The online meta is absurd right now. Most recent league I zoomed out to a 2-0 start in 4 games... then got matched up against three different grixis death's shadow pilots in a row.
Last night I missed Top 8 due to a lucky top deck by my opponent when I opted to play a second Palladin over Retract and passed the turn. He had mulled to 6 on the draw and turn 1 I had played a Palladin and turn 2 I played an equipment and drew a Retract and played a second Palladin with all of my 4 equipment in play. He top decked Maelstrom Pulse to blow me out. He was embarrassed about it but all I could say was congratulations, you play a great deck that I hate losing to.
I got 3 Marsh Flats together to give black a go, but I'm missing control and feeling like a change of pace. I think I'm going to play Lantern or Jeskai Flash for a bit.
What do you all feel the best way to play against decks like burn with a lot of removal is? Do we just race them, or try to hold back a little bit?
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I have 4 burrenton forge tender in my board plus echoing truth and fragmentize. I wait till they tap out, I play a tender, or it's do or die if I only have one engine.
What do you all feel the best way to play against decks like burn with a lot of removal is? Do we just race them, or try to hold back a little bit?
Forgetender is great, I have 2 in the side. I play black, so the MD Kingpin is also fantastic vs burn. Against the rest of the heavily interactive decks you have a couple of options. Usually against such decks you are on the play G2, and the best side against them so far has been Judge's Familiar in my testing. If it can carry you to G3 you side that out for more reactive protection like additional Noxious Revival's, as the familiar doesn't deal with the big obstacle of T1 discard very well if you are on the draw.
What do you all feel the best way to play against decks like burn with a lot of removal is? Do we just race them, or try to hold back a little bit?
Forgetender is great, I have 2 in the side. I play black, so the MD Kingpin is also fantastic vs burn. Against the rest of the heavily interactive decks you have a couple of options. Usually against such decks you are on the play G2, and the best side against them so far has been Judge's Familiar in my testing. If it can carry you to G3 you side that out for more reactive protection like additional Noxious Revival's, as the familiar doesn't deal with the big obstacle of T1 discard very well if you are on the draw.
A lot of people have used swan song to great effect, but when you fizzle it's depressing getting beat down by your swan token. Most of the decks run them to go off turn three with counter magic up, it just never performed well for me
Grixis Shadow is even scarier than Jund Shadow from a matchup perspective. Same discard, same fast clock, same removal, but also Snapcaster to buy back the disruption and Denial to stop the Retracts? Bolt instead of Tarfire too? Yuck. My poor MWP is falling like a stone.
If the metagame keeps shifting away from Jund Shadow to Grixis Shadow, I'm much more inclined to try the black splash for Herald and drop Foundry entirely. I'm sure four colors isn't going to work, but UWB might. Although Herald really falls flat against Jund Shadow for a variety of reasons (e.g. Goyfs are too big, Ghor Clan + Battle Rage tramples over it, Lily sacs it, etc.), it lines up much better against Grixis. Herald beats up Tasigur, Angler, Delver, Snapcaster, and whatever other threats they are using.
No idea what this manabase would look like, because BB is still a major problem with Herald. Assuming I stick with 3 SV, I can envision really awkward scenarios where SV on T1 can't develop into either Herald or Paladin on T2. Maybe something like this:
At 15 lands, this manabase only has three lands (Shrine, Heath, Plains) that can't cast T1 SV or Song. It has zero combinations of two lands that can't develop into T2 Paladin though, and zero combinations of two lands that can't activate Heath. Unfortunately, it has numerous land pairings that can't lead to a T2 Herald (Fountain + Coast, two Coast, Plains + Fountain). It also has 9 fetches and only 6 mana-producing lands, which isn't my favorite for longer games. At 16 lands with Courtyard, you reduce the number of T2-T3 lines that don't produce Herald, but you also make T1 SV/Song worse.
That's really good to keep in mind. Thanks. I struggle a little bit with sideboarding, so I'm working on fixing up my SB skills. I'll definitely need some good practice, hopefully once school winds down to a close, I'll have some time where I can head off to FNMs.
I was thinking about picking up some leylines, the list I'm basing mine off of has 4 leylines SB, but also doesn't run SSG. Is that recommended? I don't know if anyone at locals is using Death Shadow or not. I'll have to go scout it out a little more. Though, after I graduate, I'll be moving to one of the best stores in the state, so... Woo! There'll almost certainly be Death Shadow and Jund there.
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That's really good to keep in mind. Thanks. I struggle a little bit with sideboarding, so I'm working on fixing up my SB skills. I'll definitely need some good practice, hopefully once school winds down to a close, I'll have some time where I can head off to FNMs.
I was thinking about picking up some leylines, the list I'm basing mine off of has 4 leylines SB, but also doesn't run SSG. Is that recommended? I don't know if anyone at locals is using Death Shadow or not. I'll have to go scout it out a little more. Though, after I graduate, I'll be moving to one of the best stores in the state, so... Woo! There'll almost certainly be Death Shadow and Jund there.
I used leylines for awhile, but mulling to hit one led to some crap hands that died from straight beat down. Proactive discard or a multi threat sideboard seems a more consistent path forward. Some of the others have put in a lot more reps and other thoughts
That's really good to keep in mind. Thanks. I struggle a little bit with sideboarding, so I'm working on fixing up my SB skills. I'll definitely need some good practice, hopefully once school winds down to a close, I'll have some time where I can head off to FNMs.
I was thinking about picking up some leylines, the list I'm basing mine off of has 4 leylines SB, but also doesn't run SSG. Is that recommended? I don't know if anyone at locals is using Death Shadow or not. I'll have to go scout it out a little more. Though, after I graduate, I'll be moving to one of the best stores in the state, so... Woo! There'll almost certainly be Death Shadow and Jund there.
That's really good to keep in mind. Thanks. I struggle a little bit with sideboarding, so I'm working on fixing up my SB skills. I'll definitely need some good practice, hopefully once school winds down to a close, I'll have some time where I can head off to FNMs.
I was thinking about picking up some leylines, the list I'm basing mine off of has 4 leylines SB, but also doesn't run SSG. Is that recommended? I don't know if anyone at locals is using Death Shadow or not. I'll have to go scout it out a little more. Though, after I graduate, I'll be moving to one of the best stores in the state, so... Woo! There'll almost certainly be Death Shadow and Jund there.
I used leylines for awhile, but mulling to hit one led to some crap hands that died from straight beat down. Proactive discard or a multi threat sideboard seems a more consistent path forward. Some of the others have put in a lot more reps and other thoughts
Leylines were spotty before DS decks. Against traditional Jund and Abzan, you didn't have to worry about fast clocks so you could reasonably keep 7 card hands with Leyline and no engine (as long as they had SV or Retract/Opal) and still be reasonably confident you'd stay alive long enough to draw action. You still ran into issues with dead Leyline draws later in the game or during a combo sequence, but at least you were in good shape if you opened with Leyline. Because when Leyline is active, Abzan/Jund have far more dead draws and might be stuck on slower hands with discard/Lily that can't close games quickly. Sometimes opponents keep an opener with TS/IoK/Lily plus lands and something like Ooze, in which case Leyline virtually mulls them to 4.
DS decks change this, especially DS Jund. Even if you turn off their discard, you still lose to fast clocks that kill you by T4. This is anywhere from 1-3 turns faster than you would see in the traditional BGx matchup. That means Leyline is only good in the roughly 15% of games where you have engine + Leyline + land in your opener, and very bad in the other 85% of games. It's even worse topdecked, because any given draw matters much more against a faster deck.
Even against traditional BGx, I was off Leyline and on Outcome. Outcome dodged IoK, recovered from discard if topdecked, and was the only thing that could save you from an active Lily if you were handlocked. Outcome is too slow for DS decks, but the concept lives on: you need something that both protects you from early discard and doesn't create dead draws later. Threats fit this bill much more than Leylines.
That's really good to keep in mind. Thanks. I struggle a little bit with sideboarding, so I'm working on fixing up my SB skills. I'll definitely need some good practice, hopefully once school winds down to a close, I'll have some time where I can head off to FNMs.
I was thinking about picking up some leylines, the list I'm basing mine off of has 4 leylines SB, but also doesn't run SSG. Is that recommended? I don't know if anyone at locals is using Death Shadow or not. I'll have to go scout it out a little more. Though, after I graduate, I'll be moving to one of the best stores in the state, so... Woo! There'll almost certainly be Death Shadow and Jund there.
That's really good to keep in mind. Thanks. I struggle a little bit with sideboarding, so I'm working on fixing up my SB skills. I'll definitely need some good practice, hopefully once school winds down to a close, I'll have some time where I can head off to FNMs.
I was thinking about picking up some leylines, the list I'm basing mine off of has 4 leylines SB, but also doesn't run SSG. Is that recommended? I don't know if anyone at locals is using Death Shadow or not. I'll have to go scout it out a little more. Though, after I graduate, I'll be moving to one of the best stores in the state, so... Woo! There'll almost certainly be Death Shadow and Jund there.
I used leylines for awhile, but mulling to hit one led to some crap hands that died from straight beat down. Proactive discard or a multi threat sideboard seems a more consistent path forward. Some of the others have put in a lot more reps and other thoughts
DS decks change this, especially DS Jund. Even if you turn off their discard, you still lose to fast clocks that kill you by T4. This is anywhere from 1-3 turns faster than you would see in the traditional BGx matchup. That means Leyline is only good in the roughly 15% of games where you have engine + Leyline + land in your opener, and very bad in the other 85% of games. It's even worse topdecked, because any given draw matters much more against a faster deck.
I really recommend giving the 3-4 noxious revival package a try for just this reason. It deals with all of the DS discard/removal, and if unnecessary for that purpose it helps your combo as well.
I really recommend giving the 3-4 noxious revival package a try for just this reason. It deals with all of the DS discard/removal, and if unnecessary for that purpose it helps your combo as well.
I'm on 2 NR main and 2 threats, with +1 NR in the board.
Recently I've started useing 4 discard inquistions/thoutsizes I m pretty happy with that, of course still runing mentors which are second best card I think.
They do a lot of work don't they? I had solid results with them in Vancouver. I tried squeezing in 5 recently, but at 5 protection slots the engine lost a lot of reliability.
I like Faith's Shield, it can protect you from other Grapeshot decks and / or protect your Engine
Shield isn't great in this deck or this metagame. It doesn't protect our engines from either countermagic or discard. Song does both. That's a huge problem because the biggest threat to our deck (DS strategies) all play 6-8 discard spells plus a fast clock. Sure, it can save you from Eidolon, but Song even counter Eidolon without losing you percentage points against discard strategies.
I like Faith's Shield, it can protect you from other Grapeshot decks and / or protect your Engine
as long as you don't bring it in against burn's eidolon and they have leyline of punishment in play
Almost no competitive Burn lists play Leyline. Maybe this is a local metagame thing for you, but on MTGO or at most larger events, they basically don't exist.
Recently I've started useing 4 discard inquistions/thoutsizes I m pretty happy with that, of course still runing mentors which are second best card I think.
They do a lot of work don't they? I had solid results with them in Vancouver. I tried squeezing in 5 recently, but at 5 protection slots the engine lost a lot of reliability.
Yeah, 5 protection spells is too many. You lose too much consistency early on and produce too many dead draws. I do like the idea of discard as a SB plan in certain matchups, but I doubt I'd go 5+ in the 60 at any time. Too much combo dilution.
I like Faith's Shield, it can protect you from other Grapeshot decks and / or protect your Engine
Shield isn't great in this deck or this metagame. It doesn't protect our engines from either countermagic or discard. Song does both. That's a huge problem because the biggest threat to our deck (DS strategies) all play 6-8 discard spells plus a fast clock. Sure, it can save you from Eidolon, but Song even counter Eidolon without losing you percentage points against discard strategies.
I like Faith's Shield, it can protect you from other Grapeshot decks and / or protect your Engine
as long as you don't bring it in against burn's eidolon and they have leyline of punishment in play
Almost no competitive Burn lists play Leyline. Maybe this is a local metagame thing for you, but on MTGO or at most larger events, they basically don't exist.
Recently I've started useing 4 discard inquistions/thoutsizes I m pretty happy with that, of course still runing mentors which are second best card I think.
They do a lot of work don't they? I had solid results with them in Vancouver. I tried squeezing in 5 recently, but at 5 protection slots the engine lost a lot of reliability.
Yeah, 5 protection spells is too many. You lose too much consistency early on and produce too many dead draws. I do like the idea of discard as a SB plan in certain matchups, but I doubt I'd go 5+ in the 60 at any time. Too much combo dilution.
The only way that I see being able to jump to 5 would be if pre-ordain came back. I ran 5 prot with it and it had better consistency than the lists with 3-4 prot. Unless that happens finding the best balance of protection that still enables the combo to a degree will probably do us the most good, ei: Noxious/Echoing Truth.
Concerning the discard I loved not only the disruption, but how the discard influenced my opponents play, but having 4 just isn't consistent enough.
I like Faith's Shield, it can protect you from other Grapeshot decks and / or protect your Engine
Shield isn't great in this deck or this metagame. It doesn't protect our engines from either countermagic or discard. Song does both. That's a huge problem because the biggest threat to our deck (DS strategies) all play 6-8 discard spells plus a fast clock. Sure, it can save you from Eidolon, but Song even counter Eidolon without losing you percentage points against discard strategies.
I like Faith's Shield, it can protect you from other Grapeshot decks and / or protect your Engine
as long as you don't bring it in against burn's eidolon and they have leyline of punishment in play
Almost no competitive Burn lists play Leyline. Maybe this is a local metagame thing for you, but on MTGO or at most larger events, they basically don't exist.
It showed up in a couple lists at states, mainly mono red, but I agree that it's not necessarily a constant threat, but something to be aware of.
Hello, I was wondering what anyone thoughts were on including Hurkyll's Recall as a 1 or 2 of main deck. It seems it would help with consistency. The list I currently run is https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/592512#online
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I got 3 Marsh Flats together to give black a go, but I'm missing control and feeling like a change of pace. I think I'm going to play Lantern or Jeskai Flash for a bit.
MODERN
GBCombo ElvesBG
UExtra TurnsU
UWCheeriosWU
EDH
RGURiku of Two ReflectionsRGU (Combo / Creature Toolbox)
BWKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWB (Control / Aggro)
GWSelvala, Explorer ReturnedWG (Goodstuff)
RUWNarset, Enlightened MasterWUR (Superfriends)
Forgetender is great, I have 2 in the side. I play black, so the MD Kingpin is also fantastic vs burn. Against the rest of the heavily interactive decks you have a couple of options. Usually against such decks you are on the play G2, and the best side against them so far has been Judge's Familiar in my testing. If it can carry you to G3 you side that out for more reactive protection like additional Noxious Revival's, as the familiar doesn't deal with the big obstacle of T1 discard very well if you are on the draw.
If the metagame keeps shifting away from Jund Shadow to Grixis Shadow, I'm much more inclined to try the black splash for Herald and drop Foundry entirely. I'm sure four colors isn't going to work, but UWB might. Although Herald really falls flat against Jund Shadow for a variety of reasons (e.g. Goyfs are too big, Ghor Clan + Battle Rage tramples over it, Lily sacs it, etc.), it lines up much better against Grixis. Herald beats up Tasigur, Angler, Delver, Snapcaster, and whatever other threats they are using.
No idea what this manabase would look like, because BB is still a major problem with Herald. Assuming I stick with 3 SV, I can envision really awkward scenarios where SV on T1 can't develop into either Herald or Paladin on T2. Maybe something like this:
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
(+1 Concealed Courtyard)
At 15 lands, this manabase only has three lands (Shrine, Heath, Plains) that can't cast T1 SV or Song. It has zero combinations of two lands that can't develop into T2 Paladin though, and zero combinations of two lands that can't activate Heath. Unfortunately, it has numerous land pairings that can't lead to a T2 Herald (Fountain + Coast, two Coast, Plains + Fountain). It also has 9 fetches and only 6 mana-producing lands, which isn't my favorite for longer games. At 16 lands with Courtyard, you reduce the number of T2-T3 lines that don't produce Herald, but you also make T1 SV/Song worse.
I was thinking about picking up some leylines, the list I'm basing mine off of has 4 leylines SB, but also doesn't run SSG. Is that recommended? I don't know if anyone at locals is using Death Shadow or not. I'll have to go scout it out a little more. Though, after I graduate, I'll be moving to one of the best stores in the state, so... Woo! There'll almost certainly be Death Shadow and Jund there.
MODERN
GBCombo ElvesBG
UExtra TurnsU
UWCheeriosWU
EDH
RGURiku of Two ReflectionsRGU (Combo / Creature Toolbox)
BWKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWB (Control / Aggro)
GWSelvala, Explorer ReturnedWG (Goodstuff)
RUWNarset, Enlightened MasterWUR (Superfriends)
Leylines were spotty before DS decks. Against traditional Jund and Abzan, you didn't have to worry about fast clocks so you could reasonably keep 7 card hands with Leyline and no engine (as long as they had SV or Retract/Opal) and still be reasonably confident you'd stay alive long enough to draw action. You still ran into issues with dead Leyline draws later in the game or during a combo sequence, but at least you were in good shape if you opened with Leyline. Because when Leyline is active, Abzan/Jund have far more dead draws and might be stuck on slower hands with discard/Lily that can't close games quickly. Sometimes opponents keep an opener with TS/IoK/Lily plus lands and something like Ooze, in which case Leyline virtually mulls them to 4.
DS decks change this, especially DS Jund. Even if you turn off their discard, you still lose to fast clocks that kill you by T4. This is anywhere from 1-3 turns faster than you would see in the traditional BGx matchup. That means Leyline is only good in the roughly 15% of games where you have engine + Leyline + land in your opener, and very bad in the other 85% of games. It's even worse topdecked, because any given draw matters much more against a faster deck.
Even against traditional BGx, I was off Leyline and on Outcome. Outcome dodged IoK, recovered from discard if topdecked, and was the only thing that could save you from an active Lily if you were handlocked. Outcome is too slow for DS decks, but the concept lives on: you need something that both protects you from early discard and doesn't create dead draws later. Threats fit this bill much more than Leylines.
I really recommend giving the 3-4 noxious revival package a try for just this reason. It deals with all of the DS discard/removal, and if unnecessary for that purpose it helps your combo as well.
I'm on 2 NR main and 2 threats, with +1 NR in the board.
They do a lot of work don't they? I had solid results with them in Vancouver. I tried squeezing in 5 recently, but at 5 protection slots the engine lost a lot of reliability.
Shield isn't great in this deck or this metagame. It doesn't protect our engines from either countermagic or discard. Song does both. That's a huge problem because the biggest threat to our deck (DS strategies) all play 6-8 discard spells plus a fast clock. Sure, it can save you from Eidolon, but Song even counter Eidolon without losing you percentage points against discard strategies.
Almost no competitive Burn lists play Leyline. Maybe this is a local metagame thing for you, but on MTGO or at most larger events, they basically don't exist.
Yeah, 5 protection spells is too many. You lose too much consistency early on and produce too many dead draws. I do like the idea of discard as a SB plan in certain matchups, but I doubt I'd go 5+ in the 60 at any time. Too much combo dilution.
The only way that I see being able to jump to 5 would be if pre-ordain came back. I ran 5 prot with it and it had better consistency than the lists with 3-4 prot. Unless that happens finding the best balance of protection that still enables the combo to a degree will probably do us the most good, ei: Noxious/Echoing Truth.
Concerning the discard I loved not only the disruption, but how the discard influenced my opponents play, but having 4 just isn't consistent enough.