RIP is def powerful and if I was playing zero reshapers and zero E-wit - it would be a no brainer to add RIP to the board - however even though Relic is generally weaker there are upsides to it - its def less clunky when you want to EE for 2 but have RIP on the field. RIP can also just be too slow to catch Delver dropping an early tasigur.
I can easily see myself cutting Fountain - most of my builds in the past have cut it in favour of an extra basic forest - my std build is 2x Forest, 1x Plains and 2 shocks. However, there are games where you just don't have the colour fixing and others where it leads to non-optimal sequencing. I'm on the fence about Cage - CoCo/chord decks are really tough to beat without something dedicate to stoppping there value train and/or combo - if I was running RIP id be more inclined to give Cage a miss - also Cage gives you a chance against Elves - all-in-all its the best card you can hope to draw vs these decks.
Ive never been overwhelmed by World Breaker - its usually just too slow against everything but BGx or Grixis Control - seems to slow for Lantern as well - great though if they only have one bridge - seems like an unlikely out all-in-all.
Edit: can anyone attest to sea gate wreckage? Any experiences? I feel like it takes a LONG time for it to be active but has the ability to singlehandedly win the game eventually.
um YES.
i played bant at baltimore regionals... tied for 10th, but i had two games when wreckage went online (first tournament testing it) and i drew 5, and 6 cards off of it. i used to use GQ in this spot. sold on sea gate for now.
As long as Tron is still around I'd say GQ is still a good choice - its just has more utility in more matchups - Sea Gate is a fine card I just dont think its better then GQ
I haven't found Tron to be as easy as people like to say - I have some very good Tron players in my meta - but more power to you if you've found it easy.
As you say it hits man lands - and powerful utility lands which can overwhelm us. One of my plans to beat Affinity is to cast worship and make sure I don't die from poison - GQ helps with that. With Abzan CoCo on the rise - hitting a Twonship is pretty important - not to mention the Mirror and Tron (even if you have experienced it as being easy GQ helps).
Cards like Sea Gate are just far more narrow and while helpful against grindy decks - ive found GQ not to be super terrible aginst these decks anyway - hitting ravine for example is pretty useful.
I have also had ghost quarter help to slow merfolk down. Ghost quartering your island or spreading seas land or even just having it to keep them from all ining has bought me time to hit an EE
Has anyone tried Seal of Primordium over Natural State? I know it cost an extra mana but I was thinking it could help against chalice on 1 while having more utility.
Is there any value in running a one-off Wastes as the third Basic, or would the second Forest be better? I'm mostly worried about seeing a lot of Blood Moon at the GP this weekend.
I really don't think it's worth it to add Wastes or Islands which may or may not save you against blood moon / land destruction. In the vast majority of matchups a sea gate or GQ will be better, and I would rather not concede minor advantages across the board for a mild advantage in narrow matchups.
Seal of primordium is way too narrow against moon/prison. I would rather have something instant speed so at least I can break a TKS/Displacer/Worship lock in the mirror. I'm currently running Nature's claim. Yeah it's subpar against affinity, but in reality we're basically never really outracing affinity and only trying to create a locked board state.
I really, really don't like GQ. Yes it has utility, but overwhelmingly we won't want to be in a situation where we want to sacrifice our own mana development to kill a land. The only time when I'll want to be killing my own lands for utility is past turn 5, and at that point we're looking at world breaker territory. The more I think about it the less I like utility lands, but of course this will be a point in continual flux.
Honestly your gameplan against moon decks should be to land a T3 smasher or T2/T3 TKS. I would mull aggressively to find those kinds of hands.
Also, a minor point on world breaker - yes of course it's slow against lantern but lantern games are by definition going to be slow if you haven't won by Turn 4/5. The appeal of breaker is that it needs to be exiled with a pixis or surgical and if your opponent doesn't pay attention it's one way to get out of the lock. World breaker also is an out to worship. I can't say I've been totally impressed with it, but as a sideboard card it has a bunch of random utility. Against GBx it also can't be truly discarded unlike elspeth. The fact that it's colorless and stirrings tutorable also makes it relevant a higher percentage of the time than elspeth. Don't get me wrong, elspeth is way better in the GBx matchups, but world breaker has broader applications.
The way I think of world breaker is that it provides me an advantage simply by being in the deck. It's rarely a card I want in my opener in postboard. However, given the extremely grindy nature of certain games or protentially locked board states (e.g. Worship), the likelihood of world breaker becoming relevant is somewhat high.
Matchups where world breaker is applicable:
GBx
Control
Delver
Lantern
Mirror
Bant spirits
Affinity (yes, very slow, but it pretty much locks out inkmoth as an out to worship)
Tron (?)
Valakut (yes, it's way too slow, but it's probably better than a path or EE. Notably, it doesn't die to 2 valakut triggers. It was relevant in a game where I pathed the first primetime and then world breakered to set them back a land)
Moon / Skred / Prison decks (yes, again slow, but we have a lot of dead cards in these matchups anyway)
I find G1 v moon that hierarchs,talismans and scions are usually enough to get me over the line with early beats, postboard things are obv a lot more comfortable.
I'm a world breaker advocate for the mirror because worship is a thing...yes natures claim over state fixes this but I have issues giving fish and affinity players 4 free life so early on in the game...
Given the big mana meta I'm not sure if bantdrazi will be underrepresented at GP Brisbane but I hate boardstalls lol
Is there any value in running a one-off Wastes as the third Basic, or would the second Forest be better? I'm mostly worried about seeing a lot of Blood Moon at the GP this weekend.
i tun 23 lands w 1 wastes and 1 talisman of progress. no problems against blood moon so far
yeah blood moon isn't in many decks right now ... 1 in affinity usually and UR prison. but UR prowess is on decline. gifts storm maybe. random grixis decks may use it.
talismans/skyspawners are better than wastes MB... and post board you can add some counters/enchantment removal.
Has anyone tried Seal of Primordium over Natural State? I know it cost an extra mana but I was thinking it could help against chalice on 1 while having more utility.
I own Jund and Junk, is there a reason to buy into Bant Eldrazi?
What's the consensus on the popular good matchups and bad matchups? What archetypes is Eldrazi good and bad against?
How is the Tron matchup, does Tron ***** on this deck like every green deck, or is it more like a 40/60 matchup?
I think Bant Eldrazi has options to be good against a lot of decks - depends what you want to win against, thus MD and SB cards will move around. For example if you want better game against Affinity and Infect you play more Skyspawners and punch up Blessed Alliance and Stony Silence. If you want to grind harder against BGx type decks play more Reshapers and include 'bombs' in the sb. If you are worried about combo play more counterspells and other cards GY hate, Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void.
TRON
It really depends on your sb configuration. If you play Stony, Natural State, Stubborn Denial, GQ, Pithing Needle - id say Tron is ok - many on here would say its favourable to good. It's certainly better then GBx. TKS and Displacer can really lock them out - and Smasher can race them - there are many outs.
I have also had ghost quarter help to slow merfolk down. Ghost quartering your island or spreading seas land or even just having it to keep them from all ining has bought me time to hit an EE
I agree - Ive used GQ in this way - and there are many more corner cases - like taking burn off a colour - this has won me games in the past. Killing academy ruins to stop recurring Ensnaring Bridge - things like that..
One other thing - ive noticed I can get screwed for colourless sometimes when I dont run GQ (in cases where i've run Hallowed Fountain and 3 basics) - I do like an extra source of colourless - I guess this could be fixed by running more pain lands as well..
Like I said before I think at least 14 is the right number for colorless sources. That gives 90%+ chance of colorless by turn 1. I'm currently doing this with 4 cavern / 3 brushland / 3 yavimaya.
If you can come up with 23 land mana base that does NOT have hallowed fountain but has 10 white / 13 blue (with cavern) / 13 green / 14 colorless let me know.
How is the Tron matchup, does Tron ***** on this deck like every green deck, or is it more like a 40/60 matchup?
Bant is way better than Jund against Tron. At the very least Ugin doesn't really do much against us. We also naturally close at least a turn faster than Jund. I can't say it's favored for us because their nut draws still steamroll us.
Random side note, I tested Thragtusk and I dislike it. It's too slow against burn and it's only a 2-for-1 and not a game-winning bomb against GBx.
Chalice on 1 is reasonable against Ad Naus. You definitely shouldn't be taking out Smashers. I also don't think TKS lock is that great against them because it actually allows them to dig deeper for Ad Naus / Spoils. The only thing you're taking away from them is Unlife and we already have a reasonable answer against that in the form of EE's. People try pithing needle naming Lightning Storm but that really only just buys you a turn, since they'll Lab Man, so I don't really like that idea.
You also shouldn't have scryed hierarch to the bottom. There's still a chance you can turn 2 TKS with that draw if the next card were a temple.
Also kind of goes without saying that Ugin and Warping Wail are bad...
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I can easily see myself cutting Fountain - most of my builds in the past have cut it in favour of an extra basic forest - my std build is 2x Forest, 1x Plains and 2 shocks. However, there are games where you just don't have the colour fixing and others where it leads to non-optimal sequencing. I'm on the fence about Cage - CoCo/chord decks are really tough to beat without something dedicate to stoppping there value train and/or combo - if I was running RIP id be more inclined to give Cage a miss - also Cage gives you a chance against Elves - all-in-all its the best card you can hope to draw vs these decks.
Ive never been overwhelmed by World Breaker - its usually just too slow against everything but BGx or Grixis Control - seems to slow for Lantern as well - great though if they only have one bridge - seems like an unlikely out all-in-all.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
um YES.
i played bant at baltimore regionals... tied for 10th, but i had two games when wreckage went online (first tournament testing it) and i drew 5, and 6 cards off of it. i used to use GQ in this spot. sold on sea gate for now.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Tron is an easy matchup in my experience, I'm 12-2 personally since I've been piloting the deck. ¯\_(';')_/¯
As you say it hits man lands - and powerful utility lands which can overwhelm us. One of my plans to beat Affinity is to cast worship and make sure I don't die from poison - GQ helps with that. With Abzan CoCo on the rise - hitting a Twonship is pretty important - not to mention the Mirror and Tron (even if you have experienced it as being easy GQ helps).
Cards like Sea Gate are just far more narrow and while helpful against grindy decks - ive found GQ not to be super terrible aginst these decks anyway - hitting ravine for example is pretty useful.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
GUInfect UMerfolk RW Burn GRWBU Humans GWUBant Eldrazi GR RG EldraziC Serum Powder EldraziC Eldrazi TronGB GB Rock
Legacy:
GUInfect
RGLands
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
Seal of primordium is way too narrow against moon/prison. I would rather have something instant speed so at least I can break a TKS/Displacer/Worship lock in the mirror. I'm currently running Nature's claim. Yeah it's subpar against affinity, but in reality we're basically never really outracing affinity and only trying to create a locked board state.
I really, really don't like GQ. Yes it has utility, but overwhelmingly we won't want to be in a situation where we want to sacrifice our own mana development to kill a land. The only time when I'll want to be killing my own lands for utility is past turn 5, and at that point we're looking at world breaker territory. The more I think about it the less I like utility lands, but of course this will be a point in continual flux.
Honestly your gameplan against moon decks should be to land a T3 smasher or T2/T3 TKS. I would mull aggressively to find those kinds of hands.
Also, a minor point on world breaker - yes of course it's slow against lantern but lantern games are by definition going to be slow if you haven't won by Turn 4/5. The appeal of breaker is that it needs to be exiled with a pixis or surgical and if your opponent doesn't pay attention it's one way to get out of the lock. World breaker also is an out to worship. I can't say I've been totally impressed with it, but as a sideboard card it has a bunch of random utility. Against GBx it also can't be truly discarded unlike elspeth. The fact that it's colorless and stirrings tutorable also makes it relevant a higher percentage of the time than elspeth. Don't get me wrong, elspeth is way better in the GBx matchups, but world breaker has broader applications.
The way I think of world breaker is that it provides me an advantage simply by being in the deck. It's rarely a card I want in my opener in postboard. However, given the extremely grindy nature of certain games or protentially locked board states (e.g. Worship), the likelihood of world breaker becoming relevant is somewhat high.
Matchups where world breaker is applicable:
I'm a world breaker advocate for the mirror because worship is a thing...yes natures claim over state fixes this but I have issues giving fish and affinity players 4 free life so early on in the game...
Given the big mana meta I'm not sure if bantdrazi will be underrepresented at GP Brisbane but I hate boardstalls lol
i tun 23 lands w 1 wastes and 1 talisman of progress. no problems against blood moon so far
talismans/skyspawners are better than wastes MB... and post board you can add some counters/enchantment removal.
I own Jund and Junk, is there a reason to buy into Bant Eldrazi?
What's the consensus on the popular good matchups and bad matchups? What archetypes is Eldrazi good and bad against?
How is the Tron matchup, does Tron ***** on this deck like every green deck, or is it more like a 40/60 matchup?
Set EE to zero - blow up chalice.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
I think Bant Eldrazi has options to be good against a lot of decks - depends what you want to win against, thus MD and SB cards will move around. For example if you want better game against Affinity and Infect you play more Skyspawners and punch up Blessed Alliance and Stony Silence. If you want to grind harder against BGx type decks play more Reshapers and include 'bombs' in the sb. If you are worried about combo play more counterspells and other cards GY hate, Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void.
TRON
It really depends on your sb configuration. If you play Stony, Natural State, Stubborn Denial, GQ, Pithing Needle - id say Tron is ok - many on here would say its favourable to good. It's certainly better then GBx. TKS and Displacer can really lock them out - and Smasher can race them - there are many outs.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
I agree - Ive used GQ in this way - and there are many more corner cases - like taking burn off a colour - this has won me games in the past. Killing academy ruins to stop recurring Ensnaring Bridge - things like that..
One other thing - ive noticed I can get screwed for colourless sometimes when I dont run GQ (in cases where i've run Hallowed Fountain and 3 basics) - I do like an extra source of colourless - I guess this could be fixed by running more pain lands as well..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
If you can come up with 23 land mana base that does NOT have hallowed fountain but has 10 white / 13 blue (with cavern) / 13 green / 14 colorless let me know.
Bant is way better than Jund against Tron. At the very least Ugin doesn't really do much against us. We also naturally close at least a turn faster than Jund. I can't say it's favored for us because their nut draws still steamroll us.
Random side note, I tested Thragtusk and I dislike it. It's too slow against burn and it's only a 2-for-1 and not a game-winning bomb against GBx.
You also shouldn't have scryed hierarch to the bottom. There's still a chance you can turn 2 TKS with that draw if the next card were a temple.
Also kind of goes without saying that Ugin and Warping Wail are bad...