The "fuss," as you put it, is that there some hardliners who believe Nahiri is the only way to do Jeskai in a competitive field. I am not one of them. I doubt, however, that three weeks of match results in a very limited field is going to win hearts and minds.
What do you see as a good alternative then? The problem I always have with other Jeskai lists is that their wincons are generally slower, or more fragile, or do not solve the issues Nahiri has:
-flash variants are slower and more fragile, and although they have the upsides of not having to tap out your clock is still too slow for tron and combo
-other walkers generally seen in a more controlling build only worsen the problems Nahiri has
-Kiki combo is more fragile both due to removal and having to draw two pieces, requires much more space in the deck, and is not that much faster than Nahiri
-Geist midrange decks I do like a lot, but they trade weaknesses that Nahiri has off with their own (and geist midrange already has a very good and acrive primer anyways)
I honestly try different jeskai lists all the time but I never report on them because they are generally underwhelming. Even though the deck has clear issues, I still think Nahiri is the best wincon for modern jeskai control right now because it has such a fast clock once board control is established. On top of that, one of the major issues many pros have repeated about modern control in general is "drawing the wrong half of your deck". Nahiri's +2 eases that problem significantly and it's generally the thing I miss the most when trying other wincons.
I had a long diatribe typed up, but I'm tired of this. I already said what I've been playing lately on the last page. If Nahiri works for you, run with it. /peaceout
Well then don't make accusations if you're not willing to back them up, it's basically flaming.
It's not an accusation. I've been over this many times. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. I've actually had chats with pros concerning Jeskai Nahiri. What have you done?
EDIT: On second thought, if it's flaming, just go get a mod.
As for repeating yourself, you do repeat that Nahiri is not the only option but without actually proposing that option. Previous page you talk about a flash build, which I adressed (slower, more fragile and does not fix Nahiri's issues) or a Geist build which already has a perfectly fucntional primer.
The "fuss," as you put it, is that there some hardliners who believe Nahiri is the only way to do Jeskai in a competitive field. I am not one of them. I doubt, however, that three weeks of match results in a very limited field is going to win hearts and minds.
That's exactly my point though. I think it's silly that people are so fixated on the 2-3 different builds and are arguing over the minute details. When in reality, none of the builds have any serious leg up over each other. (Not talking about you specifically, just saying the trend of this thread)
I have no intentions of winning hearts and minds with FNM results. Hence why I typed "data" in quotes. I just posted it for the hell of it.
The "fuss," as you put it, is that there some hardliners who believe Nahiri is the only way to do Jeskai in a competitive field. I am not one of them. I doubt, however, that three weeks of match results in a very limited field is going to win hearts and minds.
What do you see as a good alternative then? The problem I always have with other Jeskai lists is that their wincons are generally slower, or more fragile, or do not solve the issues Nahiri has:
-flash variants are slower and more fragile, and although they have the upsides of not having to tap out your clock is still too slow for tron and combo
-other walkers generally seen in a more controlling build only worsen the problems Nahiri has
-Kiki combo is more fragile both due to removal and having to draw two pieces, requires much more space in the deck, and is not that much faster than Nahiri
-Geist midrange decks I do like a lot, but they trade weaknesses that Nahiri has off with their own (and geist midrange already has a very good and acrive primer anyways)
I honestly try different jeskai lists all the time but I never report on them because they are generally underwhelming. Even though the deck has clear issues, I still think Nahiri is the best wincon for modern jeskai control right now because it has such a fast clock once board control is established. On top of that, one of the major issues many pros have repeated about modern control in general is "drawing the wrong half of your deck". Nahiri's +2 eases that problem significantly and it's generally the thing I miss the most when trying other wincons.
More or less agreed here, as far as different builds are concerned. You just trade one set of problems for another. Some meta might favor one over the other slightly, but that's as far as it goes.
We can try the Saheeli Rai/Cat blink builds. That's an area that hasn't been discussed all that much, as far as I can tell.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
As for repeating yourself, you do repeat that Nahiri is not the only option but without actually proposing that option. Previous page you talk about a flash build, which I adressed (slower, more fragile and does not fix Nahiri's issues) or a Geist build which already has a perfectly fucntional primer.
Like I said, if you don't like my answer, then do your thing, and according to you, I must've proposed something for you to have addressed it.
And congrats to you. You wrote the primer! That completely sidesteps the actual issue. Nahiri Jeskai has major problems. Yes, I still play it on occassion. Yes, I can still win with the deck. If that's where your evaluation stops, then good luck to you. I don't think it's that simple. Because the difference between a random local tournament and a Grand Prix (or SCG Modern Open) is huge. I regularly get to play against Infect (post-ban), Dredge (post-ban), Tron, a couple Grixis Delver/Control decks (they change between the two frequently) and Burn. Depending on who shows up, I can sometimes expect Merfolk, various incarnations of Abzan, RG Breach variants and Ad Nauseam. The main decks I tend to see are generally so fast that whole idea of trying to fix the issue of drawing the wrong half of your deck with Nahiri is laughable. I would argue Ancestral Vision in conjunction with Nahiri might help you but that's still relatively slow. Drawing the wrong half of your deck just sucks but that's just variance.
As far as having addressed the Flash style, all you've done is give your commentary. If you believe Flash style is "slower and more fragile" than Nahiri, I will simply disagree. It has so many built 1-for-1 and 2-for-1's, that I'm not sure how you get to the point where the deck is fragile. Like against what? It has a better chance to close a game against all the decks (except Ad Nauseam) that also wreck Jeskai Nahiri. Not to mention, my Tron matches have so far been in my favor to the annoyance of the main Tron player in my area (there are three others though). I would love to hear more about how fragile it is, but I assume this isn't the subforum for that.
Also, I don't care to fix the issues with Nahiri because the tools don't exist to make the proper repairs. It seems the metagame online and on paper is hostile to durdley decks. It helps that it's a planeswalker, but that only goes so far. So unless you have built-in recursion or just efficient 1-for-1's mixed with 2-for-1's, there's not much else to do. Big mana decks get their mana fast and do huge things that you can't compete with. Tron doesn't care about Nahiri. Betweem Karn, Ugin and Oblivion Stone, they're usually more concerned with just drawing threats. EldraziTron cares even less. They just want their mana on time. Combo decks largely have to flame out on their own for Nahiri Jeskai to win. There are literally 0 tools to combat this type of stuff effectively unless you want to counter every spell they play since we're largely a reactive deck. This isn't even to mention that I believe Infect, historically a good match, has gotten worse with Blossoming Defense. I'm not sure how much any of you have seen of the new Death's Shadow Jund deck, but it's pretty good as well and harder to play around now that they're more of a grindy deck. I still think it's still a slightly positive match for Nahiri Jeskai, but it largely depends on their draw and who plays first. Proactive decks are where everyone is. There are just too many good (and efficient!) things to do proactively. Until the reactive tools get better, there's nothing much to do. Well, I suppose you could switch to Mardu Nahiri. Otherwise, you have to heavily "pre-board" your deck to an expected metagame. Hope you don't guess incorrectly! More importantly, this is the same with most Jeskai variants. So what makes Nahiri special? We basically don't have enough sideboard space to be a decent tournament deck with the tools present, or maybe it depends on what you would consider a success for a weekend out.
All that said, if you're so confident that Jeskai is great and Nahiri is the best thing to do in Jeskai colors, sleeve it up, give us a detailed report from whatever GP you plan on crushing and end your report with an "I told you so." I'll even mail you a cookie (win or lose!).
My beef lies where you blame the "nahiri hardliners". You're really tappingstonesing it up here acting like everyone else is wrong but you hold the secret. And then you even admit yourself that your flash build is just as flawed and that control isn't good right now, so what's even the point of that accusation?
My point about writing the primer is that I put work into the deck too and really don't care that you PM'd a pro once. You just as well have nothing to show for, so don't just assume you're speaking from higher experience. If you're willing and capable to discuss other ideas on an even level without throwing a hissyfit everyone is more than willing to.
Public Mod Note
(Lantern):
Warning for flaming ~Lantern
This is a bit much, really. I don't think anyone is disputing that Nahiri + Emrakul is a strong win condition in the right circumstances, and that the deck has a lot of potential. I think the questions are really just (1) is the 'stock' build (23 land, 3 AV, 0 Cryptic, etc.) the ideal way to build Jeskai Harbinger, and (2) more fundamentally, is Nahiri + Emrakul the best way to build Jeskai for the current meta (and if not, what is)? I imagine many users are a bit discouraged to see a general lack of Jeskai (Harbinger or otherwise) doing well at large tournaments, and/or a lack of consensus on how to approach the archetype, since it either points to flaws with the deck (at least in the current meta), or just a lack of competitiveness with any one build (e.g., if version X of Jeskai is the best build, why play version Y? We don't see two distinct takes on Grixis Control, and very little variation in Grixis Delver, for instance). But there's no need to take it out on each other.
I still think Nahiri is the best jeskai control wincon, as she is both strong in grindy and aggro matchups. Compared to that, flash based decks are about as good against aggro but worse in grindy matchups, and the reverse goes for the more control-based planeswalker builds. Combo builds are poor matchups for all versions as the cards we need are simply not modern legal. Because of that, I think the most managable way to hit a broad format is to have Nahiri supported by wincons specifically for the combo matchups
A few days ago we talked a lot about Cryptic Command; I've been trying that and I'm not a fan. It improves matchups that are already good and does not help that much in the poor matchups. I'm going to remove them and actually play one extra colorless land as ghost quarter/tec edge are very good against all these land-based strategies. I did like mainboard Negate, and cmc2 countermagic in general, so I'll be upping my cmc2 counter-count (it's just a huge bummer counterspell isn't modern legal).
My beef lies where you blame the "nahiri hardliners". You're really tappingstonesing it up here acting like everyone else is wrong but you hold the secret. And then you even admit yourself that your flash build is just as flawed and that control isn't good right now, so what's even the point of that accusation?
My point about writing the primer is that I put work into the deck too and really don't care that you PM'd a pro once. You just as well have nothing to show for, so don't just assume you're speaking from higher experience. If you're willing and capable to discuss other ideas on an even level without throwing a hissyfit everyone is more than willing to.
Either you can't comprehend what I wrote or you've warped some meanings. You have yet to attack anything relevant to the matter of Nahiri's weaknesses. I'm actually pointing out things. Instead you want to attack me for what I still feel is a relevant comment. I couldn't give a **** how you feel. I'm here for one thing: finding the greatest and latest thing going on. If you feel the "Nahiri hardliners" comment is getting personal, you might need to check what's going on in the home front before coming at me with bull*****. The evidence is all around you if you're willing to take off your rose-colored glasses.
I'm pointing out that I'm actively talking with others who do this for a living, my play test group as well as some notable people who are just pretty damn good. That's on top of personal testing within my play group where we do keep some data. Do I feel like getting into the nitty-gritty with a bunch who can't seemingly get out their own way? Not really. If you want to ignore all that, fine. Just quit the whining ffs.
Gentlemen, can we please return to the topical discussion?
What precisely is it about combo decks that makes them tough to handle? (Infect is an obvious exception, of course, since it dies to removal.) Is it the fact that these decks attack from lots of different angles that our answers aren't versatile enough to answer? Are they just to fast or consistent, and overload our interaction?
EDIT: Also, here's an unorthodox idea. What about ceremonious rejection as an answer to tron? It also hits affinity, eldrazi, and a couple other decks.
Gentlemen, can we please return to the topical discussion?
What precisely is it about combo decks that makes them tough to handle? (Infect is an obvious exception, of course, since it dies to removal.) Is it the fact that these decks attack from lots of different angles that our answers aren't versatile enough to answer? Are they just to fast or consistent, and overload our interaction?
EDIT: Also, here's an unorthodox idea. What about ceremonious rejection as an answer to tron? It also hits affinity, eldrazi, and a couple other decks.
They are linear and don't interact with us at all. We're an interactive deck and usually win matchups focused on interacting. When a deck doesn't care about what we're doing we often have a tough time.
Jeskai kiki got first in a GP. In all seriousness, the downfall of jeskai in modern was closing off the old uwr thread for a thread that only allows nahiri talk. This thread was a mistake but everyone jumped on the hype train thinking this deck solved jeskai
Jeskai kiki got first in a GP. In all seriousness, the downfall of jeskai in modern was closing off the old uwr thread for a thread that only allows nahiri talk. This thread was a mistake but everyone jumped on the hype train thinking this deck solved jeskai
Jeskai kiki got first in a GP. In all seriousness, the downfall of jeskai in modern was closing off the old uwr thread for a thread that only allows nahiri talk. This thread was a mistake but everyone jumped on the hype train thinking this deck solved jeskai
The mods were the ones who insisted for this to be exclusively Nahiri to better organize results. We were not allowed to make this a general jeskai control thread without getting demoted to deck creation. Now we're in developing competitive anyways, I'd really rather just have this merged with the general control thread. Keeping the old jeskai control primer open also wasn't an option as it was horribly outdated and the person who wrote it didn't come to mtgs anymore.
Jeskai kiki got first in a GP. In all seriousness, the downfall of jeskai in modern was closing off the old uwr thread for a thread that only allows nahiri talk. This thread was a mistake but everyone jumped on the hype train thinking this deck solved jeskai
I'm definitely not trying to be pedantic, but the result was from an SCG Classic and not a GP. Certainly not trying to diminish the result, but the two aren't comparable. As for the two GPs that did take place over the weekend, there was only 1 blue deck in either top 16 and it was Merfolk.
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What do you see as a good alternative then? The problem I always have with other Jeskai lists is that their wincons are generally slower, or more fragile, or do not solve the issues Nahiri has:
-flash variants are slower and more fragile, and although they have the upsides of not having to tap out your clock is still too slow for tron and combo
-other walkers generally seen in a more controlling build only worsen the problems Nahiri has
-Kiki combo is more fragile both due to removal and having to draw two pieces, requires much more space in the deck, and is not that much faster than Nahiri
-Geist midrange decks I do like a lot, but they trade weaknesses that Nahiri has off with their own (and geist midrange already has a very good and acrive primer anyways)
I honestly try different jeskai lists all the time but I never report on them because they are generally underwhelming. Even though the deck has clear issues, I still think Nahiri is the best wincon for modern jeskai control right now because it has such a fast clock once board control is established. On top of that, one of the major issues many pros have repeated about modern control in general is "drawing the wrong half of your deck". Nahiri's +2 eases that problem significantly and it's generally the thing I miss the most when trying other wincons.
It's not an accusation. I've been over this many times. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. I've actually had chats with pros concerning Jeskai Nahiri. What have you done?
EDIT: On second thought, if it's flaming, just go get a mod.
As for repeating yourself, you do repeat that Nahiri is not the only option but without actually proposing that option. Previous page you talk about a flash build, which I adressed (slower, more fragile and does not fix Nahiri's issues) or a Geist build which already has a perfectly fucntional primer.
That's exactly my point though. I think it's silly that people are so fixated on the 2-3 different builds and are arguing over the minute details. When in reality, none of the builds have any serious leg up over each other. (Not talking about you specifically, just saying the trend of this thread)
I have no intentions of winning hearts and minds with FNM results. Hence why I typed "data" in quotes. I just posted it for the hell of it.
More or less agreed here, as far as different builds are concerned. You just trade one set of problems for another. Some meta might favor one over the other slightly, but that's as far as it goes.
We can try the Saheeli Rai/Cat blink builds. That's an area that hasn't been discussed all that much, as far as I can tell.
Like I said, if you don't like my answer, then do your thing, and according to you, I must've proposed something for you to have addressed it.
And congrats to you. You wrote the primer! That completely sidesteps the actual issue. Nahiri Jeskai has major problems. Yes, I still play it on occassion. Yes, I can still win with the deck. If that's where your evaluation stops, then good luck to you. I don't think it's that simple. Because the difference between a random local tournament and a Grand Prix (or SCG Modern Open) is huge. I regularly get to play against Infect (post-ban), Dredge (post-ban), Tron, a couple Grixis Delver/Control decks (they change between the two frequently) and Burn. Depending on who shows up, I can sometimes expect Merfolk, various incarnations of Abzan, RG Breach variants and Ad Nauseam. The main decks I tend to see are generally so fast that whole idea of trying to fix the issue of drawing the wrong half of your deck with Nahiri is laughable. I would argue Ancestral Vision in conjunction with Nahiri might help you but that's still relatively slow. Drawing the wrong half of your deck just sucks but that's just variance.
As far as having addressed the Flash style, all you've done is give your commentary. If you believe Flash style is "slower and more fragile" than Nahiri, I will simply disagree. It has so many built 1-for-1 and 2-for-1's, that I'm not sure how you get to the point where the deck is fragile. Like against what? It has a better chance to close a game against all the decks (except Ad Nauseam) that also wreck Jeskai Nahiri. Not to mention, my Tron matches have so far been in my favor to the annoyance of the main Tron player in my area (there are three others though). I would love to hear more about how fragile it is, but I assume this isn't the subforum for that.
Also, I don't care to fix the issues with Nahiri because the tools don't exist to make the proper repairs. It seems the metagame online and on paper is hostile to durdley decks. It helps that it's a planeswalker, but that only goes so far. So unless you have built-in recursion or just efficient 1-for-1's mixed with 2-for-1's, there's not much else to do. Big mana decks get their mana fast and do huge things that you can't compete with. Tron doesn't care about Nahiri. Betweem Karn, Ugin and Oblivion Stone, they're usually more concerned with just drawing threats. EldraziTron cares even less. They just want their mana on time. Combo decks largely have to flame out on their own for Nahiri Jeskai to win. There are literally 0 tools to combat this type of stuff effectively unless you want to counter every spell they play since we're largely a reactive deck. This isn't even to mention that I believe Infect, historically a good match, has gotten worse with Blossoming Defense. I'm not sure how much any of you have seen of the new Death's Shadow Jund deck, but it's pretty good as well and harder to play around now that they're more of a grindy deck. I still think it's still a slightly positive match for Nahiri Jeskai, but it largely depends on their draw and who plays first. Proactive decks are where everyone is. There are just too many good (and efficient!) things to do proactively. Until the reactive tools get better, there's nothing much to do. Well, I suppose you could switch to Mardu Nahiri. Otherwise, you have to heavily "pre-board" your deck to an expected metagame. Hope you don't guess incorrectly! More importantly, this is the same with most Jeskai variants. So what makes Nahiri special? We basically don't have enough sideboard space to be a decent tournament deck with the tools present, or maybe it depends on what you would consider a success for a weekend out.
All that said, if you're so confident that Jeskai is great and Nahiri is the best thing to do in Jeskai colors, sleeve it up, give us a detailed report from whatever GP you plan on crushing and end your report with an "I told you so." I'll even mail you a cookie (win or lose!).
My point about writing the primer is that I put work into the deck too and really don't care that you PM'd a pro once. You just as well have nothing to show for, so don't just assume you're speaking from higher experience. If you're willing and capable to discuss other ideas on an even level without throwing a hissyfit everyone is more than willing to.
A few days ago we talked a lot about Cryptic Command; I've been trying that and I'm not a fan. It improves matchups that are already good and does not help that much in the poor matchups. I'm going to remove them and actually play one extra colorless land as ghost quarter/tec edge are very good against all these land-based strategies. I did like mainboard Negate, and cmc2 countermagic in general, so I'll be upping my cmc2 counter-count (it's just a huge bummer counterspell isn't modern legal).
Either you can't comprehend what I wrote or you've warped some meanings. You have yet to attack anything relevant to the matter of Nahiri's weaknesses. I'm actually pointing out things. Instead you want to attack me for what I still feel is a relevant comment. I couldn't give a **** how you feel. I'm here for one thing: finding the greatest and latest thing going on. If you feel the "Nahiri hardliners" comment is getting personal, you might need to check what's going on in the home front before coming at me with bull*****. The evidence is all around you if you're willing to take off your rose-colored glasses.
I'm pointing out that I'm actively talking with others who do this for a living, my play test group as well as some notable people who are just pretty damn good. That's on top of personal testing within my play group where we do keep some data. Do I feel like getting into the nitty-gritty with a bunch who can't seemingly get out their own way? Not really. If you want to ignore all that, fine. Just quit the whining ffs.
Oh and let me spell this out: There is no secret.
Oh I don't know. Why do you feel the need to personally attack people who make relevant comments?
What precisely is it about combo decks that makes them tough to handle? (Infect is an obvious exception, of course, since it dies to removal.) Is it the fact that these decks attack from lots of different angles that our answers aren't versatile enough to answer? Are they just to fast or consistent, and overload our interaction?
EDIT: Also, here's an unorthodox idea. What about ceremonious rejection as an answer to tron? It also hits affinity, eldrazi, and a couple other decks.
They are linear and don't interact with us at all. We're an interactive deck and usually win matchups focused on interacting. When a deck doesn't care about what we're doing we often have a tough time.
UWR Control
Legacy:
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Another primer is in progress. Just busy at work.
The mods were the ones who insisted for this to be exclusively Nahiri to better organize results. We were not allowed to make this a general jeskai control thread without getting demoted to deck creation. Now we're in developing competitive anyways, I'd really rather just have this merged with the general control thread. Keeping the old jeskai control primer open also wasn't an option as it was horribly outdated and the person who wrote it didn't come to mtgs anymore.
I'm definitely not trying to be pedantic, but the result was from an SCG Classic and not a GP. Certainly not trying to diminish the result, but the two aren't comparable. As for the two GPs that did take place over the weekend, there was only 1 blue deck in either top 16 and it was Merfolk.