You say no one is reading your stuff but I don't get why you say that. Kami is unplayable and what you say is false here. How is Kami killing those for ZERO? The card cost 2cmc to cast so it'll always be at least 2 cmc.
Shattering Spree plays around Chalice on one as well because the replication isn't countered. Why would anyone play Kami with cards like Shattering Spree, Vandalblast and Shatterstorm available?
Also Figure of Destiny is not good in this deck at all. It doesn't race combo like you say as Rabble does it better period. You are getting incredibly defensive for no reason.
You should really work your attitude, Yorck. We're all good players here so don't go backing up your arguments by saying others can't play the format.. don't care how long you've played either.
As for the discussion, both Rabblemaster and Figure are fine clocks to add, but neither will outright win you tron/combo games. Imo I think some lock or control piece (ex. M Rain) do the job better and let Koth do the beats, but if I had to chose I'd say Rabble for SSG list and Figure for Mind Stone list.
I rather like the idea with creature-based artifact removal, thought. Idk if Torch Fiend or Hearth Kami would be better, but seems more sideable against decks where artifact removal is somewhat useful, like Tron/Infect/Vial decks. Doubt it's worth it due to mana efficiency tho, but interesting.
I like the idea of Kami becasue I've been blown out by spellskite too many times, I've casted Shattering spree with 3x replicate to blow up a bridge against Lantern, only to have him pay 1 blue, and take 6 damage from skite to then win the game. I've also lost to Inkmoth with Shattering Spree in hand. I'm not saying Spree sucks, I still think its one of the best red artifact hate in the game, but there are very real situations where Kami's restriction is in fact better.
Birch84 - Based on your comment I would assume that you're not familiar with casting cost x. A spell's converted casting cost is what ever is printed in the top right corner, if that value contains an x, the x only carries the value of mana paid into it while ON the stack. Once its resolved it becomes 0. While on the field Chalice of the void's CC is 0, Kami can kill it with a 0 mana activation, from which Spellskite can't redirect, because it targets a specific mana cost. While on the stack if x is 1 it can be countered by spell snare, because at that time its 2.
Any one feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, its been a while since I've gone into rules stuff.
Rabble and Figure, I think Rabble is faster, and better in a race, but Figure does have the ability to eventually survive Anger. This point is moot for me however, because if I was playing tron, or racing a combo deck, chances are I would cut a sweeper, because the deck I'm racing wouldn't have too many creatures for me to interact with.
Yorc81 - Thanks for the input man, but many things discussed in this forum have been tested to hell and back, your ideas are interesting, but you're expecting people here to drop what they're playing and jump on your train which isn't going to happen. Play your list, put up some numbers in large tournaments and you'll have more success converting people. Until then it'll just be your word against theirs.
I do understand how value of x is. I've been playing magic since 2000. It's just how he worded it. He implied the cost is zero overall but there is an investment is what im saying. Vandal Blast and Shattering Spree also get around Spell Skite and Chalice and have way more uses.
I understand Spellskite but in decks running spellskite you can also skred it. I'm not saying Kami doesn't have applicable uses but this is Modern and you only get 15 SB slots. You need to have better more diverse answers.
This forum has tried a lot of things so it's not like they are closed minded. We have about 6 versions of Skred so obviously we are open minded.
I just disagree with a lot of his cards and he seems to get mad at people who do. Also the comment "good" players will board out removal vs us is just wrong. Yeah removal isn't great but Bolt stays in to stop Koth from ultimating. Bolt also kills Pia and resets Eternal. Terminates stay in since they kill Koth lands and Stormbreath. If you board out removal vs Skred you will die unless you are playing a straight combo deck.
Thats not really Skred and a black splash has been tried many times and you just benefit taking the deck in a different direction with a somewhat same gameplan.
Here is my Rakdos control deck that ive had better results with lately.
skite beats bolt, and sucks up artifact removal, its been brought in against me many times, sure you can skred it, but I'd much rather skred, or spree what ever its protecting. Not every one runs roast. Against lantern I usually side out skred, because they don't have other creatures I can kill, and I keep in bolt so I can still aim for the dome, skite now eats up my artifact removal. Infect runs them main and/or side it is a thing against us.
Birch - I reread your comment, I see you were talking about Kami costing two, I thought you were talking about chalice always costing two.
Is Spellskite even a card that people would side in against "Skred Red" ?
It doesn't seem very good against us unless I'm missing something.
It's a worthwhile card to board in vs us if you playing infect, Abzan Company/Chord, or even Kiki Chord. That said those are probably the only decks that should consider boarding it in.
You can also kill Spellskite with a Reckoner and any burn spell, it's pretty bad versus Koth, Chandra, and Stormbreath... I don't think it is that relevant for us. But if you're worried about artifacts, the spell-based solutions are better.
FoD isn't awful, but in any situation that it's good, Rabblemaster is likely better.
I'm liking that a lot of innovation has come back to this deck.
What's the optimal number of 3 drop creatures for this deck? I feel like 2 is not enough, but I have no idea what I should cut for a third. I'm thinking I should take out Volcanic Fallout because it never really feels like it does enough. Thoughts?
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A few pages back Simian Spirit Guide was discussed again and it got me thinking (hopefully not igniting the Mind Stone vs. SSG debate again, this is strictly about a sideboard plan). Generally I favor Mind Stone as my playstyle falls to the more controlling side and Mind Stone seems to bring more consistancy to the late game than SSG. However, we are week to combo decks like Ad Naseaum, Storm and Scapeshift (and Tron) and a T2 Goblin Rabblemaster (perhaps complimented by a fast Blood Moon) seems to be our best answer to these match-ups.
So my idea is, how about running Mind Stone main and then run SSG's in the sideboard, so for our worst match-ups we side into 3-4 Molten Rains (which most sideboards run anyway), 3 Goblin Rabble Master (which some already run in the sideboard) and then 4 SSG's (or 3 SSG side and a 3-1 Stone-SSG split in the main). Suddenly you've got 9-10 very good 3 drops vs. our worst matchups (including Blood Moon), which can be powered out on T2 by SSG. I know it's a lot of sideboard spots, but from the position that the main function of the sideboard should be to improve your bad matchups, rather than make your good matchups better it could be worth it.
Now sideboard is of course always meta dependant (and the whole SSG sideboard plan I'm sugesting here should only be considered if your meta has a fair representation of our bad matchups), but it could look something like this:
I think this got lost in the sauce with discussion on which beater to put a clock on and what artifact removal is best...But I wanted to point out that I like this idea overall.
I've mused about making the sideboard more like RDW or Burn to throw off game 2's. The problem is that 15 cards won't make a huge impact given my list, maybe if I was on the Reckoner plan.
A few pages back Simian Spirit Guide was discussed again and it got me thinking (hopefully not igniting the Mind Stone vs. SSG debate again, this is strictly about a sideboard plan). Generally I favor Mind Stone as my playstyle falls to the more controlling side and Mind Stone seems to bring more consistancy to the late game than SSG. However, we are week to combo decks like Ad Naseaum, Storm and Scapeshift (and Tron) and a T2 Goblin Rabblemaster (perhaps complimented by a fast Blood Moon) seems to be our best answer to these match-ups.
So my idea is, how about running Mind Stone main and then run SSG's in the sideboard, so for our worst match-ups we side into 3-4 Molten Rains (which most sideboards run anyway), 3 Goblin Rabble Master (which some already run in the sideboard) and then 4 SSG's (or 3 SSG side and a 3-1 Stone-SSG split in the main). Suddenly you've got 9-10 very good 3 drops vs. our worst matchups (including Blood Moon), which can be powered out on T2 by SSG. I know it's a lot of sideboard spots, but from the position that the main function of the sideboard should be to improve your bad matchups, rather than make your good matchups better it could be worth it.
Now sideboard is of course always meta dependant (and the whole SSG sideboard plan I'm sugesting here should only be considered if your meta has a fair representation of our bad matchups), but it could look something like this:
I think this got lost in the sauce with discussion on which beater to put a clock on and what artifact removal is best...But I wanted to point out that I like this idea overall.
I've mused about making the sideboard more like RDW or Burn to throw off game 2's. The problem is that 15 cards won't make a huge impact given my list, maybe if I was on the Reckoner plan.
Whew, just made it through the entire primer conversation. Took a while, but lots of interesting discussions are hidden in these pages.
A few pages back Simian Spirit Guide was discussed again and it got me thinking (hopefully not igniting the Mind Stone vs. SSG debate again, this is strictly about a sideboard plan). Generally I favor Mind Stone as my playstyle falls to the more controlling side and Mind Stone seems to bring more consistancy to the late game than SSG. However, we are week to combo decks like Ad Naseaum, Storm and Scapeshift (and Tron) and a T2 Goblin Rabblemaster (perhaps complimented by a fast Blood Moon) seems to be our best answer to these match-ups.
I ran a sb like this a while back, but I don't remember if I was running mind stones in the main. I might have been running pyrite spellbombs/removal. It's a pretty good plan. In certain matchups, a fast Rabblemaster, Blood Moon, Chalice on 1, or even Koth can seal games. Something that gets overlooked often is that when you run simians with rabble/moon/chalice is that you get the option to aggressively mulligan, rather than trying to find a decent/stable hand.
I personally run 3 sudden shock SB because of all the infect around here. I th8nk if you expect any infect you need at least 2 sudden shocks in the SB as they now run 8 hexproof spells thanks to wizards terrible choice of printing blossoming defense.
I think it was because I took out the rabblemasters from the side, and then the simians weren't worth it anymore. Either that, or it was because I didn't want to win games with T2 blood moons anymore because I didn't find it satisfying at the time/friends whined too much. Sideboard space was never an issue for me because my sideboard choices suck anyway. If I were to go back now, I'd probably run the simians in the mainboard instead. Maybe a split between mind stones and simians.
I'd still run a rabblemaster in a mind strone build as I just think it's a fine card. If anything most of the time I only really board that card in for when I need that extra "must answer" threat. Sure turn 2 is lot better than turn 3, but either way most of the removal we face can be cast turn l-4 plus we can slow decks like Tron and valakut down enough with mainboard moons as it is.
Is it a silver bullet? No, and it's not meant to be. It's literally what it is. A potential game ending threat we can pull in when we need it.
Basically if you ever watch me play the deck I pull the card in vs a lot more decks than people would expect me to. I've played it vs Jund, Jeskai, grixis, Abzan, death shadow, infect, burn, and sometimes vs affinity (literally hinges on if I see thoughtcast or dispatch).
I've considered trying it mainboard, but I have reservations about that since I normally run 4 angers in the main anymore. PnK is wonky enough sometimes and I'm down to 2 of those.
I really like it against burn, infect and affinity as well. They're kind of like a 3 mana Koth, where whether they ignore it, or waste time/resources dealing it, I'm fine either way. Against Control, they're extra threats that soak up countermagic and removal to clear the way for the bigger things. I don't know if I'd run them mainboard, though it really doesn't seem like a bad idea. There might be a space issue.
I agree with the notion of Goblin Rabblemaster being good no matter what. Sometimes you just need to close games out ASAP, or present higher threat density, and it does both of those things.
I really like it against burn, infect and affinity as well. They're kind of like a 3 mana Koth, where whether they ignore it, or waste time/resources dealing it, I'm fine either way. Against Control, they're extra threats that soak up countermagic and removal to clear the way for the bigger things. I don't know if I'd run them mainboard, though it really doesn't seem like a bad idea. There might be a space issue.
Definitely a space issue. For now it's going to stay as a 3 of in the side.
Got my head kicked in, 2-2 at a local tourney, losing to UB Mill and Affinity and winning against Ad Nauseum and the dreaded player known as "The Bye." Overall glad it happened, I learned a lot. For example, wrath Affinity as soon as possible instead of saying a t3 Mind Stone is fine. Thoughtseize is a card, people! Ah well, back to the drawing board. I might go up to 3 Eternal Scourge in order to not be totally dead on the ground when I run out of removal.
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It feels like only yesterday that this deck ran 5-7 sweepers and things like wurmcoil/solemn/more removal in the main because we didn't really have any better alternatives. If i can remember correctly, even the x4 Relics were originally there to fill in space, but eventually became a mainstay because graveyards became a resource.
Speaking of Solemn, do you guys think we can fit him as a 1-of in the deck?
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I do understand how value of x is. I've been playing magic since 2000. It's just how he worded it. He implied the cost is zero overall but there is an investment is what im saying. Vandal Blast and Shattering Spree also get around Spell Skite and Chalice and have way more uses.
I understand Spellskite but in decks running spellskite you can also skred it. I'm not saying Kami doesn't have applicable uses but this is Modern and you only get 15 SB slots. You need to have better more diverse answers.
This forum has tried a lot of things so it's not like they are closed minded. We have about 6 versions of Skred so obviously we are open minded.
I just disagree with a lot of his cards and he seems to get mad at people who do. Also the comment "good" players will board out removal vs us is just wrong. Yeah removal isn't great but Bolt stays in to stop Koth from ultimating. Bolt also kills Pia and resets Eternal. Terminates stay in since they kill Koth lands and Stormbreath. If you board out removal vs Skred you will die unless you are playing a straight combo deck.
Exactly. I'd also like to add that in the event that it were a problem, Roast and Skred handle it quite efficiently.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Thats not really Skred and a black splash has been tried many times and you just benefit taking the deck in a different direction with a somewhat same gameplan.
Here is my Rakdos control deck that ive had better results with lately.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/517508#paper
Birch - I reread your comment, I see you were talking about Kami costing two, I thought you were talking about chalice always costing two.
RIP Karn EDH
It's a worthwhile card to board in vs us if you playing infect, Abzan Company/Chord, or even Kiki Chord. That said those are probably the only decks that should consider boarding it in.
FoD isn't awful, but in any situation that it's good, Rabblemaster is likely better.
I'm liking that a lot of innovation has come back to this deck.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
That could backfire very quickly, but I like it.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I think this got lost in the sauce with discussion on which beater to put a clock on and what artifact removal is best...But I wanted to point out that I like this idea overall.
I've mused about making the sideboard more like RDW or Burn to throw off game 2's. The problem is that 15 cards won't make a huge impact given my list, maybe if I was on the Reckoner plan.
Anywho, I'd cut the Sudden Shock and Pyrite Spellbomb for two more Dragon's Claw.
Does that sideboard run well with the adonis list?
I ran a sb like this a while back, but I don't remember if I was running mind stones in the main. I might have been running pyrite spellbombs/removal. It's a pretty good plan. In certain matchups, a fast Rabblemaster, Blood Moon, Chalice on 1, or even Koth can seal games. Something that gets overlooked often is that when you run simians with rabble/moon/chalice is that you get the option to aggressively mulligan, rather than trying to find a decent/stable hand.
Is it a silver bullet? No, and it's not meant to be. It's literally what it is. A potential game ending threat we can pull in when we need it.
Basically if you ever watch me play the deck I pull the card in vs a lot more decks than people would expect me to. I've played it vs Jund, Jeskai, grixis, Abzan, death shadow, infect, burn, and sometimes vs affinity (literally hinges on if I see thoughtcast or dispatch).
I've considered trying it mainboard, but I have reservations about that since I normally run 4 angers in the main anymore. PnK is wonky enough sometimes and I'm down to 2 of those.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Definitely a space issue. For now it's going to stay as a 3 of in the side.
Speaking of Solemn, do you guys think we can fit him as a 1-of in the deck?