MTG Salvation

Quote from NZB2323 »

Since people side out removal against us, has anyone tried having creatures that are typically weak to removal in the side, like

• tidehollow sculler
  
• Takaki, War’s wage
  
• Kambal, consul of allocation
  
• Aven mindcensor

Then we could side them back out for game 3 if the opponent sides removal back in.

Eh, they're not going to side out removal, if anything they may replace a bolt with anger of the gods, for instance. But from experience, you don't get a free hand with removal magnets after game 1. There's still going to be push-snap-push actions happening.

Quote from tarotplz »

Thanks for the replies,

Let me ask you some more questions about the decks though.

In BW Control, what do you think about Liliana of the Veil? Do you think she fits in? If no, why does she fit in Tokens so much better?

Also, like Gazpoole stated above, how much of an impact do the mainboard wraths have in your opinion? How many times are they actually game deciding?

Lili is rarely played in the BW Control list because the deck has a really high curve with 10 or more 4+cmc cards, so you absolutley have to hit your first 4-5 landdrops and you usually don't want to discard any of the planeswalkers or wraths. However, I play 2 Lilis in my sideboard for matchups where my opponent doesn't play to the board and/or holds a lot of cards in hand. In midrange decks like Jund and Abzan Lili works better in the maindeck as these decks don't need a lot of lands and play the topdeck-game much better. I never played her in Tokens, so I have no experience to share here.

Against most creature decks, Wrath of God/Damnation/Day of Judgment are the cards I'm always happy to see. It is the deck's way to produce card advantage and create a window for Gideons to attack before the opponent can recover; so yes they are very crucial to the deck. Of course there are matchups where wrath effects are dead, but as long as the meta stays creature heavy, I'm willing to accept this.

Hey everyone!

I've been following this thread for a little while now, and have put together this list. I thought I'd post it here before I buy it to see if anyone had any feedback/criticism/improvements. Just want to add that you've got a great thread going here!

Here's my decklist. Idk how to do it properly, but oh well (sorry if that's an inconvenience for anyone)

PLANESWALKER (3)

3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor

INSTANT (17)

2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Start//Finish

SORCERY (10)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls

ENCHANTMENT (7)

3 Legions Landing
4 Intangible Virture

LANDS (23)

4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Shambling Vent
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Shefet Dunes
1 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
3 Swamp

SIDEBOARD

2 Damping Sphere
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Auriok Champion
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Fragmentize
2 Day of Judgment
3 Duress
2 Stony Silence


As you can probably tell, it's more of an aggro build (only because Bitterbloosom is super expensive lol) with Raise the Alarm, three Legions Landing, etc

A couple of notes on card choices:

Blessed Alliance - At some point I plan to replace this with Collective Brutality, but since that's pretty expensive I think Blessed Alliance is the next best thing.

4 IoK 2 Thoughtseize - Ideally this would be a 3/3 split, but Thoughtseize is expensive, and I already own four IoK, so for the moment I'm going with a 4/2 split

Manabase - As you can see, I've got a fairly budget manabase. I'm trying to keep this as cheap as I realistically can. (In case you were wondering, the only reason I have the Marsh Flats is because it was a gift from a friend)

Shambling Vent - I know a lot of you only run two or three, but I find that its strength in the mid/late game makes of for its occasional clunkiness early game. Having said that I have been considering going down one for another Shefet Dunes.


That's all, so please give me any feedback, suggestions, and especially criticisms that you can think of!


Just realised how long this post is... Sorry

Thanks for the reply Tarotplz!

I do see what you mean about Spectral Procession being better than Start//Finish in an aggro build, but I slightly prefer Start//Finish due to it's easy mana requirements + it's flexibility as a removal spell if you need one. I do see how three flyers for three mana is really good though. Just my personal preference.

I'm still doing some testing on the amount of Shambling Vents that I play, but I think that I'll probably end up agreeing with you and go down one.

I love the idea of adding Gideon, Ally of Zendikar! I've been trying to find room for him for a while, and, since you recommend that I should run less removal, I think I'll try him instead if Blessed Alliance. One question on this topic: let's say I had Collective Brutality instead of Blessed Alliance. (the only reason I don't is because Collective Brutality is really expensive ) anyway, if that was the case, would you say that Gideon would be better than Collective Brutality? I hope that kind of made sense

let's think about what CB and Gideon try to accomplish. Gideon is pretty much your high end "bitterblossom". Left unchecked he wins the game. Collective Brutality is a silver bullet against Burn and a mediocre control card otherwise - the discard can very well whiff, the removal mode is only good for smol dudes and the drain isn't exactly relevant against non-aggro decks.

CB performs best in the sideboard, while Gideon is a tried and tested starting 60 guy. Against Burn you'd probably want CB, but the thing here is you probably wouldn't drop Gids for it, because Gids offers a way to stabilize and makes their eidolon look really stupid. Gids stalls the board until you either get domed out or draw Sorin, in which case you win. So CB replaces thoughtseizes, bitterblossoms, and other such self-harming cards. Kill that gobbo, discard that boros charm and drain 2 while discarding an excess land and lingering souls on turn 2 is beautiful. Like I said, silver bullet for burn.

If you don't want to spend money on CB, you don't really have to, since we're in lifegain colors. Blessed alliance is a nice card, and you can also probably get 2-3 copies of Auriok Champion, freshly reprinted in Iconic and as affordable as ever. Will wall off those bloodghasts and death's shadows for you too, bonus!

One Swamp is standard for a typical mana-base in decks without BB casting costs.. Without fetches, I dunno.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, I really appreciate it =)

I guess a will put in a Gideon, for all the reasons you listed above.

Tarotplz, fair enough. I'll try out Spectral Procession over Start//Finish. Your reasoning makes a lot of sense.

As for the three Swamps, I know it is a lot, but since I don't have all the fetches, I thought that running slightly more would be better because of Blood Mood and Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin. I did intend to replace a couple of Swamps with Godless Shrine eventually, but don't really want to buy them straight away.

That makes a lot of sense. I've gone down a swamp for a fourth plains, and at some point, I intend to go down a plains, and another Swamp, for two Godless Shrine.

As for the amount of removal I'm running, I went down to one Blessed Alliance for a Gideon AoZ.

Hey guys I am a long time lurker I have been following this thread for the last two years. I have only just gotten my bw tokens deck up and running. Sadly I don't have the budget to get the mana base up to the optimal configuration yet, but I wanted to get some opinions on the list I have so far.

Gazpoole thank you for the constructive criticism. I will investigate the token generators as I have noticed the lack of threats point you made. I have no attachment to the night's whispers in particular. I was mostly considering them as I have found in earlier testing I would end up with consistency issues regarding cards needed. I know most people are on the Gideon train, but I do have a preference for running Sorin over him as in my opinion he allows for more interesting play. Plus I am a Sorin fanboy anyway lol. I do love zealous persecution so I do always keep it in the 75, which I know I didn't post the side, but that is because I haven't gotten a clue what is being played in my area as I haven't been to a fnm in over 5 years. I just love zealous persecution when playing against affinity as it is basically a board wipe.

Tarotplz thank you for the criticism. As for why I have all the fancy stuff without the lands at this time is one I don't have the budget, but also because I have played mono black for a long time. Though the reasoning to focus on the meat of the deck instead of mana base is with the price of fetches and shocks some people wouldn't have a deck to play with. Basically the point is "hey I have all these lands, but I don't have a deck for them to work." I do intend to get the fetches sooner than later, but life priorities are taking precedent right now. Those of us in the gaming community know it can be tough to have this hobby when you have a family and a house.

I do want to reflect on the two posts to my list and I would like to point out the differences. First as I have been lurking for 2 years I have seen posts from Gazpoole and Tarotplz quite often. Generally you both are very helpful. However Tarotplz I find that you have a tendency to criticize without offering up any real fixes where as Gazpoole does. As someone who works at a company where I have to constantly scrutinize people from normal people to engineers you have to remember to always offer up fixes or insight when criticizing someone's project. I know you can offer constructive criticism Tarotplz as I have seen it. I just know I have seen a lot of people who will post a deck list and people will just criticize instead of helping and those people never come back, which is not a good thing in my mind. Secondly I think as a community we should look to help those that don't have the expensive lands by coming up with a budget mana base template as we have already basically done with the raise the alarm builds. Lastly this is not an attack by any means it is just my take on a common problem in the magic community, which boils down to a lot of criticism with no real help.

No hard feelings Tarotplz. I appreciate everything you have done for the thread and I had no intention of starting drama. I do have a playset of chapels as well which I will look into replacing the caves with a mix of chapels and and basics. As for the current configuration the deck is actually balanced between white and black and as one of our best first turn plays is a black source and a discard card I went with a touch more black mana. The night's whisper is a new inclusion as I have been running out of gas past the 4th turn. I am by no means stuck on them, but the problem of running out of gas has also been a constant problem. Do you have any suggestions to mitigate this problem? I also have no idea what my local meta is as I haven't played at fnm in the last five years.

Tarotplz thank you for the insights. I am looking into some other possible alternatives that will have more impact.

So this is slightly off topic, being BWR tokens instead of BW but I still felt like sharing something that I brewed recently. It's a Mardu Mentors deck built around Monastery Mentor and to a lesser extent, Mentor of the Meek. I know that playing creatures "turns on" opposing removal, but that's what the Dawn portion of Dusk//Dawn is for. Including them also offers a very fast clock and a very easy way to rebuild a board presence after a board wipe. I'm not interested in suggestions to "cut the creatures"(although tweaking their numbers might be a fine suggestion) because then I'm playing a different deck and I want to play a Monastery Mentor deck. I would love feedback about the surrounding shell though.

Quote from Daegamus »

Hey guys I am a long time lurker I have been following this thread for the last two years. I have only just gotten my bw tokens deck up and running. Sadly I don't have the budget to get the mana base up to the optimal configuration yet, but I wanted to get some opinions on the list I have so far.

PlasmaCatcher's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
1 Vault of the Archangel 2 Ghost Quarter 4 Concealed Courtyard 4 Caves of Koilos 1 Fetid Heath 1 Plains 3 Shambling Vent 4 Godless Shrine 2 Swamp 3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor 1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad 2 Legion's Landing 4 Intangible Virtue 3 Bitterblossom 3 Start 4 Path to Exile 3 Fatal Push 4 Night's Whisper 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 Lingering Souls 3 Thoughtseize

Your mana base is fine.
Your deck requires 14 untapped Black mana sources on your first turn. https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
Your Concealed Courtyard and Godless Shrines are premium colour fixing. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
Caves of Koilos is fine and with your 2 Swamps, you should reliably accomplish Plan A on your first turn.
Shambling Vent and Fetid Heath are good fixers and your deck doesn't tax mana or life too heavily.
It wouldn't hurt to add another Plain though.

Nights Whisper should come out for some more powerful cards.
Nights Whisper will cost you a turn, two mana and two life, to draw ... a token producer... to cast NEXT turn.
Just replace them with more token producers. They're what you're digging for anyway.

If you're genuinely concerned about a life-taxing mana base, Timely Reinforcements is good (especially with Caves of Koilos).

One thing I wouldn't recommend with your mana base is Spectral Procession.
You need 22 White sources on turn three to cast SP. https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
You have 14 untapped T3 White mana sources and 3 less reliable (Shambling Vent) sources. Not enough.

I suggest the modest adjustments of: 1 more Plain, 2 more Token producers and any other spell Sorin would cast.

As I have been looking through cards I had the thought of maybe creatures could be interesting. I know we generally don't want to run creatures, but I know some people run Audio Champion and i have seen Tidehollow Schuller from time to time. So this got me thinking if we were to consider a new creature what kind of abilities would we want. My thoughts would be protection of some kind, evasion, and/or something that improves our draws. What do you guys think?

Yeah I agree Mentor is close to being good for our deck but, not quite there. In my mind if I were to consider a creature outside of the norm I would want something with protection/indestructible, evasion, reach, and generates advantage.

Hi guys


this is my Budget B/W-Token, based on the Modern event Deck from 2015 with added Sorin, such as the full Playset Path to Exile and the 4. Tidehollow Sculler





During play it feels that my Budget B/R Hollow One is fast and explosive, but the BW/Token feels like driving with Handbrake,......


Therefore I want to ask what I could especially change in the BW/Token out or change it with minor modifications in another Decktype so that it will feel better and more rounded.


But please no fetches in the start that will kill my Budget for em


I just wanna have more plays and maybe more wellrounded decks ...


Greetings Frank

Hi tarot,

The for answering and the advice I looked a bit around and made some minor tweaks which fit in my budget.

Whatcha say to it?




My Budget Sideboard ( like it was in the event deck)


//Sideboard
SB: 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus

Anointer Priest is my budget decision against Auriok Champion.

Also I fitted, changed the Manabase and squeezed in 2 Concealed Courtyards.

I added Elspeth Thirel and Sorin , Solemn Visitor too so I have 4 different PW

I go with you it's not the best/perfect upgrade but it fits in my budget.

Greetings

Quote from Daegamus »

Yeah I agree Mentor is close to being good for our deck but, not quite there. In my mind if I were to consider a creature outside of the norm I would want something with protection/indestructible, evasion, reach, and generates advantage.

will you settle for 2 out of 4? Oketra the True

Gideon AOZ is just better tho, in my experience.

Oketra is pretty good, but I was looking at Bontu instead. I really like the possible interaction for the deck, but it would require a lot of changes to optimize her.