So I was wondering what you guys think about the theory of cantrips to land ratio in Turns. 23 lands seems to be the "magic" number but as a combo-control list can we add 2 Opt in place of 1 land (and 1 of anything other than a land)? I still see Serum Visions setting up lands on the first turn so would adding the Opts really enable us to remove a land for something the deck already does?
Should we Opt for the increase in spells or is that not an option for us?
Trying a new approach with coming up with a sideboard for Turns. I'm currently working in Mono Blue. Basically it looks like this:
1.) Taking the top 8 decks in Modern right now, according to mtggoldfish, along with a handful of other popular and local meta decks
2.) For each matchup making a list of the types of effects (bounce, removal, creature counters, counters, blockers, alt win-cons, land hate, graveyard/library hate) that are strong against those decks
3.) Based on that list going through and determine what cards are available that correctly achieve those effects for the matchup
4.) Narrow the list down to 15 or less unique cards that achieve those goals.
5.) Come up with sideboard guide for matchups.
I'll post my results with budget and non budget versions
Turns needs to hit Land drops every turn. We cant afford to go less than 23 lands. You want to sv / opt combo pieces or interaction not lands
This is what I'm thinking as well.
See the spoilers for Iconic Masters yet? The new Cryptic Command looks pretty sweet. Anybody think this set will have an impact on prices? I have yet to pick any up yet so would it be better to wait until the set drops?
We should see some lower prices for things like AV and Cryptic that are either already solid inclusions or lowers the bar of entry for those of us wanting to try them out.
Not really relevant but I was searching through some cards online and came across a gem I haven't seen in a long time; Mana Short. I know it's not Modern legal but would it make a large impact if it were? I figure it would replace Exhaustion, or perhaps add to it and change the deck somewhat, and become a guaranteed 4 of but would something like this push the power level that much?
At first glance it seems weaker than Exhaustion or Gigadrowse though, since it doesnt affect their creatures. At 3 cmc they probably have already played something relevant on the table. If it cantripped like Cryptic it would feel a lot more intriguing, but as it stands I wouldn't test it
No affecting creatures is kind of a downer. I guess it would be brought in against pure control if anything. I've become quite the fan towards Exhaustion based effects since I picked up Turns so finding something like this was neat.
Anybody see Perilous Voyage yet? Is this playable for those of us who were already playing Boomerang and/or Snapback. It can't hit lands like Boomerang and it's not free like Snapback but scry 2 and a bounce seems nice. Thoughts?
A little off topic for Turns but I did manage to get a couple paper games in at the local shop today. The shop owner played Infect against my EldraziTron list and only managed to get one win in. Granted his list is missing a couple cards but the second match we played I didn't see a single Chalice of the Void and still managed to win the match. He did flop the first match when I landed CoTV both games on turn two but we also didn't use sideboards. Sans Gitaxian Probe why does it seem like Infect has lost some power? The owner described the deck as being more of a glass cannon now but it still has turn two nut draws. I guess what I'm asking is what exactly changed in the deck or meta to knock it down a couple notches.
Anybody see Perilous Voyage yet? Is this playable for those of us who were already playing Boomerang and/or Snapback. It can't hit lands like Boomerang and it's not free like Snapback but scry 2 and a bounce seems nice. Thoughts?
I like the looks of Voyage. Bounce can be very helpful at slowing other decks down and having more scry effects to set up temporal is likely very good for us. Not sure how big of an impact it will end up having.
why does it seem like Infect has lost some power? The owner described the deck as being more of a glass cannon now but it still has turn two nut draws. I guess what I'm asking is what exactly changed in the deck or meta to knock it down a couple notches.
I think the two biggest hits are the prevelance of discard and removal (thanks Death's Shadow decks). With the printing of Fatal Push any deck running black has 3-4 B answers to anything Infect plays and with discard being common as well pump spells and creatures can be stripped before winning. UW control is also a popular deck that gets Path in the 1 Mana answer slot and has counterspells instead of discard to provide disruption
Anybody see Perilous Voyage yet? Is this playable for those of us who were already playing Boomerang and/or Snapback. It can't hit lands like Boomerang and it's not free like Snapback but scry 2 and a bounce seems nice. Thoughts?
Playable: Yes
Better than Boomerang: ??
I have been disappointed in what the last several sets have given us. But Perilous Voyage has definitely caught my attention as a potential upgrade from Boomerang (which I was already running as a 2 of in some versions of my lists). When I start thinking about its drawbacks I can admit that once in a while I do bounce my own mine effects in response to Abrupt Decay. But I think I would value the sometimes scry 2 as a higher value than the drawback of losing that.
What I think will be missed much more is being on the play and bouncing their only land on our second turn. Being able to set them back and effectively (close enough anyways) Time Walk ourselves on into turn three while holding them back at turn one is huge. I know some of you may consider it win more (which in a way it is), after testing, it feels really good to pull that far ahead of them that early. I have compared it to sticking your arm out right as they fire the starting pistol and pushing backward on the guy next you. You should get off to a great start, him.... not so much.
Losing this ability to leap ahead that early might mean Perilous Voyage does not have as much of an edge on Boomerang as I think it does. I look forward to testing it. Scry 2 is very powerful. I have been sold on the idea that by Condescend and Serum Visions.
Here are some random thoughts I've had after brainstorming with Opt in the format. I really feel that Turns wants to jam the full playset, along with the max number of Serum Visions as well, into mono blue. The sideboard is still a work in progress, which I'll detail below.
Really need to maximize the blue sources, but with four more cantrips, cutting down to 22 lands should be fine. Cut down to a single copy of Inkmoth Nexus, but might add the second back in and take out the Gemstone Caverns instead. Oboro could easily become a checkland or filterland if Engineered Explosives makes the cut; Minamo can at least interact with Mikokoro and Clique. Heck, Inkmoth might come out entirely to ensure smoother drawing of blue sources; it's only in there to help against infinite life, and we have sideboard options if we do face such a deck.
All the Remands are gone, which reduces our tempo/interactivity, but with the addition of the playset of Opt, digging for what we need, when we need it has never looked better. Twelve extra turn effects might be excessive; it could end up better to shave one or two (or possibly the fourth Gigadrowse) to make room for a pair of Snapback in the main. Will playtest first to see how this main deck feels, though.
Two copies of Cryptic should be plenty, especially with a pair of Snapcaster Mage in the main now, and Opt to dig more effectively.
As far as sideboard options go…
Chalice of the Void is no longer included, since Opt makes dropping it at one hurt way more than it used to. Will have to compensate for matches like Burn and Storm. (0)
Thing in the Ice is better than ever with Opt in the deck. (2-3)
EE can only ever hit for 0 or 1 in this deck, but most of what we care about hitting early is in this range. D&T is definitely an exception, though, so maybe Ratchet Bomb could go here instead if that deck becomes more prevalent. Adding a few checklands might not hurt, but I don’t think this would be consistent enough without a lot more producers of a second color. However, I will test around with this. (In UB, EE would be an auto-include for me.) (0-2)
Snapback can be cast as early as we need, and the surprise factor is good. It can also be used to transform Thing in the Ice more quickly, as well as recycle the triggers of SCM and Vendilion Clique. (2)
Commandeer is a haymaker with its ability to steal planeswalkers, redirect burn and removal, and foil anything else that isn’t a creature. It’s only realistically castable by losing three of your own cards, though, so I’m not as sold on this. (0-1)
Redirect does most of what Commandeer does, but is costed much better for early interaction, especially in multiples. This is the card I want to bring in the most against Burn, and it has relevant applications against other decks, especially BGx and (lol) the mirror. (0-2)
Hurkyl’s Recall is a way to live against Affinity and Lantern Control, and it can also bounce Chalices back from EldraziTron. (2-3)
Grafdigger’s Cage requires no other mana commitment, and (besides Living End) shuts off most graveyard and Coco/Chord-style decks. (1-2)
Pithing Needle can slow Tron and Affinity decks down somewhat, as well as do great work against Coco/Chord decks and Lantern Control. (1-2)
Vendilion Clique is a great surprise threat that can close out games quickly in this build, and its ability to disrupt or filter draws is exactly what we need in a few matches. (2)
Dragon’s Claw is really good against Burn, so if you’re expecting it in above average numbers, you can’t do better than this (especially since their targeted removal is drawn to these instead of your Mine effects). Not bad against Storm either. (0-2)
Sun Droplet is more versatile, but much slower than Dragon’s Claw. I don’t plan on playing this at first, but I’m not above testing it out if this build doesn’t cut it. Honestly not a huge fan of the card, though. (0)
Elixir of Immortality...well, I don't feel we need to worry about getting milled out. The ability to gain a lot of life without much investment, as well as the reshuffle, probably work well with all of the cantrips. However, I don't see anything I'm bringing this in against besides Burn, and we have better and more versatile cards to go there anyway. (0)
Mindbreak Trap is only really good against Storm; even against decks where we might be able to free-cast this, it’s almost always as a one-for-one. (0)
As far as one and two mana counterspells go, I’d rather play a proactive game than a reactive one, plain and simple. Way too often we get overloaded on these, or they are just a turn too late. In addition, we are softer to Chalice than ever with Opt in the mix, so making this even worse isn’t something I want to be doing. If mono-U can’t get the job done, UB with its mix of Fatal Push, IoK, and Collective Brutality (and possibly Surgical Extraction) would be where to go from there. The only exception I am currently willing to make is with Spell Snare, since so many things that slow or kill us early are CMC 2, and Snapback can help keep Snare relevant, worst-case. (0-3)
Perilous Voyage looks really good, but I don't feel it's optimal for us. All we really care about bouncing is creatures, and not being able to rescue Snapcaster or Clique or recycle their triggers or cast it basically for free really makes PV seem worse in comparison. (0)
So it's good, no doubts there. It makes thing in the ice far better, this being perhaps the single biggest reason to run the card.
It helps us trim a land maybe, and can enable some temporal mastery shenanigans in opponent's turn.
However, downsides:
1) if we trim on instant speed interaction like remand or whatever else, the instant speed dig from opt gets much worse. The card is at its best if you can hold up a counterspell/interaction and then if they don't do anything nasty, you cantrip. Digging into interaction at instant speed is also decent. Without this angle, the card is significantly diminished and less worth a slot in your deck as you'll just be casting it at sorcery speed. Control wants it, we might not.
2) going up to 7 or 8 cantrips means less chalice in the sideboard, which has two problems. Firstly, you get preyed on by chalice decks now, which opens us up to eldrazi tron in a way that previously didn't exist. Secondly, without chalice (and presumably without leyline of sanctity?) your grixis/gbx death's shadow matchup really takes a hard dive. By dropping your own chalices and making yourself weak to them, you've worsened your matchup against the two best decks in the format. I'd say this was objectively the wrong direction to take.
All this leaves me unsure of how to treat the inclusion of opt in the deck. It could quite reasonably have a spot, but not at the sacrifice of serum visions. I would also think twice about building the deck such that we have to drop chalice, as it's a very potent sideboard option for us. I don't think there's an easy option honestly, but I'll be testing different builds over the coming weeks.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
So it's good, no doubts there. It makes thing in the ice far better, this being perhaps the single biggest reason to run the card.
It helps us trim a land maybe, and can enable some temporal mastery shenanigans in opponent's turn.
However, downsides:
1) if we trim on instant speed interaction like remand or whatever else, the instant speed dig from opt gets much worse. The card is at its best if you can hold up a counterspell/interaction and then if they don't do anything nasty, you cantrip. Digging into interaction at instant speed is also decent. Without this angle, the card is significantly diminished and less worth a slot in your deck as you'll just be casting it at sorcery speed. Control wants it, we might not.
2) going up to 7 or 8 cantrips means less chalice in the sideboard, which has two problems. Firstly, you get preyed on by chalice decks now, which opens us up to eldrazi tron in a way that previously didn't exist. Secondly, without chalice (and presumably without leyline of sanctity?) your grixis/gbx death's shadow matchup really takes a hard dive. By dropping your own chalices and making yourself weak to them, you've worsened your matchup against the two best decks in the format. I'd say this was objectively the wrong direction to take.
All this leaves me unsure of how to treat the inclusion of opt in the deck. It could quite reasonably have a spot, but not at the sacrifice of serum visions. I would also think twice about building the deck such that we have to drop chalice, as it's a very potent sideboard option for us. I don't think there's an easy option honestly, but I'll be testing different builds over the coming weeks.
That seems like a very accurate assessment of where Opt stands. I have to point out in the past there have been some viable versions of this deck that ran sleight of hand in addition to serum visions. It may be a reasonable place to start when searching for a new "Optimal" build. I do remember watching these videos that Corbin Hosler made and thinking "He sure does draw a lot of cards"
He spends the first 2-3 turns just trying to draw as many cards as possible, which makes his build that much more consistent. Although he has to sacrifice his early game interaction to do it, it made his combo come together more consistently and once he got to combotown having those extra draws helped him keep going. In fact he states that he chose Spreading Seas over Remand so that mid combo he could keep drawing cards. The build is abit out of date but it should be a reasonable place to start when testing Opt.
The single biggest reason to run Opt is that it makes the deck more consistent. Including it basically doubles the chances of having a meaningful turn one play. Above any other benefit, this is the most important.
Later in the game, it helps far more than Remand ever did. The fact that Remand is almost purely reactive means there are many times where they can be too late or too slow, or simply get stranded in-hand as bulk, especially when we're trying to go off. Since the decks we are typically worst against are the fastest ones, I'd much rather be greasing my deck with Opt to hit the more meaningful cards more quickly. Remand has been the worst card in the deck for me for awhile, and I won't miss it since I want to be playing as proactively as possible. Opt's ability to help hit turn two Mine or Gigadrowse is far more important to me in those matches.
The ability to hit the miracle draw for Temporal Mastery is also very good, since this can make us a full turn faster. Last night, I put in about twelve games between rounds at FNM. In one game, I miracled Temporal Mastery three turns in a row (a first), and two other times I did it twice in a row. In two of them, I went off basically on turn three because of this. This makes our deck better against the entire field, including Shadow decks and such. Incidentally, we can Opt during our own upkeep to look a card deeper if we really needed to, say, Gigadrowse the opponent down first at their end of turn. Speaking of which...
We still have plenty to do at instant speed in this deck. Cryptic, Dictate, Gigadrowse, Temporal Mastery, Snapcaster Mage, and a number of commonly-played sideboard cards are enough to justify Opt on this basis already. It's hard to overstate how relevant it is to be able to see what your opponent is doing before you act when you can, and the power of leaving blue mana open with cards in hand is also great to psych opponents out.
Flipping Thing in the Ice more consistently can be nice, but since Titi isn't even a maindeck card, I wouldn't claim that this is the main reason to run Opt. It's still very strong though, and who knows, maybe we'll see some people trying them out in the main. I'm too wary of Fatal Push to do so, but at least it makes this option more viable.
As far as Chalice goes...since the most important aspect of Opt is the strength of our turn one options, Chalice (at least without Simian Spirit Guide) doesn't stuff us before we can set up at least once. This isn't a deck like Burn or Gx Tron where a Chalice set to one means you're basically screwed unless you draw the nuts. True, having eight spells it hits instead of four (I don't count Gigadrowse, since you can replicate through it) could hurt, but I don't feel this is enough of a reason not to max out on Opt, especially since ETron isn't fast enough most times to be really scary. Post-board, cards like Hurkyl's Recall and Engineered Explosives can help out as well, and Titi triggers even if the cantrips are countered.
Now I could be wrong about not playing our own copies of Chalice; zero is a perfectly viable value in a lot of matches. At one, they might mess with our cantrips, but if they shut off enough key cards early, this could still be worth it. I personally just don't like tripping over my own deck, but I will freely admit that Chalice is still very worth considering.
I agree that we shouldn't be cutting Serum Visions for Opt, but my instincts and preliminary testing point to Opt being amazing in U-Turns. Once it becomes legal, I'll probably shelve Gx Tron for awhile to get some better reps in with this deck. I'm really excited after what little I experienced last night. I'm also excited to see how the UB players work in Opt as well.
I follow most of your reasoning, but I think it is cognitive dissonance dismissing Remand as 'bulk' but downplaying countering your own Opt/Serum Vision with Chalice of the Void. Remand be cycled giving enough mana.
Without early interaction (like remand) the fast match ups get even worse.
Cycling Remand against fast decks for net tempo loss is not what we want to be doing to win. The early interaction we want against the fast decks that beat us is the stuff we pack that actually slows them down, like Gigadrowse and Exhaustion, and the sideboard suite (ie more fast interaction that is actually relevant) that makes it even better. We also want the best lines to win as quickly as possible. Opt helps make this all happen. Remand can...but more often doesn't.
I'm saying this as someone who has been playing the deck off and on for close to three years at this point. I'm fully willing to admit I'm wrong if everyone gets some reps and, through rigorous testing, that the trade-off isn't better or worth it. In my earliest of impressions, Opt is incredible. Please playtest both ways with an open mind and post all about it so we can together tune out the best versions of this deck.
I made my case about Chalice both with and against more one-mana cantrips, and all of it still applies, so I won't repeat myself here. I do agree that of any of the numerous things I've posted about recently, this topic is the most contentious, so please playtest along and see how everything works out.
As an aside, I am definitely cutting Gemstone Caverns from the list for another blue-producing land. The number of times being a colorless mana source has literally cost me games versus the number of times I've lucked it out is probably 4:1 or more. I lost two games in a row last night because I was a single blue short of being able to Gigadrowse enough to drop Dictate and survive into going off.
I'd like to pick you up on one point you made, if I may.
Your comment that we've got plenty of instant speed things to hold up while holding up opt; the examples you gave (with the exception of cryptic) don't tend to be cards you'd hold up and not cast. For example, dictate. Sure it's instant but damn if you've got an available window you slam that thing down like it's 1999. You won't be casting opt instead for example, so having both opt and dictate in your hand and 3 mana available doesn't give you any kind of choice, you just play dictate.
That was my only complaint with your logic. Instants that work with Opt are those that offer interaction (not just "being instant"). That's why control loves the card and it might not fit as well in this deck.
Still, as I said. I'll test the card. But if it doesn't work too well with chalice, chalice will win. The card is too powerful.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Your comment that we've got plenty of instant speed things to hold up while holding up opt; the examples you gave (with the exception of cryptic) don't tend to be cards you'd hold up and not cast. For example, dictate. Sure it's instant but damn if you've got an available window you slam that thing down like it's 1999. You won't be casting opt instead for example, so having both opt and dictate in your hand and 3 mana available doesn't give you any kind of choice, you just play dictate.
Now in the example you've given, I agree completely; there's not much we'd rather do than jam a Dictate when we have the chance. You are, however, making the assumption that those cards are already in your hand. There will be times when we will want to Opt as soon as possible (need a land, Mine, or Exhaustion after having been tapped out previously), others where end of opponent's turn makes the most sense (hold up or threaten counters/Gigadrowse while being able to dig for Dictate or miracle Mastery), and still others where we can fire it during upkeep worst-case to allow us to untap and scry before the first draw of our turn.
We might not be running as many instant-speed counters or removal as UW Control, but we have enough meaningful interactions with Opt to allow it to be a great fit here. Point is, Opt gives us the ability to get more information before we act in some situations, smooths our draws, and even speeds up our clock. The real question isn't if Opt belongs here, but how many, and in place of what. What I can't wait to see is some feedback from all of you after some good playtesting with it.
So I've changed my UR build away from tempo turns to a more traditional build with Chandra, Torch of Defiance and red sideboard hate. The biggest change is Disrupting Shoal. From what I've tested,its amazing. Thoughts?
He spends the first 2-3 turns just trying to draw as many cards as possible, which makes his build that much more consistent. Although he has to sacrifice his early game interaction to do it, it made his combo come together more consistently and once he got to combotown having those extra draws helped him keep going. In fact he states that he chose Spreading Seas over Remand so that mid combo he could keep drawing cards. The build is abit out of date but it should be a reasonable place to start when testing Opt.
In reviewing Corbin's article you referred to here, I found a snippet he wrote that sums up my feelings on Remand (and Ancestral Vision) perfectly:
Quote from Corbin Hostler »
Speaking of cards that aren't worth it, let's discuss a few other cards that I've seen pop up in Taking Turns lists from time to time: Remand and Ancestral Vision. I think both are pretty bad in the deck, for this simple reason: They don't help you win the game. This is more true of Remand than Ancestral Vision, but the issue is this: As a very specific kind of combo deck, you have to balance cards that “win” the game (extra draws and extra turns) versus cards that help you get there. At first glance both Remand and Ancestral Vision fulfill that second requirement since Remand is great at not losing and Ancestral Vision is great at helping you get there, but upon closer inspection both have glaring problems.
Waiting till turn five or six to go off is cutting it close. Even if you chain together a few turns and land drops, sometimes you need the top card or two of your deck to be a specific thing. If I'm sitting at seven mana and need a Time Warp NOW and I draw a Remand, I'm going to have a bad time. As good as that card would have been on turn two, it doesn't help me continue my combo. The same is true of Ancestral Vision, which is exciting when suspended on turn one but the most miserable topdeck imaginable.
The discussion on remand is productive. Agreed it's a bad topdeck later in the game, but similar to RUG scapeshift and twin used to run when they were tier 1, it's a piece of early interaction that plays into our game plan strongly. Ideally we want anything "not a turn" to draw us a card, be a land or be a "pseudo turn".
Taking his argument about remand, you could quite easily replace "remand" with any other interaction available to us. Path, snapback, commandeer, fatal push etc. All of these produce the exact same argument he makes when you've got "7 mana and I need to draw a time warp NOW". Oh no, fatal push doesn't help you win, it's bad.
you see?
This makes his argument difficult to parse, because honestly we need about 4 good pieces of interaction in the deck, and out of all the options available to us, remand is the one that draws us a card while slowing an opponent down who's curving out against us. Sure, it's bad against discard and against certain decks it has a limited window of usefulness, but the same can be said for any similar effect such as mana leak or push.
So what's the answer? Spreading Seas is "okay" but not backbreaking unless your opponent happens to be getting screwed by their manabase and against a lot of decks this rarely happens (admittedly some decks can get rekt by Seas but it's not the majority). Seas also doesn't affect the board or interrupt a combo, so you're gambling on whether it's even going to give you a useful effect. I'm about 50/50 on this card and it's definitely meta dependant.
I'm having a very hard time accepting his argument on face value, because what he is saying is essentially "don't run interaction because it doesn't help you win" and I don't think that's a useful thing to say.
Basically that part of his article was garbage. Sounds sensible when taken at surface value, and then stops making sense when you actually go deep into what he's saying.
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Good article on Opt and cantrips in Modern.
So I was wondering what you guys think about the theory of cantrips to land ratio in Turns. 23 lands seems to be the "magic" number but as a combo-control list can we add 2 Opt in place of 1 land (and 1 of anything other than a land)? I still see Serum Visions setting up lands on the first turn so would adding the Opts really enable us to remove a land for something the deck already does?
Should we Opt for the increase in spells or is that not an option for us?
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
1.) Taking the top 8 decks in Modern right now, according to mtggoldfish, along with a handful of other popular and local meta decks
2.) For each matchup making a list of the types of effects (bounce, removal, creature counters, counters, blockers, alt win-cons, land hate, graveyard/library hate) that are strong against those decks
3.) Based on that list going through and determine what cards are available that correctly achieve those effects for the matchup
4.) Narrow the list down to 15 or less unique cards that achieve those goals.
5.) Come up with sideboard guide for matchups.
I'll post my results with budget and non budget versions
Commander: Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Clerics BW, Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest Voltron RWU
This is what I'm thinking as well.
See the spoilers for Iconic Masters yet? The new Cryptic Command looks pretty sweet. Anybody think this set will have an impact on prices? I have yet to pick any up yet so would it be better to wait until the set drops?
Commander: Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Clerics BW, Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest Voltron RWU
Just random thoughts.
No affecting creatures is kind of a downer. I guess it would be brought in against pure control if anything. I've become quite the fan towards Exhaustion based effects since I picked up Turns so finding something like this was neat.
Anybody see Perilous Voyage yet? Is this playable for those of us who were already playing Boomerang and/or Snapback. It can't hit lands like Boomerang and it's not free like Snapback but scry 2 and a bounce seems nice. Thoughts?
A little off topic for Turns but I did manage to get a couple paper games in at the local shop today. The shop owner played Infect against my EldraziTron list and only managed to get one win in. Granted his list is missing a couple cards but the second match we played I didn't see a single Chalice of the Void and still managed to win the match. He did flop the first match when I landed CoTV both games on turn two but we also didn't use sideboards. Sans Gitaxian Probe why does it seem like Infect has lost some power? The owner described the deck as being more of a glass cannon now but it still has turn two nut draws. I guess what I'm asking is what exactly changed in the deck or meta to knock it down a couple notches.
I like the looks of Voyage. Bounce can be very helpful at slowing other decks down and having more scry effects to set up temporal is likely very good for us. Not sure how big of an impact it will end up having.
I think the two biggest hits are the prevelance of discard and removal (thanks Death's Shadow decks). With the printing of Fatal Push any deck running black has 3-4 B answers to anything Infect plays and with discard being common as well pump spells and creatures can be stripped before winning. UW control is also a popular deck that gets Path in the 1 Mana answer slot and has counterspells instead of discard to provide disruption
Commander: Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Clerics BW, Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest Voltron RWU
Playable: Yes
Better than Boomerang: ??
I have been disappointed in what the last several sets have given us. But Perilous Voyage has definitely caught my attention as a potential upgrade from Boomerang (which I was already running as a 2 of in some versions of my lists). When I start thinking about its drawbacks I can admit that once in a while I do bounce my own mine effects in response to Abrupt Decay. But I think I would value the sometimes scry 2 as a higher value than the drawback of losing that.
What I think will be missed much more is being on the play and bouncing their only land on our second turn. Being able to set them back and effectively (close enough anyways) Time Walk ourselves on into turn three while holding them back at turn one is huge. I know some of you may consider it win more (which in a way it is), after testing, it feels really good to pull that far ahead of them that early. I have compared it to sticking your arm out right as they fire the starting pistol and pushing backward on the guy next you. You should get off to a great start, him.... not so much.
Losing this ability to leap ahead that early might mean Perilous Voyage does not have as much of an edge on Boomerang as I think it does. I look forward to testing it. Scry 2 is very powerful. I have been sold on the idea that by Condescend and Serum Visions.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Minamo, School at Water’s Edge
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Opt
4 Serum Visions
4 Gigadrowse
3 Exhaustion
2 Cryptic Command
4 Time Warp
4 Part the Waterveil
4 Temporal Mastery
3 Howling Mine
4 Dictate of Kruphix
1 Thing in the Ice
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Snapback
1 Commandeer
1 Redirect
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dragon’s Claw
1 Sun Droplet
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Spell Snare
1 Perilous Voyage
Really need to maximize the blue sources, but with four more cantrips, cutting down to 22 lands should be fine. Cut down to a single copy of Inkmoth Nexus, but might add the second back in and take out the Gemstone Caverns instead. Oboro could easily become a checkland or filterland if Engineered Explosives makes the cut; Minamo can at least interact with Mikokoro and Clique. Heck, Inkmoth might come out entirely to ensure smoother drawing of blue sources; it's only in there to help against infinite life, and we have sideboard options if we do face such a deck.
All the Remands are gone, which reduces our tempo/interactivity, but with the addition of the playset of Opt, digging for what we need, when we need it has never looked better. Twelve extra turn effects might be excessive; it could end up better to shave one or two (or possibly the fourth Gigadrowse) to make room for a pair of Snapback in the main. Will playtest first to see how this main deck feels, though.
Two copies of Cryptic should be plenty, especially with a pair of Snapcaster Mage in the main now, and Opt to dig more effectively.
As far as sideboard options go…
Chalice of the Void is no longer included, since Opt makes dropping it at one hurt way more than it used to. Will have to compensate for matches like Burn and Storm. (0)
Thing in the Ice is better than ever with Opt in the deck. (2-3)
EE can only ever hit for 0 or 1 in this deck, but most of what we care about hitting early is in this range. D&T is definitely an exception, though, so maybe Ratchet Bomb could go here instead if that deck becomes more prevalent. Adding a few checklands might not hurt, but I don’t think this would be consistent enough without a lot more producers of a second color. However, I will test around with this. (In UB, EE would be an auto-include for me.) (0-2)
Snapback can be cast as early as we need, and the surprise factor is good. It can also be used to transform Thing in the Ice more quickly, as well as recycle the triggers of SCM and Vendilion Clique. (2)
Commandeer is a haymaker with its ability to steal planeswalkers, redirect burn and removal, and foil anything else that isn’t a creature. It’s only realistically castable by losing three of your own cards, though, so I’m not as sold on this. (0-1)
Redirect does most of what Commandeer does, but is costed much better for early interaction, especially in multiples. This is the card I want to bring in the most against Burn, and it has relevant applications against other decks, especially BGx and (lol) the mirror. (0-2)
Hurkyl’s Recall is a way to live against Affinity and Lantern Control, and it can also bounce Chalices back from EldraziTron. (2-3)
Grafdigger’s Cage requires no other mana commitment, and (besides Living End) shuts off most graveyard and Coco/Chord-style decks. (1-2)
Pithing Needle can slow Tron and Affinity decks down somewhat, as well as do great work against Coco/Chord decks and Lantern Control. (1-2)
Vendilion Clique is a great surprise threat that can close out games quickly in this build, and its ability to disrupt or filter draws is exactly what we need in a few matches. (2)
Dragon’s Claw is really good against Burn, so if you’re expecting it in above average numbers, you can’t do better than this (especially since their targeted removal is drawn to these instead of your Mine effects). Not bad against Storm either. (0-2)
Sun Droplet is more versatile, but much slower than Dragon’s Claw. I don’t plan on playing this at first, but I’m not above testing it out if this build doesn’t cut it. Honestly not a huge fan of the card, though. (0)
Elixir of Immortality...well, I don't feel we need to worry about getting milled out. The ability to gain a lot of life without much investment, as well as the reshuffle, probably work well with all of the cantrips. However, I don't see anything I'm bringing this in against besides Burn, and we have better and more versatile cards to go there anyway. (0)
Mindbreak Trap is only really good against Storm; even against decks where we might be able to free-cast this, it’s almost always as a one-for-one. (0)
As far as one and two mana counterspells go, I’d rather play a proactive game than a reactive one, plain and simple. Way too often we get overloaded on these, or they are just a turn too late. In addition, we are softer to Chalice than ever with Opt in the mix, so making this even worse isn’t something I want to be doing. If mono-U can’t get the job done, UB with its mix of Fatal Push, IoK, and Collective Brutality (and possibly Surgical Extraction) would be where to go from there. The only exception I am currently willing to make is with Spell Snare, since so many things that slow or kill us early are CMC 2, and Snapback can help keep Snare relevant, worst-case. (0-3)
Perilous Voyage looks really good, but I don't feel it's optimal for us. All we really care about bouncing is creatures, and not being able to rescue Snapcaster or Clique or recycle their triggers or cast it basically for free really makes PV seem worse in comparison. (0)
So it's good, no doubts there. It makes thing in the ice far better, this being perhaps the single biggest reason to run the card.
It helps us trim a land maybe, and can enable some temporal mastery shenanigans in opponent's turn.
However, downsides:
1) if we trim on instant speed interaction like remand or whatever else, the instant speed dig from opt gets much worse. The card is at its best if you can hold up a counterspell/interaction and then if they don't do anything nasty, you cantrip. Digging into interaction at instant speed is also decent. Without this angle, the card is significantly diminished and less worth a slot in your deck as you'll just be casting it at sorcery speed. Control wants it, we might not.
2) going up to 7 or 8 cantrips means less chalice in the sideboard, which has two problems. Firstly, you get preyed on by chalice decks now, which opens us up to eldrazi tron in a way that previously didn't exist. Secondly, without chalice (and presumably without leyline of sanctity?) your grixis/gbx death's shadow matchup really takes a hard dive. By dropping your own chalices and making yourself weak to them, you've worsened your matchup against the two best decks in the format. I'd say this was objectively the wrong direction to take.
All this leaves me unsure of how to treat the inclusion of opt in the deck. It could quite reasonably have a spot, but not at the sacrifice of serum visions. I would also think twice about building the deck such that we have to drop chalice, as it's a very potent sideboard option for us. I don't think there's an easy option honestly, but I'll be testing different builds over the coming weeks.
That seems like a very accurate assessment of where Opt stands. I have to point out in the past there have been some viable versions of this deck that ran sleight of hand in addition to serum visions. It may be a reasonable place to start when searching for a new "Optimal" build. I do remember watching these videos that Corbin Hosler made and thinking "He sure does draw a lot of cards"
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13450&writer=Corbin Hosler&articledate=8-15-2016
He spends the first 2-3 turns just trying to draw as many cards as possible, which makes his build that much more consistent. Although he has to sacrifice his early game interaction to do it, it made his combo come together more consistently and once he got to combotown having those extra draws helped him keep going. In fact he states that he chose Spreading Seas over Remand so that mid combo he could keep drawing cards. The build is abit out of date but it should be a reasonable place to start when testing Opt.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
The single biggest reason to run Opt is that it makes the deck more consistent. Including it basically doubles the chances of having a meaningful turn one play. Above any other benefit, this is the most important.
Later in the game, it helps far more than Remand ever did. The fact that Remand is almost purely reactive means there are many times where they can be too late or too slow, or simply get stranded in-hand as bulk, especially when we're trying to go off. Since the decks we are typically worst against are the fastest ones, I'd much rather be greasing my deck with Opt to hit the more meaningful cards more quickly. Remand has been the worst card in the deck for me for awhile, and I won't miss it since I want to be playing as proactively as possible. Opt's ability to help hit turn two Mine or Gigadrowse is far more important to me in those matches.
The ability to hit the miracle draw for Temporal Mastery is also very good, since this can make us a full turn faster. Last night, I put in about twelve games between rounds at FNM. In one game, I miracled Temporal Mastery three turns in a row (a first), and two other times I did it twice in a row. In two of them, I went off basically on turn three because of this. This makes our deck better against the entire field, including Shadow decks and such. Incidentally, we can Opt during our own upkeep to look a card deeper if we really needed to, say, Gigadrowse the opponent down first at their end of turn. Speaking of which...
We still have plenty to do at instant speed in this deck. Cryptic, Dictate, Gigadrowse, Temporal Mastery, Snapcaster Mage, and a number of commonly-played sideboard cards are enough to justify Opt on this basis already. It's hard to overstate how relevant it is to be able to see what your opponent is doing before you act when you can, and the power of leaving blue mana open with cards in hand is also great to psych opponents out.
Flipping Thing in the Ice more consistently can be nice, but since Titi isn't even a maindeck card, I wouldn't claim that this is the main reason to run Opt. It's still very strong though, and who knows, maybe we'll see some people trying them out in the main. I'm too wary of Fatal Push to do so, but at least it makes this option more viable.
As far as Chalice goes...since the most important aspect of Opt is the strength of our turn one options, Chalice (at least without Simian Spirit Guide) doesn't stuff us before we can set up at least once. This isn't a deck like Burn or Gx Tron where a Chalice set to one means you're basically screwed unless you draw the nuts. True, having eight spells it hits instead of four (I don't count Gigadrowse, since you can replicate through it) could hurt, but I don't feel this is enough of a reason not to max out on Opt, especially since ETron isn't fast enough most times to be really scary. Post-board, cards like Hurkyl's Recall and Engineered Explosives can help out as well, and Titi triggers even if the cantrips are countered.
Now I could be wrong about not playing our own copies of Chalice; zero is a perfectly viable value in a lot of matches. At one, they might mess with our cantrips, but if they shut off enough key cards early, this could still be worth it. I personally just don't like tripping over my own deck, but I will freely admit that Chalice is still very worth considering.
I agree that we shouldn't be cutting Serum Visions for Opt, but my instincts and preliminary testing point to Opt being amazing in U-Turns. Once it becomes legal, I'll probably shelve Gx Tron for awhile to get some better reps in with this deck. I'm really excited after what little I experienced last night. I'm also excited to see how the UB players work in Opt as well.
Cycling Remand against fast decks for net tempo loss is not what we want to be doing to win. The early interaction we want against the fast decks that beat us is the stuff we pack that actually slows them down, like Gigadrowse and Exhaustion, and the sideboard suite (ie more fast interaction that is actually relevant) that makes it even better. We also want the best lines to win as quickly as possible. Opt helps make this all happen. Remand can...but more often doesn't.
I'm saying this as someone who has been playing the deck off and on for close to three years at this point. I'm fully willing to admit I'm wrong if everyone gets some reps and, through rigorous testing, that the trade-off isn't better or worth it. In my earliest of impressions, Opt is incredible. Please playtest both ways with an open mind and post all about it so we can together tune out the best versions of this deck.
I made my case about Chalice both with and against more one-mana cantrips, and all of it still applies, so I won't repeat myself here. I do agree that of any of the numerous things I've posted about recently, this topic is the most contentious, so please playtest along and see how everything works out.
As an aside, I am definitely cutting Gemstone Caverns from the list for another blue-producing land. The number of times being a colorless mana source has literally cost me games versus the number of times I've lucked it out is probably 4:1 or more. I lost two games in a row last night because I was a single blue short of being able to Gigadrowse enough to drop Dictate and survive into going off.
Your comment that we've got plenty of instant speed things to hold up while holding up opt; the examples you gave (with the exception of cryptic) don't tend to be cards you'd hold up and not cast. For example, dictate. Sure it's instant but damn if you've got an available window you slam that thing down like it's 1999. You won't be casting opt instead for example, so having both opt and dictate in your hand and 3 mana available doesn't give you any kind of choice, you just play dictate.
That was my only complaint with your logic. Instants that work with Opt are those that offer interaction (not just "being instant"). That's why control loves the card and it might not fit as well in this deck.
Still, as I said. I'll test the card. But if it doesn't work too well with chalice, chalice will win. The card is too powerful.
Now in the example you've given, I agree completely; there's not much we'd rather do than jam a Dictate when we have the chance. You are, however, making the assumption that those cards are already in your hand. There will be times when we will want to Opt as soon as possible (need a land, Mine, or Exhaustion after having been tapped out previously), others where end of opponent's turn makes the most sense (hold up or threaten counters/Gigadrowse while being able to dig for Dictate or miracle Mastery), and still others where we can fire it during upkeep worst-case to allow us to untap and scry before the first draw of our turn.
We might not be running as many instant-speed counters or removal as UW Control, but we have enough meaningful interactions with Opt to allow it to be a great fit here. Point is, Opt gives us the ability to get more information before we act in some situations, smooths our draws, and even speeds up our clock. The real question isn't if Opt belongs here, but how many, and in place of what. What I can't wait to see is some feedback from all of you after some good playtesting with it.
11x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Ghost Quarter
Instant (10)
2x Cryptic Command
3x Gigadrowse
2x Boomerang
3x Disrupting Shoal
2x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Sorcery (17)
4x Serum Visions
3x Exhaustion
3x Temporal Mastery
4x Time Warp
3x Part the Waterveil
Enchantment (4)
4x Dictate of Kruphix
Artifacts (2)
2x Howling Mine
3x Blood Moon
2x By Force
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Commandeer
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thing in the Ice
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
Taking his argument about remand, you could quite easily replace "remand" with any other interaction available to us. Path, snapback, commandeer, fatal push etc. All of these produce the exact same argument he makes when you've got "7 mana and I need to draw a time warp NOW". Oh no, fatal push doesn't help you win, it's bad.
you see?
This makes his argument difficult to parse, because honestly we need about 4 good pieces of interaction in the deck, and out of all the options available to us, remand is the one that draws us a card while slowing an opponent down who's curving out against us. Sure, it's bad against discard and against certain decks it has a limited window of usefulness, but the same can be said for any similar effect such as mana leak or push.
So what's the answer? Spreading Seas is "okay" but not backbreaking unless your opponent happens to be getting screwed by their manabase and against a lot of decks this rarely happens (admittedly some decks can get rekt by Seas but it's not the majority). Seas also doesn't affect the board or interrupt a combo, so you're gambling on whether it's even going to give you a useful effect. I'm about 50/50 on this card and it's definitely meta dependant.
I'm having a very hard time accepting his argument on face value, because what he is saying is essentially "don't run interaction because it doesn't help you win" and I don't think that's a useful thing to say.
Basically that part of his article was garbage. Sounds sensible when taken at surface value, and then stops making sense when you actually go deep into what he's saying.