I am new to this deck and very interested in what an optimal manabase will look like given the new B/W Fastland. I'm currently running the standard manabase (minus the heaths) and deck (RtA over BB) posted on page 1. Any suggestions from the community would be great!
Sorin LOI vs Sorin SV is something that most people agree upon I presume? Could we have a little debate about it, or maybe a section?
I would say it's highly dependent how your deck works. It depends if I'm interested in the Emblem or if a single lifelink creature is enough regarding LoI.
Usually i prefer the SV due to I can give a lot more creatures lifelink and +1/0 which makes more impact on that swing. Also Sorin SV then goes up to 5. And I value a 2/2 flying higher than a 1/1 lifelink.
Sorin LOI vs Sorin SV is something that most people agree upon I presume? Could we have a little debate about it, or maybe a section?
I would say it's highly dependent how your deck works. It depends if I'm interested in the Emblem or if a single lifelink creature is enough regarding LoI.
Usually i prefer the SV due to I can give a lot more creatures lifelink and +1/0 which makes more impact on that swing. Also Sorin SV then goes up to 5. And I value a 2/2 flying higher than a 1/1 lifelink.
It depends on the matchup and what the circumstances are. Yes a 2/2 is bigger than a 1/1 but odds are likely that if you minus SV you will lose him since his loyalty drops so low. LOI does a better job advancing the board state than SV does. SV also isn't a great top deck if you're behind as you'll likely minus him to get a token and then he will die (not always, but this is my experience) with the new fastland I might test LOI again since we won't be damaging ourselves as much.
Sorin LOI vs Sorin SV is something that most people agree upon I presume? Could we have a little debate about it, or maybe a section?
I would say it's highly dependent how your deck works. It depends if I'm interested in the Emblem or if a single lifelink creature is enough regarding LoI.
Usually i prefer the SV due to I can give a lot more creatures lifelink and +1/0 which makes more impact on that swing. Also Sorin SV then goes up to 5. And I value a 2/2 flying higher than a 1/1 lifelink.
It depends on the matchup and what the circumstances are. Yes a 2/2 is bigger than a 1/1 but odds are likely that if you minus SV you will lose him since his loyalty drops so low. LOI does a better job advancing the board state than SV does. SV also isn't a great top deck if you're behind as you'll likely minus him to get a token and then he will die (not always, but this is my experience) with the new fastland I might test LOI again since we won't be damaging ourselves as much.
The biggest reason to run Sorin SV is for his +1. Honestly, his +1 is borderline broken in a token build. With just three creatures, you are guaranteed to get at least 6 life. With virtue, potentially more as the lifelink lasts until the next turn. The magnitude of the effect is far more substantial in practice than on paper. Even when it dies, you gain enough tempo out of it. Your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources just to kill it and just one attack sets them back big time. Its -2 isn't too shabby and frankly, not as bad as I thought.
LOI is a more defensive planeswalker but it is not necessarily better at developing the board. If you have zero creatures, neither LOI or SV will be great against an aggro build... you can then blame luck or poor deck building choices. In a typical board of 2-3 creatures, SV is almost always better than LOI and by a significant margin. The degree of magnitude between the life you'll gain from a 1/1 lifelink token vs a pumped lifelink attack is enormous. I like LOI's -2 ability a lot but the big deal breaker is that its +1 is just not good enough for 4-mana in most scenarios. Personally, I find Gideon AZ similar but usually better at what it does.
When SV first came out, some people doubted it would surpass LOI. The only reason it sees more play now is because it has established itself to be far better as people started testing it.
Anyone tried playing with Authority of the Consuls against burn/aggro as a kind of hybrid imposing-sovereign-meets-auriok-champion?
It only triggers on opponent ETB, but it costs one less, is an enchantment (though might be worse than champion's protection), and slows them down. Maybe could help in Raise the Alarm versions of tokens so you can get extra damage through earlier? Or in mirror match-ups?
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Also, thoughts on [Eliminate the Competition]? At first glance I thought it might be useful, but now it seems quite the opposite. Gotta be better ways to spend 5 mana, right?
I've discussed the first card in detail already. But no both the cards are not great.
I tried looking for your post on Authority, but only found one post wherein you pointed out it was a terrible one to top deck later game. That's a good point, but is topdecking a champion that great either? I'm asking genuinely, as I'm new to BW Tokens and not super familiar of common metas.
Also, you're spot on re: SV vs LOI. I had LOI initially, and with SV, the fact that his +1 lasts until your next turn makes a world of difference (especially with IT on the field)
I tried looking for your post on Authority, but only found one post wherein you pointed out it was a terrible one to top deck later game. That's a good point, but is topdecking a champion that great either? I'm asking genuinely, as I'm new to BW Tokens and not super familiar of common metas.
Also, you're spot on re: SV vs LOI. I had LOI initially, and with SV, the fact that his +1 lasts until your next turn makes a world of difference (especially with IT on the field)
No auriok champion is also a terrible top deck except against a few decks. I don't run them myself unless there is a specific meta I am preparing for. Authority is pretty bad unless you run 3-4 to see them early, and even then, there are better anti-aggro cards for both the main and side.
Sorin LOI vs Sorin SV is something that most people agree upon I presume? Could we have a little debate about it, or maybe a section?
I would say it's highly dependent how your deck works. It depends if I'm interested in the Emblem or if a single lifelink creature is enough regarding LoI.
Usually i prefer the SV due to I can give a lot more creatures lifelink and +1/0 which makes more impact on that swing. Also Sorin SV then goes up to 5. And I value a 2/2 flying higher than a 1/1 lifelink.
It depends on the matchup and what the circumstances are. Yes a 2/2 is bigger than a 1/1 but odds are likely that if you minus SV you will lose him since his loyalty drops so low. LOI does a better job advancing the board state than SV does. SV also isn't a great top deck if you're behind as you'll likely minus him to get a token and then he will die (not always, but this is my experience) with the new fastland I might test LOI again since we won't be damaging ourselves as much.
The biggest reason to run Sorin SV is for his +1. Honestly, his +1 is borderline broken in a token build. With just three creatures, you are guaranteed to get at least 6 life. With virtue, potentially more as the lifelink lasts until the next turn. The magnitude of the effect is far more substantial in practice than on paper. Even when it dies, you gain enough tempo out of it. Your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources just to kill it and just one attack sets them back big time. Its -2 isn't too shabby and frankly, not as bad as I thought.
LOI is a more defensive planeswalker but it is not necessarily better at developing the board. If you have zero creatures, neither LOI or SV will be great against an aggro build... you can then blame luck or poor deck building choices. In a typical board of 2-3 creatures, SV is almost always better than LOI and by a significant margin. The degree of magnitude between the life you'll gain from a 1/1 lifelink token vs a pumped lifelink attack is enormous. I like LOI's -2 ability a lot but the big deal breaker is that its +1 is just not good enough for 4-mana in most scenarios. Personally, I find Gideon AZ similar but usually better at what it does.
When SV first came out, some people doubted it would surpass LOI. The only reason it sees more play now is because it has established itself to be far better as people started testing it.
I agree with everything You've mentioned. In most cases SV is far better but they don't fill the same slot. I also agree that Gideon fits a similar bill but they obviously aren't identical. The big draw for me on LOI is that he makes his own blockers and can "anthem" and still be a living threat. You hit it on the head his -2 is what I really like about him. If I could have one LOI and one SV out at the same time you bet I'd 100% run them both; I'm just curious how he'd fare since it's been a bit since I've used him. I think if I run him again it will just be 1.
Sorin LOI vs Sorin SV is something that most people agree upon I presume? Could we have a little debate about it, or maybe a section?
I would say it's highly dependent how your deck works. It depends if I'm interested in the Emblem or if a single lifelink creature is enough regarding LoI.
Usually i prefer the SV due to I can give a lot more creatures lifelink and +1/0 which makes more impact on that swing. Also Sorin SV then goes up to 5. And I value a 2/2 flying higher than a 1/1 lifelink.
It depends on the matchup and what the circumstances are. Yes a 2/2 is bigger than a 1/1 but odds are likely that if you minus SV you will lose him since his loyalty drops so low. LOI does a better job advancing the board state than SV does. SV also isn't a great top deck if you're behind as you'll likely minus him to get a token and then he will die (not always, but this is my experience) with the new fastland I might test LOI again since we won't be damaging ourselves as much.
The biggest reason to run Sorin SV is for his +1. Honestly, his +1 is borderline broken in a token build. With just three creatures, you are guaranteed to get at least 6 life. With virtue, potentially more as the lifelink lasts until the next turn. The magnitude of the effect is far more substantial in practice than on paper. Even when it dies, you gain enough tempo out of it. Your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources just to kill it and just one attack sets them back big time. Its -2 isn't too shabby and frankly, not as bad as I thought.
LOI is a more defensive planeswalker but it is not necessarily better at developing the board. If you have zero creatures, neither LOI or SV will be great against an aggro build... you can then blame luck or poor deck building choices. In a typical board of 2-3 creatures, SV is almost always better than LOI and by a significant margin. The degree of magnitude between the life you'll gain from a 1/1 lifelink token vs a pumped lifelink attack is enormous. I like LOI's -2 ability a lot but the big deal breaker is that its +1 is just not good enough for 4-mana in most scenarios. Personally, I find Gideon AZ similar but usually better at what it does.
When SV first came out, some people doubted it would surpass LOI. The only reason it sees more play now is because it has established itself to be far better as people started testing it.
I agree with everything You've mentioned. In most cases SV is far better but they don't fill the same slot. I also agree that Gideon fits a similar bill but they obviously aren't identical. The big draw for me on LOI is that he makes his own blockers and can "anthem" and still be a living threat. You hit it on the head his -2 is what I really like about him. If I could have one LOI and one SV out at the same time you bet I'd 100% run them both; I'm just curious how he'd fare since it's been a bit since I've used him. I think if I run him again it will just be 1.
This is where I think returning to Elspeth Tirel fits in the current meta, she is absolutely broken in conjunction with SV, and completely dominates the game almost immediately. I have yet to lose after resolving her, and she definitely fills the role LOI used to before SV kicked him to the curb.
I would say it's highly dependent how your deck works. It depends if I'm interested in the Emblem or if a single lifelink creature is enough regarding LoI.
Usually i prefer the SV due to I can give a lot more creatures lifelink and +1/0 which makes more impact on that swing. Also Sorin SV then goes up to 5. And I value a 2/2 flying higher than a 1/1 lifelink.
It depends on the matchup and what the circumstances are. Yes a 2/2 is bigger than a 1/1 but odds are likely that if you minus SV you will lose him since his loyalty drops so low. LOI does a better job advancing the board state than SV does. SV also isn't a great top deck if you're behind as you'll likely minus him to get a token and then he will die (not always, but this is my experience) with the new fastland I might test LOI again since we won't be damaging ourselves as much.
The biggest reason to run Sorin SV is for his +1. Honestly, his +1 is borderline broken in a token build. With just three creatures, you are guaranteed to get at least 6 life. With virtue, potentially more as the lifelink lasts until the next turn. The magnitude of the effect is far more substantial in practice than on paper. Even when it dies, you gain enough tempo out of it. Your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources just to kill it and just one attack sets them back big time. Its -2 isn't too shabby and frankly, not as bad as I thought.
LOI is a more defensive planeswalker but it is not necessarily better at developing the board. If you have zero creatures, neither LOI or SV will be great against an aggro build... you can then blame luck or poor deck building choices. In a typical board of 2-3 creatures, SV is almost always better than LOI and by a significant margin. The degree of magnitude between the life you'll gain from a 1/1 lifelink token vs a pumped lifelink attack is enormous. I like LOI's -2 ability a lot but the big deal breaker is that its +1 is just not good enough for 4-mana in most scenarios. Personally, I find Gideon AZ similar but usually better at what it does.
When SV first came out, some people doubted it would surpass LOI. The only reason it sees more play now is because it has established itself to be far better as people started testing it.
I agree with everything You've mentioned. In most cases SV is far better but they don't fill the same slot. I also agree that Gideon fits a similar bill but they obviously aren't identical. The big draw for me on LOI is that he makes his own blockers and can "anthem" and still be a living threat. You hit it on the head his -2 is what I really like about him. If I could have one LOI and one SV out at the same time you bet I'd 100% run them both; I'm just curious how he'd fare since it's been a bit since I've used him. I think if I run him again it will just be 1.
This is where I think returning to Elspeth Tirel fits in the current meta, she is absolutely broken in conjunction with SV, and completely dominates the game almost immediately. I have yet to lose after resolving her, and she definitely fills the role LOI used to before SV kicked him to the curb.
I still don't know about Tirel. I've mainly tested her against control/ combo and a few aggro/midrange here and there... but I face too many constraints with her. Her being 5-mana, +1 being lackluster, -5 being situational, etc. Definitely a really cool card but I can't just add cards based on flavor. My current evaluation is that she is a very good planeswalker but unnecessary. I'm not entirely sure I'd run her even if she was 4-mana, so being 5-mana is a big deal. There were too many games where I wanted an extra Liliana or a Sorin in its place. Once I get more aggro/midrange matches in, I'll be able to draw a strict conclusion.
Well you're on the Mardu build still correct? She's probably not playable in that list as she's too taxing on the curve. In the 24 land straight BW builds she's pretty easy to get out on curve most of the time. Also remember it's +2, not +1 which is a big difference. I definitely agree the -5 is situational, but the interaction between her +2 and -2 is amazing. In an empty board she creates enough tokens with a -2 the turn she drops that she's unlikely to be removed in combat before the next turn where you can start using the +2 to solidify your advantage. On a populated board immediately using her +2 can swing the course of the game in your favor right away. Finally, in the situations where her -5 is relevant you usually simply win due to the immediate drastic shift in tempo that most decks will not be able to overcome. I definitely wouldn't run more than 1 though.
Anyone tried playing with Authority of the Consuls against burn/aggro as a kind of hybrid imposing-sovereign-meets-auriok-champion?
It only triggers on opponent ETB, but it costs one less, is an enchantment (though might be worse than champion's protection), and slows them down. Maybe could help in Raise the Alarm versions of tokens so you can get extra damage through earlier? Or in mirror match-ups?
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Also, thoughts on [Eliminate the Competition]? At first glance I thought it might be useful, but now it seems quite the opposite. Gotta be better ways to spend 5 mana, right?
Also I just want to mention my thoughts on Authority of the Consuls. It's not great vs burn or Zoo, since its slow unless you get it T1 and only delays them a turn. The decks I forsee it being good against are decks that Use instant reanimate effects Grishoal Brand, Living End, anything with Through the Breach, Nihiri Emrakul decks, Elves, CoCo decks, ETC. I ordered two of them, will I use them? I have no idea but I will keep them in my binder just in case these sort of effects get more popular or I see them being big in any particular Meta.
Anyone tried playing with Authority of the Consuls against burn/aggro as a kind of hybrid imposing-sovereign-meets-auriok-champion?
It only triggers on opponent ETB, but it costs one less, is an enchantment (though might be worse than champion's protection), and slows them down. Maybe could help in Raise the Alarm versions of tokens so you can get extra damage through earlier? Or in mirror match-ups?
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Also, thoughts on [Eliminate the Competition]? At first glance I thought it might be useful, but now it seems quite the opposite. Gotta be better ways to spend 5 mana, right?
Also I just want to mention my thoughts on Authority of the Consuls. It's not great vs burn or Zoo, since its slow unless you get it T1 and only delays them a turn. The decks I forsee it being good against are decks that Use instant reanimate effects Grishoal Brand, Living End, anything with Through the Breach, Nihiri Emrakul decks, Elves, CoCo decks, ETC. I ordered two of them, will I use them? I have no idea but I will keep them in my binder just in case these sort of effects get more popular or I see them being big in any particular Meta.
It's not good at all against Nahiri as she can just remove it. Though that's assuming it's even decent to begin with which I doubt, it's just too gimmicky and ineffective. Elves and CoCo run Rec
Sage/Qasili which they'll just tutor for with CoCo/Chord. In general it's a bad Blind Obedience and that card hasn't been playable in a while as is.
Well you're on the Mardu build still correct? She's probably not playable in that list as she's too taxing on the curve. In the 24 land straight BW builds she's pretty easy to get out on curve most of the time. Also remember it's +2, not +1 which is a big difference. I definitely agree the -5 is situational, but the interaction between her +2 and -2 is amazing. In an empty board she creates enough tokens with a -2 the turn she drops that she's unlikely to be removed in combat before the next turn where you can start using the +2 to solidify your advantage. On a populated board immediately using her +2 can swing the course of the game in your favor right away. Finally, in the situations where her -5 is relevant you usually simply win due to the immediate drastic shift in tempo that most decks will not be able to overcome. I definitely wouldn't run more than 1 though.
I cast both Liliana and Spectral Procession fine so no, she is not taxing on the curve. I run 23 lands, which isn't very different from 24 lands. I meant +2 but either way, I was talking about the lifegain not being impactful enough, rather than the fact that her uptick wasn't significant.
Her -2 is good against the aggro and midrange decks but the fact that she offers no disruption or an immediate anthem definitely makes her less versatile as a late game top deck. If I'm relying too much on her -2, I'd rather just cast Secure the Wastes instead.
Her -5 is amazing but there were too many games where if I had a 4-drop in her place, I would've won the game already. She feels a tad bit too slow for Modern. I put her in against Boggles for the ability to get rid of all enchantments on the field. Both games I got stuck on 4 lands, although I suppose none of the planeswalkers except Liliana would have been useful either.
Anyone tried playing with Authority of the Consuls against burn/aggro as a kind of hybrid imposing-sovereign-meets-auriok-champion?
It only triggers on opponent ETB, but it costs one less, is an enchantment (though might be worse than champion's protection), and slows them down. Maybe could help in Raise the Alarm versions of tokens so you can get extra damage through earlier? Or in mirror match-ups?
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Also, thoughts on [Eliminate the Competition]? At first glance I thought it might be useful, but now it seems quite the opposite. Gotta be better ways to spend 5 mana, right?
Also I just want to mention my thoughts on Authority of the Consuls. It's not great vs burn or Zoo, since its slow unless you get it T1 and only delays them a turn. The decks I forsee it being good against are decks that Use instant reanimate effects Grishoal Brand, Living End, anything with Through the Breach, Nihiri Emrakul decks, Elves, CoCo decks, ETC. I ordered two of them, will I use them? I have no idea but I will keep them in my binder just in case these sort of effects get more popular or I see them being big in any particular Meta.
It's not good at all against Nahiri as she can just remove it. Though that's assuming it's even decent to begin with which I doubt, it's just too gimmicky and ineffective. Elves and CoCo run Rec
Sage/Qasili which they'll just tutor for with CoCo/Chord. In general it's a bad Blind Obedience and that card hasn't been playable in a while as is.
I actually totally spaced that Nihiri exiles Enchantments (duh) you think I'd remember with her exiling BB and Virtue. So yeah, point stands really the only thing it would be super effects against are decks that rely on Breach. The other decks I mentioned were simply just to state what it COULD be used against, overall it's narrow and not great but I ordered two for .50/ea just in case, I figured buying them was worth the cost of a can of soda, haha.
I also just want to point out that Dredge with the new card cathartic reunion is completely bonkers and next to impossible if we don't get a Turn 1 or Turn 2 Grafdiggers or RiP. Not sure if there is anything more to be done to our decks or SB since those are probably the best cards to tech against them.
By turn 2 using Faithless Looting and Reunion my opponent had dredged 20 cards and threatened lethal the next turn with combat and conflagrate. It was pretty rough.
Testing of new slots in both budget and non budget has shown me some interesting things
1. Promise of Bunrei is bad. It's even more situational than Timely Reinforcements. Please, no. I mean, it's cool when it works, but that's it.
2. Smuggler's Copter is just fun. It won't do much MB IMO cos of Bolt, but it does synergise well. We have a billion 1/1 tokens to pilot it, and it improves our hand, such as discarding late topdecked discard, or even discarding L Souls for value.
3. Concealed Courtyard, the BW Fastland, is putting in work. It hurts when you can't play Sorin on curve though... I am wondering how many to play in my budget list, especially because I have 4 4-drops (an additional Gideon) and no discard (so less t1 by far)
4. Gideon, AoZ is cool. However a lot of times I would rathe play Sorin, so I only run 1 of him, in MB, in budget (I own one).
Thanks, and feel free to tell me if you disagree
Lastly, my (budget) list. I went for the 'ANTHEMSSSSS' angle. It is not tuned and I just jumped into the deck a week before, so comments would be nice.
Lands (23)
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Windbrisk Heights
1 Vault of the Archangel
7 Plains
3 Swamp
(considering playing 8 Plains 2 Swamp)
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Anthems (10)
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Honor of the Pure
3 Zealous Persecution
Removal (6)
4 Path to Exile (not budgety, but I own 2 playsets, because I Modern.)
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut ---> Go for the Throat (cos less ways to fill GY to make this efficient)
Did you tried duress ?
It's pretty good in modern.
Wrench mind can be okay too but 2B is a thing.
You should remove your haunting and put 2 timely reinforcement.
Don't play cut without fetch.
I prefer playing 7-8 removal than 6.
You should take a look at westvale abbey. It's very good.
Tidehollow sculler is kinda worth but makes removal good against him.
@domah
1. Duress is good, I have tested that card b4. I suppose I will play that SB, maybe make some room for 2 MB.
2. Wrench Mind? Are you, like, sane?
3. 4 Timely Reinforcements MB? Is, like, 80% of the field Zoo and Burn?
4. Cut without fetch is lackluster, that's why I play GFtT. Good point there. If the gearhulks pop up, or a lot of Affinity, Doom Blade is a thing. At worst I'll play some other removal spell.
5. 7-8 removal sounds pretty hard to squeeze in MB. Without the non-budget black sources I cannot play over 2 Dismember, and 1 feels comfortable enough with me. 4 Path is untouchable, and GFtT has worked for me so far. Zealous Persecution I actually count as removal, however situational it may be. It can be a pump as well, which takes away some of the situational problem. It is good against Infect (unless it's g2 and they know what removal you have), especially at Instant Speed. It's good against Elves, which is a thing in my meta but not really elsewhere. It's decent against Merfolk, though unspectacular, as it can get big blowouts in combat where you turn the tables and lord your tokens while shrinking theirs, eating their lords... Okay, dreamland aside. Affinity is pretty weak to persecution as well. it kills Pest, Vault Skirge, Memnite, Nexuses, and can help your 1/1 spirit block a Cranial Plating-ed Ornithopter. However this is just making a good matchup, well, better.
6. Westvale Abbey is a good idea, I left that out. I suppose I will play a singleton Secure the Wastes as my flex spot so as to feed Abbey; I used to play BW Control in SOI STD and I know how good it feels. It is however only a colourless source, which hurts the mana. A lot.
7. Tidehollow Sculler
has this upside: is a 2/2 for 2, removes the best card from their hand
has this downside: returns the card once dead, is a creature they can target with spot removal, is not pumped by Intangible Virtue, is Boltable...
Thanks for your comments.
@narssissistic I agree that GAoZ is powerful. He is a resilient threat, can make chump blockers indefinitely, anthems/beats when we are racing... stuff like that. However I feel the deck has very little space for such high CMC cards in my build where my mana is kind of weak.
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One change I want to make is to play Shambling Vent. Most versions do not play Vent, because they play t1 discard. However our deck starts from t2. Unless you are facing down t1 Glistener Elfs all day every day, Path is rarely a t1 card unlike Bolt. Shambling Vent and Westvale Abbey will make waves in the mana though. I will be unable to play Isolated Chapel as it will ETB tapped way too much. Also, GQ is a card we want to play but cannot afford the hurt caused to the mana base. We often need to cast Procession on time; without consistent Processions it becomes a weaker card.
As has been previously suggested, tested, stated, restated, etc Westvale Abbey does not have a home in BW Tokens, or likely modern in general. It is various combinations of too slow, card disadvantage, and turns on any number of pieces of removal that otherwise would be next to useless.
@SamuGelb that list is frankly nonsensical and unplayable. Smuggler's Copter likely has no place in Tokens to begin with, Asylum Visitor as a sideboard card makes little sense to start and running it main is just silly. 4 Anguished Unmaking is 3 too many, same goes for Secure the Wastes. Your manabase needs a lot of work as well.
In my version I'm running :
4 Marsh flat
4 windswept
4 courtyard
2 godless shrine
2 westvale abbey
1 archangel
2 shambling vents
1 fetid heath
3 plains
1 swamp
It feel pretty good.
I would say it's highly dependent how your deck works. It depends if I'm interested in the Emblem or if a single lifelink creature is enough regarding LoI.
Usually i prefer the SV due to I can give a lot more creatures lifelink and +1/0 which makes more impact on that swing. Also Sorin SV then goes up to 5. And I value a 2/2 flying higher than a 1/1 lifelink.
It depends on the matchup and what the circumstances are. Yes a 2/2 is bigger than a 1/1 but odds are likely that if you minus SV you will lose him since his loyalty drops so low. LOI does a better job advancing the board state than SV does. SV also isn't a great top deck if you're behind as you'll likely minus him to get a token and then he will die (not always, but this is my experience) with the new fastland I might test LOI again since we won't be damaging ourselves as much.
My Art Page
The biggest reason to run Sorin SV is for his +1. Honestly, his +1 is borderline broken in a token build. With just three creatures, you are guaranteed to get at least 6 life. With virtue, potentially more as the lifelink lasts until the next turn. The magnitude of the effect is far more substantial in practice than on paper. Even when it dies, you gain enough tempo out of it. Your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources just to kill it and just one attack sets them back big time. Its -2 isn't too shabby and frankly, not as bad as I thought.
LOI is a more defensive planeswalker but it is not necessarily better at developing the board. If you have zero creatures, neither LOI or SV will be great against an aggro build... you can then blame luck or poor deck building choices. In a typical board of 2-3 creatures, SV is almost always better than LOI and by a significant margin. The degree of magnitude between the life you'll gain from a 1/1 lifelink token vs a pumped lifelink attack is enormous. I like LOI's -2 ability a lot but the big deal breaker is that its +1 is just not good enough for 4-mana in most scenarios. Personally, I find Gideon AZ similar but usually better at what it does.
When SV first came out, some people doubted it would surpass LOI. The only reason it sees more play now is because it has established itself to be far better as people started testing it.
I've discussed the first card in detail already. But no both the cards are not great.
Also, you're spot on re: SV vs LOI. I had LOI initially, and with SV, the fact that his +1 lasts until your next turn makes a world of difference (especially with IT on the field)
No auriok champion is also a terrible top deck except against a few decks. I don't run them myself unless there is a specific meta I am preparing for. Authority is pretty bad unless you run 3-4 to see them early, and even then, there are better anti-aggro cards for both the main and side.
I agree with everything You've mentioned. In most cases SV is far better but they don't fill the same slot. I also agree that Gideon fits a similar bill but they obviously aren't identical. The big draw for me on LOI is that he makes his own blockers and can "anthem" and still be a living threat. You hit it on the head his -2 is what I really like about him. If I could have one LOI and one SV out at the same time you bet I'd 100% run them both; I'm just curious how he'd fare since it's been a bit since I've used him. I think if I run him again it will just be 1.
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This is where I think returning to Elspeth Tirel fits in the current meta, she is absolutely broken in conjunction with SV, and completely dominates the game almost immediately. I have yet to lose after resolving her, and she definitely fills the role LOI used to before SV kicked him to the curb.
I still don't know about Tirel. I've mainly tested her against control/ combo and a few aggro/midrange here and there... but I face too many constraints with her. Her being 5-mana, +1 being lackluster, -5 being situational, etc. Definitely a really cool card but I can't just add cards based on flavor. My current evaluation is that she is a very good planeswalker but unnecessary. I'm not entirely sure I'd run her even if she was 4-mana, so being 5-mana is a big deal. There were too many games where I wanted an extra Liliana or a Sorin in its place. Once I get more aggro/midrange matches in, I'll be able to draw a strict conclusion.
Also I just want to mention my thoughts on Authority of the Consuls. It's not great vs burn or Zoo, since its slow unless you get it T1 and only delays them a turn. The decks I forsee it being good against are decks that Use instant reanimate effects Grishoal Brand, Living End, anything with Through the Breach, Nihiri Emrakul decks, Elves, CoCo decks, ETC. I ordered two of them, will I use them? I have no idea but I will keep them in my binder just in case these sort of effects get more popular or I see them being big in any particular Meta.
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It's not good at all against Nahiri as she can just remove it. Though that's assuming it's even decent to begin with which I doubt, it's just too gimmicky and ineffective. Elves and CoCo run Rec
Sage/Qasili which they'll just tutor for with CoCo/Chord. In general it's a bad Blind Obedience and that card hasn't been playable in a while as is.
I cast both Liliana and Spectral Procession fine so no, she is not taxing on the curve. I run 23 lands, which isn't very different from 24 lands. I meant +2 but either way, I was talking about the lifegain not being impactful enough, rather than the fact that her uptick wasn't significant.
Her -2 is good against the aggro and midrange decks but the fact that she offers no disruption or an immediate anthem definitely makes her less versatile as a late game top deck. If I'm relying too much on her -2, I'd rather just cast Secure the Wastes instead.
Her -5 is amazing but there were too many games where if I had a 4-drop in her place, I would've won the game already. She feels a tad bit too slow for Modern. I put her in against Boggles for the ability to get rid of all enchantments on the field. Both games I got stuck on 4 lands, although I suppose none of the planeswalkers except Liliana would have been useful either.
I actually totally spaced that Nihiri exiles Enchantments (duh) you think I'd remember with her exiling BB and Virtue. So yeah, point stands really the only thing it would be super effects against are decks that rely on Breach. The other decks I mentioned were simply just to state what it COULD be used against, overall it's narrow and not great but I ordered two for .50/ea just in case, I figured buying them was worth the cost of a can of soda, haha.
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By turn 2 using Faithless Looting and Reunion my opponent had dredged 20 cards and threatened lethal the next turn with combat and conflagrate. It was pretty rough.
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1. Promise of Bunrei is bad. It's even more situational than Timely Reinforcements. Please, no. I mean, it's cool when it works, but that's it.
2. Smuggler's Copter is just fun. It won't do much MB IMO cos of Bolt, but it does synergise well. We have a billion 1/1 tokens to pilot it, and it improves our hand, such as discarding late topdecked discard, or even discarding L Souls for value.
3. Concealed Courtyard, the BW Fastland, is putting in work. It hurts when you can't play Sorin on curve though... I am wondering how many to play in my budget list, especially because I have 4 4-drops (an additional Gideon) and no discard (so less t1 by far)
4. Gideon, AoZ is cool. However a lot of times I would rathe play Sorin, so I only run 1 of him, in MB, in budget (I own one).
Thanks, and feel free to tell me if you disagree
Lastly, my (budget) list. I went for the 'ANTHEMSSSSS' angle. It is not tuned and I just jumped into the deck a week before, so comments would be nice.
Lands (23)
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Windbrisk Heights
1 Vault of the Archangel
7 Plains
3 Swamp
(considering playing 8 Plains 2 Swamp)
Token generators (14)
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Midnight Haunting
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Anthems (10)
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Honor of the Pure
3 Zealous Persecution
Removal (6)
4 Path to Exile (not budgety, but I own 2 playsets, because I Modern.)
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut ---> Go for the Throat (cos less ways to fill GY to make this efficient)
Flex Spots (3)
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 (needs help)
It's pretty good in modern.
Wrench mind can be okay too but 2B is a thing.
You should remove your haunting and put 2 timely reinforcement.
Don't play cut without fetch.
I prefer playing 7-8 removal than 6.
You should take a look at westvale abbey. It's very good.
Tidehollow sculler is kinda worth but makes removal good against him.
1. Duress is good, I have tested that card b4. I suppose I will play that SB, maybe make some room for 2 MB.
2. Wrench Mind? Are you, like, sane?
3. 4 Timely Reinforcements MB? Is, like, 80% of the field Zoo and Burn?
4. Cut without fetch is lackluster, that's why I play GFtT. Good point there. If the gearhulks pop up, or a lot of Affinity, Doom Blade is a thing. At worst I'll play some other removal spell.
5. 7-8 removal sounds pretty hard to squeeze in MB. Without the non-budget black sources I cannot play over 2 Dismember, and 1 feels comfortable enough with me. 4 Path is untouchable, and GFtT has worked for me so far. Zealous Persecution I actually count as removal, however situational it may be. It can be a pump as well, which takes away some of the situational problem. It is good against Infect (unless it's g2 and they know what removal you have), especially at Instant Speed. It's good against Elves, which is a thing in my meta but not really elsewhere. It's decent against Merfolk, though unspectacular, as it can get big blowouts in combat where you turn the tables and lord your tokens while shrinking theirs, eating their lords... Okay, dreamland aside. Affinity is pretty weak to persecution as well. it kills Pest, Vault Skirge, Memnite, Nexuses, and can help your 1/1 spirit block a Cranial Plating-ed Ornithopter. However this is just making a good matchup, well, better.
6. Westvale Abbey is a good idea, I left that out. I suppose I will play a singleton Secure the Wastes as my flex spot so as to feed Abbey; I used to play BW Control in SOI STD and I know how good it feels. It is however only a colourless source, which hurts the mana. A lot.
7. Tidehollow Sculler
has this upside: is a 2/2 for 2, removes the best card from their hand
has this downside: returns the card once dead, is a creature they can target with spot removal, is not pumped by Intangible Virtue, is Boltable...
Thanks for your comments.
@narssissistic I agree that GAoZ is powerful. He is a resilient threat, can make chump blockers indefinitely, anthems/beats when we are racing... stuff like that. However I feel the deck has very little space for such high CMC cards in my build where my mana is kind of weak.
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One change I want to make is to play Shambling Vent. Most versions do not play Vent, because they play t1 discard. However our deck starts from t2. Unless you are facing down t1 Glistener Elfs all day every day, Path is rarely a t1 card unlike Bolt. Shambling Vent and Westvale Abbey will make waves in the mana though. I will be unable to play Isolated Chapel as it will ETB tapped way too much. Also, GQ is a card we want to play but cannot afford the hurt caused to the mana base. We often need to cast Procession on time; without consistent Processions it becomes a weaker card.
I am thinking of a mana base like this
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Caves
3 Shambling Vent
3 Concealed Courtyard
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Windbrisk Heights
2 GQ
6 Plains
1 Swamp
@SamuGelb that list is frankly nonsensical and unplayable. Smuggler's Copter likely has no place in Tokens to begin with, Asylum Visitor as a sideboard card makes little sense to start and running it main is just silly. 4 Anguished Unmaking is 3 too many, same goes for Secure the Wastes. Your manabase needs a lot of work as well.