Cards like tormenting voice aren't card advantage either, and faithless looting actually puts you a card behind, even though its not that problematic... Besides, magma jet doesn't actually dig for an answer, because you still have to wait a full turn in order to get the card you put on top.
Maybe i am overestimating mana efficiency over having to discard a land, but given that modern is such a fast format, i prefer to have as much mana available as possible so that i can cast the spells i drew.
Also, how many times do you get hellbent mid to late game? Apart from 8rack, i don't see that happening very often...
I catagorize Magma Jet, Magmatic Insight, Tormenting voice esque, faithless looting under card selection, since they don't actually add cards to your hand, and thats where Wizards wants red to be, this same restriction exists for red across all formats, with the exception of wheel effects Red does not get to draw.
I agree with your valuation of Mana Efficiency, but needing specific cards just to activate card selection is too restrictive in my experience, Magmatic Insight is awesome if there were a way to get value out of the discarded land, like life from the loam or something, but in Skred it just makes it more difficult to cast. You're looking at it from the perspective of having the land and insight in your hand already, I'm looking at it from the perspective of having one and not the other which happens alot in a deck that struggles with card advantage, and card selection, to begin with.
Most games that I've lost is due to running out of cards in the late game, mid game doesn't happen so much any more. If I lose in the mid, its because I've missed a land drop. This is dependent on my meta which is filled with value decks, or fast agro, so if I don't draw what I need to turn off their value cards, and offense they just run me over. This is why I like Scourge so much.
What Skred lacks in raw card advantage, it makes up for in card quality, cards like anger, the planes walkers, the parents, and Strombreath, all these cards give us an edge in two for ones, or nulling opponent's defense. Magma Jet to me is the best card selection because it can potentially take away a card from the opponent, while adding to our card quality by letting us scry, all by it self, no other cards necessary. All the other card selection doesn't meaningfully affect the board, and additionally require us to have extra cards in hand.
Honestly, I don't think we need all that much in the way of card draw since our card quality is so high. Chandra (both versions) act like card advantage engines, and we don't even need those to win.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Faithless looting sucks, even if you're playing demigods or GDD. We want to play the grindy game, and card disadvantage is not what we want in the grindy game. Magmatic insight might look decent on paper, but it's really not good at all. In most cases, it'll be stuck in our hands as a dead card until late game because we much rather have the land drop rather than cycling it. Monstrosity, P&K, cycling our mindstones/relics, actually take a ton of mana, even though it might not seem like it.
You're trying to solve your issue of running out of gas by adding cards that can potentially draw into threats. Instead, why not just add more threats instead? If you're looking for threats, would you be happier drawing something like a Rabblemaster, or a Magmatic Insight? Would Jund play those cards? No, because they don't care about card selection because each and every one of their threats are equally as threatening. We're in a similar situation.
If you still want something for card advantage, I would advise you to play 2 Chandra TODs or a 3rd Scrying Sheets. If you want something nutty or outlandish, you can try something like Staff of Nin and see how it goes. You never know. It might actually be amazing and end up being a staple.
Yeah, outpost siege is still pretty good. Chandra ToD is an all-star though, taking up the spot of removal, engine, and finisher all at once. The only reason that I can think of to ever play Pyromaster ever again is if you have the SDCC 2014 version and want to show off.
Insight and Faithless sucks, end of story. My thought on Tormenting Voice is that while our cards got quality, they're dimishing in multiples. So if we discard something like 3rd moon or 2nd walker, it's basicly a Divination for 2, which could solve the gas problem relatively cheap. I understand that maximizing topdecks seem like a better idea since it works well in BGx, but it's better to flood on too much removal than extra moons/walkers/bridges.
For the time being a couple pyrite/jets in flex is the safe choice (+2 ToD which I imagine most are playing atm), but it would be cool if Voice/Defiance was tried for a little while until someone got bad experiences actually playing the cards.
Insight and Faithless sucks, end of story. My thought on Tormenting Voice is that while our cards got quality, they're dimishing in multiples. So if we discard something like 3rd moon or 2nd walker, it's basicly a Divination for 2, which could solve the gas problem relatively cheap. I understand that maximizing topdecks seem like a better idea since it works well in BGx, but it's better to flood on too much removal than extra moons/walkers/bridges.
For the time being a couple pyrite/jets in flex is the safe choice (+2 ToD which I imagine most are playing atm), but it would be cool if Voice/Defiance was tried for a little while until someone got bad experiences actually playing the cards.
You should try it and share your experience. I've tried almost every card selection option discussed here, with the exception of spellbomb, and they all fall short. Though it may seem that I'm on the side of Magma Jet, I'm actually against it for the reasons that Okosheep stated, in this deck its better to run more threats than it is to run cards to find them.
Because of the nature of mono red we have to be threat heavy since we dont have the options other colors do. That's why I only really run card selections spells in bid skred lists and even then it's no more than a 1 or 2 of.
Because of the nature of mono red we have to be threat heavy since we dont have the options other colors do. That's why I only really run card selections spells in bid skred lists and even then it's no more than a 1 or 2 of.
I agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly. There's no sense in running card draw/filtration if we could run more threats. Blue control wants draw because it could find them whatever they need, like counters and removal. We run critical masses of removal and threats to get the job done.
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with black we could have:
-terminate
-dreadbore
-rakdos charm
-slaughter games
-olivia voldaren
-kholagan's command
-collective brutality
-duress / thoughtseize
-maybe kalitas/ob nixilis even though double black could be hard to have
I play Jund so I have already all this stuff, if I'd like to test that route, how could the manabase be?
Man access to thoughtseize, and inquisiton is very tempting, considering how this deck feels against blue and combo, and the current package of threats we run can transfer well to his list. If you do test the splash I'd love to hear about it!
My line of thought is a little different, I just want interaction against combo, and better interaction against tron. I love where skred is at the moment, there were just some slots, where I feel could be stronger cards, we have all the reactive answers in the form of removal, splashing black would strengthen the one area we are weak in. I'm just cutting a moon, a ramp, I already have to flex slots that used to be magma jet, and I would much rather have thought seize over magma jet, especially against eldrazi.
The only thing that holds me back is the prevalence of agro in my area, two life from thought seize can really add up, but duress and inquisition just doesn't get there since duress doesn't hit titans, and eldrazi, and inquisition doesn't hit thought-knot, and bigger threats, nor does it hit scapeshift, titan, adnaus, or become imense, or even tasigur/gurmag.
with black we could have:
-terminate
-dreadbore
-rakdos charm
-slaughter games
-olivia voldaren
-kholagan's command
-collective brutality
-duress / thoughtseize
-maybe kalitas/ob nixilis even though double black could be hard to have
I play Jund so I have already all this stuff, if I'd like to test that route, how could the manabase be?
The question I ask is why play Skred when you have access to black removal? If we dont play skred then we no longer need snow covered lands or scrying sheets.
Don't add black to skred it's pointless. If you do just take the deck in a different direction and use Liliana instead of Koth. I run two decks. Skred and this down below. They both have there strength and weaknesses. BR is more subject to gy hate, but doesn't completely rely on it. It's better vs pure combo since you have discard.
After testing the GP list for sometime, I have found that it is a little too light for me on threats. My philosophy on Game 1 strategy is that a deck should be as proactive as possible. Thus, I have gone back to a mostly Boros Reckoner list, and my results have been better (back up to a near 70% win rate as opposed to a 55% win rate). Perhaps I was just inexperienced with a Scourge list, but it seemed less viable to me.
I think you can benefit from a black splash in skred, as long you don't go overboard and end up with a completely different deck.
Stuff like Roast can be replaced by Terminate, Ratchet Bomb can be effectively replaced with Engineered Explosives, which i believe is a BIG upgrade. Slaughter Games can give us a much better shot at beating some troublesome decks too, as well as Collective Brutality, a card that is very effective against a lot of popular decks atm.
As for the mana base, i believe swapping 6-7 mountains for 4 Bloodstained Mire and 2-3 snow-covered swamps should do the trick; also, if your list is runnning Mind Stones, swap them with Coldsteel Heart: this way, you still maintain the same amount of snow permanents in your deck, for sake of Scrying Sheets and Skred.
The point has been made before, regarding any splash, that either you weaken Skred or Koth by removing Snow-lands for shocks or Mountains for basics of the splash. I splashed white before and it just didn't feel as effective as mono-red.
Another option is to just remove Skred and play a different removal spell...but then it's not really Skred anymore.
For me, part of the joy in playing Skred is having a mono-red deck that isn't aggro and seeing players unfamiliar with the deck discover red is more than just aggro.
All that said, innovation comes from testing new brews and I'm always happy to see a list succeed, regardless of whether or not it splashed a second color
Regarding Eternal Scouge, I didn't like it at first. But this weekend I was thinking about how it can be a nightmare for control decks G1. I watched a video, I think MTGGoldfish, where he used Relic of Progenitus to recur the Scourge over and over. I plan to get a few and try them in my brew.
Yes, to recur Eternal Scourge is the reason the card is good. However, it is awful against a planes walker that can target (Jace VP, new Lili, etc) and if your opponent continues to exile them and beat your face with Colonnades before burning you to death, they aren't that great. I played with it for about a month and found that, thanks to the GP, people have figured out how to exploit Scourge. I like the 3-1 split on Reckoner/Scourge at the moment because Reckoners are far better against aggro, which is the majority of the meta right now, and they can provide an alternate win-con with Skred to speed up your clock.
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Modern: Mono-U Tron, Skred
Legacy: ANT, Death and Taxes
EDH: Jori En, Ruin Diver Fast Combo
Pauper: Affinity
Just wondering, is it even worth trying to play janky sideboard cards for fringe decks to give it some shot (as opposed to no chance)? I was thinking about Ad Nauseum and the only cards I could come up with were (1) Witchbane Orb and (2) Possibility Storm (literally impossible for them to win when it resolves). For Bogles/Bant Spirits, perhaps Glaring Spotlight? Ratchet Bomb is probably better except that it dies the same to Stony Silence.
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SCG Oakland. Jeskai Heroic Combo.
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I catagorize Magma Jet, Magmatic Insight, Tormenting voice esque, faithless looting under card selection, since they don't actually add cards to your hand, and thats where Wizards wants red to be, this same restriction exists for red across all formats, with the exception of wheel effects Red does not get to draw.
I agree with your valuation of Mana Efficiency, but needing specific cards just to activate card selection is too restrictive in my experience, Magmatic Insight is awesome if there were a way to get value out of the discarded land, like life from the loam or something, but in Skred it just makes it more difficult to cast. You're looking at it from the perspective of having the land and insight in your hand already, I'm looking at it from the perspective of having one and not the other which happens alot in a deck that struggles with card advantage, and card selection, to begin with.
Most games that I've lost is due to running out of cards in the late game, mid game doesn't happen so much any more. If I lose in the mid, its because I've missed a land drop. This is dependent on my meta which is filled with value decks, or fast agro, so if I don't draw what I need to turn off their value cards, and offense they just run me over. This is why I like Scourge so much.
What Skred lacks in raw card advantage, it makes up for in card quality, cards like anger, the planes walkers, the parents, and Strombreath, all these cards give us an edge in two for ones, or nulling opponent's defense. Magma Jet to me is the best card selection because it can potentially take away a card from the opponent, while adding to our card quality by letting us scry, all by it self, no other cards necessary. All the other card selection doesn't meaningfully affect the board, and additionally require us to have extra cards in hand.
RIP Karn EDH
You're trying to solve your issue of running out of gas by adding cards that can potentially draw into threats. Instead, why not just add more threats instead? If you're looking for threats, would you be happier drawing something like a Rabblemaster, or a Magmatic Insight? Would Jund play those cards? No, because they don't care about card selection because each and every one of their threats are equally as threatening. We're in a similar situation.
If you still want something for card advantage, I would advise you to play 2 Chandra TODs or a 3rd Scrying Sheets. If you want something nutty or outlandish, you can try something like Staff of Nin and see how it goes. You never know. It might actually be amazing and end up being a staple.
And there is Tezzeret's Gambit which is rather meh.
Insight and Faithless sucks, end of story. My thought on Tormenting Voice is that while our cards got quality, they're dimishing in multiples. So if we discard something like 3rd moon or 2nd walker, it's basicly a Divination for 2, which could solve the gas problem relatively cheap. I understand that maximizing topdecks seem like a better idea since it works well in BGx, but it's better to flood on too much removal than extra moons/walkers/bridges.
For the time being a couple pyrite/jets in flex is the safe choice (+2 ToD which I imagine most are playing atm), but it would be cool if Voice/Defiance was tried for a little while until someone got bad experiences actually playing the cards.
Legacy: Death'n'Taxes
You should try it and share your experience. I've tried almost every card selection option discussed here, with the exception of spellbomb, and they all fall short. Though it may seem that I'm on the side of Magma Jet, I'm actually against it for the reasons that Okosheep stated, in this deck its better to run more threats than it is to run cards to find them.
RIP Karn EDH
Man access to thoughtseize, and inquisiton is very tempting, considering how this deck feels against blue and combo, and the current package of threats we run can transfer well to his list. If you do test the splash I'd love to hear about it!
RIP Karn EDH
RIP Karn EDH
RIP Karn EDH
The question I ask is why play Skred when you have access to black removal? If we dont play skred then we no longer need snow covered lands or scrying sheets.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/517508#paper
3 Blood Moon
Sorcery
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Faithless Looting
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
1 Victim of Night
1 Go for the Throat
2 Kolaghan's Command
Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Demigod of Revenge
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Bedlam Reveler
Land
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Temple of Malice
6 Swamp
1 Smoldering Marsh
2 Blood Crypt
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Shattering Spree
1 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
My new list looks like this:
20x Snow-Covered Mountain
2x Scrying Sheets
3x Mind Stone
Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Skred
1x Magma Jet
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Dismember
2x Volcanic Fallout
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Blood Moon
Threats
3x Boros Reckoner
1x Eternal Scourge
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Koth of the Hammer
3x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Batterskull
1x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Crumble to Dust
3x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Pithing Needle
2x Ricochet Trap
1x Shattering Spree
2x Spellskite
1x Vandalblast
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Legacy: ANT, Death and Taxes
EDH: Jori En, Ruin Diver Fast Combo
Pauper: Affinity
Stuff like Roast can be replaced by Terminate, Ratchet Bomb can be effectively replaced with Engineered Explosives, which i believe is a BIG upgrade. Slaughter Games can give us a much better shot at beating some troublesome decks too, as well as Collective Brutality, a card that is very effective against a lot of popular decks atm.
As for the mana base, i believe swapping 6-7 mountains for 4 Bloodstained Mire and 2-3 snow-covered swamps should do the trick; also, if your list is runnning Mind Stones, swap them with Coldsteel Heart: this way, you still maintain the same amount of snow permanents in your deck, for sake of Scrying Sheets and Skred.
Another option is to just remove Skred and play a different removal spell...but then it's not really Skred anymore.
For me, part of the joy in playing Skred is having a mono-red deck that isn't aggro and seeing players unfamiliar with the deck discover red is more than just aggro.
All that said, innovation comes from testing new brews and I'm always happy to see a list succeed, regardless of whether or not it splashed a second color
Regarding Eternal Scouge, I didn't like it at first. But this weekend I was thinking about how it can be a nightmare for control decks G1. I watched a video, I think MTGGoldfish, where he used Relic of Progenitus to recur the Scourge over and over. I plan to get a few and try them in my brew.
Legacy: ANT, Death and Taxes
EDH: Jori En, Ruin Diver Fast Combo
Pauper: Affinity