@Xenphire
Before, you could not afford to fetch a basic swamp turn 1. With 6 discards in the deck, you have about a 54% chances of drawing at least 1 or more. The probability of having a fetch is 65% for one or more land; with a basic swamp included, it's about 70%. When you don't draw the fetch - 30% of the time - you are basically a turn behind in casting your spells and may not even have the proper mana available. When you do have the fetch, you will most likely fetch for a godless shrine turn 1. That's 3-damage you're taking to keep the mana stable.
Fastlands give you access to multiple mana that is also painless. Before, trying to access more than 1 black mana was not consistent unless you fetched 2 godless shrines a game. You either ran many Isolated Chapels or many filter lands (but not both) in order to access Liliana or Spectral Procession. While running 3-4 filterlands can solve the 3-drop problem, it had the disadvantage of being completely terrible as a turn 1 land. But combined with fastlands, now it is much better as they synergize perfectly.
Thanks for the clarification. Although the numbers make sense, they don't exactly represent what I feel I've had access to when playing. That is to say, I feel like I've always had enough duel lands available to easily play either/or. I actually ran Phyrexian Arena for a while, which is the same cost as Liliana and never had a problem playing it or Spectral Procession in succession. I'll have to do some testing with Concealed Courtyard and give more feedback once I have a coupleLiliana of the Veil to play with. Obviously feedback based on conjecture only goes so far. I'm excited to test her and see how it works out, because I've been inclined to want to try her for a while and feel a bit more justified in dropping dollars doing so with the discussion here. (I know, I know - no budget discussion, but it's more to do with potentially spending unnecessary money on a card that could have ended up not playing well)
My meta is full of aggro. Goblins/Burn, Naya Zoo, Affinity and so on. I think I've only played against one Grixis Control ever and I grinded it out for so long he gave me the 2-0 for navigating around his plays.
1) It isn't condescending if it is true: she is cute with that black border and that hair. No one has thus far demonstrated that the statement: it doesn't forward the board state, is inaccurate. We know, and it is amply demonstrated, that Liliana of the Veil can put off opponents. I never said that it couldn't. My point remains: I want what Lili does and something that will move the game forward and not keep it where it is. Lili on the battlefield keeps the opponent back, you can argue that it forwards the board state, but she isn't a "threat" in the same way a creature is a threat. That is my definition of forwarding the board state. I have played with Lili too and I found her to be a win more where I felt (and continue to play) with other cards in her place. She doesn't fit my play style and I am not impressed with her. I agree to disagree.
2) Bolt is great. Bolt is awesome. Running red means that you run bolt. Absolutely. Best in the format? I can agree to disagree. But, we are comparing bolt with W/B. Yes, the contrasts exist. However, my points remains that we have options within WB without running a third color and making the mana base worse. Are we talking about percents in the single digits for making the base worse? Yes. But some of us have run and sometimes continue to run Mardu and still have problems with the mana base. You aren't the only person here to have run BWr. My point is that not everyone, nor every meta, wants the red splash.
3) Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't warrant attitude. Just because I don't agree doesn't make me the enemy. Just because I reference *****ty cards doesn't make my thought less relevant. It also doesn't make me stupid. I don't disagree with bolt or your thoughts on Mardu. My point is that this is the BW tokens primer, not the Mardu Tokens forum. The point at which we are talking about running cards that require double red in the 75, bolt + helix+ who knows what other combinations to improve the deck moves the deck out of BW territory. The title of the forum is BW tokens, not BWx. If the group consensus is that there is a need to move the deck in that direction, then we need to put it out there or another forum needs to be created.
@Xenphire Grixis control is slightly favorable but I would say it's more difficult than the other Uxx control variants. Mainly, their threats are cheap and dangerous without immediate removals and their Creeping Tarpits also demand immediate answers. If they run Liliana the Last Hope, that's also a huge problem. But the delver variant is very favorable for us.
@michaelvogler If we use your definition of advancing the board-state, I would agree. And I would also agree with you that Liliana does often slow down games that does not need to be slowed down. However, this is not entirely a bad thing. On the other hand, games where she is good, she is easily what wins you the game. This is why I favor going more "control" rather than "midrange" even though taking out 2 spectral processions doesn't necessarily make this archetype feel THAT different.
I never resorted to direct attacks so I don't know why you are getting defensive. I said at worst "I think you are severely underestimating the difference between 1-mana and 2-mana removal" since this was obviously the comparison you were making.
I just want to see some substantial arguments against red. What are the options in BW that completely undermine the splash idea? Flaying tendrils vs Anger of the Gods is definitely a good one that I overlooked. We know the forum is called "BW tokens" but I don't see the point in limiting the discussion to cards and builds that's literally been discussed a million times. The deck's strength and weakness is already known and it's not as if we haven't extensively discussed the BW options available to us. Let's not forget that the best Jund deck at some point in time went 4-colors and jammed Lingering Souls and Ajani into the deck. Extra colors are worth discussing in improving the deck (unless this is not what it's all about?).
2 fetid heaths and 2 isolated chapel doesn't solve the turn 1 black source problem. Let me re-clarify that putting spectral + liliana in the same deck wasn't a big issue at all, only that fastlands do make a noticeable improvement to the mana-base further.
I think the issue is that the red "splash" discussion is taking over and pushing any talk of the straight BW lists out. Many of the BWr lists being discussed recently are actually more RW with a black splash, this alone isn't at issue, but when near every reply to questions or requests for help with straight BW Tokens is "add red" there is a problem.
The other factor is that BWr/Mardu has no proven competitive advantage over BW, in fact in the last couple months several straight BW lists have made Top 8s of smaller CREL events and Day 2s of Opens and GPs. No BWr/Mardu lists can claim this.
Now on another topic, I'm gonna test a Damping Matrix sideboard, anyone know if it has been tried before?
I think the issue is that the red "splash" discussion is taking over and pushing any talk of the straight BW lists out. Many of the BWr lists being discussed recently are actually more RW with a black splash, this alone isn't at issue, but when near every reply to questions or requests for help with straight BW Tokens is "add red" there is a problem.
The other factor is that BWr/Mardu has no proven competitive advantage over BW, in fact in the last couple months several straight BW lists have made Top 8s of smaller CREL events and Day 2s of Opens and GPs. No BWr/Mardu lists can claim this.
Now on another topic, I'm gonna test a Damping Matrix sideboard, anyone know if it has been tried before?
Outside of this forum, there is no discussion of red splashes. Popularity largely determines success. Amulet bloom was tier 2 when it was banned but it easily had the highest winning potential. Add this to the fact that bw tokens is not a popular archetype as is merfolk, infect, and affinity. If a deck runs Mardu, it is always a more typical (bad) nahiri or midrange style decks.
When people come to this forum for help, often the problems they face are inherent to the deck's design. At best we can offer some sideboard plans already discussed. I never said a red splash is mandatory but I do put the idea out there as it does in fact greatly solve the wide aggro matches. Other splashes are also welcome for discussion although I see more cons than pros with the other colors.
Damping matrix is stony silence + narrow pithing needle. Usually the second ability is not good enough to justify 3 mana sinve creature effects tend to be ETB or constant rather than activated.
I think the issue is that the red "splash" discussion is taking over and pushing any talk of the straight BW lists out. Many of the BWr lists being discussed recently are actually more RW with a black splash, this alone isn't at issue, but when near every reply to questions or requests for help with straight BW Tokens is "add red" there is a problem.
The other factor is that BWr/Mardu has no proven competitive advantage over BW, in fact in the last couple months several straight BW lists have made Top 8s of smaller CREL events and Day 2s of Opens and GPs. No BWr/Mardu lists can claim this.
Now on another topic, I'm gonna test a Damping Matrix sideboard, anyone know if it has been tried before?
To add to jongsl5's response above, I don't see what the issue of discussing a Mardu build is given how stagnate the archetype has become. We very seldom get new toys to work with and thus besides tweaking some knobs here and there we don't have much to move forward with this deck and people seem to have given up and settled on it being a sub-T2 deck. I've actually enjoyed the discussion of splashing Red and going Mardu because it's breathed some fresh air into what had become a stale topic due to the nature of the deck. Selfless Spirit is the best thing we've had since Sorin, Solemn Visitor and the unbanning of Bitterblossom but other than the most obvious inclusions we very rarely get anything worth looking at that can improve the deck's position in the meta. I haven't seen anyone suggest anything that can really help this deck outside of cute sideboard tweaks (often worse, such as Damping Matrix, imo) that will never have enough coverage to answer everything sufficiently. If anything the Mardu discussion has opened up a new line of discussion and is actually attempting to look at how to make the deck able to compete better. If that's somehow a bad thing, whoever is reading can check out the other 70 something pages of the thread for a circular discussion on the same cards and nearly same builds.
Also, the idea of Mardu and Liliana excited me enough to actually start posting instead of occasionally checking the thread, being bored out of my skull with the lack of development and repeat discussion then closing it and moving on. Now here I am more interested in testing some new ideas and providing feedback and participating in discussion. So, take that as you will.
I also enjoy discussing about tweaking with splashes. As it has been said, BW itself has been largely covered in the other 70 pages. Whether BWr is better or not, this can only be answered by actually playing it. For the next month I will be trying the red splash and see the results for myself. The list I am playing is with 4 lilis -going with just 8 generators (plus sorin) seems weird, but I like to take a control stand on tokens.
There are a few things I am quite excited about a red splash. First, of course, is Lightning Bolt -another 1cmc removal will make our deck much more resilient in the first 3 turns. I'm also looking forward to the SB options. Being able to play Engineered explosives for 3 is definitely an improvement; and another SB card that I will be trying is Anger of the Gods. For the people who play Anger, is it hard to get RR on the third turn? Also, would you advice playing Graven Cairns?
I am also going for the red splash, though no lili. Just took this to a 3-1 finish at FNM at a fairly competitive shop. Opponents were on BW Death and Taxes, Dredge (bridge/gargadon variant), Merfolk, Naya Burn. Would have been 4-0, but I made a misplay that cost me game 3 vs. burn in the 4th round. Anyway:
Pretty happy with the deck overall, but there are some changes coming. Secure the wastes is definitely first on the chopping block, though I'll probably keep a singleton.
I also enjoy discussing about tweaking with splashes. As it has been said, BW itself has been largely covered in the other 70 pages. Whether BWr is better or not, this can only be answered by actually playing it. For the next month I will be trying the red splash and see the results for myself. The list I am playing is with 4 lilis -going with just 8 generators (plus sorin) seems weird, but I like to take a control stand on tokens.
There are a few things I am quite excited about a red splash. First, of course, is Lightning Bolt -another 1cmc removal will make our deck much more resilient in the first 3 turns. I'm also looking forward to the SB options. Being able to play Engineered explosives for 3 is definitely an improvement; and another SB card that I will be trying is Anger of the Gods. For the people who play Anger, is it hard to get RR on the third turn? Also, would you advice playing Graven Cairns?
I was proposing Anger of the Gods in the side until I realized Flaying Tendrils is much better, as it is in our more dominant color of black rather than red. Even Jund players are starting to choose the latter over the former, as killing x/3 creatures is not a big deal for any deck with access to lightning bolt. By the way, it also kills Etched Champion and Master of Waves - a pretty significant advantage over Anger.
As such, it is just better to run 3-4 Fetid Heath over any copies of Graven Cairns. I currently recommend 3. I use 6 fetches, 3 shambling vents, 6 fastlands (3 blackcleave, 2 inspiring vantage, 1 concealed courtyard), and the rest should be self-explanatory. The mana base is very consistent.
I also enjoy discussing about tweaking with splashes. As it has been said, BW itself has been largely covered in the other 70 pages. Whether BWr is better or not, this can only be answered by actually playing it. For the next month I will be trying the red splash and see the results for myself. The list I am playing is with 4 lilis -going with just 8 generators (plus sorin) seems weird, but I like to take a control stand on tokens.
There are a few things I am quite excited about a red splash. First, of course, is Lightning Bolt -another 1cmc removal will make our deck much more resilient in the first 3 turns. I'm also looking forward to the SB options. Being able to play Engineered explosives for 3 is definitely an improvement; and another SB card that I will be trying is Anger of the Gods. For the people who play Anger, is it hard to get RR on the third turn? Also, would you advice playing Graven Cairns?
I was proposing Anger of the Gods in the side until I realized Flaying Tendrils is much better, as it is in our more dominant color of black rather than red. Even Jund players are starting to choose the latter over the former, as killing x/3 creatures is not a big deal for any deck with access to lightning bolt. By the way, it also kills Etched Champion and Master of Waves - a pretty significant advantage over Anger.
As such, it is just better to run 3-4 Fetid Heath over any copies of Graven Cairns. I currently recommend 3. I use 6 fetches, 3 shambling vents, 6 fastlands (3 blackcleave, 2 inspiring vantage, 1 concealed courtyard), and the rest should be self-explanatory. The mana base is very consistent.
I have a question about your mana base, why are you running 2 inspiring vantage over 1 concealed courtyard? It seems to me like you are prioritizing red. I currently go with 3 concealed and 1 blackcleave. I know I want to play my discard spell on turn one for sure, but I haven't tested enough to say whether this is consistent for turns 2, 3 and 4. I am also not the biggest fan of filter lands -I just run 1-2 Fetid Heath. And 8 fetches. About the filter lands -it's nothing personal, but since I am running 2 Ghost Quarters (meta tech), 2 Vaults of the Archangel, and 1-2 Shambling Vents, I don't want to see too many combinations of those with filter lands in my opening hand.
@ashley25746: 3-1 is pretty good, congrats. How did it go against Merfolk? Could you explain the match a bit together with your decisions?
Good question. This is to reduce the probability of me having to fetch for a red source (if I do, it's always a shockland). On the other hand, basic swamps and basic plains are always more accessible. This is why Blackcleave Cliffs is still the most important fastland, despite producing only the minority colors. Also, I only run 1 concealed courtyard as I run 3 Shambling vents anyways.
Filter lands are phenomenal. They are only bad when you draw two as your only lands, which is very unlikely. They are what makes casting Liliana and Spectral so painless, though fastlands have also improved this aspect.
With 4 colorless sources, you definitely can't afford to run the filterlands. But personally, I think that's way too many for this deck if you are running either Spectral Procession or Liliana of the Veil. That's about a 32% chance of drawing one and a 40% chance of drawing one or more in your opening hand.
I never felt great about the ghost quarters. It delays Scapeshift players by turn at most and is still a 1-for-2 against Tron/ Eldrazi. I love Vault of the Archangel and I still had to cut it for the mana base to be extremely consistent.
I have a question about your mana base, why are you running 2 inspiring vantage over 1 concealed courtyard? It seems to me like you are prioritizing red. I currently go with 3 concealed and 1 blackcleave. I know I want to play my discard spell on turn one for sure, but I haven't tested enough to say whether this is consistent for turns 2, 3 and 4. I am also not the biggest fan of filter lands -I just run 1-2 Fetid Heath. And 8 fetches. About the filter lands -it's nothing personal, but since I am running 2 Ghost Quarters (meta tech), 2 Vaults of the Archangel, and 1-2 Shambling Vents, I don't want to see too many combinations of those with filter lands in my opening hand.
@ashley25746: 3-1 is pretty good, congrats. How did it go against Merfolk? Could you explain the match a bit together with your decisions?
To be honest, I got a bit lucky vs. merfolk. Suffice it to say that it goes a long way when you can gain 20 or 30 life with vault of the archangel and/or sorin, solemn visitor.
Jongsl5 - I saw your comments on Collective Brutality in Jund on reddit. Does your opinion on the card still stand? I don't play jund or tokens and I'm currently playing a single Duress in my sideboard in addition to 4 Thoughtseize, but I'm considering switching it to collective brutality and when searching I came across your comments and they make sense. What I'm asking is, do you think duress would be smarter than collective brutality in the side? I'm trying to keep my sb as less narrow as possible and even though CB appears flexible, the way you described it made it out that it was actually more narrow than people tend to think in terms of what match ups it's good against. I'm typically looking to bring duress or collective brutality in against control, combo, tron, burn, tokens faeries off the top of my head but even just mentioning faeries and tokens kind of makes me want to stick with duress due to turn 2 bitterblossom. Could you please share your current thoughts on the matter?
Please discuss subjects that dont have to do with tokens in the correct deck thread or over messages. Thank you ~Lantern
Jongsl5 - I saw your comments on Collective Brutality in Jund on reddit. Does your opinion on the card still stand? I don't play jund or tokens and I'm currently playing a single Duress in my sideboard in addition to 4 Thoughtseize, but I'm considering switching it to collective brutality and when searching I came across your comments and they make sense. What I'm asking is, do you think duress would be smarter than collective brutality in the side? I'm trying to keep my sb as less narrow as possible and even though CB appears flexible, the way you described it made it out that it was actually more narrow than people tend to think in terms of what match ups it's good against. I'm typically looking to bring duress or collective brutality in against control, combo, tron, burn, tokens faeries off the top of my head but even just mentioning faeries and tokens kind of makes me want to stick with duress due to turn 2 bitterblossom. Could you please share your current thoughts on the matter?
Please discuss subjects that dont have to do with tokens in the correct deck thread or over messages. Thank you ~Lantern
I think this is worth answering (again) in the tokens thread so I'll answer here, rather than through direct message.
I still stand by my opinion. In the side, Duress will have far more relevant applications as it hits artifacts, planeswalkers, and enchantments. Against the combo decks, this is far more versatile than CB. If your deck matches poorly with Infect/ Burn, feel free to jam as many as you like in the sideboard but otherwise it's not powerful enough for 2-mana and as a sideboard option.
Over the next week or so, I expect we will see an additional update of the Tokens primer to the effect that we will not include splashes.
Splash discussion has taken over the entire thread. I was remiss in dealing with this several weeks ago when it started, but it is becoming clear that we are discussing two different deck archetypes. The example that comes to my mind is the difference between Grixis Control with and without ultimatum; BW tokens is being treated as two decks: one with bolt back up and one without. The discussion of the deck type with bolt is overtaking any relation to the original BW tokens deck and is, in my opinion, closer to an established Mardu midrange deck than it is BW tokens (see a primer for Mardu tokens here: Mardu
This does not mean that I think red splash is bad. Nor is the issue just related to lightning bolt, as there are other design differences that are coming up in the discussion that are substantially different from some of the original BW tokens builds. What it does mean is that the discussion has made clear that the time has come to establish a separate Mardu tokens primer. It may come about at a later date that the two archetypes merge again.
If there are questions or concerns, please let me know via private message.
Over the next week or so, I expect we will see an additional update of the Tokens primer to the effect that we will not include splashes.
Splash discussion has taken over the entire thread. I was remiss in dealing with this several weeks ago when it started, but it is becoming clear that we are discussing two different deck archetypes. The example that comes to my mind is the difference between Grixis Control with and without ultimatum; BW tokens is being treated as two decks: one with bolt back up and one without. The discussion of the deck type with bolt is overtaking any relation to the original BW tokens deck and is, in my opinion, closer to an established Mardu midrange deck than it is BW tokens (see a primer for Mardu tokens here: Mardu
This does not mean that I think red splash is bad. Nor is the issue just related to lightning bolt, as there are other design differences that are coming up in the discussion that are substantially different from some of the original BW tokens builds. What it does mean is that the discussion has made clear that the time has come to establish a separate Mardu tokens primer. It may come about at a later date that the two archetypes merge again.
If there are questions or concerns, please let me know via private message.
Not trying to sound argumentative but I just don't see how most of the red-splashed variants discussed is closer to Mardu Midrange to BW Tokens. Let me break it down:
1) Typically, the red brings 4 lightning bolt and 2 lightning helix. It keeps the rest of the BW token shell. Compare this to Mardu midrange: dark confidant, Nahiri, wall of omen, terminate, Anger of the Gods (main), Young Pyromancer, Kolaghan's Command, etc. That's a totally different deck.
What do we replace these cards with? Mostly 1-2 lands, 2 Auriok Champions, and some personal preference card (Timely Reinforcement, Secure the Wastes, etc.). Not exactly the most fundamental parts of the token shell.
The red splash is really not that radical and only adds enough to improve the deck's desperately needed early interaction. To support this further, let's look at BGx. The deck essentially uses red mainly for lightning bolt and Kolaghan's Command (terminate is replaceable). Yes the deck at some point in time ran Bloodbraid Elf and Huntmasters, etc. before Kolaghan's Command. But none of the those cards are worth a splash in themselves. The first two cards are the deal breaker. Due to Blackcleave Cliffs and the utility of Raging Ravine, the red splash was good enough as it provided the deck with another efficient 1-for-1 value card [bolt].
2) If the variants include token producers like young pyromancer/ monastery mentor or any creatures, I agree this demands a separate thread as these variants are totally different from BW tokens. But it seems as though these variants are dying down and moving over to the Mardu thread. When was the last time such a deck was discussed? A while back some people experimented with Purphoros though no one complained about it then.
Thanks for the clarification. Although the numbers make sense, they don't exactly represent what I feel I've had access to when playing. That is to say, I feel like I've always had enough duel lands available to easily play either/or. I actually ran Phyrexian Arena for a while, which is the same cost as Liliana and never had a problem playing it or Spectral Procession in succession. I'll have to do some testing with Concealed Courtyard and give more feedback once I have a coupleLiliana of the Veil to play with. Obviously feedback based on conjecture only goes so far. I'm excited to test her and see how it works out, because I've been inclined to want to try her for a while and feel a bit more justified in dropping dollars doing so with the discussion here. (I know, I know - no budget discussion, but it's more to do with potentially spending unnecessary money on a card that could have ended up not playing well)
My meta is full of aggro. Goblins/Burn, Naya Zoo, Affinity and so on. I think I've only played against one Grixis Control ever and I grinded it out for so long he gave me the 2-0 for navigating around his plays.
(Also known as Xenphire)
2) Bolt is great. Bolt is awesome. Running red means that you run bolt. Absolutely. Best in the format? I can agree to disagree. But, we are comparing bolt with W/B. Yes, the contrasts exist. However, my points remains that we have options within WB without running a third color and making the mana base worse. Are we talking about percents in the single digits for making the base worse? Yes. But some of us have run and sometimes continue to run Mardu and still have problems with the mana base. You aren't the only person here to have run BWr. My point is that not everyone, nor every meta, wants the red splash.
3) Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't warrant attitude. Just because I don't agree doesn't make me the enemy. Just because I reference *****ty cards doesn't make my thought less relevant. It also doesn't make me stupid. I don't disagree with bolt or your thoughts on Mardu. My point is that this is the BW tokens primer, not the Mardu Tokens forum. The point at which we are talking about running cards that require double red in the 75, bolt + helix+ who knows what other combinations to improve the deck moves the deck out of BW territory. The title of the forum is BW tokens, not BWx. If the group consensus is that there is a need to move the deck in that direction, then we need to put it out there or another forum needs to be created.
@michaelvogler If we use your definition of advancing the board-state, I would agree. And I would also agree with you that Liliana does often slow down games that does not need to be slowed down. However, this is not entirely a bad thing. On the other hand, games where she is good, she is easily what wins you the game. This is why I favor going more "control" rather than "midrange" even though taking out 2 spectral processions doesn't necessarily make this archetype feel THAT different.
I never resorted to direct attacks so I don't know why you are getting defensive. I said at worst "I think you are severely underestimating the difference between 1-mana and 2-mana removal" since this was obviously the comparison you were making.
I just want to see some substantial arguments against red. What are the options in BW that completely undermine the splash idea? Flaying tendrils vs Anger of the Gods is definitely a good one that I overlooked. We know the forum is called "BW tokens" but I don't see the point in limiting the discussion to cards and builds that's literally been discussed a million times. The deck's strength and weakness is already known and it's not as if we haven't extensively discussed the BW options available to us. Let's not forget that the best Jund deck at some point in time went 4-colors and jammed Lingering Souls and Ajani into the deck. Extra colors are worth discussing in improving the deck (unless this is not what it's all about?).
2 fetid heaths and 2 isolated chapel doesn't solve the turn 1 black source problem. Let me re-clarify that putting spectral + liliana in the same deck wasn't a big issue at all, only that fastlands do make a noticeable improvement to the mana-base further.
The other factor is that BWr/Mardu has no proven competitive advantage over BW, in fact in the last couple months several straight BW lists have made Top 8s of smaller CREL events and Day 2s of Opens and GPs. No BWr/Mardu lists can claim this.
Now on another topic, I'm gonna test a Damping Matrix sideboard, anyone know if it has been tried before?
Outside of this forum, there is no discussion of red splashes. Popularity largely determines success. Amulet bloom was tier 2 when it was banned but it easily had the highest winning potential. Add this to the fact that bw tokens is not a popular archetype as is merfolk, infect, and affinity. If a deck runs Mardu, it is always a more typical (bad) nahiri or midrange style decks.
When people come to this forum for help, often the problems they face are inherent to the deck's design. At best we can offer some sideboard plans already discussed. I never said a red splash is mandatory but I do put the idea out there as it does in fact greatly solve the wide aggro matches. Other splashes are also welcome for discussion although I see more cons than pros with the other colors.
Damping matrix is stony silence + narrow pithing needle. Usually the second ability is not good enough to justify 3 mana sinve creature effects tend to be ETB or constant rather than activated.
To add to jongsl5's response above, I don't see what the issue of discussing a Mardu build is given how stagnate the archetype has become. We very seldom get new toys to work with and thus besides tweaking some knobs here and there we don't have much to move forward with this deck and people seem to have given up and settled on it being a sub-T2 deck. I've actually enjoyed the discussion of splashing Red and going Mardu because it's breathed some fresh air into what had become a stale topic due to the nature of the deck. Selfless Spirit is the best thing we've had since Sorin, Solemn Visitor and the unbanning of Bitterblossom but other than the most obvious inclusions we very rarely get anything worth looking at that can improve the deck's position in the meta. I haven't seen anyone suggest anything that can really help this deck outside of cute sideboard tweaks (often worse, such as Damping Matrix, imo) that will never have enough coverage to answer everything sufficiently. If anything the Mardu discussion has opened up a new line of discussion and is actually attempting to look at how to make the deck able to compete better. If that's somehow a bad thing, whoever is reading can check out the other 70 something pages of the thread for a circular discussion on the same cards and nearly same builds.
Also, the idea of Mardu and Liliana excited me enough to actually start posting instead of occasionally checking the thread, being bored out of my skull with the lack of development and repeat discussion then closing it and moving on. Now here I am more interested in testing some new ideas and providing feedback and participating in discussion. So, take that as you will.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I am also going for the red splash, though no lili. Just took this to a 3-1 finish at FNM at a fairly competitive shop. Opponents were on BW Death and Taxes, Dredge (bridge/gargadon variant), Merfolk, Naya Burn. Would have been 4-0, but I made a misplay that cost me game 3 vs. burn in the 4th round. Anyway:
4 spectral procession
3 bitterblossom
3 secure the wastes
4 intangible virtue
3 sorin, solemn visitor
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
1 anguished unmaking
4 lightning bolt
2 lightning helix
3 concealed courtyard
2 godless shrine
2 shambling vent
4 marsh flats
4 arid mesa
1 swamp
1 vault of the archangel
1 blood crypt
1 sacred foundry
2 clifftop retreat
2 plains
Pretty happy with the deck overall, but there are some changes coming. Secure the wastes is definitely first on the chopping block, though I'll probably keep a singleton.
I was proposing Anger of the Gods in the side until I realized Flaying Tendrils is much better, as it is in our more dominant color of black rather than red. Even Jund players are starting to choose the latter over the former, as killing x/3 creatures is not a big deal for any deck with access to lightning bolt. By the way, it also kills Etched Champion and Master of Waves - a pretty significant advantage over Anger.
As such, it is just better to run 3-4 Fetid Heath over any copies of Graven Cairns. I currently recommend 3. I use 6 fetches, 3 shambling vents, 6 fastlands (3 blackcleave, 2 inspiring vantage, 1 concealed courtyard), and the rest should be self-explanatory. The mana base is very consistent.
Good question. This is to reduce the probability of me having to fetch for a red source (if I do, it's always a shockland). On the other hand, basic swamps and basic plains are always more accessible. This is why Blackcleave Cliffs is still the most important fastland, despite producing only the minority colors. Also, I only run 1 concealed courtyard as I run 3 Shambling vents anyways.
Filter lands are phenomenal. They are only bad when you draw two as your only lands, which is very unlikely. They are what makes casting Liliana and Spectral so painless, though fastlands have also improved this aspect.
With 4 colorless sources, you definitely can't afford to run the filterlands. But personally, I think that's way too many for this deck if you are running either Spectral Procession or Liliana of the Veil. That's about a 32% chance of drawing one and a 40% chance of drawing one or more in your opening hand.
I never felt great about the ghost quarters. It delays Scapeshift players by turn at most and is still a 1-for-2 against Tron/ Eldrazi. I love Vault of the Archangel and I still had to cut it for the mana base to be extremely consistent.
To be honest, I got a bit lucky vs. merfolk. Suffice it to say that it goes a long way when you can gain 20 or 30 life with vault of the archangel and/or sorin, solemn visitor.
Please discuss subjects that dont have to do with tokens in the correct deck thread or over messages. Thank you ~Lantern
I think this is worth answering (again) in the tokens thread so I'll answer here, rather than through direct message.
I still stand by my opinion. In the side, Duress will have far more relevant applications as it hits artifacts, planeswalkers, and enchantments. Against the combo decks, this is far more versatile than CB. If your deck matches poorly with Infect/ Burn, feel free to jam as many as you like in the sideboard but otherwise it's not powerful enough for 2-mana and as a sideboard option.
Splash discussion has taken over the entire thread. I was remiss in dealing with this several weeks ago when it started, but it is becoming clear that we are discussing two different deck archetypes. The example that comes to my mind is the difference between Grixis Control with and without ultimatum; BW tokens is being treated as two decks: one with bolt back up and one without. The discussion of the deck type with bolt is overtaking any relation to the original BW tokens deck and is, in my opinion, closer to an established Mardu midrange deck than it is BW tokens (see a primer for Mardu tokens here: Mardu
This does not mean that I think red splash is bad. Nor is the issue just related to lightning bolt, as there are other design differences that are coming up in the discussion that are substantially different from some of the original BW tokens builds. What it does mean is that the discussion has made clear that the time has come to establish a separate Mardu tokens primer. It may come about at a later date that the two archetypes merge again.
If there are questions or concerns, please let me know via private message.
Not trying to sound argumentative but I just don't see how most of the red-splashed variants discussed is closer to Mardu Midrange to BW Tokens. Let me break it down:
1) Typically, the red brings 4 lightning bolt and 2 lightning helix. It keeps the rest of the BW token shell. Compare this to Mardu midrange: dark confidant, Nahiri, wall of omen, terminate, Anger of the Gods (main), Young Pyromancer, Kolaghan's Command, etc. That's a totally different deck.
What do we replace these cards with? Mostly 1-2 lands, 2 Auriok Champions, and some personal preference card (Timely Reinforcement, Secure the Wastes, etc.). Not exactly the most fundamental parts of the token shell.
The red splash is really not that radical and only adds enough to improve the deck's desperately needed early interaction. To support this further, let's look at BGx. The deck essentially uses red mainly for lightning bolt and Kolaghan's Command (terminate is replaceable). Yes the deck at some point in time ran Bloodbraid Elf and Huntmasters, etc. before Kolaghan's Command. But none of the those cards are worth a splash in themselves. The first two cards are the deal breaker. Due to Blackcleave Cliffs and the utility of Raging Ravine, the red splash was good enough as it provided the deck with another efficient 1-for-1 value card [bolt].
2) If the variants include token producers like young pyromancer/ monastery mentor or any creatures, I agree this demands a separate thread as these variants are totally different from BW tokens. But it seems as though these variants are dying down and moving over to the Mardu thread. When was the last time such a deck was discussed? A while back some people experimented with Purphoros though no one complained about it then.
No counterargument I see. Regardless, we will respect your wishes and keep the discussion free of any off-color suggestion.