I think some of the best resiliency can be gathered from Noxious Revival. I am trying a build with 4 at the moment and it is looking really promising. It has an over 50% win rate on T3 so far, and only around a 5% mull to death rate, which is better than Ad naseum's fizzle rate. The great thing is that not only does it rescue our engines from the yard after removal\discard, but it helps the combo by grabbing the retracts or lands as well if they have light interaction. I will give an update after I hit 200 games, but I think this will give the main board some serious love against our tougher match-ups.
I saw some lists running black and am curious if anyone has tried herald of anguish? The fact that only path and terminate really hit it seems useful as well as a great back up plan for beat down.
I saw some lists running black and am curious if anyone has tried herald of anguish? The fact that only path and terminate really hit it seems useful as well as a great back up plan for beat down.
Seems really clunky. BB would be hard to come by even in the splashed builds, and even then we need either five equipment in play or four equipment and three mana. All that for a clock that still dies to Lily, Path, and Terminate and is, at best, a four turn clock on its own. At least clocks like Mentor threaten to end the game next turn if unanswered. I'm not even sure about the matchup where Herald shines. It's too slow against fast decks like Burn and Affinity and too low impact against slower midrange like DS Jund and Bant Eldrazi. Where do you envision the card succeeding?
I saw some lists running black and am curious if anyone has tried herald of anguish? The fact that only path and terminate really hit it seems useful as well as a great back up plan for beat down.
Seems really clunky. BB would be hard to come by even in the splashed builds, and even then we need either five equipment in play or four equipment and three mana. All that for a clock that still dies to Lily, Path, and Terminate and is, at best, a four turn clock on its own. At least clocks like Mentor threaten to end the game next turn if unanswered. I'm not even sure about the matchup where Herald shines. It's too slow against fast decks like Burn and Affinity and too low impact against slower midrange like DS Jund and Bant Eldrazi. Where do you envision the card succeeding?
Mentor dies to literally everything, the only real kill spell you mention is path, terminate is on the decline, and Lili is seeing even less play now that Ds jund has taken the place of old jund. Artifacts aren't the hard part to hit and a mana base could be built to hit bb if needed. The point is he is a beater that gets around almost all of the sb hate/kill spells in the meta as well as takes a card from the opponent if they can't answer it.
Mentor dies to literally everything, the only real kill spell you mention is path, terminate is on the decline, and Lili is seeing even less play now that Ds jund has taken the place of old jund. Artifacts aren't the hard part to hit and a mana base could be built to hit bb if needed. The point is he is a beater that gets around almost all of the sb hate/kill spells in the meta as well as takes a card from the opponent if they can't answer it.
Dying to removal isn't the issue. Remember the key plus of Mentor; it tends to win the game in 1-2 turns if not answered. The issue is that Herald dies to a bunch of removal AND doesn't win the game for at least four turns. Also, if Herald dies, all your artifacts are probably in play so you can't even draw an engine as an out. You would need Retract plus the engine. That's a lot of downside.
I'm not saying you shouldn't test it. More testing is always welcome! I'm just saying it doesn't pass my "taste test" for what is appropriate in this kind of deck and what doesn't really fit.
Mentor dies to literally everything, the only real kill spell you mention is path, terminate is on the decline, and Lili is seeing even less play now that Ds jund has taken the place of old jund. Artifacts aren't the hard part to hit and a mana base could be built to hit bb if needed. The point is he is a beater that gets around almost all of the sb hate/kill spells in the meta as well as takes a card from the opponent if they can't answer it.
Dying to removal isn't the issue. Remember the key plus of Mentor; it tends to win the game in 1-2 turns if not answered. The issue is that Herald dies to a bunch of removal AND doesn't win the game for at least four turns. Also, if Herald dies, all your artifacts are probably in play so you can't even draw an engine as an out. You would need Retract plus the engine. That's a lot of downside.
I'm not saying you shouldn't test it. More testing is always welcome! I'm just saying it doesn't pass my "taste test" for what is appropriate in this kind of deck and what doesn't really fit.
The issue isn't that it dies to removal it's that it dies to removal lol. Nice
If the issue is it's a slower clock I'd reply only sometimes. In the cases where the opponent has inquisition, bolt, push, or tarfire it's a faster clock because, well it's alive. Perhaps t2 you try to go off cast a 0 and your guy gets bolted or it doesn't but you just fizzle. In that senerio you might be better without mentor. It dodges a lot of issues and can be a cheap threat (with actual abilities) much like the idea of a delve fatty.
Mentor dies to literally everything, the only real kill spell you mention is path, terminate is on the decline, and Lili is seeing even less play now that Ds jund has taken the place of old jund. Artifacts aren't the hard part to hit and a mana base could be built to hit bb if needed. The point is he is a beater that gets around almost all of the sb hate/kill spells in the meta as well as takes a card from the opponent if they can't answer it.
Dying to removal isn't the issue. Remember the key plus of Mentor; it tends to win the game in 1-2 turns if not answered. The issue is that Herald dies to a bunch of removal AND doesn't win the game for at least four turns. Also, if Herald dies, all your artifacts are probably in play so you can't even draw an engine as an out. You would need Retract plus the engine. That's a lot of downside.
I'm not saying you shouldn't test it. More testing is always welcome! I'm just saying it doesn't pass my "taste test" for what is appropriate in this kind of deck and what doesn't really fit.
The issue isn't that it dies to removal it's that it dies to removal lol. Nice
If the issue is it's a slower clock I'd reply only sometimes. In the cases where the opponent has inquisition, bolt, push, or tarfire it's a faster clock because, well it's alive. Perhaps t2 you try to go off cast a 0 and your guy gets bolted or it doesn't but you just fizzle. In that senerio you might be better without mentor. It dodges a lot of issues and can be a cheap threat (with actual abilities) much like the idea of a delve fatty.
If you want to go down that route, then you might as well play Broodstar
The issue isn't that it dies to removal it's that it dies to removal lol. Nice
I don't know why you're being so aggressive and sarcastic about this. I stated it very clearly but I'll try it again:
Mentor dies to all removal BUT ALSO wins the game in 1-2 turns. This fast clock outweighs Mentor's fragility to removal.
Herald dies to less removal BUT ALSO doesn't win the game for 4 turns. This slow clock does not outweigh Herald's resilience to removal.
I'll also add that double black is pretty painful on the manabase. Mentor is on-color.
If the issue is it's a slower clock I'd reply only sometimes. In the cases where the opponent has inquisition, bolt, push, or tarfire it's a faster clock because, well it's alive. Perhaps t2 you try to go off cast a 0 and your guy gets bolted or it doesn't but you just fizzle. In that senerio you might be better without mentor. It dodges a lot of issues and can be a cheap threat (with actual abilities) much like the idea of a delve fatty.
Again, you should totally test it and let us know how it goes. I will say that if you do test it, you need more than the standard 19-20 equipment to support the 5 improvise cost, so I'd look at the lists that include higher artifact counts as a starting point.
I will also point out that they have to have double removal to prevent you from having at least one Monk token. One Monk isn't a great clock, because it only gets in for the massive prowess swing once (or several smaller swings if you play equipments slowly, but the damage is the same), but it is still a threat and a topdecked Retract or Recall is potentially lethal.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I will also point out that they have to have double removal to prevent you from having at least one Monk token. One Monk isn't a great clock, because it only gets in for the massive prowess swing once (or several smaller swings if you play equipments slowly, but the damage is the same), but it is still a threat and a topdecked Retract or Recall is potentially lethal.
One creature gets chumped all day. I'm not saying mento is bad I'm trying to think outside the box. People have been trying mentor forever and it just hasn't been good enough to push the deck through. I highly doubt any secondary plan will be but who knows.
I've finally made an account after following this and the last spoiled Cheerios thread for about 9 months. Is Salvage Titan a legitimate top deck or even turn 1 against DS Jund? It dodges fatal push and kills most anything they can play, plus uses all the 0s we have laying around when we can't combo.
People have been trying mentor forever and it just hasn't been good enough to push the deck through.
Wat
The first ever top 8 had md Mentor
1 of the 2 1st places in States this year had md Mentor
Dannewitz ran sb Mentors
Taufik ran sb Mentors
I'm being completely honest when I say that I'm no longer sure if this isn't a weak attempt at trolling.
Swan assault won a states so states is clearly a bad way to judge. This deck hasn't won anything decent so... There is a reason the deck is still in the development thread and if you think it's as best as it gets then there's no hope. I play the deck I'm not trolling I'm just trying to discuss. There are many people that don't run mentor they aren't all just wrong many of them just came to the conclusion it wasn't good enough. So I was just throwing an idea out there. Maybe you're a little to attached to the way you build your deck. Salvage titan is another cool idea that should be tested as mentioned (although I prefer evasion of some sort). Just because I don't think mentor is as great as you doesn't mean I'm trolling.
I don't actually run Mentor in my deck. I'm considering sideboarding it for SA, but I've only used it once.
Other people don't run Mentor as well. Probably for similar reasons as me; they just don't prefer it, or it doesn't fit as well with their specific build, or their meta is different.
I don't think you're trolling because you have a different opinion on Mentor. I think you're trolling because you made a blatantly false claim about results from lists that use Mentor. I think you're trolling because you're actively attacking a tested and proven card choice for no apparent reason while defending your card choice as if we were all trying to set every physical copy of it on fire. You're saying things like
Maybe you're a little to attached to the way you build your deck.
when all I'm doing is pointing out objectively true things about one card that I don't even personally use.
I'm as defensive and argumentative as the next guy (actually probably moreso, but like, the guy after that is about even with me), but you're like way out in left field. You're arguing against things nobody has even said, and sometimes you border on incoherency. We appreciate your ideas. Demon Guy is a very interesting brainstorm very much like Barricade Breaker and Salvage Titan (which I played for ages when I first made the deck). But if you're going to discuss your ideas, you have to recognize that part of that discussion is that no idea is perfect, and we are going to have to weigh your card against other cards that could take the same slot. Compared to Mentor as a potential failsafe, Demon Guy dodges a larger variety of removal and has unique utilities, but is difficult to cast and a very slow clock. Mentor can win in one turn without even comboing off. Demon Guy takes 4 turns. Mentor has been proven with results; two States Top 8s (one before Sram was printed) and a sideboard card in Taufik's undefeated Day 1 run.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I don't actually run Mentor in my deck. I'm considering sideboarding it for SA, but I've only used it once.
Other people don't run Mentor as well. Probably for similar reasons as me; they just don't prefer it, or it doesn't fit as well with their specific build, or their meta is different.
I don't think you're trolling because you have a different opinion on Mentor. I think you're trolling because you made a blatantly false claim about results from lists that use Mentor. I think you're trolling because you're actively attacking a tested and proven card choice for no apparent reason while defending your card choice as if we were all trying to set every physical copy of it on fire. You're saying things like
Maybe you're a little to attached to the way you build your deck.
when all I'm doing is pointing out objectively true things about one card that I don't even personally use.
I'm as defensive and argumentative as the next guy (actually probably moreso, but like, the guy after that is about even with me), but you're like way out in left field. You're arguing against things nobody has even said, and sometimes you border on incoherency. We appreciate your ideas. Demon Guy is a very interesting brainstorm very much like Barricade Breaker and Salvage Titan (which I played for ages when I first made the deck). But if you're going to discuss your ideas, you have to recognize that part of that discussion is that no idea is perfect, and we are going to have to weigh your card against other cards that could take the same slot. Compared to Mentor as a potential failsafe, Demon Guy dodges a larger variety of removal and has unique utilities, but is difficult to cast and a very slow clock. Mentor can win in one turn without even comboing off. Demon Guy takes 4 turns. Mentor has been proven with results; two States Top 8s (one before Sram was printed) and a sideboard card in Taufik's undefeated Day 1 run.
I wasn't getting defensive of the card I suggested at all, perhaps you are just taking it that way. Mentor is "proven" in an unproven deck is my point. This deck in any variant hasn't put up big/consistent results and I'm saying mentor hasn't allowed it to get over the hump either (or maybe you have a different idea of competition/competitive environment). As I stated even swan assault won a states so it isn't saying much to have won 2 with cheeri0's when just the base build can be crazy powerful. People win games currently on puresteel beat down plans (not ideal but hey sometimes you do what you have to do). There are plenty of areas where mentor just isn't good and to say that it just wins the game next turn is wrong(sometimes it dies but sometimes it has the exact same problem as the rest of your combo enablers). The way you think I'm defensive is exactly how I feel about people and mentor.
@ktrojan For the mana base I assume you're thinking 2 godless shrine in place of seachrome coast ? This doesn't seem too much of a stretch. I balked at the idea thinking about an opener that contained serum visions , but it's like an opener with just a basic land. Slightly higher rate of sad face, but potentially negligible.
What do you see the deck looking like post board when you bring herald of anguish in?
@ktrojan For the mana base I assume you're thinking 2 godless shrine in place of seachrome coast ? This doesn't seem too much of a stretch. I balked at the idea thinking about an opener that contained serum visions , but it's like an opener with just a basic land. Slightly higher rate of sad face, but potentially negligible.
What do you see the deck looking like post board when you bring herald of anguish in?
Currently this is my mana base. I test a bit different though. I like to know worst case senerio so I'm testing 3 main. I'm not saying it's right I'm saying in testing I want to see the card I'm questioning in a lot of senerios of the game. I've only played 3 matches so far and so very limited experience I've noticed the following.
Feels better to try t1 combo when you have the possibility of t2 fatty.
It's more like a 3 turn beat down after opponents fetch/shock and I have a bone saw.
Great blocker (even better when equipped with vigy and a bigger butt (looking at you ds))
Black allows me to move to fatal push instead of path.
Skin may need a spot in the list especially if I go to kingpin main like some other builds earlier mentioned.
Ability to kill creatures isn't irrelevant as it came up vs a Thalia in the first match I played.
Idk I'm still very early and am not saying it's right just telling observations.
For the record this is my current deck list in a heavy meta of burn and sun and moon. I push hard to go off turn 2 so the extra grapeshot helps me not need to be able to draw my deck.
I was running 4 bastion inventor as it blanks removal and once he is equipped about the only thing that stops the beatdown is liliana of the veil, however, as counterspells are beginning to be a concern in a delve/death shadow counter/discard/removal package I think salvage titan addresses that. I'd be happy be happy to hear thoughts on weaknesses I may run in to.
@ktrojan Are you running discard rather than serum visions? I know someone had moved in that direction previously when they brought black in; I lean heavy on serum visions when I fizzle. The creature removal does seem like a nice perk, Thalia and eidolon, although it seems like potentially a major speed loss with the introduction (moving towards turn 5, but that happens with a dedicated deck when it fizzles too so maybe not).
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Seems really clunky. BB would be hard to come by even in the splashed builds, and even then we need either five equipment in play or four equipment and three mana. All that for a clock that still dies to Lily, Path, and Terminate and is, at best, a four turn clock on its own. At least clocks like Mentor threaten to end the game next turn if unanswered. I'm not even sure about the matchup where Herald shines. It's too slow against fast decks like Burn and Affinity and too low impact against slower midrange like DS Jund and Bant Eldrazi. Where do you envision the card succeeding?
Mentor dies to literally everything, the only real kill spell you mention is path, terminate is on the decline, and Lili is seeing even less play now that Ds jund has taken the place of old jund. Artifacts aren't the hard part to hit and a mana base could be built to hit bb if needed. The point is he is a beater that gets around almost all of the sb hate/kill spells in the meta as well as takes a card from the opponent if they can't answer it.
Dying to removal isn't the issue. Remember the key plus of Mentor; it tends to win the game in 1-2 turns if not answered. The issue is that Herald dies to a bunch of removal AND doesn't win the game for at least four turns. Also, if Herald dies, all your artifacts are probably in play so you can't even draw an engine as an out. You would need Retract plus the engine. That's a lot of downside.
I'm not saying you shouldn't test it. More testing is always welcome! I'm just saying it doesn't pass my "taste test" for what is appropriate in this kind of deck and what doesn't really fit.
The issue isn't that it dies to removal it's that it dies to removal lol. Nice
If the issue is it's a slower clock I'd reply only sometimes. In the cases where the opponent has inquisition, bolt, push, or tarfire it's a faster clock because, well it's alive. Perhaps t2 you try to go off cast a 0 and your guy gets bolted or it doesn't but you just fizzle. In that senerio you might be better without mentor. It dodges a lot of issues and can be a cheap threat (with actual abilities) much like the idea of a delve fatty.
If you want to go down that route, then you might as well play Broodstar
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I don't know why you're being so aggressive and sarcastic about this. I stated it very clearly but I'll try it again:
Mentor dies to all removal BUT ALSO wins the game in 1-2 turns. This fast clock outweighs Mentor's fragility to removal.
Herald dies to less removal BUT ALSO doesn't win the game for 4 turns. This slow clock does not outweigh Herald's resilience to removal.
I'll also add that double black is pretty painful on the manabase. Mentor is on-color.
Again, you should totally test it and let us know how it goes. I will say that if you do test it, you need more than the standard 19-20 equipment to support the 5 improvise cost, so I'd look at the lists that include higher artifact counts as a starting point.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
One creature gets chumped all day. I'm not saying mento is bad I'm trying to think outside the box. People have been trying mentor forever and it just hasn't been good enough to push the deck through. I highly doubt any secondary plan will be but who knows.
Wat
The first ever top 8 had md Mentor
1 of the 2 1st places in States this year had md Mentor
Dannewitz ran sb Mentors
Taufik ran sb Mentors
I'm being completely honest when I say that I'm no longer sure if this isn't a weak attempt at trolling.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Swan assault won a states so states is clearly a bad way to judge. This deck hasn't won anything decent so... There is a reason the deck is still in the development thread and if you think it's as best as it gets then there's no hope. I play the deck I'm not trolling I'm just trying to discuss. There are many people that don't run mentor they aren't all just wrong many of them just came to the conclusion it wasn't good enough. So I was just throwing an idea out there. Maybe you're a little to attached to the way you build your deck. Salvage titan is another cool idea that should be tested as mentioned (although I prefer evasion of some sort). Just because I don't think mentor is as great as you doesn't mean I'm trolling.
Other people don't run Mentor as well. Probably for similar reasons as me; they just don't prefer it, or it doesn't fit as well with their specific build, or their meta is different.
I don't think you're trolling because you have a different opinion on Mentor. I think you're trolling because you made a blatantly false claim about results from lists that use Mentor. I think you're trolling because you're actively attacking a tested and proven card choice for no apparent reason while defending your card choice as if we were all trying to set every physical copy of it on fire. You're saying things like when all I'm doing is pointing out objectively true things about one card that I don't even personally use.
I'm as defensive and argumentative as the next guy (actually probably moreso, but like, the guy after that is about even with me), but you're like way out in left field. You're arguing against things nobody has even said, and sometimes you border on incoherency. We appreciate your ideas. Demon Guy is a very interesting brainstorm very much like Barricade Breaker and Salvage Titan (which I played for ages when I first made the deck). But if you're going to discuss your ideas, you have to recognize that part of that discussion is that no idea is perfect, and we are going to have to weigh your card against other cards that could take the same slot. Compared to Mentor as a potential failsafe, Demon Guy dodges a larger variety of removal and has unique utilities, but is difficult to cast and a very slow clock. Mentor can win in one turn without even comboing off. Demon Guy takes 4 turns. Mentor has been proven with results; two States Top 8s (one before Sram was printed) and a sideboard card in Taufik's undefeated Day 1 run.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I wasn't getting defensive of the card I suggested at all, perhaps you are just taking it that way. Mentor is "proven" in an unproven deck is my point. This deck in any variant hasn't put up big/consistent results and I'm saying mentor hasn't allowed it to get over the hump either (or maybe you have a different idea of competition/competitive environment). As I stated even swan assault won a states so it isn't saying much to have won 2 with cheeri0's when just the base build can be crazy powerful. People win games currently on puresteel beat down plans (not ideal but hey sometimes you do what you have to do). There are plenty of areas where mentor just isn't good and to say that it just wins the game next turn is wrong(sometimes it dies but sometimes it has the exact same problem as the rest of your combo enablers). The way you think I'm defensive is exactly how I feel about people and mentor.
What do you see the deck looking like post board when you bring herald of anguish in?
3 Flooded Strand
2 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
Currently this is my mana base. I test a bit different though. I like to know worst case senerio so I'm testing 3 main. I'm not saying it's right I'm saying in testing I want to see the card I'm questioning in a lot of senerios of the game. I've only played 3 matches so far and so very limited experience I've noticed the following.
Feels better to try t1 combo when you have the possibility of t2 fatty.
It's more like a 3 turn beat down after opponents fetch/shock and I have a bone saw.
Great blocker (even better when equipped with vigy and a bigger butt (looking at you ds))
Black allows me to move to fatal push instead of path.
Skin may need a spot in the list especially if I go to kingpin main like some other builds earlier mentioned.
Ability to kill creatures isn't irrelevant as it came up vs a Thalia in the first match I played.
Idk I'm still very early and am not saying it's right just telling observations.
3 flooded strand
1 sacred foundry
2 hallowed fountain
5 plains
4 puresteel paladin
4 sram, senior edificer
4 retract
1 hurkyle's recall
1 echoing truth
2 grapeshot
2 noxious revival
4 serum visions
4 bone saw
4 spidersilk net
4 accorder's shield
4 cathar's shield
4 paradise mantle
4 burrenton forge tender
3 salvage titan
1 bastion inventor
1 monestary mentor
2 silence
1 echoing truth
1 elixer of Immortality
1 island
I was running 4 bastion inventor as it blanks removal and once he is equipped about the only thing that stops the beatdown is liliana of the veil, however, as counterspells are beginning to be a concern in a delve/death shadow counter/discard/removal package I think salvage titan addresses that. I'd be happy be happy to hear thoughts on weaknesses I may run in to.