I'm thinking about the following cuts
-3 P&K
-1 Batterskull
-1 Volcanic Fallout
+2 Stormbreath Dragon
+3 Thunderbreak Regent
I'm having trouble finding the last cut. I would think it would be a Roast, but I really like Roast against Goyfs, and with Fatal Push coming into the format I'm expecting to see a resurgence of Jund at my local shop. I'm also debating moving the Batterskull to the sideboard because it has been very good, but I don't really know what purpose it fills. Thoughts?
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Depends on the number of Kolaghan's cmd in your meta but if it's high than batterskull. Otherwise Roast is ok but you have relics to combat goyf as well, and usually you can race them, unless they land more than one but in that case relic is still better than roast. Maybe move Volcanic Fallout to the side, you should be able to survive game 1 with 3 sweepers in the main.
Depends on the number of Kolaghan's cmd in your meta but if it's high than batterskull. Otherwise Roast is ok but you have relics to combat goyf as well, and usually you can race them, unless they land more than one but in that case relic is still better than roast. Maybe move Volcanic Fallout to the side, you should be able to survive game 1 with 3 sweepers in the main.
I ended up doing that, except removing Fallout entirely. I'm going to test how it plays now. Wish me luck!
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Also, Blood Moon has always beat Jund for me. They also have to answer Chandra because their discard won't be as effective with her online. Additionally, four relics MD is super nice to deal with Goyfs (bolt and pop it to kill it). I don't know if Roast is really needed. I've never run it in my builds and never really wished having more removal over Skred, Bolt, and Anger.
Cavern of Souls could be a good land option especially if blue control becomes a big deal again so it's likely to be worthwhile as a 1 of.
I'm having trouble finding the last cut. I would think it would be a Roast, but I really like Roast against Goyfs, and with Fatal Push coming into the format I'm expecting to see a resurgence of Jund at my local shop. I'm also debating moving the Batterskull to the sideboard because it has been very good, but I don't really know what purpose it fills. Thoughts?
Honestly if your going to play vs Jund, I'd much rather play a demigod build just to see if they could deal with it most stock Jund lists can't really beat the card game one if you answer Scavenging Ooze effectively enough.
Batterskull is played mostly because of the 8 point life swing it provides on a ~recurable body. It's not particularly fantastic, but it does it's job just as well as any other of our 5 drop options even without the haste.
This gets brought up a lot (so much so that I think adding a comparison of the two to the primer might be a good idea). It's a simple question with a very complicated answer. It's really a matter of an explosive early game vs. a formidable late game.
SSG is what you want if you value explosive early play. Turn 2 Blood Moon (or turn 1 if you're lucky) is very powerful against most decks. Additionally, it makes red mana, which is relevant if you play Boros Reckoner. You also get some fun tricks like tapping for a threat when you hace SSG and Skred/Bolt in hand. Plus, you can charge out an early Goblin Rabblemaster, possibly the best chance we have against all-in combo decks. However, it is a one-time effect: you cannot use mana from an SSG repeatedly like you can with Mindstone and you cannot cycle it late game. In other words, after the first few turns it is a 2/2 for 3. TLDR, SSG opens up busted early game plays at the cost of clunky hands and draws.
Mindstone is where you want to be if you want late game power. Mind Stone is a mana source that we can use whenever we need it, and thus it smooths out our bad draws. Plus, it isn't quite dead in the late game because it can cycle, albeit for three mana. Mind Stone is also an artifact, so it synergizes with P&K. The downside to Stone is that it takes up our turn two slot, but we generally aren't doing too much on turn two anyways except for holding up removal. It can be awkward if we have a hand that has two lands and a Reckoner. Mind Stone is also a permanent that can be destroyed, and if our opponent knows what's in our hand (by way of a discard effect, for example), he/she can punish us by destroying a man source (this happens very rarely, and is an edge case scenario). TLDR, Mind Stone smooths out our bad hands and draws at the cost of giving our deck much more fair hands.
In my case, I chose Mind Stone because I play P&K and SSG requires the right hand to be amazing, which is what you want with SSG. Otherwise, I found SSG to be very mediocre and ultimately not what I wanted to be doing. Our deck can fight on a fair axis much better than it can at an unfair axis. I think we're better off trying to use our deck's natural strengths than give it a shot at performing both fair and unfair plays on a mediocre level. Even with SSG in the deck, I still found I was better off fighting fair. Early Blood Moon is very good. If you are seeking to jam Blood Moon as early as possible and playing 4, SSG is a good choice if you want to take that route. If you find yourself needing to jam Goblin Rabblemaster out of the sideboard as soon as you possibly can, SSG is a great choice. Otherwise, I would stick with Mind Stone to start with, and then maybe try SSG.
That's exactly the explanation I needed, thanks so much. I wasn't so sure what exactly we were losing by running SSG's but that makes sense now. So would some kind of compromise involving 4 moons, 3 SSG's and 3 mind stones be doable? You get the consistency and the occasional explosive hands, but my guess would be the main deck threat count would be too low.
For those concerned about Fatal Push I started testing 2 main Spellskites in the 75. It's a pretty dece answer and nice early blocker.
What does your list looks like? i'm not sure if skred should be worried enough abt fatal push to play spellskite.. I'm more relieved than anything that it can't do sht to koth or chandra directly. But it's not like i've tested against push yet so
This gets brought up a lot (so much so that I think adding a comparison of the two to the primer might be a good idea). It's a simple question with a very complicated answer. It's really a matter of an explosive early game vs. a formidable late game.
SSG is what you want if you value explosive early play. Turn 2 Blood Moon (or turn 1 if you're lucky) is very powerful against most decks. Additionally, it makes red mana, which is relevant if you play Boros Reckoner. You also get some fun tricks like tapping for a threat when you hace SSG and Skred/Bolt in hand. Plus, you can charge out an early Goblin Rabblemaster, possibly the best chance we have against all-in combo decks. However, it is a one-time effect: you cannot use mana from an SSG repeatedly like you can with Mindstone and you cannot cycle it late game. In other words, after the first few turns it is a 2/2 for 3. TLDR, SSG opens up busted early game plays at the cost of clunky hands and draws.
Mindstone is where you want to be if you want late game power. Mind Stone is a mana source that we can use whenever we need it, and thus it smooths out our bad draws. Plus, it isn't quite dead in the late game because it can cycle, albeit for three mana. Mind Stone is also an artifact, so it synergizes with P&K. The downside to Stone is that it takes up our turn two slot, but we generally aren't doing too much on turn two anyways except for holding up removal. It can be awkward if we have a hand that has two lands and a Reckoner. Mind Stone is also a permanent that can be destroyed, and if our opponent knows what's in our hand (by way of a discard effect, for example), he/she can punish us by destroying a man source (this happens very rarely, and is an edge case scenario). TLDR, Mind Stone smooths out our bad hands and draws at the cost of giving our deck much more fair hands.
In my case, I chose Mind Stone because I play P&K and SSG requires the right hand to be amazing, which is what you want with SSG. Otherwise, I found SSG to be very mediocre and ultimately not what I wanted to be doing. Our deck can fight on a fair axis much better than it can at an unfair axis. I think we're better off trying to use our deck's natural strengths than give it a shot at performing both fair and unfair plays on a mediocre level. Even with SSG in the deck, I still found I was better off fighting fair. Early Blood Moon is very good. If you are seeking to jam Blood Moon as early as possible and playing 4, SSG is a good choice if you want to take that route. If you find yourself needing to jam Goblin Rabblemaster out of the sideboard as soon as you possibly can, SSG is a great choice. Otherwise, I would stick with Mind Stone to start with, and then maybe try SSG.
That's exactly the explanation I needed, thanks so much. I wasn't so sure what exactly we were losing by running SSG's but that makes sense now. So would some kind of compromise involving 4 moons, 3 SSG's and 3 mind stones be doable? You get the consistency and the occasional explosive hands, but my guess would be the main deck threat count would be too low.
You really don't want both unless you're cutting removal or threats, and both of those are better than either drawing a Mind Stone or SSG late. I recommend only using one or the other.
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For those concerned about Fatal Push I started testing 2 main Spellskites in the 75. It's a pretty dece answer and nice early blocker.
What does your list looks like? i'm not sure if skred should be worried enough abt fatal push to play spellskite.. I'm more relieved than anything that it can't do sht to koth or chandra directly. But it's not like i've tested against push yet so
You may be right. I may be overreacting to it based on too little matches. My Eternal Scourges are constantly in and out. When they're great they're great, but I can't settle on them for some reason.
Idk if running PnK and Double Dragon is right. Seems like your splitting between what you want to be doing. In any case, I don't think your list would be weak enough to Fatel Push to justify Spellskite. On another note though, it can help with the Infect matches and is fodder to PnK.
Idk if running PnK and Double Dragon is right. Seems like your splitting between what you want to be doing. In any case, I don't think your list would be weak enough to Fatel Push to justify Spellskite. On another note though, it can help with the Infect matches and is fodder to PnK.
That too is a fair point. I just love the couple so much. I'm always happy to draw and play them.
Spellskite is only really good mainboard when you're actively trying to protect a valuable threat or combo-piece... we don't really care much if one of our threats gets answered, more so if you're running Eternal Scourge.
Of course you can have a local metagame that justifies Spellskite mainboard, but protecting something isn't important enough to run it, i think.
I just tried out Heart of Kiran for 10ish matches or so. It's pretty damn sweet in this deck. I put back the Pia and Kiran Nalaar and removed the 4 drop dragons and spellskites. I's great a putting he pressure on as well as defending planeswalkers. Plus it sacs to Pia. I highly suggest trying it out as a 2fer.
I was thinking of opening my data more to the public to help us figure might matchups more quickly.
So if I make a spreadsheet who's willing to help contribute data besides myself?
Quite literally all that's needed is Game 1, 2, & 3 play/draw win loss and what deck your opponent was on.
I won't be able to get this up today since all my data is scribbled in my notebook, but I could get it done by the end of day tomorrow (maybe)
I can contribute to this. I achieved my goals with U tron and I'm just about ready to get back on the grind with Skred. I'll be trying out very unorthadox lists though, so I'm not sure if that would affect the data. I'm talking lists with possibly no relics or koths, and random things like isochron/dragon tempest.
I can contribute to this. I achieved my goals with U tron and I'm just about ready to get back on the grind with Skred. I'll be trying out very unorthadox lists though, so I'm not sure if that would affect the data. I'm talking lists with possibly no relics or koths, and random things like isochron/dragon tempest.
Overall as an archetype our matchups aren't really changed that drastically between builds, but I figured we might do a different spreadsheet for each build and go from there if we have to. Not 100% sure how we could differentiate the builds from each other in an excel formula without getting really complex with the data input.
Really I'm going to start with probably separate sheets until someone comes along and fixes everything for me right now this is what I identify for each build and I'll just hope everyone puts data in correctly
For those concerned about Fatal Push I started testing 2 main Spellskites in the 75. It's a pretty dece answer and nice early blocker.
What does your list looks like? i'm not sure if skred should be worried enough abt fatal push to play spellskite.. I'm more relieved than anything that it can't do sht to koth or chandra directly. But it's not like i've tested against push yet so
Fatal Push does hurt Skred. Skred used to make the two best removals look silly in Bolt and Path. Neither killed our early clock. Fatal Push easily saves 4 dmg and stone rains a land. It hurts and it also hurts Koth's ultimate somewhat. Spell Skite might be need to be revisited in testing.
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2x Scrying Sheets
4x Skred
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Volcanic Fallout
3x Anger of the Gods
4x Mind Stone
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Batterskull
3x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Koth of the Hammer
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
I'm thinking about the following cuts
-3 P&K
-1 Batterskull
-1 Volcanic Fallout
+2 Stormbreath Dragon
+3 Thunderbreak Regent
I'm having trouble finding the last cut. I would think it would be a Roast, but I really like Roast against Goyfs, and with Fatal Push coming into the format I'm expecting to see a resurgence of Jund at my local shop. I'm also debating moving the Batterskull to the sideboard because it has been very good, but I don't really know what purpose it fills. Thoughts?
Also, Blood Moon has always beat Jund for me. They also have to answer Chandra because their discard won't be as effective with her online. Additionally, four relics MD is super nice to deal with Goyfs (bolt and pop it to kill it). I don't know if Roast is really needed. I've never run it in my builds and never really wished having more removal over Skred, Bolt, and Anger.
If i were doing double dragon's I'd run something like this.
3x Blood Moon
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Koth of the Hammer
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Scrying Sheets
4x Mind Stone
4x Skred
21x Snow-Covered Mountain
4x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Thunderbreak Regent
Cavern of Souls could be a good land option especially if blue control becomes a big deal again so it's likely to be worthwhile as a 1 of.
Honestly if your going to play vs Jund, I'd much rather play a demigod build just to see if they could deal with it most stock Jund lists can't really beat the card game one if you answer Scavenging Ooze effectively enough.
Batterskull is played mostly because of the 8 point life swing it provides on a ~recurable body. It's not particularly fantastic, but it does it's job just as well as any other of our 5 drop options even without the haste.
That's exactly the explanation I needed, thanks so much. I wasn't so sure what exactly we were losing by running SSG's but that makes sense now. So would some kind of compromise involving 4 moons, 3 SSG's and 3 mind stones be doable? You get the consistency and the occasional explosive hands, but my guess would be the main deck threat count would be too low.
What does your list looks like? i'm not sure if skred should be worried enough abt fatal push to play spellskite.. I'm more relieved than anything that it can't do sht to koth or chandra directly. But it's not like i've tested against push yet so
You may be right. I may be overreacting to it based on too little matches. My Eternal Scourges are constantly in and out. When they're great they're great, but I can't settle on them for some reason.
3x Mind Stone
2x Coldsteel Heart
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Blood Moon
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Skred
3x Anger of the Gods
Creatures and Threats
2x Eternal Scourge or Spellskite
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Koth of the Hammer
3x Thunderbreak Regent
3x Stormbreath Dragon
18x Snow-Covered Mountain
2x Gemstone Caverns
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Scrying Sheets
3x Molten Rain
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Dragon's Claw
2x Sudden Shock
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Blood Moon
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Vandalblast
1x Shattering Spree
1x Walking Ballista
That too is a fair point. I just love the couple so much. I'm always happy to draw and play them.
Of course you can have a local metagame that justifies Spellskite mainboard, but protecting something isn't important enough to run it, i think.
It can be crewed by mountains animated by "Koth" or Eternal Scourge/Boros Reckoner (or P&K + a thopter).
So if I make a spreadsheet who's willing to help contribute data besides myself?
Quite literally all that's needed is Game 1, 2, & 3 play/draw win loss and what deck your opponent was on.
I won't be able to get this up today since all my data is scribbled in my notebook, but I could get it done by the end of day tomorrow (maybe)
Overall as an archetype our matchups aren't really changed that drastically between builds, but I figured we might do a different spreadsheet for each build and go from there if we have to. Not 100% sure how we could differentiate the builds from each other in an excel formula without getting really complex with the data input.
Really I'm going to start with probably separate sheets until someone comes along and fixes everything for me right now this is what I identify for each build and I'll just hope everyone puts data in correctly
Fatal Push does hurt Skred. Skred used to make the two best removals look silly in Bolt and Path. Neither killed our early clock. Fatal Push easily saves 4 dmg and stone rains a land. It hurts and it also hurts Koth's ultimate somewhat. Spell Skite might be need to be revisited in testing.