temporary until I decide what else to cut. It pains me to not run 4.

Bounce-Turns v2.3Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
1 Cascading Cataracts 1 Inkmoth Nexus 1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea 3 Glacial Fortress 4 Flooded Strand 1 Hallowed Fountain 1 Prairie Stream 2 Mystic Gate 9 Island 3 Serum Visions 4 Dictate of Kruphix 2 Howling Mine 1 Day's Undoing 1 Jace Beleren 1 Thassa, God of the Sea	4 Boomerang 4 Eye of Nowhere 3 Spreading Seas 4 Cryptic Command 4 Time Warp 4 Temporal Mastery 2 Part the Waterveil	Sideboard: 2 Stony Silence 2 Supreme Verdict 2 Riot Control 2 Commandeer 2 Thing in the Ice 1 Grafdigger's Cage 4 Leyline of Sanctity

This build incentivizes me to fit my 3 Chalice of the Void back into the sideboard, but I haven't found the space yet.

Please if any of you have some free time; test yourself some bounce-turns and see how you like it. I do appreciate feedback from any of you with an opinion, but your words will carry more weight if you sleeve up some bounce for a few hands before you get back to me. That way I can multiply how much testing im getting in.

Hey so when I first picked up the deck in like 2013//14, I bought a playset of Eye of Nowhere to complement my Boomerangs and try to kill the manabase. Since then I have switched to a mix of Boomerang with Squelch or Nimble Obstructionist. While Eye works fine against...any permanent...I would suggest that the cantrip counters to activated and triggered abilities is much better. These can poop on manlands, fetchlands, and Westvale Abbey etc.

I can get behind the quad Boomerang, but back it up with some counter play.

I was already thinking about Shadow of Doubt as an option, but Squelch might be better positioned to also hit other things beside fetches.

I agree that Eye of Nowhere is a bit one dimensional since it is stuck at sorcery speed, but I would still like to find a third two mana bounce option. That way I can run the full 10-11 that the math tells me I should. I need to spend some time on the gatherer.

Thank you and keep the suggestions coming.

Here's the UB version I've been trying lately that isn't too weird.

Downpour has been amazing! Combined with early frost it's almost a guarantee to get there. Fizzling is another story.
Kami is what I switch for TitI after SB usually.

I've kept the mana cost low so I can play multiple spells per turn and to be able to use snapcaster frequently. It's more interaction but it takes longer to win either through snapcaster beats or Jace mill. Makes fizzling easier to deal with though since usually my hand is full of disruption.

Writing this as my last 2 Modern Tuesdays ended up 4-0 and 3-0-1(split) with my mono blue list.

I had 2 different list since I was trying out +4 opt this week.

Lets start with the 4-0 from last week. Small pool of people (around 12) with only 1 matchup I was hoping to dodge(Merfolk).

Last Week list(No Opt)




Last Week
1 - Planewalkers Tron (2-0) (Remand allstars)
2 - Living End (2-0) (Remand and Chalice allstars)
3 - GDS (2-1) (Chalice and Titi allstars)
4 - Eldrazi Tron (Titi and tempo cards)



This week
Bigger pool of around 18. Was hoping to dodge storms, merfolk and burn.

This week list(With Opt)
-2 Remand
-1 Cryptic Command
-1 Gemstone Caverns (always forgot the trigger when it applied but more often was a colorless non basic land)


1 - Storm (2-0) Inexperienced Storm players (he had just bough the cards when I was in line and he missed lethal on game 2 )
2 - Bant Spirit (2-0) (Titi won)
3 - Elves (2-1) (Titi wonx2)
4 - Infect (Split - 2-0'ed me in friendly match)

I love Opt with Titi. It lets us flip him during our opponents turn more often.

I have a more detailed version of this post but I felt it was too much text for Tuesday Night Moderns. If you want more details lmk

Quote from zdarketethemighty »

I have never won a single game against bant spirits. How did you do that?

Interesting...

A guy in my area was on the spirits deck for about 6 months and took it to a very high finish in a large modern tournament during his time on the deck.

I faced him numerous times on the deck (I myself playing various different decks) but all that time I managed to rack up a 100% winrate against him, including with turns.

I did lose individual games, of course, but matches all went my way.

This was back when I was on straight monoblue maindeck with a splash of white for the sideboard. I remember supreme verdict being a pretty great card in the matchup if I was able to force my way past selfless spirit. Engineered explosives was also semi-decent.

Exhaustion and cryptic were the MVPs I think. Tapping was a decent way to get around their protection effects. It's been a while though so I can't remember my specific play choices.

That said, on paper it looks pretty rough because of spell queller. Without queller it looks a lot more favourable. Thankfully they don't really pack ways to interact with the 'combo' spells in our deck besides maybe a negate or two.

You've got me wondering now. I think I'm gonna have to test this matchup again for posterity.

My buddy runs a bant spirits list and he's 100% (all pre-board matches and 1 fnm match) vs me. Possibly because he knows the match-up so well due to years of testing vs turns, but could just be the explosiveness of the small creatures and plethora of counterspells.

Quote from zdarketethemighty »

Mausoleum Wanderer is like cursecatcher on steroids. Rattlechains makes that they can play everything eot. That by itself made exhaustion pointless. Also T2 geist is almost unbeatable.

Yeah sounds horrible!

I guess thing in the ice plays a part. At the time, I was running maindeck Thing instead of mines. Must have given me an edge.

Could be our worst matchup?

I haven't had (made) time since FNM to put down a brief report and still don't have time but thought I'd fill in a spot, which I can edit later. Last Friday I went 3-0-1 splitting the final round. The previous Friday was a 3-1 finish losing round 1 to bad keeps and terrible shuffling (also merfolk). The deck is really strong and I think it just needs more exposure to get really tuned.
Everyone that I've played agains and around knows what the deck is, so that's not the problem. Not enough people are playing it and adding to the reflection pool 🤔
Hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow to put some content in this post!