Driven // Despair is a card seriously worth brewing with for Golgari 8Rack. Just add some dredge which is already decent fuel for Raven's Crime.
It might be better for Loampox but I bet 8rack might be able to squeeze 1 or 2 in. Maybe we could make some sort of Hybrid?
We run so few creatures, even in GoyFrack that Driven rarely will trigger, and if 8rack is connecting with critters than both halves of this card have to fall into the win more category of effects. Close, but no cigar for me.
Of the current spoilers, only Bontu's is a clear winner for 8Rack so far, but it's a really nice card. If that's the only one we get I'll still call it a big win.
You are correct, I may have expressed my position on the card poorly. Edit: I see my mistake. When I said "just add some dredge" I was referring to the deck and the cards the deck uses (ex. Bloodghast) not just the mechanic itself.
Driven // Despair is a decent discard card in a dredge deck and imho modern worthy. We wouldn't be able to simply drag and drop it into anything that resembles classic 8Rack. However it may worth exploring adding some 8Rack elements (such as The Rack and/or Shrieking Affliction) to a dredge or loampox deck that uses creatures like Bloodghast, Prized Amalgam etc. I'm not saying it's a great idea to do this, it's just something worth looking into before ruling out.
I hope you wouldn't mind, 8 Rack was my first ever MTG deck, and it's been setting in my desk for too long in favor of other decks. I was hoping you could give me some tuning advice for the following problems:
I found that taking a mulligan is rarely feasible, as most of the deck trades 1 for 1, and that puts us behind the curve.
The biggest issue, consistency: 8 Rack needs to draw the perfect quantity of rack(s), board control and hand disruption. It often just doesn't line up, and our top decks are often abysmal.
Do you still stand by 1 or 2 Bontu's mainboard, or is it entirely relegated to SB tech?
Do you still agree that bridgeless is the way to go?
I've tried slotting Necrogen Mists both for its persistent discard, allowing for more aggressive mulligans and consistency, as well as to combat Leyline of Sanctity, but deemed it too slow. Any thoughts on combating these issues?
1. Ya, Mulligan's suck. Fortunately the deck is designed to limit the frequency of Mulligan's. You have to try to make up for the loss of CA with 2 for 1's like Wrench Mind and LOTV. Knowing what to pick with Thoughtseize/IoK helps here too.
2. This is where your side board will come into play big time. Some matchups require more aggression, others require more removal.
3. It's hard to "stand by" something that doesn't exist yet and hasn't been tested but on paper I think it's a good idea.
4. Imo yes but that's not to say Bridge is terrible. It has some great MU's so it's a subjective decision. I don't think they are viable in the main board though.
Question, for the dredge matches is progenitus better or grafdigger? which card can be used against other deck? my sb is kind of tight. Or should i just sideboard leyline of the void or RIP?
Question, for the dredge matches is progenitus better or grafdigger? which card can be used against other deck? my sb is kind of tight. Or should i just sideboard leyline of the void or RIP?
That's a really subjective question. Between those two I want to say relic because it comes out earlier and cantrips. Leyline/Rip are better options imo. Surgical Extraction is good here too.
I hope you wouldn't mind, 8 Rack was my first ever MTG deck, and it's been setting in my desk for too long in favor of other decks. I was hoping you could give me some tuning advice for the following problems:
I found that taking a mulligan is rarely feasible, as most of the deck trades 1 for 1, and that puts us behind the curve.
The biggest issue, consistency: 8 Rack needs to draw the perfect quantity of rack(s), board control and hand disruption. It often just doesn't line up, and our top decks are often abysmal.
Do you still stand by 1 or 2 Bontu's mainboard, or is it entirely relegated to SB tech?
Do you still agree that bridgeless is the way to go?
I've tried slotting Necrogen Mists both for its persistent discard, allowing for more aggressive mulligans and consistency, as well as to combat Leyline of Sanctity, but deemed it too slow. Any thoughts on combating these issues?
I agree with Reapers assessment above. This is a pretty clean list, I a bit surprised you find variance to be one of your top issues, as the deck has a ton of redundancy. One thing I see is 4 smallpox sitting next to 4 wrench mind. I think you can shave a copy of each to open up some more room. If it were me I would keep the urborg count at 4 as well. Try 2x copies of Ensnaring Bridge in those spots, or 2 more removal.
Keep in mind you are going all in on max linearity. You basically have no plan B if they get around your hand destruction. This is certainly a viable way to go, but you will lose games because of it make no mistake. I have always preferred plan B configurations using cards such as Pack Rat and Asylum Visitor.
EDIT: Deleted response. Private message me if you want my current Goyfrack /8Rock lists.
Well, I have no idea what you deleted. If you have a more up to date list than on your youtube, I'd appreciate it. But I would also appreciate comments on the card choices.
I do have updated lists, I just don't like posting them here due to the awful moderation and toxicity of MTGS. I'll PM them to you.
One thing I found surprising while testing goyfrack was how underwhelming Abrupt Decay is. On the surface you would think it would be an auto include 3-4 copies, but its actually a lot worse than Fatal Push in practice because of one thing: It can't hit manlands. Manlands are one of our weaknesses because we have a hard time forcing them to be discarded, and they are also immune to Liliana's edict. It hits chalice set to 0 though, so if you are 100% sure you will face chalice keep them maindeck as you SECONDARY removal. Fatal Push is the primary removal and should get 4 copies.
I'm still laughing at the naysayers on this board that tried to convince me that Fatal Push was a bad card. I said it was the black lightning bolt and get trolled. Currently it's the MOST played card in the entire format, with Path to Exile number 2 and Lightning Bolt way down at number 3. Huh. Imagine that.
Thank you so much for your reply! I've been quite partial to Smallpox myself, as it suits every need. It discards, it alleviates their pressure on us by killing a creature, it sets them back a land drop which forces them to play another one rather than accumulate them in hand to insulate against discard and given variance has been an issue for me, a card that just does everything I want is perfect. I'll try cutting a Wrench and a Pox for a bit, but they seem so good at fighting card advantage and providing consistency.
Would it be a bad move to just slot pack rats or nyxathids into SB for when hand destruction alone won't get us there? Seems like going -4Pox +4creatures would be an easy SB choice to make. Thanks again, it's awesome to see the deck's architect still interested in the archetype!
I was aboard the Fatal Push hype train since I heard about it, and it has been nothing but a godsend to my mono black and UB decks. I'd actually take it a step further, and argue Fatal Push is superior to Path to Exile right now, and I believe this sentiment was echoed by LSV.
This card is going to be a problem for us. It makes their critters discard proof. It goes in every deck that is running critters and black, which is a lot of them. Snapcaster loves this card. In a lot of ways this card is the answer to Fatal Push for creature decks.
It's not all bad though.
-The decks that will use this are also vulnerable to Graveyard hate.
-Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void will be needed. We may even want to dust off our Grafdiggers.
-GoyfRack can use it for itself
-MythRack can drop pox and use Path to Exile
I honestly was hoping you'd tell me my list was bad, because the variation in this deck is absolutely extreme.
I'll give your verbatim list a few rounds and see if there's anything that jumps out at me. I suspect that you are feeling the pains of being so linear though.
its less eficient than the other cards in the deck, but its like a rack that helps activate itself
maybe it fits better in a more midrange version with less racks (since more than 8 might be to many), less discard and more ways to control the board and win behind lili + torment and the remaining racks
its less eficient than the other cards in the deck, but its like a rack that helps activate itself
maybe it fits better in a more midrange version with less racks (since more than 8 might be to many), less discard and more ways to control the board and win behind lili + torment and the remaining racks
just an idea
I don't hate it but man why couldn't it cost 1 less.
In terms of Torment of hailfire I feel like cards that cost that much mana and give your opponent the options are usually fairly bad cards in most format's..even in Legacy with dark ritual's I feel like giving your opponent the out's is bad
No man, paying four means 6 life and two nonland permanents or cards. This card has many weaknesses, including the fact that with it in hand you may not even get to the late game because a two mana Wrench Mind would have been better, and 23-24 land with Smallpox means you're going to not even hit four mana a lot, and in this card's case you need to hit 5
It might be better for Loampox but I bet 8rack might be able to squeeze 1 or 2 in. Maybe we could make some sort of Hybrid?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Of the current spoilers, only Bontu's is a clear winner for 8Rack so far, but it's a really nice card. If that's the only one we get I'll still call it a big win.
Driven // Despair is a decent discard card in a dredge deck and imho modern worthy. We wouldn't be able to simply drag and drop it into anything that resembles classic 8Rack. However it may worth exploring adding some 8Rack elements (such as The Rack and/or Shrieking Affliction) to a dredge or loampox deck that uses creatures like Bloodghast, Prized Amalgam etc. I'm not saying it's a great idea to do this, it's just something worth looking into before ruling out.
I agree on Bontu's board wipe. That things dope
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
Control/Removal Package
1 Go for the Throat
4 Fatal Push
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
Quantitative Discard
4 Raven's Crime
4 Wrench Mind
4 Mutavault
16 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I've tried slotting Necrogen Mists both for its persistent discard, allowing for more aggressive mulligans and consistency, as well as to combat Leyline of Sanctity, but deemed it too slow. Any thoughts on combating these issues?
1. Ya, Mulligan's suck. Fortunately the deck is designed to limit the frequency of Mulligan's. You have to try to make up for the loss of CA with 2 for 1's like Wrench Mind and LOTV. Knowing what to pick with Thoughtseize/IoK helps here too.
2. This is where your side board will come into play big time. Some matchups require more aggression, others require more removal.
3. It's hard to "stand by" something that doesn't exist yet and hasn't been tested but on paper I think it's a good idea.
4. Imo yes but that's not to say Bridge is terrible. It has some great MU's so it's a subjective decision. I don't think they are viable in the main board though.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I use Rip.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I agree with Reapers assessment above. This is a pretty clean list, I a bit surprised you find variance to be one of your top issues, as the deck has a ton of redundancy. One thing I see is 4 smallpox sitting next to 4 wrench mind. I think you can shave a copy of each to open up some more room. If it were me I would keep the urborg count at 4 as well. Try 2x copies of Ensnaring Bridge in those spots, or 2 more removal.
Keep in mind you are going all in on max linearity. You basically have no plan B if they get around your hand destruction. This is certainly a viable way to go, but you will lose games because of it make no mistake. I have always preferred plan B configurations using cards such as Pack Rat and Asylum Visitor.
One thing I found surprising while testing goyfrack was how underwhelming Abrupt Decay is. On the surface you would think it would be an auto include 3-4 copies, but its actually a lot worse than Fatal Push in practice because of one thing: It can't hit manlands. Manlands are one of our weaknesses because we have a hard time forcing them to be discarded, and they are also immune to Liliana's edict. It hits chalice set to 0 though, so if you are 100% sure you will face chalice keep them maindeck as you SECONDARY removal. Fatal Push is the primary removal and should get 4 copies.
I'm still laughing at the naysayers on this board that tried to convince me that Fatal Push was a bad card. I said it was the black lightning bolt and get trolled. Currently it's the MOST played card in the entire format, with Path to Exile number 2 and Lightning Bolt way down at number 3. Huh. Imagine that.
Would it be a bad move to just slot pack rats or nyxathids into SB for when hand destruction alone won't get us there? Seems like going -4Pox +4creatures would be an easy SB choice to make. Thanks again, it's awesome to see the deck's architect still interested in the archetype!
Claim // Fame
This card is going to be a problem for us. It makes their critters discard proof. It goes in every deck that is running critters and black, which is a lot of them. Snapcaster loves this card. In a lot of ways this card is the answer to Fatal Push for creature decks.
It's not all bad though.
-The decks that will use this are also vulnerable to Graveyard hate.
-Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void will be needed. We may even want to dust off our Grafdiggers.
-GoyfRack can use it for itself
-MythRack can drop pox and use Path to Exile
its less eficient than the other cards in the deck, but its like a rack that helps activate itself
maybe it fits better in a more midrange version with less racks (since more than 8 might be to many), less discard and more ways to control the board and win behind lili + torment and the remaining racks
just an idea
Legacy: Pox, R/B Goblins
Commander: Mono Black, Mono Blue
Pauper: Goblins
Legacy: Pox, R/B Goblins
Commander: Mono Black, Mono Blue
Pauper: Goblins
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)