You name whichever you have. I'm on the fence about it, though. I was 100% sure that 4 maindeck was correct but I'm starting to doubt. It depends on how much blue we start seeing in the meta, I think more people will turn to removal to stop The Beast as it's more reliable.
Also, be aware that Mindbreak Trap and Dispel will hit your Retracts. Against blue decks, be ready to have that fight mid-combo.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
-cavern of souls. 4x maindeck. every U based deck became just a bay. i played against uw and bant spirit. i won, but only thanks to cavern.
Genuinely baffled by this. What are you naming? Sram and Puresteel don't share a type. Also, if it's a Spirits build, it's worth calling out that Queller exiles; it doesn't counter.
Yeah, I'm really not on the Cavern train. Caverns could perhaps be good in the SB in certain matchups, but it seems really bad maindeck. You can't cast SV off it and you can only cast Paladin off it if you name Knight or Human. If you do that, you can't cast an uncounterable Sram with it. I totally understand including some in the SB for heavy blue metagames, but maindecking them can't be right.
Aether Grid sounded nice but I wasn't impressed with it. I never thought I would see the day Silence would the be the card I'm cutting from my sideboard, but 3 Path & 2 Echoing Truth gives me game against Burn, PO is amazing in some matchups and multiple decks are running infinite life combos plus there is a faster Soul Sisters variant in my meta so I needed a slot for the Maniac. I can't to to believe I cut a Silence for it but this is what I ran tonight. The Island is a meta call as there is a ton of Blood Moon locally.
I went 3-2, beating Tron, a WB creature combo brew and Affinity(won T3 & T2), and lost to UBR control and Protean Hulk combo (lost T3 & T4). I was very close to winning the matches I lost, and the Tron player punted game 3. Echoing Truth was great and won me two games, and a top decked Vendilion Clique took it from my hand with Blood Moon in play or I likely win game 2 against control.
Didn't do well in a recent GPT because I was struggling through a meta that seemed rather well prepared, with multiple decks boarding in Chalice *and* Trinisphere(!) against me.
Regarding the talk about sideboards, I did have a chance to bring in Molten Nursery and was very pleased with being able to clear away the board and buy time against Chalice since it's a cast trigger.
Thanks everyone for the constant work and inspiration!
You are wrong, if the win infinite life but you create infinite damage, you win.
Also I think am artifact IS less risky than a creature.
kirtash is correct here that Elixir allows us to beat the Abzan combo, though not for the reason they seem to think (infinite damage does not automatically beat infinite life - it depends on the circumstances of how the life is gained, as well as who is the active player in some cases). We certainly can't win with a single infinitely large Grapeshot while they have the combo out - they just gain more life than the number we give in response. However, while we're generating the infinitely large Grapeshot, we can first kill a piece of the combo and stop them from being able to change their life total any further. Once that's done, we demonstrate and then shortcut the loop to make the storm count large enough to kill them. The mana for casting multiple Grapeshots while spending three for the Elixir loop shouldn't be an issue if you have Noxious in the deck - you can recur Opal each loop to generate a mana, so you can demonstrate infinite mana (as well as life and damage).
With all that said, I'm still not convinced this is necessarily a great option for Abzan combo. Keep in mind that once they do have the combo online, not only can they gain infinite life but they also get to choose what card they draw next due to the infinite scry 1, so they'll easily be able to find all their hate/most effective cards. You really only have the one turn after they go off then to try and go off
Modern: WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s! C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH: G Ezuri W Kemba WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
As far as alternate win cons go, I think aether grid is the best one, only because it can slowly kill the opponent even if an engine isn't present. Molten nursery is interesting in the face of chalice, but it doesn't stop the chalice itself, which I feel we need to do. Aether grid brings out my affinity mindset, any deck that can play stony silence will see an aether grid. So chalice probably isn't in the same board as stony silence. If it is, fragmentize will deal with that. Just my take on sbing
Ah, I didn't mention Grid as its already established and as you mentioned, does the job without an engine if necessary. Totally agree. Was referencing the lifegain situation. I wouldn't choose Mentor over Grid, nor cut Grid completely from the list, but Mentor can do some phenomenal things
@kirtash900 thanks for the explanation. You listed that you need Noxious Revival, but I don't see it being used in your line-of-play to gain infinite life/damage.
You name whichever you have. I'm on the fence about it, though. I was 100% sure that 4 maindeck was correct but I'm starting to doubt. It depends on how much blue we start seeing in the meta, I think more people will turn to removal to stop The Beast as it's more reliable.
Also, be aware that Mindbreak Trap and Dispel will hit your Retracts. Against blue decks, be ready to have that fight mid-combo.
Sorry, just to be clear, are you suggesting that the Cavern somehow helps with Dispel/Trap against your Retracts? I'm not understanding what you're suggesting in order to have "that fight."
So What are the interesting points of the SGC duel video?
It would be poor form to purchase paid content and then share it on a forum. This would be considered especially egregious behavior for a professional player like Zack, so I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a response.
You need Noxious to generate infinite mana, as your Opals will all be tied up in the loop (1 for Retracts, 3 for Elixir). You can get infinite life without it, though (as well as one infinitely large Grapeshot). If you're only casting one Grapeshot, this isn't relevant since you can just use the Elixir Opals at the end for Grapeshot mana, but if you need to cast multiple Grapeshots (in the case of Abzan when they have the combo on board) then you either need sufficient extra mana from lands/Mantles or you need the Noxious to make you a 5th Opal in the loop, generating infinite mana.
Modern: WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s! C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH: G Ezuri W Kemba WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
You need Noxious to generate infinite mana, as your Opals will all be tied up in the loop (1 for Retracts, 3 for Elixir). You can get infinite life without it, though (as well as one infinitely large Grapeshot). If you're only casting one Grapeshot, this isn't relevant since you can just use the Elixir Opals at the end for Grapeshot mana, but if you need to cast multiple Grapeshots (in the case of Abzan when they have the combo on board) then you either need sufficient extra mana from lands/Mantles or you need the Noxious to make you a 5th Opal in the loop, generating infinite mana.
As long as you're giving a master class here, if we're able to draw through our entire deck with one engine in play, what are the conditions under which we could still pull of the loop? Can it be done?
You name whichever you have. I'm on the fence about it, though. I was 100% sure that 4 maindeck was correct but I'm starting to doubt. It depends on how much blue we start seeing in the meta, I think more people will turn to removal to stop The Beast as it's more reliable.
Also, be aware that Mindbreak Trap and Dispel will hit your Retracts. Against blue decks, be ready to have that fight mid-combo.
Sorry, just to be clear, are you suggesting that the Cavern somehow helps with Dispel/Trap against your Retracts? I'm not understanding what you're suggesting in order to have "that fight."
I think he was making two separate but related points about battling control decks. The point is that if that if they are holding a counter and you use Cavern to land an engine, good players are going to use that counter on your Retract, so while you're better off in that case you're still not out of the woods.
Edit: I was running Cavern for awhile but found to many cases where it wasn't relevant in the matchup and caused me not to have a chance to go off. I can't argue that it's great against decks that can counter creatures, but overall the pain outweighed the benefits for me. I'm currently running two Seachrome Coast and on the hunt for Rugged Prairie(s).
Went to casual (as in nothing but packs at stake) modern last night. Don't have every piece yet. Was lucky to trade for a single Paradoxical Outcome right before the matches.
Here is what I ran:
Match 1 - Affinity
Game 1 - No interaction. Combo'd off turn 3.
Game 2 - +3 Silence, -1 Serum Visions, -1 Bone Saw, -1 Noxious Revival.His turn 3 he has Ornithopter + Springleaf Drum available so I was sure he had something, but I lead off with a Sram on my turn 3 and started comboing. Because he didn't do anything I didn't even think to cast the silence I drew. Grapeshot for 25, and he revealed galvanic blast in his hand. He never thought to cast it.
Match 2 - Jund
Game 1 - I fear the worst. Really sad I only had the one Paradoxical outcome. His turn 3 he leaves up 1 mana. I lead off with Sram, draw 5. Opponent is pretty giddy because he hasn't seen the deck IRL yet but laments tapping out. Play Paladin with 2 equipment in hand, draw 10 more and fizzle because I didn't draw a mox. Keep Sram, Paladin, Grapeshot, 2 Retracts, Noxious, Swan Song, and pass. His turn he taps out for 2 abrupt decays. Unfortunately my hand is too well sculpted and I win next turn.
Game 2 - +4 Silence, +1 Paradoxical Outcome, -2 Serum Visions, -2 Bone Saw, -1 Noxious Revival. He plays confidant turn 2. My turn I try to go off but fizzle after drawing 8, but one is paradoxical. Turn 3 I try to combo again but he has removal for both engines. Turn 4 I play out all my cheerios to the confusion of the opponent. End of his turn I paradoxical for 10 and he scoops.
Match 3 - Abzan - He is who I got the one paradoxical outcome from.
Game 1 - He taps out and I win on turn 3.
Game 2 - +4 Silence, +1 Paradoxical Outcome, -2 Serum Visions, -2 Bone Saw, -1 Noxious Revival. He has tons of removal and discard. I fail to combo on turn 3 with Sram. He kills Sram on his turn and extracts all of my Srams and Opals but I have paradoxical in hand with 8 equipment on the battlefield. End of his turn 4 I cast paradoxical, wiff on paladins, but on my turn I have enough to cast all my equipment, retract, cast them again and grapeshot for 22. Opponent: "Not even mad." He had brought in 2 surgical and chalice and something else.
Match 4 - Big Affinity (with Arcbound Worker) - Another matchup I expect to win.
Game 1 - I just wait till turn 3 to combo off with 2 engines.
Game 2 - +3 Silence, -1 SV, -1 Bone Saw, -1 Noxious Revival. On turn 3 I silence + Sram but fizzle. He has no interaction but does have a Vault Skirge with Plating. I combo off on turn 4 with me at 3 and him at 30.
You need Noxious to generate infinite mana, as your Opals will all be tied up in the loop (1 for Retracts, 3 for Elixir). You can get infinite life without it, though (as well as one infinitely large Grapeshot). If you're only casting one Grapeshot, this isn't relevant since you can just use the Elixir Opals at the end for Grapeshot mana, but if you need to cast multiple Grapeshots (in the case of Abzan when they have the combo on board) then you either need sufficient extra mana from lands/Mantles or you need the Noxious to make you a 5th Opal in the loop, generating infinite mana.
As long as you're giving a master class here, if we're able to draw through our entire deck with one engine in play, what are the conditions under which we could still pull of the loop? Can it be done?
One engine is certainly trickier, since as is the case with the normal win drawing your whole deck with just one engine isn't all that likely, but so long as the following are true I believe you should be able to loop regardless of how many cards are left in your deck:
1. You have 4 mana available (including Opals) to cast/activate Elixir and play Retract
2. You have at least as many Cheerios in your hand + on the battlefield as you do cards in your deck + graveyard.
3. You still have a Retract in hand (or Noxious giving you one).
At that point, you can play Retract, play Elixir, activate Elixir, play enough Cheerios to draw the deck, play Opals for mana (Noxiousing one back and playing it again to generate a net mana in the loop), and repeat. After the first repetition, the board state should be the same as the end of the first cycle (only Opals + NR + Retract in yard, no cards in deck, Elixir in play, storm count increases and you've generated a mana) and you can thus show it's a loop to shortcut (and since we're drawing the whole deck every time and not dependent on its order the randomness of shuffling shouldn't be an issue in demonstrating the loop like it is for Four Horsemen).
If instead of a Retract, you have an Elixir, you can try to go for it and hope to draw a Retract after the shuffle with your remaining Cheerios in hand, but there's definitely the fizzle possibility there.
Modern: WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s! C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH: G Ezuri W Kemba WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
Been running through the deck more and playing with the mix. I haven't had a chance to run it against any opponents yet, but the more I goldfish it I feel like 1x Paradoxical in the main is right. It's a pretty fantastic plan B in my opinion and can help pull out of the occasional game 1 fizzle. I'm actually running 2 in the main (cut an SV and a Kite Shield for them) and being able to draw 8-10 cards at times to pull out of a fizzle is great. I'm surprised how easily the deck can hit 4 mana as well.
Part of the reason for trying out 2 Paradoxical in the main is that my meta is lousy with interactive decks, so I feel like I'd be better off running it main since it would come in for probably > 50% of my matches from the board otherwise.
Now I'm debating whether or not 1-2 Horizon Canopy is worth it.
Also, be aware that Mindbreak Trap and Dispel will hit your Retracts. Against blue decks, be ready to have that fight mid-combo.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Yeah, I'm really not on the Cavern train. Caverns could perhaps be good in the SB in certain matchups, but it seems really bad maindeck. You can't cast SV off it and you can only cast Paladin off it if you name Knight or Human. If you do that, you can't cast an uncounterable Sram with it. I totally understand including some in the SB for heavy blue metagames, but maindecking them can't be right.
http://f2fseries.facetofacegames.com/facetofacegames-com-toronto-open-coverage-february-4th-2017/
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
1 Riddlesmith
Spells: 36
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
2 Cathar's Shield
2 Sigil of Distinction
3 Bone Saw
4 Retract
2 Grapeshot
1 Noxious Revival
4 Serum Visions
2 Swan Song
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Plains
1 Island
2 Echoing Truth
2 Fragmentize
1 Silence
2 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Path to Exile
4 Leyline of Sanctity
I went 3-2, beating Tron, a WB creature combo brew and Affinity(won T3 & T2), and lost to UBR control and Protean Hulk combo (lost T3 & T4). I was very close to winning the matches I lost, and the Tron player punted game 3. Echoing Truth was great and won me two games, and a top decked Vendilion Clique took it from my hand with Blood Moon in play or I likely win game 2 against control.
Didn't do well in a recent GPT because I was struggling through a meta that seemed rather well prepared, with multiple decks boarding in Chalice *and* Trinisphere(!) against me.
Regarding the talk about sideboards, I did have a chance to bring in Molten Nursery and was very pleased with being able to clear away the board and buy time against Chalice since it's a cast trigger.
Thanks everyone for the constant work and inspiration!
kirtash is correct here that Elixir allows us to beat the Abzan combo, though not for the reason they seem to think (infinite damage does not automatically beat infinite life - it depends on the circumstances of how the life is gained, as well as who is the active player in some cases). We certainly can't win with a single infinitely large Grapeshot while they have the combo out - they just gain more life than the number we give in response. However, while we're generating the infinitely large Grapeshot, we can first kill a piece of the combo and stop them from being able to change their life total any further. Once that's done, we demonstrate and then shortcut the loop to make the storm count large enough to kill them. The mana for casting multiple Grapeshots while spending three for the Elixir loop shouldn't be an issue if you have Noxious in the deck - you can recur Opal each loop to generate a mana, so you can demonstrate infinite mana (as well as life and damage).
With all that said, I'm still not convinced this is necessarily a great option for Abzan combo. Keep in mind that once they do have the combo online, not only can they gain infinite life but they also get to choose what card they draw next due to the infinite scry 1, so they'll easily be able to find all their hate/most effective cards. You really only have the one turn after they go off then to try and go off
Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
Grinding Station was another singleton we tried in sideboard, Sphinx's Tutelage as well. Most* are focused on being able to combodraw though.
I still like the Mentor route, although it doesn't help in a lot of circumstances such as lifegain.
*edit
Sorry, just to be clear, are you suggesting that the Cavern somehow helps with Dispel/Trap against your Retracts? I'm not understanding what you're suggesting in order to have "that fight."
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
It would be poor form to purchase paid content and then share it on a forum. This would be considered especially egregious behavior for a professional player like Zack, so I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a response.
Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
Edit: I was running Cavern for awhile but found to many cases where it wasn't relevant in the matchup and caused me not to have a chance to go off. I can't argue that it's great against decks that can counter creatures, but overall the pain outweighed the benefits for me. I'm currently running two Seachrome Coast and on the hunt for Rugged Prairie(s).
Here is what I ran:
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
Spells: 36
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
3 Cathar's Shield
3 Kite Shield
3 Bone Saw
4 Retract
2 Grapeshot
1 Noxious Revival
3 Serum Visions
1 Swan Song
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Plains
4 Echoing Truth
4 Silence
1 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Path to Exile
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
Match 1 - Affinity
Game 1 - No interaction. Combo'd off turn 3.
Game 2 - +3 Silence, -1 Serum Visions, -1 Bone Saw, -1 Noxious Revival.His turn 3 he has Ornithopter + Springleaf Drum available so I was sure he had something, but I lead off with a Sram on my turn 3 and started comboing. Because he didn't do anything I didn't even think to cast the silence I drew. Grapeshot for 25, and he revealed galvanic blast in his hand. He never thought to cast it.
Match 2 - Jund
Game 1 - I fear the worst. Really sad I only had the one Paradoxical outcome. His turn 3 he leaves up 1 mana. I lead off with Sram, draw 5. Opponent is pretty giddy because he hasn't seen the deck IRL yet but laments tapping out. Play Paladin with 2 equipment in hand, draw 10 more and fizzle because I didn't draw a mox. Keep Sram, Paladin, Grapeshot, 2 Retracts, Noxious, Swan Song, and pass. His turn he taps out for 2 abrupt decays. Unfortunately my hand is too well sculpted and I win next turn.
Game 2 - +4 Silence, +1 Paradoxical Outcome, -2 Serum Visions, -2 Bone Saw, -1 Noxious Revival. He plays confidant turn 2. My turn I try to go off but fizzle after drawing 8, but one is paradoxical. Turn 3 I try to combo again but he has removal for both engines. Turn 4 I play out all my cheerios to the confusion of the opponent. End of his turn I paradoxical for 10 and he scoops.
Match 3 - Abzan - He is who I got the one paradoxical outcome from.
Game 1 - He taps out and I win on turn 3.
Game 2 - +4 Silence, +1 Paradoxical Outcome, -2 Serum Visions, -2 Bone Saw, -1 Noxious Revival. He has tons of removal and discard. I fail to combo on turn 3 with Sram. He kills Sram on his turn and extracts all of my Srams and Opals but I have paradoxical in hand with 8 equipment on the battlefield. End of his turn 4 I cast paradoxical, wiff on paladins, but on my turn I have enough to cast all my equipment, retract, cast them again and grapeshot for 22. Opponent: "Not even mad." He had brought in 2 surgical and chalice and something else.
Match 4 - Big Affinity (with Arcbound Worker) - Another matchup I expect to win.
Game 1 - I just wait till turn 3 to combo off with 2 engines.
Game 2 - +3 Silence, -1 SV, -1 Bone Saw, -1 Noxious Revival. On turn 3 I silence + Sram but fizzle. He has no interaction but does have a Vault Skirge with Plating. I combo off on turn 4 with me at 3 and him at 30.
So yeah. Paradoxical was great. Affinity is easy.
One engine is certainly trickier, since as is the case with the normal win drawing your whole deck with just one engine isn't all that likely, but so long as the following are true I believe you should be able to loop regardless of how many cards are left in your deck:
1. You have 4 mana available (including Opals) to cast/activate Elixir and play Retract
2. You have at least as many Cheerios in your hand + on the battlefield as you do cards in your deck + graveyard.
3. You still have a Retract in hand (or Noxious giving you one).
At that point, you can play Retract, play Elixir, activate Elixir, play enough Cheerios to draw the deck, play Opals for mana (Noxiousing one back and playing it again to generate a net mana in the loop), and repeat. After the first repetition, the board state should be the same as the end of the first cycle (only Opals + NR + Retract in yard, no cards in deck, Elixir in play, storm count increases and you've generated a mana) and you can thus show it's a loop to shortcut (and since we're drawing the whole deck every time and not dependent on its order the randomness of shuffling shouldn't be an issue in demonstrating the loop like it is for Four Horsemen).
If instead of a Retract, you have an Elixir, you can try to go for it and hope to draw a Retract after the shuffle with your remaining Cheerios in hand, but there's definitely the fizzle possibility there.
Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
Part of the reason for trying out 2 Paradoxical in the main is that my meta is lousy with interactive decks, so I feel like I'd be better off running it main since it would come in for probably > 50% of my matches from the board otherwise.
Now I'm debating whether or not 1-2 Horizon Canopy is worth it.
Also, Modern Nexus posted a financial article about the deck: http://modernnexus.com/financial-deck-tech-cheeri0s/
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!