[quote from="DuceMcCrappin »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-1-modern/671191-bant-eldrazi?comment=1135"]
*I decided to test the deck out and it's not going so well right now. The deck just seems too fair in this meta. Even the best draws of turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer often can't win against other decks' best draws. Now it could be that I'm testing against the wrong decks. I've done Elves, Bogles, Grishoalbrand, Titan Shift, and Amulet Titan. It has only done well vs. Amulet Titan out of those so far, mostly because of the inconsistency of the deck without Summer Bloom. I am going to test vs. GR Ponza next. (I am not testing Grixis or GBx variants because I pretty much know the answer to those. I want to see how it fairs against other decks...
Those decks are all weak matchups for Eldrazi - spell-based combo and go-wide. I don't think you're doing the deck any favors by testing it against such a skewed meta.
This is just the initial draft, any suggestions? I've seen some builds MD Explosives but I think it's a meta call? One big question mark has been Matter Reshaper vs Eldrazi Skyspawner? With the introduction of Fatal Push into the format, don't both these cards get better? What are the pros/cons of running these and what would the ideal split be?
I managed to test against: UW Control (2-0 win) WBRG Griselbrand (2-1) win
I was just excited to play the deck and asked a few players to jam with me (some are quite skilled, RPTQ qualified and a few similar faces from my Standard PPTQ grinder days). It's nice to have a deck to learn and always have, that's one of the things I liked about modern but got caught up in standard for way to long. Thanks for any input you can give.
I would not maindeck blessed alliance. In many cases it just becomes a 2-mana removal spell against their worst creature, which is pretty bad. I also don't know when you would want to side in Gideon - if you're worried about fair matchups, I'd rather put in more Elspeths. I would definitely move EE to the MB. It is a "meta" pick but the truth is that the deck has a lot of unwinnable matchups without MB EE, such as Elves, Merfolk, Prison decks. The % you gain by moving EE to MB is well worth it, and it's also not a dead card in fair matchups (you also bring it in against Jund, Abzan, Grixis delver).
----
So I tested Lightning greaves and it sucks. It singlehanded won me 1 game vs Grixis delver but was a dead draw most of the time. Still looking to replace my 1-of spellskite slot - maybe a 4th drowner or dismember instead.
I have also been testing Unified will and like it so far. It's less narrow than Disdainful stroke. I really dislike Stubs - it's dead very often and I will definitely not keep a hand only on the basis of having a Stub.
Currently I am testing Nevermore. It's great against any spell-based deck that is dependent on a few cards. In my own testing it has frequently singlehandedly won games vs RG breach whenever I can cast it T3. I'd bring it against RG Breach, Ad nauseaum, Ensnaring Bridge decks, Blood moon decks. My main worry is the WW casting cost.
EE on 1 wins us this match up. We can also use scions to block and then sac to prevent them from gaining life. Eventually we can swarm with scions for a win. Landing a blessed alliance or worship can be game ending for them.
Out: 4x path to exile, 1 Matter Reshaper
In 1 EE, 2x Blessed Alliance, 2x Worship
Your guide is well thought out and mostly correct, but I have a nitpick here. Here's what Bogles sides against you.
In: 2 Gaddock Teeg, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 0-2 Nature's Claim
Out: 1 Spirit Link, 1 Unflinching Courage, 2 Kor Spiritdancer, 0-2 Spirit Mantle, 0-2 other Auras
If you don't have Path to Exile, you're going to be very sad about a turn 2 Gaddock Teeg, especially on the play. Leyline of Sanctity makes Thought-Knot Seer NOT a broken card and makes Blessed Alliance a "gain 4" or "untap 2 creatures."
In my experience, the matchup is pretty close to even, but I would give a slight edge to Bogles. There is no doubt that main board Engineered Explosives could catch a player off guard. But without it, a Bogle basically gets much larger than any 1 Eldrazi and heaven forbid, it has Daybreak Coronet. Then you are praying for the 2 of or 4 Ancient Stirrings to find the 2 of in time. Also contrary to thought, Bogles can rebuild. Kor Spiritdancer is a hell of a card!
Thank you for your imput. I will update the guide and add your input on the sideboard.
- A lot of people play 2x Stony Silence in the board (and 3 Engineered Explosives spread across main/side) -> doesnt that bite a lot of times? E.g. vs Affinity i see many lists playing all 5 cards, but if you drop Stony, your Explosives (as well as your Talisman) are dead. Is it still worth it?
Having 5x of cards that are awesome in a matchup > having 3 cards that are awesome in a matchup. If we run into affinity and can't use our explosives because we have silence out.... well awesome, we already won the game. If we draw EE and SS is NOT out? Awesome, we just blow up a bunch of stuff. So in summation, yes, nonbo, no, never bites.
- in what other matchups do you board Stony Silence in? I expect it to be good vs tron (where you take out the EE), any maybe vs Lantern, where you also would leave EE+Silence in?
This statement is correct. Stony is for Tron, Affinity, Lantern, and random non-tier 1 decks like eggs. Use good judgement, but it is an excellent SB silver bullet. EE is in the maindeck because its not so much a silver bullet as a shotgun shell... nothing gets away clean.
- How do we beat Ad-Nauseum?
We put them on a very difficult clock with our better draws, but reactively we have to EE their prisms or blooms, but preferrably their unlifes, and fight the ad nauseum with countermagic and TKS. Oftentimes Ad Nauseum can just fold to a turn 3 TKS if you manage to pick off their Ad or an Angel's Grace because they won't have time to dig for the appropriate piece AND fight the beatdown. That being said I never really felt favored in this matchup.
Has anyone tested out cutting Matter Reshaper altogether, running 4 skyspawner, and using our flex spot to slot 2-3 metallic mimic? It seems like a vicious beating instead of the value play you get off of reshaper, but landing it then landing a skyspawner/drowner is a huge power boost that looks like it would transform you spawner from a 2/1 body with a ramp dude to a legit 3/2 delver-style beater with his 2/2 little bro. I think it helps that it also immediately puts displacers into the coveted "outside of bolt and inside of decent beats" 4/4 range. Furthermore you can displace additional counters onto your dudes later in the game for sweet value when you draw additional copies, where reshaper kinda would just be languishing. I also like that it would lower the curve a little and still gets snagged with stirrings.
I can honestly say I really don't rate stubborn denial at all. Perhaps I am being swayed by BBD's article 'Taking a Good Hard Look at Bant Eldrazi's Sideboard', but it just seems so unreliable to me. I would much rather Negate, Unified Will or a mix of the two.
Completely agree. I think stubborn should be cut from the SB completely.
I have tested it extensively in self vs self goldfish matches against Titanshift. My winrate in 26 hands with Stubborn denial is 54%. My winrate in 22 hands with Flashfreeze is 77%. (For reference, my baseline post-board winrate is 57% over 113 games). Perhaps I'm going at it the wrong way. Maybe it's worth Stubbing anything that I can, vs trying to save it to counter a scapeshift, pact, or crucial anger of the gods. However, I can confidently say that I feel comfortable keeping a hand with Flashfreeze and no acceleration compared to keeping a hand with Stubborn and no acceleration.
I tested disdainful stroke and it felt too narrow for tron and valakut. I think unified will is the best option right now.
People sometimes bring in stubborn denial against fair decks like Jund, Abzan, or Delver. I think this is a mistake. We're going to at best 1-for-1 them, MAYBE 2-for-1 in the rare case of countering removal against a smasher. Usually we're going to do this without significant tempo advantage since we can't easily keep open mana in the first 4 turns in the game. At worst, it's a completely dead draw from a losing position. I also think it's not worth keeping in against infect, but some people bring it in.
I really don't think we want to be on the countermagic game plan unless we absolutely have to (i.e. against 100% spell-based decks). We are not a deck built to keep open mana, especially BLUE mana which is our "4th" color.
______
Question: Has anyone tested gideon ally of zendikar? If the meta becomes more fair, might be worth considering as a 1-of or 2-of?
6 mana elspeth isn't main deck material. Gideon at the very least has 7 attacking power the turn after it comes down, so there's definitely an argument to play it over thought knot in a situation where you have to flat out race. it's also a better defensive play than reality smasher when trying to stabilize. gideon also can provide hasted damage if you ult it the turn it comes down, which only reality smasher can do otherwise. gideon is a fair card but it also advances our game plan of turn 5-6 beatdown
Bad topdeck, not worth playing over skyspawner on turn 2. Reshaper is better.
I mean, reshaper almost always feels like a bad topdeck too, costs one more (when you don't have a temple), and I feel like its always coming out whenever I need slots to sideboard. Take a second to think about all the times you board it out. I might have played the fourth skyspawner and cut the reshapers down to one, but with 4 displacer I almost always have something else I would rather spend the mana on. I tested out the mimic on Wednesday and it worked out fine, nothing too special, but it was pretty fantastic in the mirror. Also having 4 skyspawner turns out to be a huge advantage in the mirror as well (a matchup where you are almost always taking out reshapers). Even if I'm not playing mimic I think I want to try something else in the reshaper slot, just need to figure out what that is.
Another reason to try out Gideon is that we actually have the ability to +1 Gideon, flicker it, then +0 it. We can essentially activate both of his main abilities in one turn if we have a displacer.
sorry but that's just a bad idea, especially maindeck. it's too slow against valakut. against tron it does nothing against a resolved threat. you're better siding in more countermagic.
I'm moving back to 1-2 grafdiggers in the board. there's been a LOT of abzan coco and chord recently.
Hey guys! Been thinking about buying into the deck after playing it a ton online, problem is my local meta swings from a ton of control (which I know the deck does great against) to all burn and zoo, I hear mixed reviews on how this match up is and want to know what I can do to give myself the best chance in this meta
Im pretty new to Modern Bant Eldrazi (allthough im playing Legacy Eldrazi for about a year, and have played ur eldrazi during eldrazi winter in modern).
There are some things i just cant wrap my head around:
- A lot of people play 2x Stony Silence in the board (and 3 Engineered Explosives spread across main/side) -> doesnt that bite a lot of times? E.g. vs Affinity i see many lists playing all 5 cards, but if you drop Stony, your Explosives (as well as your Talisman) are dead. Is it still worth it?
- in what other matchups do you board Stony Silence in? I expect it to be good vs tron (where you take out the EE), any maybe vs Lantern, where you also would leave EE+Silence in?
Yes - it is def a problem and even worse if you play talismans. I actually like Pithing Needle and play 0-1 copies of Stony.
- How do we beat Ad-Nauseum?
You play Chalice of the Void - its how you beat a lot of decks you otherwise lose to or have a unfavoured matchup against..
I think Stony Silence is a good idea - Mox Opal is there only red mana source for Grapeshot - other good cards are Engineered Explosives (gets around silence) and Chalice on Zero (LOL!) - any additional chalices on 1 or 2..
Those decks are all weak matchups for Eldrazi - spell-based combo and go-wide. I don't think you're doing the deck any favors by testing it against such a skewed meta.
I would not maindeck blessed alliance. In many cases it just becomes a 2-mana removal spell against their worst creature, which is pretty bad. I also don't know when you would want to side in Gideon - if you're worried about fair matchups, I'd rather put in more Elspeths. I would definitely move EE to the MB. It is a "meta" pick but the truth is that the deck has a lot of unwinnable matchups without MB EE, such as Elves, Merfolk, Prison decks. The % you gain by moving EE to MB is well worth it, and it's also not a dead card in fair matchups (you also bring it in against Jund, Abzan, Grixis delver).
----
So I tested Lightning greaves and it sucks. It singlehanded won me 1 game vs Grixis delver but was a dead draw most of the time. Still looking to replace my 1-of spellskite slot - maybe a 4th drowner or dismember instead.
I have also been testing Unified will and like it so far. It's less narrow than Disdainful stroke. I really dislike Stubs - it's dead very often and I will definitely not keep a hand only on the basis of having a Stub.
Currently I am testing Nevermore. It's great against any spell-based deck that is dependent on a few cards. In my own testing it has frequently singlehandedly won games vs RG breach whenever I can cast it T3. I'd bring it against RG Breach, Ad nauseaum, Ensnaring Bridge decks, Blood moon decks. My main worry is the WW casting cost.
Here is my current SB:
1x Nevermore
2x Ratchet bomb (in addition to 3 MB EE)
2x RIP
2x Stony Silence
2x Worship
1x Chalice of the void
2x Flex slots (Depending on meta)
Thank you for your imput. I will update the guide and add your input on the sideboard.
GUInfect UMerfolk RW Burn GRWBU Humans GWUBant Eldrazi GR RG EldraziC Serum Powder EldraziC Eldrazi TronGB GB Rock
Legacy:
GUInfect
RGLands
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Pretty sure they run Leyline of Sanctity, no?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
What do u guys think?
Having 5x of cards that are awesome in a matchup > having 3 cards that are awesome in a matchup. If we run into affinity and can't use our explosives because we have silence out.... well awesome, we already won the game. If we draw EE and SS is NOT out? Awesome, we just blow up a bunch of stuff. So in summation, yes, nonbo, no, never bites.
This statement is correct. Stony is for Tron, Affinity, Lantern, and random non-tier 1 decks like eggs. Use good judgement, but it is an excellent SB silver bullet. EE is in the maindeck because its not so much a silver bullet as a shotgun shell... nothing gets away clean.
We put them on a very difficult clock with our better draws, but reactively we have to EE their prisms or blooms, but preferrably their unlifes, and fight the ad nauseum with countermagic and TKS. Oftentimes Ad Nauseum can just fold to a turn 3 TKS if you manage to pick off their Ad or an Angel's Grace because they won't have time to dig for the appropriate piece AND fight the beatdown. That being said I never really felt favored in this matchup.
Thoughts? Tests?
Completely agree. I think stubborn should be cut from the SB completely.
I have tested it extensively in self vs self goldfish matches against Titanshift. My winrate in 26 hands with Stubborn denial is 54%. My winrate in 22 hands with Flashfreeze is 77%. (For reference, my baseline post-board winrate is 57% over 113 games). Perhaps I'm going at it the wrong way. Maybe it's worth Stubbing anything that I can, vs trying to save it to counter a scapeshift, pact, or crucial anger of the gods. However, I can confidently say that I feel comfortable keeping a hand with Flashfreeze and no acceleration compared to keeping a hand with Stubborn and no acceleration.
I tested disdainful stroke and it felt too narrow for tron and valakut. I think unified will is the best option right now.
People sometimes bring in stubborn denial against fair decks like Jund, Abzan, or Delver. I think this is a mistake. We're going to at best 1-for-1 them, MAYBE 2-for-1 in the rare case of countering removal against a smasher. Usually we're going to do this without significant tempo advantage since we can't easily keep open mana in the first 4 turns in the game. At worst, it's a completely dead draw from a losing position. I also think it's not worth keeping in against infect, but some people bring it in.
I really don't think we want to be on the countermagic game plan unless we absolutely have to (i.e. against 100% spell-based decks). We are not a deck built to keep open mana, especially BLUE mana which is our "4th" color.
______
Question: Has anyone tested gideon ally of zendikar? If the meta becomes more fair, might be worth considering as a 1-of or 2-of?
I mean, reshaper almost always feels like a bad topdeck too, costs one more (when you don't have a temple), and I feel like its always coming out whenever I need slots to sideboard. Take a second to think about all the times you board it out. I might have played the fourth skyspawner and cut the reshapers down to one, but with 4 displacer I almost always have something else I would rather spend the mana on. I tested out the mimic on Wednesday and it worked out fine, nothing too special, but it was pretty fantastic in the mirror. Also having 4 skyspawner turns out to be a huge advantage in the mirror as well (a matchup where you are almost always taking out reshapers). Even if I'm not playing mimic I think I want to try something else in the reshaper slot, just need to figure out what that is.
I'm moving back to 1-2 grafdiggers in the board. there's been a LOT of abzan coco and chord recently.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver