Card choices Arid Mesa: Happens to be the fetch that I own. Decent camouflage (Arid Mesa -> go looks like burn or zoo) but a scattering of fetches would be better vs. pithing needle.
Sacred Foundry: Supports Wear // Tear out of the side at low cost. Without Serum Visions we don't need turn one blue mana as badly and once you start going off it doesn't really matter.
Noxious Revival: Worse than an equipment when you're digging for your first retract but otherwise usually better. Gives an out to Thoughtseize/IoK on grapeshot and lets you grapeshot Thalia.
Sideboard
Removing up to three kite shields, up to one SSG, and up to one Hurkyl's Recall leaves you with a shell that looks a lot like the standard Cheeri0s build with Serum Visions and Swan Song taken out. I think the sideboarding plan is pretty similar.
Leyline of Sanctity: Comes in against anybody packing 6+ targeted discard spells.
Silence: Decks like Burn and Grixis Control can kill all of our draw engines as they come into play. Silence at least gives us a fighting chance though it still doesn't feel great. While Favor of the Mighty is neat it is a little slow and is a huge nonbo against opposing Eidolons.
Wear // Tear: Handles pesky artifact and enchantment hosers, sometimes both at the same time.
Echoing Truth: Handles every kind of hoser but just for one turn. If I'm not sure what to bring in I'll usually have at least one or two of these.
I like this build a lot. I think some number of SSG are correct since we pretty much live or die on our speed. I don't think three card draw spells and two counters add that much consistency or resiliency. I'd rather go off as early and consistently as possible in game one and then bring in solutions for particular problems post board.
This is my first post on mtgsalvation. I am a Legacy (UB Reanimator) and Standard (Whatever is winning) player at heart. Today, however, was the first time that I played a modern event and I choose to start my modern journey with a good breakfast.
I went to FNM without knowing the field (and a lot of cards) and walked out with a 4-1 record and a free pass to Amonkhet PreRelease on april. Sounds great - and it was!. The deck is very fun to pilot (but being across the table from it probably sucks).
MAINDECK
1. You may notice that I run only 3 retracts and 2 recalls. That's because my fourth retract is still on mail.
2. I love Noxious Revival flexibility. Definitely 2/1 split with grapeshot.
3. The fetchs are not optimal, but I started playing on KTK and they're all I have.
SIDEBOARD
1. I don't have leylines and they seemed really awkward to draw middle combo. I prefer to mulligan chasing my engines.
2. I'm not sold on Silence.
3. Mentor and Aether Grid are my alterantive wincons.
4. Paths for Thalia and other annoying creatures, fragmentize for leylines, eidolons, chalices, etc.
5. Echoing truths is very good against pretty much anything, specially when you don't know what to expect. Favor of the might won me some games against control. Paradoxical was for - of course - BGx matchups.
Now that you all know my list, here's my report:
MATCH 1 - NAYA EVOLUTION (1-0)
First match was with some brew that I had never ever heard. He was a friend of mine, so he knew what I was on. He wins the roll and goes T1 fetch. I go T1 fetch, he goes T2 birds and I play another fetch, crack, paladin. T3 he goes evolution sacrificing birds to magus of the moon. T3 I play mox, paradise mantle, another paladin and combo off.
Game 2 I mulligan to 5 and he lands an early white eidolon. I never find my second land and he wins easily with eidolon and voice of ressurgence beatdown.
Game 3 I keep a hand with no engines, but a lot of sideboard cards. He taps for white eidolon on T3, I fragmentize it on my turn and combo off.
MATCH 2 - TRON (2-0)
He wins the roll and open with land, sphere. I play fetch, go. He then plays collective brutality. Oops, too soon. I show my hand with only one target and two engines and he sighs. I play one on my T2, he sylvan scries, and on my T3 I went off with two engines. He scooped
on the second retract, even before I drew grapeshot.
Game 2 I mulligan to find a really good hand. He muligans to 5. He finds his removal (brutality) one turn late - my paladin was already 3/8. I won in the next turn. Really easy matchup.
MATCH 3 - Taking Turns (2-1)
There's not much to say about these games. Game 1 I mulligan to 5 and never find a second land. Game 2 I played a Favor of the Mighty and he plays a Vendillion on my endstep. OOOOOPS. However, I was able to combo off in the next turn anyway. Game 3 I mulligan to 4 and got all my engines countered. Whatever, that's the price we pay.
MATCH 4 - Grixis Control (3-1)
Won the dice roll. Play flooded strand and opponent says "Oh, control mirror". Next turn I combo off (I <3 Mox Opal).
Game 2 I mulligan to 4. I find a Paladin, he counters it, I counter his counter. He let it resolve and then fatal pushes my paladin. The swan token - a Spearow that I had in my deckbox - beats me up until I die.
Game 3 was his time to mulligan to oblivion. He goes to 5, finds two removal. E play paladin and he pushes. T3 I play Favor, he looks at his hand and says nothing. T4 paladin + sram and comboed off, while my opponent had lightning bolt sitting on his hand.
MATCH 5 - GRISHOAL BRAND (4-1)
No BGx must be some kind of miracle. In this match, I was extremely lucky. Game 1 he didn't even know what the deck was trying to do ("Why are you counting storm?") and I comboed off easily on T4 after one removal. Game 2 I keep a hand with 3 engines, one land, one cheerio and one path. My opponent got super unlucky and can't find his combo pieces after drawing a ton of cards. I find my second land on turn 5 and start the combo. He starts to look at me super bored. Trying to be a nice guy, I stopped the combo when I had lethal. He answers with shoal, gaining a ton of life and asks me if I will pass the turn. I get a little salty, because I only played grapeshot so early to end his misery - and he knew that I could keep it going. However, I say "nop", noxious my grapeshot, draw another ton of cards and deal another 25+ damage on him.
--
Overall, it was a very fun deck to play. I mulliganed pretty hard to find my engines, and most of the time it did pay off. The deck is not so soft for removal as I first thought - but I did not play against Jund, so IDK really. I think that I got very lucky on my matchups as well. People will probably be ready for cheeri0s next friday, so I'll probably just play standard lol.
THINGS THAT I WILL CHANGE
1. Dropping the mentor on the side. I almost never wanted him in my 60 and never drew him when I wanted it. Probably will go with another Ghirapur Aether Grid (helps with jund, I guess?). Suggestions?
2. My retract is coming, but I'll definitely keep one Hurkyl's Recall on mainboard.
3. -2 Fragmentize + 2 wear/tear on sideboard just to diversify answers. Also, instant speed is very cool.
THINGS THAT I LEARNED TODAY
1. Always go for the full grapeshot, even if your opponent looks bored and tapped out. You never know when they have weird stuff to do by exiling things from their hands.
2. Most of the time, the right answer is to try to combo off when you have one engine on the table. If you fail, you'll probably have another chance next turn.
3. It's super weird to handle hands after drawing 20 or 30 cards on one turn. Suggestions?
4. This deck is even more cooler than it looks like.
Well, that was my FNM. Hope you enjoy my report. Most of my decisions were based on the discussions of this thread, so I'm very pleased to give it back to the community. Sorry for any english related problems, it's not my first language.
Checking out for the night, but before I do, GP Brisbane update: Taufik Indrakesuma is on Cheeri0s and is 6-0 going into round 7. I confirmed his deck choice on Twitter. Super excited to see his list and watch his performance for the tournament.
Checking out for the night, but before I do, GP Brisbane update: Taufik Indrakesuma is on Cheeri0s and is 6-0 going into round 7. I confirmed his deck choice on Twitter. Super excited to see his list and watch his performance for the tournament.
Currently 8-0 with moments left in R9, but 4/5 of the other x-0 decks are highly favored, so he only needs any luck if he's paired with Esper.
There seem to be feature matches but I can't find the stream.
Edit: Also he has the highest win % in the room at >76%.
Edit2: My bad, apparently a couple of x-1s have 77%, edging him slightly in games but down in points.
Sideboard
3 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Silence
3 Path to Eile
2 Echoing Truth
2 Wear//Tear
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
Here are the bare-bones match break-downs...starving so holler if you have questions.
Match #1 Kiki-Chord/ Eldritch Evo (0-1)
Mull to 5 2 times, don't see 2nd land until too late. Lose in a sweep.
Match #2 Coco Merfolk + PtE (1-1)
G1 I kill T3/no interaction.
G2 He stony silences T2, I Wear//Tear on his EoT, I kill him T3.
Match #3 Merfolk (2-1)
G1 I kill T3.
G2 I Kill T3.
Match #4 G/R Aggro (3-1)
G1 Kingpin is MvP, I win with 1 life after blocking + Lifelink on T4.
G2 Same, but T3.
Match #5 U/W Control (4-1)
G1 I T2 Sram and go off, he has a case of WTFs.
G2 IoK his PtE T1, T2 Kingpin, T3 Paladin to win.
Match #6 G/R Aggro 4-2
G1 Mull to 5, never see land 2, he thinks I am Abzan.
G2 T1 IoK Bolt, T2 Kingpin (he goes cross-eyed), T3 Paladin into kill.
G3 Mull to 5, never see land 2 and lose.
Match #7 Burn 5-2
G1 T1 Toughseize Eidolon, T2 Sram fizzle, T3 draw retract/play Kingpin, T4 IoK bolt/play paladin/win
G2 End of his T2 Wear//Tear Eidolon, T2 play Kingpin, T3 Sram to win
Match #8 Burn 5-3
G1 T2 I play Kingpin, T3 he taps out, I play Sram and win.
G2 No Protection/Forge-Tender, he burns and Path's me to death.
G3 Fizzle T2 with Paly/Voltron up, He T2 Eidolon, T3 get down Kingpin and voltron, He has burnt me to 7 life, he is at 8. He passes his T3, T4 I swing with 4/12 vigilance kingpin, he has 2 cards, 1 of which is a deflecting palm he sided in for grapeshot errantly...sure works here. I go to 3. His T4 he top-decks Lavaspike....dayam.
Match #9 G/W Tron (6-3)
G1 She paths a paladin after I fizzle T2, but I had drawn another + a kingpin. T3 with Mox both are out. T4 retract into kill.
G2 T1 Thoughtseize on path, she has no other interaction, I kill T3.
Why the thoughseize over a 4th IOK? Fringe use against murderous cut?
From your brief writeup is looks like kingpin put in serious work.
Your list looks like it doesn't need seachrome coast. What was your experience with it? Did you ever have to mulligan a coast+IOK hand and that was your only land? It seems to me that T1 black is more important than T3 blue if coast is drawn. Or is it not a third black source to prevent the occasional (though rare) 3 BW mana with no Opal and a retract stuck in hand?
Here are the bare-bones match break-downs...starving so holler if you have questions.
Match #1 Kiki-Chord/ Eldritch Evo (0-1)
Mull to 5 2 times, don't see 2nd land until too late. Lose in a sweep.
Match #2 Coco Merfolk + PtE (1-1)
G1 I kill T3/no interaction.
G2 He stony silences T2, I Wear//Tear on his EoT, I kill him T3.
Match #3 Merfolk (2-1)
G1 I kill T3.
G2 I Kill T3.
Match #4 G/R Aggro (3-1)
G1 Kingpin is MvP, I win with 1 life after blocking + Lifelink on T4.
G2 Same, but T3.
Match #5 U/W Control (4-1)
G1 I T2 Sram and go off, he has a case of WTFs.
G2 IoK his PtE T1, T2 Kingpin, T3 Paladin to win.
Match #6 G/R Aggro 4-2
G1 Mull to 5, never see land 2, he thinks I am Abzan.
G2 T1 IoK Bolt, T2 Kingpin (he goes cross-eyed), T3 Paladin into kill.
G3 Mull to 5, never see land 2 and lose.
Match #7 Burn 5-2
G1 T1 Toughseize Eidolon, T2 Sram fizzle, T3 draw retract/play Kingpin, T4 IoK bolt/play paladin/win
G2 End of his T2 Wear//Tear Eidolon, T2 play Kingpin, T3 Sram to win
Match #8 Burn 5-3
G1 T2 I play Kingpin, T3 he taps out, I play Sram and win.
G2 No Protection/Forge-Tender, he burns and Path's me to death.
G3 Fizzle T2 with Paly/Voltron up, He T2 Eidolon, T3 get down Kingpin and voltron, He has burnt me to 7 life, he is at 8. He passes his T3, T4 I swing with 4/12 vigilance kingpin, he has 2 cards, 1 of which is a deflecting palm he sided in for grapeshot errantly...sure works here. I go to 3. His T4 he top-decks Lavaspike....dayam.
Match #9 G/W Tron (6-3)
G1 She paths a paladin after I fizzle T2, but I had drawn another + a kingpin. T3 with Mox both are out. T4 retract into kill.
G2 T1 Thoughtseize on path, she has no other interaction, I kill T3.
So far the only sb card you've needed was wear//tear if that's the case we can take some actual info about sbing from this.
Why the thoughseize over a 4th IOK? Fringe use against murderous cut?
From your brief writeup is looks like kingpin put in serious work.
Your list looks like it doesn't need seachrome coast. What was your experience with it? Did you ever have to mulligan a coast+IOK hand and that was your only land? It seems to me that T1 black is more important than T3 blue if coast is drawn. Or is it not a third black source to prevent the occasional (though rare) 3 BW mana with no Opal and a retract stuck in hand?
Thoughtseize was there for Cryptic Command or Murderous Cut / other fringe stuff over 4 cmc when comboing off. Hitting their hand with that before grapeshot made me feel safer if they did have any mana. The discard in general was almost always the first to be sided out, but did get me a few games where they tapped out T2 thinking I was on Abzan, and a few games where they sided in leylines. If they were on white I generally - IoKx2, -TS, -Spidersilk Net, +2 Echoing Truths, +2 WT, keeping one IoK for the combo info/protection.
I have had a situation where I had no opal and no blue for retract, thinking on it though I believe the odds are higher that I may get hosed without black T1, which hasn't happened yet, but probably has a higher chance. This brings me to one of my biggest realizations. I have been siding down to 18 Cheeri0s + G-SGuant for a month now and it never felt short on the 0's. Without the Serum Visions getting to that 2 mana is much more important for this build as the kingpins act as a big-butted serum vision+ T2 if I get them down, so I may bump to 16 land to decrease the mull to 5's with engine and 1 land. I already have 10 cards that grant me a keep, may as well be ready to play them.
Here are the bare-bones match break-downs...starving so holler if you have questions.
Match #1 Kiki-Chord/ Eldritch Evo (0-1)
Mull to 5 2 times, don't see 2nd land until too late. Lose in a sweep.
Match #2 Coco Merfolk + PtE (1-1)
G1 I kill T3/no interaction.
G2 He stony silences T2, I Wear//Tear on his EoT, I kill him T3.
Match #3 Merfolk (2-1)
G1 I kill T3.
G2 I Kill T3.
Match #4 G/R Aggro (3-1)
G1 Kingpin is MvP, I win with 1 life after blocking + Lifelink on T4.
G2 Same, but T3.
Match #5 U/W Control (4-1)
G1 I T2 Sram and go off, he has a case of WTFs.
G2 IoK his PtE T1, T2 Kingpin, T3 Paladin to win.
Match #6 G/R Aggro 4-2
G1 Mull to 5, never see land 2, he thinks I am Abzan.
G2 T1 IoK Bolt, T2 Kingpin (he goes cross-eyed), T3 Paladin into kill.
G3 Mull to 5, never see land 2 and lose.
Match #7 Burn 5-2
G1 T1 Toughseize Eidolon, T2 Sram fizzle, T3 draw retract/play Kingpin, T4 IoK bolt/play paladin/win
G2 End of his T2 Wear//Tear Eidolon, T2 play Kingpin, T3 Sram to win
Match #8 Burn 5-3
G1 T2 I play Kingpin, T3 he taps out, I play Sram and win.
G2 No Protection/Forge-Tender, he burns and Path's me to death.
G3 Fizzle T2 with Paly/Voltron up, He T2 Eidolon, T3 get down Kingpin and voltron, He has burnt me to 7 life, he is at 8. He passes his T3, T4 I swing with 4/12 vigilance kingpin, he has 2 cards, 1 of which is a deflecting palm he sided in for grapeshot errantly...sure works here. I go to 3. His T4 he top-decks Lavaspike....dayam.
Match #9 G/W Tron (6-3)
G1 She paths a paladin after I fizzle T2, but I had drawn another + a kingpin. T3 with Mox both are out. T4 retract into kill.
G2 T1 Thoughtseize on path, she has no other interaction, I kill T3.
So far the only sb card you've needed was wear//tear if that's the case we can take some actual info about sbing from this.
I missed the bouncing of a Thalia with Echoing Truth in my description in one game. It made me feel safe when I drew it post board in a few other match's, and at worst could have been a mini/expensive retract. Also, thanks for putting the list into the correct format.
Why the thoughseize over a 4th IOK? Fringe use against murderous cut?
From your brief writeup is looks like kingpin put in serious work.
Your list looks like it doesn't need seachrome coast. What was your experience with it? Did you ever have to mulligan a coast+IOK hand and that was your only land? It seems to me that T1 black is more important than T3 blue if coast is drawn. Or is it not a third black source to prevent the occasional (though rare) 3 BW mana with no Opal and a retract stuck in hand?
Thoughtseize was there for Cryptic Command or Murderous Cut / other fringe stuff over 4 cmc when comboing off. Hitting their hand with that before grapeshot made me feel safer if they did have any mana. The discard in general was almost always the first to be sided out, but did get me a few games where they tapped out T2 thinking I was on Abzan, and a few games where they sided in leylines. If they were on white I generally - IoKx2, -TS, -Spidersilk Net, +2 Echoing Truths, +2 WT, keeping one IoK for the combo info/protection.
I have had a situation where I had no opal and no blue for retract, thinking on it though I believe the odds are higher that I may get hosed without black T1, which hasn't happened yet, but probably has a higher chance. This brings me to one of my biggest realizations. I have been siding down to 18 Cheeri0s + G-SGuant for a month now and it never felt short on the 0's. Without the Serum Visions getting to that 2 mana is much more important for this build as the kingpins act as a big-butted serum vision+ T2 if I get them down, so I may bump to 16 land to decrease the mull to 5's with engine and 1 land. I already have 10 cards that grant me a keep, may as well be ready to play them.
If you aren't play SV, you definitely need 16-17 lands. Mulligans happen with 15 lands and 4 SV, so if you're at 15 lands and no SV you're going to lose games to variance before they even start. I wonder if the black splash is really worth it when Song accomplishes many of the same things. Discard is better when you can go T1 discard into T2 engine, but Song is better when you can go T3 engine with Song backup. I think they are probably about even with maybe a tiny edge to discard, but I think that edge is taken away because you need the black mana, can't really run SV, and can run into blue problems after that initial land drop.
If you aren't play SV, you definitely need 16-17 lands. Mulligans happen with 15 lands and 4 SV, so if you're at 15 lands and no SV you're going to lose games to variance before they even start. I wonder if the black splash is really worth it when Song accomplishes many of the same things. Discard is better when you can go T1 discard into T2 engine, but Song is better when you can go T3 engine with Song backup. I think they are probably about even with maybe a tiny edge to discard, but I think that edge is taken away because you need the black mana, can't really run SV, and can run into blue problems after that initial land drop.
Besides the delay there's also the problem that T3 engine + song backup requires three mana. I don't know the full mathematical breakdown over which one is optimal but with all of the fetches able to get Godless Shrine and only 15-17 lands overall I would bet the T1 discard -> t2 engine happens more often than three straight land drops + engine + song. The provided list also runs more discard than the standard list runs songs.
If you aren't play SV, you definitely need 16-17 lands. Mulligans happen with 15 lands and 4 SV, so if you're at 15 lands and no SV you're going to lose games to variance before they even start. I wonder if the black splash is really worth it when Song accomplishes many of the same things. Discard is better when you can go T1 discard into T2 engine, but Song is better when you can go T3 engine with Song backup. I think they are probably about even with maybe a tiny edge to discard, but I think that edge is taken away because you need the black mana, can't really run SV, and can run into blue problems after that initial land drop.
Besides the delay there's also the problem that T3 engine + song backup requires three mana. I don't know the full mathematical breakdown over which one is optimal but with all of the fetches able to get Godless Shrine and only 15-17 lands overall I would bet the T1 discard -> t2 engine happens more often than three straight land drops + engine + song. The provided list also runs more discard than the standard list runs songs.
Yes, but at the cost of 0 SV. I haven't tested it, but judging from my experience with the blue list, and the success of other blue-based lists (both Cheeri0s and other blue-based combos), I really don't think it's right to ditch your variance reducers for protection. I really struggle to think of any successful combo lists in any format that did this. Discard spells are bad topdecks if you get disrupted in any way. SV is never a bad topdeck and is even good during the combo chain.
If you aren't play SV, you definitely need 16-17 lands. Mulligans happen with 15 lands and 4 SV, so if you're at 15 lands and no SV you're going to lose games to variance before they even start. I wonder if the black splash is really worth it when Song accomplishes many of the same things. Discard is better when you can go T1 discard into T2 engine, but Song is better when you can go T3 engine with Song backup. I think they are probably about even with maybe a tiny edge to discard, but I think that edge is taken away because you need the black mana, can't really run SV, and can run into blue problems after that initial land drop.
Besides the delay there's also the problem that T3 engine + song backup requires three mana. I don't know the full mathematical breakdown over which one is optimal but with all of the fetches able to get Godless Shrine and only 15-17 lands overall I would bet the T1 discard -> t2 engine happens more often than three straight land drops + engine + song. The provided list also runs more discard than the standard list runs songs.
Yes, but at the cost of 0 SV. I haven't tested it, but judging from my experience with the blue list, and the success of other blue-based lists (both Cheeri0s and other blue-based combos), I really don't think it's right to ditch your variance reducers for protection. I really struggle to think of any successful combo lists in any format that did this. Discard spells are bad topdecks if you get disrupted in any way. SV is never a bad topdeck and is even good during the combo chain.
You could be right that the smoothing is more important. My only point is that using the mana before the combo turn instead of during it is a big deal for a deck like this. I do disagree about SV mid-combo. Sucking up a blue mana during the combo turn is going to make it a lot harder to play a second draw engine mid combo and could block you from using Hurkyl's Recall. For Preordain I think it would be worth it but for Serum Visions I'm skeptical.
Would you really keep a seven card hand with SV and no draw engine? You're 59% to hit an engine in six and then 52% to hit an engine in five. With the seven card hand you are 40% to see an engine in the top three cards.
Personally I prefer the SSG build and a speed conquers all approach over either the discard or the counters, but that's just me.
You could be right that the smoothing is more important. My only point is that using the mana before the combo turn instead of during it is a big deal for a deck like this. I do disagree about SV mid-combo. Sucking up a blue mana during the combo turn is going to make it a lot harder to play a second draw engine mid combo and could block you from using Hurkyl's Recall. For Preordain I think it would be worth it but for Serum Visions I'm skeptical.
There is not a blue-based combo deck in Modern that doesn't use SV. Digging three deep to find an engine, missing land, or other missing card is still good even if it isn't as good as Preordain. It is completely inaccurate to say that SV sucks up mana mid-combo. I've prevented numerous fizzles due to firing an SV in the middle of a combo to dig for the Retract. It might later block you from using Hurkyl's, but the number of games where you need to dig with SV to find Recall and hit Recall but not Retract is very small. At least, it is much smaller than the number of games where you dig for Retract itself or another card.
Would you really keep a seven card hand with SV and no draw engine? You're 59% to hit an engine in six and then 52% to hit an engine in five. With the seven card hand you are 40% to see an engine in the top three cards.
In G2-G3, I might, especially against a BGx deck. I'd also definitely keep a playable 6 card hand with SV and no engine against removal-heavy decks. I'd never keep a playable 6-7 card hand with no engine and a discard spell instead of an SV. That means I'm in pure topdeck mode. The SV means I get to dig three cards to find that engine. Again, SV is a variance reducer. It is almost never correct to not play these cards in blue-based combo decks. Just look at the history of basically every successful blue-based combo deck ever.
Personally I prefer the SSG build and a speed conquers all approach over either the discard or the counters, but that's just me.
I can definitely see how that would fit a certain playstyle. That said, it also has no results. At least the blue-based SV version has results, most recently Taufik's 9-0 run on Day 1 of GP Brisbane. I can see personal preference leaning a player towards the all-in build, but the other builds have a much better track record.
There is not a blue-based combo deck in Modern that doesn't use SV. Digging three deep to find an engine, missing land, or other missing card is still good even if it isn't as good as Preordain. It is completely inaccurate to say that SV sucks up mana mid-combo. I've prevented numerous fizzles due to firing an SV in the middle of a combo to dig for the Retract. It might later block you from using Hurkyl's, but the number of games where you need to dig with SV to find Recall and hit Recall but not Retract is very small. At least, it is much smaller than the number of games where you dig for Retract itself or another card.
Though there aren't any non-blue based combo decks in modern that don't use SV, that doesn't make the choice wrong. Kingpin seems to do the same job in this way. Also consider that blue based combo decks have the luxury of reducing variance throught cards like SV, whereas or variance needs to be reduced mid combo, not pre combo.
Not saying that one out the other is wrong, and SV had saved me mid combo a couple of times, I think I might prefer to scry 1 off of each equipment drop. In a way this even gives us additional ways of hitting get he engine or retract. Kingpin doesn't replace itself like SV, but I don't think the top deck manipulation is so terridly different and could probably use a few more folks testing it.
Also, be aware that I have playstyle and confirmation bias as I started in the format with 8rack and have consistently played T1 discard decks.
It may also be worth noting that his game winight percentage for the day is 77.8% which is solid and consistent with what many of us have seen with the deck (14/18 games played based on the report, only 1 lost round went 0-2). Yes, small sample, and Sheridan is an actual statistician so I feel like I've just brought a stick to a gun fight, but it seems worth noticing. 6-3 at a GP isn't terrible by any definition.
I run Paradoxical Outcome as a sideboard card in a list with Ssg. It really makes you able to chain them into each other together with moxes. 2 Grapeshots also help in such a list.
Yeah, Outcome is amazing. I don't regret ditching Leyline for Outcome for a second. Interestingly, Taufik didn't end up running them at Brisbane. Looks like he's on 2 Mentor for the BGx matchup, which never worked for me but maybe he has some insight into why that plan is better.
Though there aren't any non-blue based combo decks in modern that don't use SV, that doesn't make the choice wrong. Kingpin seems to do the same job in this way. Also consider that blue based combo decks have the luxury of reducing variance throught cards like SV, whereas or variance needs to be reduced mid combo, not pre combo.
SV reduces variance pre-combo, mid-combo, and post-disruption. I've used it for all these purposes and the cases where it is bad are far less than those where it is great. I fully believe it is wrong to not run these cards in a blue-based Modern combo deck, and I challenge anyone to find a historic or current example of a blue-based Modern combo deck where you didn't want to run cantrips.
Not saying that one out the other is wrong, and SV had saved me mid combo a couple of times, I think I might prefer to scry 1 off of each equipment drop. In a way this even gives us additional ways of hitting get he engine or retract. Kingpin doesn't replace itself like SV, but I don't think the top deck manipulation is so terridly different and could probably use a few more folks testing it.
Kingpin is interesting. It's Bolt-proof, better alone on the board than solo Riddlesmith, and even pretty decent as engine #2 with a Paladin already out (less good with Sram). I'm curious to see how it would work and would love to hear more about it.
It may also be worth noting that his game winight percentage for the day is 77.8% which is solid and consistent with what many of us have seen with the deck (14/18 games played based on the report, only 1 lost round went 0-2). Yes, small sample, and Sheridan is an actual statistician so I feel like I've just brought a stick to a gun fight, but it seems worth noticing. 6-3 at a GP isn't terrible by any definition.
I don't think the deck is bad with discard instead of SV. It's still a really strong engine and combo, and the black disruption is definitely giving an edge that the Songs and SVs don't give. That said, I believe the 6-3 finish speaks more to the underlying engine's strength and not the strength of a black splash specifically. I could be wrong about this because my experience is overwhelmingly with the blue version. But the historical results for this deck and others, plus the strengths of the blue cards, almost invariably point to blue and SV being the proper way to build it.
4 Rugged Prairie
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Cascade Bluff
1 Plains
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mox Opal
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Retract
2 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
3 Kite Shield
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Silence
3 Path to Exile
3 Echoing Truth
2 Wear // Tear
Card choices
Arid Mesa: Happens to be the fetch that I own. Decent camouflage (Arid Mesa -> go looks like burn or zoo) but a scattering of fetches would be better vs. pithing needle.
Sacred Foundry: Supports Wear // Tear out of the side at low cost. Without Serum Visions we don't need turn one blue mana as badly and once you start going off it doesn't really matter.
Noxious Revival: Worse than an equipment when you're digging for your first retract but otherwise usually better. Gives an out to Thoughtseize/IoK on grapeshot and lets you grapeshot Thalia.
Sideboard
Removing up to three kite shields, up to one SSG, and up to one Hurkyl's Recall leaves you with a shell that looks a lot like the standard Cheeri0s build with Serum Visions and Swan Song taken out. I think the sideboarding plan is pretty similar.
Leyline of Sanctity: Comes in against anybody packing 6+ targeted discard spells.
Silence: Decks like Burn and Grixis Control can kill all of our draw engines as they come into play. Silence at least gives us a fighting chance though it still doesn't feel great. While Favor of the Mighty is neat it is a little slow and is a huge nonbo against opposing Eidolons.
Path to Exile: Handles pesky creature hosers.
Wear // Tear: Handles pesky artifact and enchantment hosers, sometimes both at the same time.
Echoing Truth: Handles every kind of hoser but just for one turn. If I'm not sure what to bring in I'll usually have at least one or two of these.
I like this build a lot. I think some number of SSG are correct since we pretty much live or die on our speed. I don't think three card draw spells and two counters add that much consistency or resiliency. I'd rather go off as early and consistently as possible in game one and then bring in solutions for particular problems post board.
This is my first post on mtgsalvation. I am a Legacy (UB Reanimator) and Standard (Whatever is winning) player at heart. Today, however, was the first time that I played a modern event and I choose to start my modern journey with a good breakfast.
I went to FNM without knowing the field (and a lot of cards) and walked out with a 4-1 record and a free pass to Amonkhet PreRelease on april. Sounds great - and it was!. The deck is very fun to pilot (but being across the table from it probably sucks).
Well, here's my 75:
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
1 Grapeshot
2 Noxious Revival
3 Retract
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Swan Song
2 Serum Visions
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
2 Bone saw
3 Kite Shield
4 Windspwept Heath
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Plains
4 Fragmentize
3 Path to Exile
2 Favor of the Mighty
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
2 Echoing Truths
2 Paradoxical Outcome
MAINDECK
1. You may notice that I run only 3 retracts and 2 recalls. That's because my fourth retract is still on mail.
2. I love Noxious Revival flexibility. Definitely 2/1 split with grapeshot.
3. The fetchs are not optimal, but I started playing on KTK and they're all I have.
SIDEBOARD
1. I don't have leylines and they seemed really awkward to draw middle combo. I prefer to mulligan chasing my engines.
2. I'm not sold on Silence.
3. Mentor and Aether Grid are my alterantive wincons.
4. Paths for Thalia and other annoying creatures, fragmentize for leylines, eidolons, chalices, etc.
5. Echoing truths is very good against pretty much anything, specially when you don't know what to expect. Favor of the might won me some games against control. Paradoxical was for - of course - BGx matchups.
Now that you all know my list, here's my report:
MATCH 1 - NAYA EVOLUTION (1-0)
First match was with some brew that I had never ever heard. He was a friend of mine, so he knew what I was on. He wins the roll and goes T1 fetch. I go T1 fetch, he goes T2 birds and I play another fetch, crack, paladin. T3 he goes evolution sacrificing birds to magus of the moon. T3 I play mox, paradise mantle, another paladin and combo off.
Game 2 I mulligan to 5 and he lands an early white eidolon. I never find my second land and he wins easily with eidolon and voice of ressurgence beatdown.
Game 3 I keep a hand with no engines, but a lot of sideboard cards. He taps for white eidolon on T3, I fragmentize it on my turn and combo off.
MATCH 2 - TRON (2-0)
He wins the roll and open with land, sphere. I play fetch, go. He then plays collective brutality. Oops, too soon. I show my hand with only one target and two engines and he sighs. I play one on my T2, he sylvan scries, and on my T3 I went off with two engines. He scooped
on the second retract, even before I drew grapeshot.
Game 2 I mulligan to find a really good hand. He muligans to 5. He finds his removal (brutality) one turn late - my paladin was already 3/8. I won in the next turn. Really easy matchup.
MATCH 3 - Taking Turns (2-1)
There's not much to say about these games. Game 1 I mulligan to 5 and never find a second land. Game 2 I played a Favor of the Mighty and he plays a Vendillion on my endstep. OOOOOPS. However, I was able to combo off in the next turn anyway. Game 3 I mulligan to 4 and got all my engines countered. Whatever, that's the price we pay.
MATCH 4 - Grixis Control (3-1)
Won the dice roll. Play flooded strand and opponent says "Oh, control mirror". Next turn I combo off (I <3 Mox Opal).
Game 2 I mulligan to 4. I find a Paladin, he counters it, I counter his counter. He let it resolve and then fatal pushes my paladin. The swan token - a Spearow that I had in my deckbox - beats me up until I die.
Game 3 was his time to mulligan to oblivion. He goes to 5, finds two removal. E play paladin and he pushes. T3 I play Favor, he looks at his hand and says nothing. T4 paladin + sram and comboed off, while my opponent had lightning bolt sitting on his hand.
MATCH 5 - GRISHOAL BRAND (4-1)
No BGx must be some kind of miracle. In this match, I was extremely lucky. Game 1 he didn't even know what the deck was trying to do ("Why are you counting storm?") and I comboed off easily on T4 after one removal. Game 2 I keep a hand with 3 engines, one land, one cheerio and one path. My opponent got super unlucky and can't find his combo pieces after drawing a ton of cards. I find my second land on turn 5 and start the combo. He starts to look at me super bored. Trying to be a nice guy, I stopped the combo when I had lethal. He answers with shoal, gaining a ton of life and asks me if I will pass the turn. I get a little salty, because I only played grapeshot so early to end his misery - and he knew that I could keep it going. However, I say "nop", noxious my grapeshot, draw another ton of cards and deal another 25+ damage on him.
--
Overall, it was a very fun deck to play. I mulliganed pretty hard to find my engines, and most of the time it did pay off. The deck is not so soft for removal as I first thought - but I did not play against Jund, so IDK really. I think that I got very lucky on my matchups as well. People will probably be ready for cheeri0s next friday, so I'll probably just play standard lol.
THINGS THAT I WILL CHANGE
1. Dropping the mentor on the side. I almost never wanted him in my 60 and never drew him when I wanted it. Probably will go with another Ghirapur Aether Grid (helps with jund, I guess?). Suggestions?
2. My retract is coming, but I'll definitely keep one Hurkyl's Recall on mainboard.
3. -2 Fragmentize + 2 wear/tear on sideboard just to diversify answers. Also, instant speed is very cool.
THINGS THAT I LEARNED TODAY
1. Always go for the full grapeshot, even if your opponent looks bored and tapped out. You never know when they have weird stuff to do by exiling things from their hands.
2. Most of the time, the right answer is to try to combo off when you have one engine on the table. If you fail, you'll probably have another chance next turn.
3. It's super weird to handle hands after drawing 20 or 30 cards on one turn. Suggestions?
4. This deck is even more cooler than it looks like.
Well, that was my FNM. Hope you enjoy my report. Most of my decisions were based on the discussions of this thread, so I'm very pleased to give it back to the community. Sorry for any english related problems, it's not my first language.
Cheer(i0)s!
There seem to be feature matches but I can't find the stream.
Edit: Also he has the highest win % in the room at >76%.
Edit2: My bad, apparently a couple of x-1s have 77%, edging him slightly in games but down in points.
EDIT: 9-0 WE MADE IT
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Creatures
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
2 Contraband Kingpin
Equipment
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Paradsise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
3 Bone Saw
1 Golem-skin Gauntlets
Other
4 Retract
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
Mana
4 Mox Opal
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Concealed Courtyard
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
Sideboard
3 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Silence
3 Path to Eile
2 Echoing Truth
2 Wear//Tear
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
Here are the bare-bones match break-downs...starving so holler if you have questions.
Match #1 Kiki-Chord/ Eldritch Evo (0-1)
Mull to 5 2 times, don't see 2nd land until too late. Lose in a sweep.
Match #2 Coco Merfolk + PtE (1-1)
G1 I kill T3/no interaction.
G2 He stony silences T2, I Wear//Tear on his EoT, I kill him T3.
Match #3 Merfolk (2-1)
G1 I kill T3.
G2 I Kill T3.
Match #4 G/R Aggro (3-1)
G1 Kingpin is MvP, I win with 1 life after blocking + Lifelink on T4.
G2 Same, but T3.
Match #5 U/W Control (4-1)
G1 I T2 Sram and go off, he has a case of WTFs.
G2 IoK his PtE T1, T2 Kingpin, T3 Paladin to win.
Match #6 G/R Aggro 4-2
G1 Mull to 5, never see land 2, he thinks I am Abzan.
G2 T1 IoK Bolt, T2 Kingpin (he goes cross-eyed), T3 Paladin into kill.
G3 Mull to 5, never see land 2 and lose.
Match #7 Burn 5-2
G1 T1 Toughseize Eidolon, T2 Sram fizzle, T3 draw retract/play Kingpin, T4 IoK bolt/play paladin/win
G2 End of his T2 Wear//Tear Eidolon, T2 play Kingpin, T3 Sram to win
Match #8 Burn 5-3
G1 T2 I play Kingpin, T3 he taps out, I play Sram and win.
G2 No Protection/Forge-Tender, he burns and Path's me to death.
G3 Fizzle T2 with Paly/Voltron up, He T2 Eidolon, T3 get down Kingpin and voltron, He has burnt me to 7 life, he is at 8. He passes his T3, T4 I swing with 4/12 vigilance kingpin, he has 2 cards, 1 of which is a deflecting palm he sided in for grapeshot errantly...sure works here. I go to 3. His T4 he top-decks Lavaspike....dayam.
Match #9 G/W Tron (6-3)
G1 She paths a paladin after I fizzle T2, but I had drawn another + a kingpin. T3 with Mox both are out. T4 retract into kill.
G2 T1 Thoughtseize on path, she has no other interaction, I kill T3.
Why the thoughseize over a 4th IOK? Fringe use against murderous cut?
From your brief writeup is looks like kingpin put in serious work.
Your list looks like it doesn't need seachrome coast. What was your experience with it? Did you ever have to mulligan a coast+IOK hand and that was your only land? It seems to me that T1 black is more important than T3 blue if coast is drawn. Or is it not a third black source to prevent the occasional (though rare) 3 BW mana with no Opal and a retract stuck in hand?
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
So far the only sb card you've needed was wear//tear if that's the case we can take some actual info about sbing from this.
Thoughtseize was there for Cryptic Command or Murderous Cut / other fringe stuff over 4 cmc when comboing off. Hitting their hand with that before grapeshot made me feel safer if they did have any mana. The discard in general was almost always the first to be sided out, but did get me a few games where they tapped out T2 thinking I was on Abzan, and a few games where they sided in leylines. If they were on white I generally - IoKx2, -TS, -Spidersilk Net, +2 Echoing Truths, +2 WT, keeping one IoK for the combo info/protection.
I have had a situation where I had no opal and no blue for retract, thinking on it though I believe the odds are higher that I may get hosed without black T1, which hasn't happened yet, but probably has a higher chance. This brings me to one of my biggest realizations. I have been siding down to 18 Cheeri0s + G-SGuant for a month now and it never felt short on the 0's. Without the Serum Visions getting to that 2 mana is much more important for this build as the kingpins act as a big-butted serum vision+ T2 if I get them down, so I may bump to 16 land to decrease the mull to 5's with engine and 1 land. I already have 10 cards that grant me a keep, may as well be ready to play them.
I missed the bouncing of a Thalia with Echoing Truth in my description in one game. It made me feel safe when I drew it post board in a few other match's, and at worst could have been a mini/expensive retract. Also, thanks for putting the list into the correct format.
If you aren't play SV, you definitely need 16-17 lands. Mulligans happen with 15 lands and 4 SV, so if you're at 15 lands and no SV you're going to lose games to variance before they even start. I wonder if the black splash is really worth it when Song accomplishes many of the same things. Discard is better when you can go T1 discard into T2 engine, but Song is better when you can go T3 engine with Song backup. I think they are probably about even with maybe a tiny edge to discard, but I think that edge is taken away because you need the black mana, can't really run SV, and can run into blue problems after that initial land drop.
Besides the delay there's also the problem that T3 engine + song backup requires three mana. I don't know the full mathematical breakdown over which one is optimal but with all of the fetches able to get Godless Shrine and only 15-17 lands overall I would bet the T1 discard -> t2 engine happens more often than three straight land drops + engine + song. The provided list also runs more discard than the standard list runs songs.
Yes, but at the cost of 0 SV. I haven't tested it, but judging from my experience with the blue list, and the success of other blue-based lists (both Cheeri0s and other blue-based combos), I really don't think it's right to ditch your variance reducers for protection. I really struggle to think of any successful combo lists in any format that did this. Discard spells are bad topdecks if you get disrupted in any way. SV is never a bad topdeck and is even good during the combo chain.
You could be right that the smoothing is more important. My only point is that using the mana before the combo turn instead of during it is a big deal for a deck like this. I do disagree about SV mid-combo. Sucking up a blue mana during the combo turn is going to make it a lot harder to play a second draw engine mid combo and could block you from using Hurkyl's Recall. For Preordain I think it would be worth it but for Serum Visions I'm skeptical.
Would you really keep a seven card hand with SV and no draw engine? You're 59% to hit an engine in six and then 52% to hit an engine in five. With the seven card hand you are 40% to see an engine in the top three cards.
Personally I prefer the SSG build and a speed conquers all approach over either the discard or the counters, but that's just me.
There is not a blue-based combo deck in Modern that doesn't use SV. Digging three deep to find an engine, missing land, or other missing card is still good even if it isn't as good as Preordain. It is completely inaccurate to say that SV sucks up mana mid-combo. I've prevented numerous fizzles due to firing an SV in the middle of a combo to dig for the Retract. It might later block you from using Hurkyl's, but the number of games where you need to dig with SV to find Recall and hit Recall but not Retract is very small. At least, it is much smaller than the number of games where you dig for Retract itself or another card.
In G2-G3, I might, especially against a BGx deck. I'd also definitely keep a playable 6 card hand with SV and no engine against removal-heavy decks. I'd never keep a playable 6-7 card hand with no engine and a discard spell instead of an SV. That means I'm in pure topdeck mode. The SV means I get to dig three cards to find that engine. Again, SV is a variance reducer. It is almost never correct to not play these cards in blue-based combo decks. Just look at the history of basically every successful blue-based combo deck ever.
I can definitely see how that would fit a certain playstyle. That said, it also has no results. At least the blue-based SV version has results, most recently Taufik's 9-0 run on Day 1 of GP Brisbane. I can see personal preference leaning a player towards the all-in build, but the other builds have a much better track record.
Went from maybe 40-60 to 55-45. Card was sick. "Oh no, you stopped my Turn 2 kill with Push! Turn 3 Opal, 4 equipments, EOT draw 5?"
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Though there aren't any non-blue based combo decks in modern that don't use SV, that doesn't make the choice wrong. Kingpin seems to do the same job in this way. Also consider that blue based combo decks have the luxury of reducing variance throught cards like SV, whereas or variance needs to be reduced mid combo, not pre combo.
Not saying that one out the other is wrong, and SV had saved me mid combo a couple of times, I think I might prefer to scry 1 off of each equipment drop. In a way this even gives us additional ways of hitting get he engine or retract. Kingpin doesn't replace itself like SV, but I don't think the top deck manipulation is so terridly different and could probably use a few more folks testing it.
Also, be aware that I have playstyle and confirmation bias as I started in the format with 8rack and have consistently played T1 discard decks.
It may also be worth noting that his game winight percentage for the day is 77.8% which is solid and consistent with what many of us have seen with the deck (14/18 games played based on the report, only 1 lost round went 0-2). Yes, small sample, and Sheridan is an actual statistician so I feel like I've just brought a stick to a gun fight, but it seems worth noticing. 6-3 at a GP isn't terrible by any definition.
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Yeah, Outcome is amazing. I don't regret ditching Leyline for Outcome for a second. Interestingly, Taufik didn't end up running them at Brisbane. Looks like he's on 2 Mentor for the BGx matchup, which never worked for me but maybe he has some insight into why that plan is better.
SV reduces variance pre-combo, mid-combo, and post-disruption. I've used it for all these purposes and the cases where it is bad are far less than those where it is great. I fully believe it is wrong to not run these cards in a blue-based Modern combo deck, and I challenge anyone to find a historic or current example of a blue-based Modern combo deck where you didn't want to run cantrips.
Kingpin is interesting. It's Bolt-proof, better alone on the board than solo Riddlesmith, and even pretty decent as engine #2 with a Paladin already out (less good with Sram). I'm curious to see how it would work and would love to hear more about it.
I don't think the deck is bad with discard instead of SV. It's still a really strong engine and combo, and the black disruption is definitely giving an edge that the Songs and SVs don't give. That said, I believe the 6-3 finish speaks more to the underlying engine's strength and not the strength of a black splash specifically. I could be wrong about this because my experience is overwhelmingly with the blue version. But the historical results for this deck and others, plus the strengths of the blue cards, almost invariably point to blue and SV being the proper way to build it.
I'm wondering now if a Kingpin Tezz combo deck is possible with 4 Outcomes and 0cmc artifacts that are actually useful.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.