Ammit Eternal is a potential extra rack for the deck or a large damage dealer that can reset itself.
Again, what's the advantage of Ammit over Nyxathid?
Ammit is less resilient - URx can potentially cantrip Ammit into bolt range and finish it, but not Nyxathid. An opponent topdecking dismember can kill Ammit but not nyxathid. Apart from that they die to the same spells.
Ammit has less power - its maxed at 5. Nyxathid is often 6 or 7 in our deck.
The only upside Ammit has over Nyxathid is Afflict, and that's not impressive because there aren't many things that can block Nyxathid more than once.
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Ammit Eternal is a potential extra rack for the deck or a large damage dealer that can reset itself.
Again, what's the advantage of Ammit over Nyxathid?
Ammit is less resilient - URx can potentially cantrip Ammit into bolt range and finish it, but not Nyxathid. An opponent topdecking dismember can kill Ammit but not nyxathid. Apart from that they die to the same spells.
Ammit has less power - its maxed at 5. Nyxathid is often 6 or 7 in our deck.
The only upside Ammit has over Nyxathid is Afflict, and that's not impressive because there aren't many things that can block Nyxathid more than once.
Hey, here I come to submit my version of 6-7 rack (depends on the mood) that I run on Cockatrice. I wish to submit it because it is built pretty differently as I've seen in general on the internet. My matchups and analysis will be based on Cockatrice, while I'll talk too about my paper version, which sadly doesn't include yet the Liliana's and the leyline of the void.
Card choice
The outs
I shall explain first why I didn't include the most obvious cards that you can see in many of the monoB versions of rack, before comenting my won choices.
Ensnaring Bridge : even though this helps a lot against creature based decks, it doesn't prevent affinity nor infect to kill us, which are already the hardest match-ups I have. For a light-density threats deck, I prefer get more spot removals.
Wrench mind : this card is technically a 2-for-1 if the opponent does not play any artifacts. Sadly, the hardest match-ups I've got involves artifacts (affinity, tron, lantern), which makes pretty much a 0-for-1 card. I prefer get a second spot discard and a fatal push, ready to blown out the 1/1 the opponent is gonna play.
Dismember : Seeing all the spot removals monoB can afford, I feel like Dismember is one of the worst we can get. Fatal push and Victim of night are way above.
Mutavault and the others : I really do not like Mutavault at all here. Come on, this deck is called 8rack, not 8rackavault ! One wincon is fairly enough, and I'm black-mana intensive.
The ins
Necrogen mists : this one is the most variable card I've seen in all the lists. Some include them, some don't. I prefer Mists over Ensanaring Bridge, for its power to lock completely the opponent, against any grindy opponent, mostly control-midrange shells. Even against aggro decks, it is usefull to stop the second wave for coming - that is if we survived the first threats wave. One Mist and a Rack on the battlefield are pretty much game over for the opponent. Even more with so many spot removals we got in the deck.
Smallpox : the debate over this card is much more on the number of lands we are going to play. I play 4 smallpoxes for 22 lands. I do not really care if I cannot cast Liliana before turn 5-6, before that means that the opponent cannot cast its 3-drop before turn 5-6 too. As we play no fetchlands, we have a biggest probability to hit our land before our opponent's, meaning we are fine. Smallpoxing on t2 a dork closes out the game, too.
Stinkweed Imp : I got the idea of this card when I got beaten by an infect deck which drew 5 of his 8 nexus. I could take care of 3 of them, but the 2 last were too much. My Gurmag Angler wasn't able to stop this flyingness. As Raven's Crime, it is a card that can always be topdecked if in need of some defense, even against Lantern-builds. We are mostly playing 2-of this because it flies and has deathtouch, and cannot be killed. We can get it out from a Necrogen mists lock.
Tomb of Urami : even though it does ping a bit, if we get completely flooded by lands (it does happen in really long games), we can get an uncounterable flyer. Normaly played under a mist of a Liliana in activation, a 5/5 flyer does the job, in absence of racks. 1-of because it pings pretty badly
Blackmail : this card is usually played on turn 2 to discard a land from the opponent. This, followed by a smallpox, allows us to strain their manabase, making it very clunky. Just sad that Encroach ain't Modern legal :\
Victim of Night : the only cards it cannot kill are Gurmag Angler and Dredge. For dredge, on g1 it's alreay auto-loose, so I don't care about one more dead card. For Delve creatures, Liliana and smallpox are enough (7 sacrifice effects seem enough). For only BB at instant speed, I feel like it's a wonderful card.
Delirium Skeins/Cunning Lethemancer : I'm still looking for the right balance. Skeins prevents massive-CA decks, that are hard to break through. A control deck that cannot counter it will surely see a Liliana or Mist next turn. Is a perfect bait, too. On the other hand, Lethemancer allows us to make another Mist effect, but this time on our own upkeep. That nullifies the counterspell the opponent just topdecked.
Some numbers
There are 10 T1 specific discard outlets, meaning I'm almost always going to get one on the opponening hand. I feel like this version is still too T1-light, I might go up to 12-14. I don't know what to cut, still.
In total, I have 23 discarding card, 10 of which can be used to discard more than once.
I got 15 creature removals, because I play in an aggro meta. Against less aggressive metagames, you can lower this number and put more discards instead.
22 lands, which can feel pretty low, even more when there are so many smallpoxes around. Still, I don't feel like I shall play more than that, because on long games I'm gonna always be land flooded. And long games are what 8rack is looking for anyway. My early game plan can work with only 2 lands for spot removals.
About smallpox : I do not hesitate to play it T2 if it can kill a dork, at the cost of staying stuck to 1 land for a long time. My game plan is to wreck my opponent's game plan. I just need to wreck his game plan enough for him to recover slower than me. There are lots of basic lands to prevent Blood moons and sometimes Tectonic Edge. Mostly because I really need that BB on turn 2. I could go with more Urborgs, but I don't see what could be worth it. I'm thinking about a red splash, so maybe somedays.
About fetchlands : I haven't tried them, and I don't really think I need them anyway. Maybe I should include some to test them out, but I'm really not convinced. It is true that once I got 3+ lands, I often Ghost Quarter my own lands to lessen the sheer number of Swamps in my deck.
Matchups
I'll post the MU later.
Hours of Devastation
I'm also thinking to switch Languish (budget version of Damnation, of course) to Bontu's Last Reckoning. I do not think to really care about loosing a whole turn, since I'm not sure I will play anything anyway. If I already played Mists or Liliana, I really do not care about what I'm gonna cast next turn, because there I would not be in a hurry anymore. Though, I prefer Bontu's last reckoning to a 4-cmc wrath because of Smallpox and the low-lands count.
I think stinkweed is a rather interesting choice. It resists just about everything short of path to exile. Hadn't considered it but worth some thought.
The math on your smallpox land count doesn't hold up however. Neither does the idea that because we aren't using fetch lands and our opponents are (possibly) using them that we can land our 3 drops faster and more consistently. The fetchland "land thinning" has math has been debunked many times. Simple google search will fix that for you.
Oimat I would highly recommend a few more wins cons in that deck. Its really the consistent problem with 8 rack is winning the game. I normally have 0 trouble getting opponent hellbent but then what? I sit there and top deck non win con cards and it sucks. I play this deck with 8 rack effects and 4 mutavaults and it happens to me enough that I think about it. Why no thoughtseize? Is it budget? It is a great discard and would highly suggest it as a 3 of at least.
I like the blackmails and the Tomb is interesting, how often are you making a demon and winning with it?
I will disagree that 8 rack is looking for a long game, we are a control deck but I am not looking to play a long game because I cant control top decks. I am looking to hellbent my opponent and win around turn 8 with my rack effects. I play many different decks and this deck is normally finished a round the fastest out of all my other decks.
Should I assume too high casting cost for return on investment? Would it have been borderline playable at 3 cmc?
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Wrench Mind seems bad right now with affinity, Tron, Mishra's bauble, and chalice of the void all seeing a lot of play.
I would be more than happy to hit chalice of the void with wrench mind. Bauble is very unlikely to stay in their hand. Affinity and Tron aren't great but you can't have the perfect card for every matchup.
Any tips on how to beat Junk (with BG-Rack)? Take out discard, bring in midrangey stuff? Or just stick with the main plan? Is smallpox any good or not?
Maybe board extraction to get lingering souls, really that is the most problematic card they have beside AD, which you just have to get and hope they don't top deck it in a tight race.
Ammit Eternal is a potential extra rack for the deck or a large damage dealer that can reset itself.
Again, what's the advantage of Ammit over Nyxathid?
Ammit is less resilient - URx can potentially cantrip Ammit into bolt range and finish it, but not Nyxathid. An opponent topdecking dismember can kill Ammit but not nyxathid. Apart from that they die to the same spells.
Ammit has less power - its maxed at 5. Nyxathid is often 6 or 7 in our deck.
The only upside Ammit has over Nyxathid is Afflict, and that's not impressive because there aren't many things that can block Nyxathid more than once.
Well if your opponent is going to resort to that to get rid of your threat, just makes your discard spells more stronger as they have wasted a turn to deal with it. Also Ammit helps out Liliana against bolts as it it now a second target.
Ammit Eternal is a potential extra rack for the deck or a large damage dealer that can reset itself.
Again, what's the advantage of Ammit over Nyxathid?
Ammit is less resilient - URx can potentially cantrip Ammit into bolt range and finish it, but not Nyxathid. An opponent topdecking dismember can kill Ammit but not nyxathid. Apart from that they die to the same spells.
Ammit has less power - its maxed at 5. Nyxathid is often 6 or 7 in our deck.
The only upside Ammit has over Nyxathid is Afflict, and that's not impressive because there aren't many things that can block Nyxathid more than once.
Well if your opponent is going to resort to that to get rid of your threat, just makes your discard spells more stronger as they have wasted a turn to deal with it. Also Ammit helps out Liliana against bolts as it it now a second target.
None of these reasons make Ammit any better an option than Nyxathid. Nyxathid is going to close the game in 2-3 turns and is more resilient. Ammit will take 3-4 turns and is less resilient. So if you want a faster creature based clock, play Nyxathid, not Ammit.
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Out of everything from Amontkhet or in general, this is the most interesting and most reasonable suggestion I've seen in quite some time. With tags: Akuta, Born of Ash
It's not a bad idea. A little while ago I considered making a discard EDH deck around it but I decided not to. If anyone tests it let me know the results
So with the rising popularity of BW smallpox, I came to a realization, is there a way we can combine the best of both worlds with 8rack? possibly sacrifice some discard/removal for more recurring creatures and lingering souls? Basically attacking from multiple angles?
Somethings I feel we could add into 8 rack would be cards like
Flagstones
Bloodghast
Collected brutality
Lingering souls
With the heavy meta of tron and affinity and other misc decks with artifacts, maybe we can take wrench mind as a 2 of? for more of these cards?
So with the rising popularity of BW smallpox, I came to a realization, is there a way we can combine the best of both worlds with 8rack? possibly sacrifice some discard/removal for more recurring creatures and lingering souls? Basically attacking from multiple angles?
Somethings I feel we could add into 8 rack would be cards like
Flagstones
Bloodghast
Collected brutality
Lingering souls
With the heavy meta of tron and affinity and other misc decks with artifacts, maybe we can take wrench mind as a 2 of? for more of these cards?
You can try with souls but the mana curve becomes pretty top heavy. I had great success with Pox + Myth Realized to achieve the effect you are describing. Not to say that souls wont work - you should try both and see what you think.
the interaction cards are what makes the deck good
inquisition of kozilek
thoughtseize
fatal push
smallpox
liliana
and to a lesser extent funeral charm
you can add any decent win condition and the deck will function and be good, smallpox makes demands in that regard (no goyf, confidant, death shadow, etc)
the cards that make this deck 8rack and not grixis death shadow or jund or bw pox are:
ravens crime
wrench mind
both racks
and that last part its the most interchangable, finding a group of win conditions that work well with smallpox its what makes 8rack and bw pox worht trying over the other decks with the same interaction package
the new bw pox list is making results because it has the interactive cards already mentioned and a group of win conditions that work well with smallpox, but its not clear to me if its better or not than 8 rack. lingering souls its the selling point, but bloodghast leaves a lot to desire as a creature at the battle field
i dont think you can mix racks and creatures as the racks need support in the form of mass discard (ravens crime/wrench mind), but as far as creatures go you can play any combination that works well with smallpox and the deck will funcion and be good
myth realized, young pyromancer,lingering souls, sprout swarm, bitterblossom are some examples
i know this is the 8 rack forum but in my opinion experimenting with the win conditions might be the best way to improve the deck other than having the doom blade vs smother kind of discussions. but maybe i am to optimistic because the painless + mutavault mana base its awesome and changing it to a fetch+shock manabase in order to "improve" the win conditions might not be a good move
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No particular reason to play this over Nyxathid.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Again, what's the advantage of Ammit over Nyxathid?
Ammit is less resilient - URx can potentially cantrip Ammit into bolt range and finish it, but not Nyxathid. An opponent topdecking dismember can kill Ammit but not nyxathid. Apart from that they die to the same spells.
Ammit has less power - its maxed at 5. Nyxathid is often 6 or 7 in our deck.
The only upside Ammit has over Nyxathid is Afflict, and that's not impressive because there aren't many things that can block Nyxathid more than once.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 thoughtseize
1 raven's crime
4 fatal push
4 abrupt decay
4 smallpox
Permanents 16
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
4 Liliana of the veil
4 ensnaring bridge
4 blooming marsh
4 twilight mire
4 wooded cemetery
11 swamp
3 leyline of the void
2 graffdigger's cage
2 torpor orb
2 golgari charm
2 maelstrom pulse
2 Fulminator mage
2 collective brutality
What do you guys think?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
4 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction
Discards
3 Necrogen Mists
3 Raven's Crime
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Despise
1 Duress
2 Blackmail
3 Victim of Night
3 Fatal Push
2 Stinkweed Imp
Discard+removal
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
17 Swamp
4 Ratchet Bomb
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Languish
1 Delirium Skeins
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Cunning Lethemancer
Hey, here I come to submit my version of 6-7 rack (depends on the mood) that I run on Cockatrice. I wish to submit it because it is built pretty differently as I've seen in general on the internet. My matchups and analysis will be based on Cockatrice, while I'll talk too about my paper version, which sadly doesn't include yet the Liliana's and the leyline of the void.
Card choice
The outs
I shall explain first why I didn't include the most obvious cards that you can see in many of the monoB versions of rack, before comenting my won choices.
The ins
Some numbers
There are 10 T1 specific discard outlets, meaning I'm almost always going to get one on the opponening hand. I feel like this version is still too T1-light, I might go up to 12-14. I don't know what to cut, still.
In total, I have 23 discarding card, 10 of which can be used to discard more than once.
I got 15 creature removals, because I play in an aggro meta. Against less aggressive metagames, you can lower this number and put more discards instead.
22 lands, which can feel pretty low, even more when there are so many smallpoxes around. Still, I don't feel like I shall play more than that, because on long games I'm gonna always be land flooded. And long games are what 8rack is looking for anyway. My early game plan can work with only 2 lands for spot removals.
About smallpox : I do not hesitate to play it T2 if it can kill a dork, at the cost of staying stuck to 1 land for a long time. My game plan is to wreck my opponent's game plan. I just need to wreck his game plan enough for him to recover slower than me. There are lots of basic lands to prevent Blood moons and sometimes Tectonic Edge. Mostly because I really need that BB on turn 2. I could go with more Urborgs, but I don't see what could be worth it. I'm thinking about a red splash, so maybe somedays.
About fetchlands : I haven't tried them, and I don't really think I need them anyway. Maybe I should include some to test them out, but I'm really not convinced. It is true that once I got 3+ lands, I often Ghost Quarter my own lands to lessen the sheer number of Swamps in my deck.
Matchups
I'll post the MU later.
Hours of Devastation
I'm also thinking to switch Languish (budget version of Damnation, of course) to Bontu's Last Reckoning. I do not think to really care about loosing a whole turn, since I'm not sure I will play anything anyway. If I already played Mists or Liliana, I really do not care about what I'm gonna cast next turn, because there I would not be in a hurry anymore. Though, I prefer Bontu's last reckoning to a 4-cmc wrath because of Smallpox and the low-lands count.
The math on your smallpox land count doesn't hold up however. Neither does the idea that because we aren't using fetch lands and our opponents are (possibly) using them that we can land our 3 drops faster and more consistently. The fetchland "land thinning" has math has been debunked many times. Simple google search will fix that for you.
Regarding land counts I'll refer you to this excellent article from channel fireball: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-lands-do-you-need-to-consistently-hit-your-land-drops/
If it's too much for you to read scroll to the end for the conclusion.
I like the blackmails and the Tomb is interesting, how often are you making a demon and winning with it?
I will disagree that 8 rack is looking for a long game, we are a control deck but I am not looking to play a long game because I cant control top decks. I am looking to hellbent my opponent and win around turn 8 with my rack effects. I play many different decks and this deck is normally finished a round the fastest out of all my other decks.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Should I assume too high casting cost for return on investment? Would it have been borderline playable at 3 cmc?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I would be more than happy to hit chalice of the void with wrench mind. Bauble is very unlikely to stay in their hand. Affinity and Tron aren't great but you can't have the perfect card for every matchup.
Maybe board extraction to get lingering souls, really that is the most problematic card they have beside AD, which you just have to get and hope they don't top deck it in a tight race.
Well if your opponent is going to resort to that to get rid of your threat, just makes your discard spells more stronger as they have wasted a turn to deal with it. Also Ammit helps out Liliana against bolts as it it now a second target.
None of these reasons make Ammit any better an option than Nyxathid. Nyxathid is going to close the game in 2-3 turns and is more resilient. Ammit will take 3-4 turns and is less resilient. So if you want a faster creature based clock, play Nyxathid, not Ammit.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Out of everything from Amontkhet or in general, this is the most interesting and most reasonable suggestion I've seen in quite some time. With tags: Akuta, Born of Ash
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Somethings I feel we could add into 8 rack would be cards like
Flagstones
Bloodghast
Collected brutality
Lingering souls
With the heavy meta of tron and affinity and other misc decks with artifacts, maybe we can take wrench mind as a 2 of? for more of these cards?
You can try with souls but the mana curve becomes pretty top heavy. I had great success with Pox + Myth Realized to achieve the effect you are describing. Not to say that souls wont work - you should try both and see what you think.
the interaction cards are what makes the deck good
inquisition of kozilek
thoughtseize
fatal push
smallpox
liliana
and to a lesser extent funeral charm
you can add any decent win condition and the deck will function and be good, smallpox makes demands in that regard (no goyf, confidant, death shadow, etc)
the cards that make this deck 8rack and not grixis death shadow or jund or bw pox are:
ravens crime
wrench mind
both racks
and that last part its the most interchangable, finding a group of win conditions that work well with smallpox its what makes 8rack and bw pox worht trying over the other decks with the same interaction package
the new bw pox list is making results because it has the interactive cards already mentioned and a group of win conditions that work well with smallpox, but its not clear to me if its better or not than 8 rack. lingering souls its the selling point, but bloodghast leaves a lot to desire as a creature at the battle field
i dont think you can mix racks and creatures as the racks need support in the form of mass discard (ravens crime/wrench mind), but as far as creatures go you can play any combination that works well with smallpox and the deck will funcion and be good
myth realized, young pyromancer,lingering souls, sprout swarm, bitterblossom are some examples
i know this is the 8 rack forum but in my opinion experimenting with the win conditions might be the best way to improve the deck other than having the doom blade vs smother kind of discussions. but maybe i am to optimistic because the painless + mutavault mana base its awesome and changing it to a fetch+shock manabase in order to "improve" the win conditions might not be a good move