All things considered, this has been a fun experiment, but I'm ready to move on to the new BW version I have been working on. Hope you guys find this info useful.
I cant access the link. Maybe you dont have it as public?
My bad, I had linked the edit page. Thanks for pointing out the problem; it is corrected now. Here is the updated link to the new build:
In fact, my deck started out as a budget soul sister deck with a couple token generators to trigger the sisters. Turns out I won more often with my little flyers than my beefy ajani's Pridemate and so I slowly converted my deck to what it is now.
Same here!!!! LOL
SAME!!! =D
Look at the specific text on my TappedOut link lol:
If I also get a couple of Thoughtseize and Surgical Extraction for my deck, I might actually win a combo-matchup one of these days
Then again I kinda wanted to go for fetchlands first
I don't know if you already run it, but Duress is actually not that bad of a budget alternative to our discard package. And it's very good against most combo deck.
On another note, would anyone care to put a numerical value on what our odds are in the DraziTron matchup?
I believe Eldrazi tron is easier to deal with than any other Tron decks. They run more creature, and we can to a certain extend deal with that better thanks to Path to exile, Runed halo and Blessed alliance. However, it really depend on how many copies of All is dust, oblivion stone and off course Ugin, the spirit dragon they run. Chalice of the void and Walking ballista can be a pain, but both are vulnerable to discard effect. Good thing is, they don't run engineered explosives. Karn liberated is also a big pain since it can blow out any permanent as soon as turn three, or just exile cards from our hand each turn by ticking up 4 counters each time.
Still, it's a 35/65 match-up at best. Possible, but they have the edge because of their various boardwipes and their ability to dodge Fatal push with almost all creatures, or at least the ones we'd like dead. This would also be one of the very few match-up where Dismember is better.
Eldrazitron has been relatively succesful for me. I have played against it 9 times and I have won 7! Stony silence, runed halo, and pithing needle are awesome. I board the pushes and the inquisitions.
If I also get a couple of Thoughtseize and Surgical Extraction for my deck, I might actually win a combo-matchup one of these days
Then again I kinda wanted to go for fetchlands first
I don't know if you already run it, but Duress is actually not that bad of a budget alternative to our discard package. And it's very good against most combo deck.
I realize that Duress is actually a great budget option. The reason why I shy away from using it, is that the combo-deck I face most often is Amulet Titan. I really want something that can take a Primeval Titan out of their starting hand. Despise feels like it would be much too narrow to actually find use in our deck.
Appetite for Brains might be a viable side-board budget option for a Titan and/or Tron infested environment. I rather shudder to mention it and it's probably still not worth a slot even under all these constraints but it would be fun to play! I'm sure someone will give you all the copies you need!
Well, really bad night last night. Went 1-2 when I should have gone 3-0.
Round 1 vs Jeskai Control.
Game 1: Draw into about 16 of my 23 lands and lose an extremely long game
Game 2: Turn 2 bitterblossom, win pretty easily
Game 3: Have about 8 tokens on board, thoughtseize, Sorin, Gideon, and intangible virtue in hand. Play thoughtseize to see he has a land and 2 cryptic. Take a cryptic and cast intangible into his cryptic expecting the counter. Planned to win next turn with Sorin. He top decks his single Thundermaw Hellkite (he confirmed it was his only copy after the game) to wipe my board and swing in with lethal on board next turn. I draw nothing and scoop.
Round 2 vs 8-Rack
Game 1: Lose to him having 2 Racks and 1 of the enchantment that does the same thing, my bitterblossom helps him get the final point of damage.
Game 2: Hold all my hand disruption after turn 1 to have discard fodder. Beat him down with tokens.
Game 3: Stick a Gideon wth 2 intangibles out. Make a token and start beating. He pushes the token. I ult Gideon for the emblem, letting me swing for 6 (exactly lethal) next turn to take the round.
Round 3 vs BW Humans
Game 1: win pretty quickly with auriok and bitterblossom out
Game 2: Don't draw gas and he wins right as I'm about to stabilize.
Game 3: Lost what seemed like an unloseable match. Had intangible and 5 2/2 vigilance flyers, he had thraben inspector and a flipped hanweir militia captain. Seems pretty unwinnable for him. Swing to bring him to 2 in 2 attacks after he pushed one of my tokens on the second attack. He's in topdeck and even says "if I don't get lingering souls I can't win". He proceeds to topdeck not 1, but 2 lingering souls in a row while I'm only holding 2 lands and 2 inquisition. He holds off my attacks while his flipped militia captain makes 3 1/1 weenies due to him having 4+ creatures and his end steps. I Keep drawing lands and he finally draws Thalia's Lieutenant while I only have 1 3/3 token on board (got a second intangible) pumping all his dudes and easily swinging for game.
My friend even said to me after "man you seem to lose to unlikely topdecks all the time". It's true. I've lost to singleton sideboard Thundermaws topdecked the turn before I win more times than I'd like to admit. Last week I lost to grixis control in 2 games (one of which I had 2 resolved bitterblossoms!) because he drew snapcaster and 3 of his 4 cryptics both games allowing him to tap down all my tokens and bounce his snapcaster to his hand 4-5 turns in a row and then topdecked flaying tendrils to wipe me. Both games I had more than 10 tokens on board that could do nothing because of chained cryptic. I'm so frustrated with this deck. I always feel like it is at the complete mercy of topdecks and has no consistency due to lack of card draw or filtering. It's been my pet deck for about 3 years (started with the event deck, upgrading over time) but recently I just feel like our game plan gives my openents way too much time to respond and stabilize.
I dunno, I'm really down on the deck. I'm not gonna sell it since it was my intro to modern and I've invested so much time and money into it, but I'm on the verge of retiring it for awhile to try something new -_-
Well, really bad night last night. Went 1-2 when I should have gone 3-0.
Round 1 vs Jeskai Control.
Game 1: Draw into about 16 of my 23 lands and lose an extremely long game
Game 2: Turn 2 bitterblossom, win pretty easily
Game 3: Have about 8 tokens on board, thoughtseize, Sorin, Gideon, and intangible virtue in hand. Play thoughtseize to see he has a land and 2 cryptic. Take a cryptic and cast intangible into his cryptic expecting the counter. Planned to win next turn with Sorin. He top decks his single Thundermaw Hellkite (he confirmed it was his only copy after the game) to wipe my board and swing in with lethal on board next turn. I draw nothing and scoop.
Round 2 vs 8-Rack
Game 1: Lose to him having 2 Racks and 1 of the enchantment that does the same thing, my bitterblossom helps him get the final point of damage.
Game 2: Hold all my hand disruption after turn 1 to have discard fodder. Beat him down with tokens.
Game 3: Stick a Gideon wth 2 intangibles out. Make a token and start beating. He pushes the token. I ult Gideon for the emblem, letting me swing for 6 (exactly lethal) next turn to take the round.
Round 3 vs BW Humans
Game 1: win pretty quickly with auriok and bitterblossom out
Game 2: Don't draw gas and he wins right as I'm about to stabilize.
Game 3: Lost what seemed like an unloseable match. Had intangible and 5 2/2 vigilance flyers, he had thraben inspector and a flipped hanweir militia captain. Seems pretty unwinnable for him. Swing to bring him to 2 in 2 attacks after he pushed one of my tokens on the second attack. He's in topdeck and even says "if I don't get lingering souls I can't win". He proceeds to topdeck not 1, but 2 lingering souls in a row while I'm only holding 2 lands and 2 inquisition. He holds off my attacks while his flipped militia captain makes 3 1/1 weenies due to him having 4+ creatures and his end steps. I Keep drawing lands and he finally draws Thalia's Lieutenant while I only have 1 3/3 token on board (got a second intangible) pumping all his dudes and easily swinging for game.
My friend even said to me after "man you seem to lose to unlikely topdecks all the time". It's true. I've lost to singleton sideboard Thundermaws topdecked the turn before I win more times than I'd like to admit. Last week I lost to grixis control in 2 games (one of which I had 2 resolved bitterblossoms!) because he drew snapcaster and 3 of his 4 cryptics both games allowing him to tap down all my tokens and bounce his snapcaster to his hand 4-5 turns in a row and then topdecked flaying tendrils to wipe me. Both games I had more than 10 tokens on board that could do nothing because of chained cryptic. I'm so frustrated with this deck. I always feel like it is at the complete mercy of topdecks and has no consistency due to lack of card draw or filtering. It's been my pet deck for about 3 years (started with the event deck, upgrading over time) but recently I just feel like our game plan gives my openents way too much time to respond and stabilize.
I dunno, I'm really down on the deck. I'm not gonna sell it since it was my intro to modern and I've invested so much time and money into it, but I'm on the verge of retiring it for awhile to try something new -_-
Post- board you´d probably also get Hornet Queen, but both do that.
All things considerd, I don´t think any of these options come anywhere close to the utility of Thoughtseize, so I just might get some of those first and then go for fetches afterwards.
You could try some of the innovative new tech the deck has gotten access to recently. Collective Brutality is a great option vs aggressive decks and doubles as another discard spell vs spell heavy control lists.
Another new card that is THE "new hot tech for BW Tokens" is Start // Finish it looks unimpressive on paper, but it actually does a pretty damn good Lingering Souls impression, as it has two halves which leads to a lot of additional value.
Zealous Persecution on the other hand feels a little underwhemling right now in the meta. It´s really only useful vs. Affinity if we go strictly by tier 1 decks. Sure, there´s Elves and some other matchups where it shines, but personally I´m looking to replace the one I have in my list.
If you find you have trouble closing the game out (leaving yourself vunerable to lucky topdecks) perhaps consider changing to a 3-1 split of Sorin, Solemn Visitor - Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
Don´t get me wrong, I love good old Gid, he´s a great card, but Sorin deals his damage quicker. (assuming you have a board, but we´re Tokens, so we should always have that)
If you find yourself struggling against boardwipes (like Thundermaw Hellkite or as is more likely, others) you could also consider Selfless Spirit or perhaps Burrenton Forge-Tender in your sideboard.
Full transparency though, a lot of people in this thread seem to dislike that option, especially for Bitterblossom builds.
Thanks for the response. I've tried most of that other than Start//Finish. The Selfless Spirit and Burrenton Forgetender have always been very underwhelming in practice, despite seeming great on paper (I actually dropped my two spirits for 2 Duress in the board this past week and they did more their first week than Spirit ever did).
I'm still testing the 2-2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Sorin, Solemn Visitor split. I know with a board Sorin is a game ender, but without a board Gideon can take back control and has overperformed recently (granted that's just anecdotal evidence. I know most, if not all, Token players suggest 3 Sorin).
Zealous Persecution I guess I should drop, though it's hard. When it's bad it's worthless, but when it's good it outright wins the game. I'll drop that and maybe a Fatal Push (not sure on this one) to add in the Start//Finish to see how that treats me (I do recall before getting Bitterblossom that Raise the Alarm would often win me the game when the opponent thought they were swinging for lethal and then I got some surprise blockers. Maybe I'll end up loving Start//Finish for the same reason).
Again, thanks for the response. I really don't want to move away from the deck, I've always loved the game plan, but it's been pretty frustrating lately.
Post- board you´d probably also get Hornet Queen, but both do that.
All things considerd, I don´t think any of these options come anywhere close to the utility of Thoughtseize, so I just might get some of those first and then go for fetches afterwards.
If you're looking for good, all-hitting and budget discard option, I can strongly suggest Tidehollow sculler and Castigate. They come out a turn later and are two colored mana each, but we can manage them and they actually exile the card, which is pretty nice. Hell, I still see Tidehollow sculler being ran in a couple of lists.
Thanks for the response. I've tried most of that other than Start//Finish. The Selfless Spirit and Burrenton Forgetender have always been very underwhelming in practice, despite seeming great on paper (I actually dropped my two spirits for 2 Duress in the board this past week and they did more their first week than Spirit ever did).
I'm still testing the 2-2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Sorin, Solemn Visitor split. I know with a board Sorin is a game ender, but without a board Gideon can take back control and has overperformed recently (granted that's just anecdotal evidence. I know most, if not all, Token players suggest 3 Sorin).
I am probably one of those players, altought I can definitely see someone go 2-1, 3-1 or even 2-2. I'm currently 3-0, but for the longest time, I've been running 3-1 and I must admit I kinda miss the guy.
However, the big thing Sorin has that gideon doesn't is the lifegain. There are so many games I should have lost that Sorin's +1 just saved. I often see people side in the Pithing needle just for sorin, which is something that could go to your advantage if you go for a 2/2 split.
Zealous Persecution I guess I should drop, though it's hard. When it's bad it's worthless, but when it's good it outright wins the game. I'll drop that and maybe a Fatal Push (not sure on this one) to add in the Start//Finish to see how that treats me (I do recall before getting Bitterblossom that Raise the Alarm would often win me the game when the opponent thought they were swinging for lethal and then I got some surprise blockers. Maybe I'll end up loving Start//Finish for the same reason).
I can attest that Start // finish is pretty good, not "run a playset" good, but definitely "run a few" good. However, This card takes a Token generator slot, not a removal slot. the built-in removal is nice, but it's first and foremost a token spawner and should be treated as such when building the deck. Try cutting one Spectral procession instead.
Also, for Zealous persecution, you really want to keep one in the main for when you go up against the deck with lots of 1/1. It rocks early game against infect and boogle, plus it can blow-out affinity and Elves if played at the right time, and it can also help us push for game or deal with difficult combat. I tried my list a couple time without, but I always felt like I need at least one. If you're gonna cut it from the main, I recommend to at least keep it in the side.
I really don't want to move away from the deck, I've always loved the game plan, but it's been pretty frustrating lately.
It's kind of normal for this deck since it's very dependend on the meta and how we approach it. I've had months where I keep getting on the podium consistently feeling like my deck is the hottest *****, while other months I felt like a total noob placing almost last consistently with the very same list. This deck can be a real rollercoaster sometimes and it can be hard to not change some cards after a bad night with them. But keep at it. After a few weeks you'll see for yourself the card you like and don't like and it's pretty much a part of why it takes months of testing to say if a card really fits the deck or not.
I really don't want to move away from the deck, I've always loved the game plan, but it's been pretty frustrating lately.
It's kind of normal for this deck since it's very dependend on the meta and how we approach it. I've had months where I keep getting on the podium consistently feeling like my deck is the hottest *****, while other months I felt like a total noob placing almost last consistently with the very same list.
I know the feeling haha. For a period of multiple months after the printing of Fatal Push and subsequent overhaul of my deck, I was pushing a win percentage consistently over 80%. I was on top of the world and could not stop asking myself, "Why aren't more people playing this deck!?"
Then comes the realization that luck has been on your side in a big way, you have only had one Tron matchup the entire time, and half your meta is GBx decks So when your luck turns, a deluge of Elves, Merfolk, and DraziTron gets introduced into your meta, and Affinity beats you four times in a row, it starts to feel kind of rough.
But now I'm happily riding a win percentage up into the low 70's, and the cycle begins again.
The only thing I can think of is replace Raise the Alarm, although I like the lower casting cost of Raise. This would leave me with no turn 2 token producers besides Bitterblossom. My producers would be 1x Bitterblossom, 3x Start // Finish, 4x Lingering Souls, and 4x Spectral Procession. Is that the right way to go?
Hey guys I've been playing this deck for awhile now and this is my current list.
Note I have budget constraints so No Marsh Flats, Bitterblossom or Thoughtseize. I don't like running swamps anyway so Windswept Heath does the same job as flats atm.
So there's the main, I'm not too sold on it but it's doing fine, my main area of concern is my sideboard, I am rather unsure on what to run so I end up changing it way too often.
Six fetches seems the minimum to my mind. Any W fetch is as good as another except for Marsh Flats. Replacing a Godless Shrine and a Caves of Koilos with two Flooded Strand seems reasonable. Without Flats, Swamps would be pretty bad. With Flats, one Swamp is definitely a good idea.
None of your side-board cards are obviously bad choices. One has to pack what the environment calls for. I like Lost Legacy but Fracturing Gust is really good only for maybe Lantern Control and a few other match-ups. It's probably not needed for Affinity as that isn't a bad match-up. Big Elspeth seems like a bad idea at six-mana. Sorcery-speed makes Fragmentize seem questionable too.
Honestly I think that with only 1 Bitterblossom you don´t need the 3 Auriok Champions unless you´re in a SUPER Burn heavy meta, so I´d probably start there.
I´ve also seen quite a few people go down to 3 Spectral Procession, so if you´re uncomfortable cutting the Champions, that might be the right way to go for you.
There are 4 burn players locally. He's although great at blocking Deaths Shadow and Tasigur, and I see some grixis. He's not there to negate bitterblossom, he's there as a wall of protection.
I'll never cut my beloved Spectral Procession
Even if it got banned for some reason I will never take any out!!
See, I actually thought that too for a very long time, but now that I tried a list with only two, I can definitely say that it eases up our mana a lot. It's one of our best generator (and I went back to three almost immediately) but now I'm very hesitant to run the fourth copy, for I have tasted a mana base that doesn't absolutely need three white on turn three all the time, and I strangely like that.
I know Start // finish looks clunky (Believe me I thought very poorly of the card before playing it) but I'd say, give it a try. Even for only one copy and/or for only one night, just to see for yourself. Don't make the mistake of dismissing a card with potential without trying it first.
What about dropping one of the 3 Raise in my mainboard for Start//Finish? That leaves me with 4x Spectral, 4x Lingering, 2x Raise, 1x Bitterblossom, 1x Start//Finish
Also, how often does the Finish half of the card get cast? Most lists run between 6-8 Fatal Push/Path, and 4-7 hand disruption. I feel like we have enougb one drops to remove threats, and that playing Raise and keeping one mana open is just as effective as playing Start//Finish for 3. And although it provides card advantage, don't we already have enough in the form of Lingering Souls flashback, and Windbrisk? I feel like the card would be unnecessary in a Windbrisk build, and more for a build that uses the BW manland?
Also, how often does the Finish half of the card get cast? Most lists run between 6-8 Fatal Push/Path, and 4-7 hand disruption. I feel like we have enougb one drops to remove threats, and that playing Raise and keeping one mana open is just as effective as playing Start//Finish for 3. And although it provides card advantage, don't we already have enough in the form of Lingering Souls flashback, and Windbrisk? I feel like the card would be unnecessary in a Windbrisk build, and more for a build that uses the BW manland?
Eeeh, it really depend on the meta. I'd never say no to more removal or more card advantage, but my meta as a lot of Jund, abzhan and aggro of many kind. If your meta is more control or combo, I'd think less of the card. However, the power in Start // Finish comes from the fact that it's both a removal and a Token generator, and the removal is universal, AKA it can kill anything that doesn't have hexproof or pro-black. Against Eldrazi, grixis (Not that it matters), and titanshift it can go a long way.
Now again, If you just want a good token generator and don't really care for more removal, then off course Raise the alarm and Spectral procession are miles better, and I'd never recommend running Bone splinter in our deck, let alone a costier version. but kind of like Collective brutality, the sum of its parts really make Start // finish a better card than it seem.
Now I'm not saying this card is the second coming of jesus christ and that you have to run 4, but it's definitely worth trying at one or two copies, which I am currently testing right now with somewhat favorable results.
What about dropping one of the 3 Raise in my mainboard for Start//Finish? That leaves me with 4x Spectral, 4x Lingering, 2x Raise, 1x Bitterblossom, 1x Start//Finish
That is also a fair option and probably what I'd go for personally. Just don't forget to threat Start // finish like a token generator and not a removal when replacing stuff. The removal is just gravy. Also, you'd be surprised how relevant the Vigilance is on the token. We don't always have Intangible virtue out. and I probably don't need to sing praise about the instant speed.
PS: I cast the finish half about one time out of three.
Also, how often does the Finish half of the card get cast? Most lists run between 6-8 Fatal Push/Path, and 4-7 hand disruption. I feel like we have enougb one drops to remove threats, and that playing Raise and keeping one mana open is just as effective as playing Start//Finish for 3. And although it provides card advantage, don't we already have enough in the form of Lingering Souls flashback, and Windbrisk? I feel like the card would be unnecessary in a Windbrisk build, and more for a build that uses the BW manland?
Eeeh, it really depend on the meta. I'd never say no to more removal or more card advantage, but my meta as a lot of Jund, abzhan and aggro of many kind. If your meta is more control or combo, I'd think less of the card. However, the power in Start // Finish comes from the fact that it's both a removal and a Token generator, and the removal is universal, AKA it can kill anything that doesn't have hexproof or pro-black. Against Eldrazi, grixis (Not that it matters), and titanshift it can go a long way.
Now again, If you just want a good token generator and don't really care for more removal, then off course Raise the alarm and Spectral procession are miles better, and I'd never recommend running Bone splinter in our deck, let alone a costier version. but kind of like Collective brutality, the sum of its parts really make Start // finish a better card than it seem.
Now I'm not saying this card is the second coming of jesus christ and that you have to run 4, but it's definitely worth trying at one or two copies, which I am currently testing right now with somewhat favorable results.
What about dropping one of the 3 Raise in my mainboard for Start//Finish? That leaves me with 4x Spectral, 4x Lingering, 2x Raise, 1x Bitterblossom, 1x Start//Finish
That is also a fair option and probably what I'd go for personally. Just don't forget to threat Start // finish like a token generator and not a removal when replacing stuff. The removal is just gravy. Also, you'd be surprised how relevant the Vigilance is on the token. We don't always have Intangible virtue out. and I probably don't need to sing praise about the instant speed.
PS: I cast the finish half about one time out of three.
Another option I've been looking at is dropping the mainboard Zealous (doesn't seem as useful as it used to be) and 1 Auriok for 2x Start//Finish. That would leave me no Zealous mainboard, but 14 token producers. 3 Raise, 4 Spectral, 4 Lingering, 1 Bitterblossom, and 2 Start//Finish. There seems like quite a few ways I can fit 1-2 in the board. I've got a playset on order. I just need to choose on a number. And where that number will go.
EDIT: I guess I should throw it out there that a lot of experimentation has landed me on the numbers I'm at now. I like having the 3x Raise because it's the fastest producer and best instant blockers we have. The 1 of Zealous Persecution tends to let an additional 3-6 damage through in combat. Auriok Champion is an amazing, repeatable, blocker against certain decks at best, and a lifegain source that can't be bolted/pushed at worst. Even with only one Bitterblossom, I like the multiples. The one bitterblossom allows me to have the speed and versatility of Raise the Alarm, but still have a way to switch the clock in grindier control matches, if the game goes long enough for me to draw it. I was running 7 disruption, 6 removal, but the printing of Fatal Push and the changing meta pushed me towards switching those numbers. My difficulty isn't in wanting to put Start//Finish in the deck, but I'm feeling reluctancy to tweak/remove any of the list I run now, if that makes sense.
The BW Tokens thread has got to be the single nicest place on this entire forum
Yeah, don't want to hate on other threads, but I definitely want to join in the praise. You guys definitely are nice and very welcoming. I think worst thing that happened there for me is the troll list I totally fell for.
As for your list: Ignoring the landbase, which you are already aware of what to do once you upgrade it... your list is pretty good. I could go for the very nitpicky, but I'd actually play that as it is. The 1-1 Split for Ghost quarter is something I could try myself since I'm running a bit to many basics.
My bad, I had linked the edit page. Thanks for pointing out the problem; it is corrected now. Here is the updated link to the new build:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-07-17-bw-tokens-copy/
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SAME!!! =D
Look at the specific text on my TappedOut link lol:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wb-tokens-soul-sisters-mod-copy-1/
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On another note, would anyone care to put a numerical value on what our odds are in the DraziTron matchup?
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
I believe Eldrazi tron is easier to deal with than any other Tron decks. They run more creature, and we can to a certain extend deal with that better thanks to Path to exile, Runed halo and Blessed alliance. However, it really depend on how many copies of All is dust, oblivion stone and off course Ugin, the spirit dragon they run. Chalice of the void and Walking ballista can be a pain, but both are vulnerable to discard effect. Good thing is, they don't run engineered explosives. Karn liberated is also a big pain since it can blow out any permanent as soon as turn three, or just exile cards from our hand each turn by ticking up 4 counters each time.
If you run a playset of Thoughtseize and run a couple of the classic cards we can run against tron (Ghost quarter, Fulminator mage, Surgical extraction, Pithing Needle) you could have a shot at them. Also, you want to be as aggressive as possible.
Still, it's a 35/65 match-up at best. Possible, but they have the edge because of their various boardwipes and their ability to dodge Fatal push with almost all creatures, or at least the ones we'd like dead. This would also be one of the very few match-up where Dismember is better.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
I think i explained it better in my last post.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Appetite for Brains might be a viable side-board budget option for a Titan and/or Tron infested environment. I rather shudder to mention it and it's probably still not worth a slot even under all these constraints but it would be fun to play! I'm sure someone will give you all the copies you need!
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Round 1 vs Jeskai Control.
Game 1: Draw into about 16 of my 23 lands and lose an extremely long game
Game 2: Turn 2 bitterblossom, win pretty easily
Game 3: Have about 8 tokens on board, thoughtseize, Sorin, Gideon, and intangible virtue in hand. Play thoughtseize to see he has a land and 2 cryptic. Take a cryptic and cast intangible into his cryptic expecting the counter. Planned to win next turn with Sorin. He top decks his single Thundermaw Hellkite (he confirmed it was his only copy after the game) to wipe my board and swing in with lethal on board next turn. I draw nothing and scoop.
Round 2 vs 8-Rack
Game 1: Lose to him having 2 Racks and 1 of the enchantment that does the same thing, my bitterblossom helps him get the final point of damage.
Game 2: Hold all my hand disruption after turn 1 to have discard fodder. Beat him down with tokens.
Game 3: Stick a Gideon wth 2 intangibles out. Make a token and start beating. He pushes the token. I ult Gideon for the emblem, letting me swing for 6 (exactly lethal) next turn to take the round.
Round 3 vs BW Humans
Game 1: win pretty quickly with auriok and bitterblossom out
Game 2: Don't draw gas and he wins right as I'm about to stabilize.
Game 3: Lost what seemed like an unloseable match. Had intangible and 5 2/2 vigilance flyers, he had thraben inspector and a flipped hanweir militia captain. Seems pretty unwinnable for him. Swing to bring him to 2 in 2 attacks after he pushed one of my tokens on the second attack. He's in topdeck and even says "if I don't get lingering souls I can't win". He proceeds to topdeck not 1, but 2 lingering souls in a row while I'm only holding 2 lands and 2 inquisition. He holds off my attacks while his flipped militia captain makes 3 1/1 weenies due to him having 4+ creatures and his end steps. I Keep drawing lands and he finally draws Thalia's Lieutenant while I only have 1 3/3 token on board (got a second intangible) pumping all his dudes and easily swinging for game.
My friend even said to me after "man you seem to lose to unlikely topdecks all the time". It's true. I've lost to singleton sideboard Thundermaws topdecked the turn before I win more times than I'd like to admit. Last week I lost to grixis control in 2 games (one of which I had 2 resolved bitterblossoms!) because he drew snapcaster and 3 of his 4 cryptics both games allowing him to tap down all my tokens and bounce his snapcaster to his hand 4-5 turns in a row and then topdecked flaying tendrils to wipe me. Both games I had more than 10 tokens on board that could do nothing because of chained cryptic. I'm so frustrated with this deck. I always feel like it is at the complete mercy of topdecks and has no consistency due to lack of card draw or filtering. It's been my pet deck for about 3 years (started with the event deck, upgrading over time) but recently I just feel like our game plan gives my openents way too much time to respond and stabilize.
I dunno, I'm really down on the deck. I'm not gonna sell it since it was my intro to modern and I've invested so much time and money into it, but I'm on the verge of retiring it for awhile to try something new -_-
For reference, here's my deck list:
4 concealed courtyard
4 godless shrine
4 marsh flats
1 arid mesa
1 flooded strand
1 windswept heath
2 shambling vent
1 vault of the archangel
3 plains
1 swamp
1 fetid heath
4 spectral procession
4 bitterblossom
4 intangible virtue
1 zealous persecution
2 auriok champion
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 path to exile
4 fatal push
2 Gideon, ally of zendikar
2 Sorin, solemn visitior
2 Rest In Peace
2 stony silence
2 duress
2 timely reinforcement
2 wrath of god
2 disenchant
2 blessed alliance
1 zealous persecution
Nope, not even close.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Thanks for the response. I've tried most of that other than Start//Finish. The Selfless Spirit and Burrenton Forgetender have always been very underwhelming in practice, despite seeming great on paper (I actually dropped my two spirits for 2 Duress in the board this past week and they did more their first week than Spirit ever did).
I'm still testing the 2-2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Sorin, Solemn Visitor split. I know with a board Sorin is a game ender, but without a board Gideon can take back control and has overperformed recently (granted that's just anecdotal evidence. I know most, if not all, Token players suggest 3 Sorin).
Zealous Persecution I guess I should drop, though it's hard. When it's bad it's worthless, but when it's good it outright wins the game. I'll drop that and maybe a Fatal Push (not sure on this one) to add in the Start//Finish to see how that treats me (I do recall before getting Bitterblossom that Raise the Alarm would often win me the game when the opponent thought they were swinging for lethal and then I got some surprise blockers. Maybe I'll end up loving Start//Finish for the same reason).
Again, thanks for the response. I really don't want to move away from the deck, I've always loved the game plan, but it's been pretty frustrating lately.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Plus, if you're looking to have an edge in combat, Zealous persecution is pretty good, and it can also let you dodge smaller sweepers like Pyroclasm and Flaying tendrils.
I am probably one of those players, altought I can definitely see someone go 2-1, 3-1 or even 2-2. I'm currently 3-0, but for the longest time, I've been running 3-1 and I must admit I kinda miss the guy.
However, the big thing Sorin has that gideon doesn't is the lifegain. There are so many games I should have lost that Sorin's +1 just saved. I often see people side in the Pithing needle just for sorin, which is something that could go to your advantage if you go for a 2/2 split.
I can attest that Start // finish is pretty good, not "run a playset" good, but definitely "run a few" good. However, This card takes a Token generator slot, not a removal slot. the built-in removal is nice, but it's first and foremost a token spawner and should be treated as such when building the deck. Try cutting one Spectral procession instead.
Also, for Zealous persecution, you really want to keep one in the main for when you go up against the deck with lots of 1/1. It rocks early game against infect and boogle, plus it can blow-out affinity and Elves if played at the right time, and it can also help us push for game or deal with difficult combat. I tried my list a couple time without, but I always felt like I need at least one. If you're gonna cut it from the main, I recommend to at least keep it in the side.
It's kind of normal for this deck since it's very dependend on the meta and how we approach it. I've had months where I keep getting on the podium consistently feeling like my deck is the hottest *****, while other months I felt like a total noob placing almost last consistently with the very same list. This deck can be a real rollercoaster sometimes and it can be hard to not change some cards after a bad night with them. But keep at it. After a few weeks you'll see for yourself the card you like and don't like and it's pretty much a part of why it takes months of testing to say if a card really fits the deck or not.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
I know the feeling haha. For a period of multiple months after the printing of Fatal Push and subsequent overhaul of my deck, I was pushing a win percentage consistently over 80%. I was on top of the world and could not stop asking myself, "Why aren't more people playing this deck!?"
Then comes the realization that luck has been on your side in a big way, you have only had one Tron matchup the entire time, and half your meta is GBx decks
But now I'm happily riding a win percentage up into the low 70's, and the cycle begins again.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Land (24)
2x Fetid Heath
4x Godless Shrine
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Marsh Flats
4x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windbrisk Heights
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (3)
3x Auriok Champion
Instant (11)
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
3x Raise the Alarm
1x Zealous Persecution
Sorcery (14)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (3)
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Enchantment (5)
1x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
Sideboard (15)
2x Duress
3x Ghostly Prison
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
3x Sundering Growth
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Zealous Persecution
The only thing I can think of is replace Raise the Alarm, although I like the lower casting cost of Raise. This would leave me with no turn 2 token producers besides Bitterblossom. My producers would be 1x Bitterblossom, 3x Start // Finish, 4x Lingering Souls, and 4x Spectral Procession. Is that the right way to go?
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Six fetches seems the minimum to my mind. Any W fetch is as good as another except for Marsh Flats. Replacing a Godless Shrine and a Caves of Koilos with two Flooded Strand seems reasonable. Without Flats, Swamps would be pretty bad. With Flats, one Swamp is definitely a good idea.
None of your side-board cards are obviously bad choices. One has to pack what the environment calls for. I like Lost Legacy but Fracturing Gust is really good only for maybe Lantern Control and a few other match-ups. It's probably not needed for Affinity as that isn't a bad match-up. Big Elspeth seems like a bad idea at six-mana. Sorcery-speed makes Fragmentize seem questionable too.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
BWTokensBW
RWBurnRW
UFaeriesU
I know Start // finish looks clunky (Believe me I thought very poorly of the card before playing it) but I'd say, give it a try. Even for only one copy and/or for only one night, just to see for yourself. Don't make the mistake of dismissing a card with potential without trying it first.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
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Now again, If you just want a good token generator and don't really care for more removal, then off course Raise the alarm and Spectral procession are miles better, and I'd never recommend running Bone splinter in our deck, let alone a costier version. but kind of like Collective brutality, the sum of its parts really make Start // finish a better card than it seem.
Now I'm not saying this card is the second coming of jesus christ and that you have to run 4, but it's definitely worth trying at one or two copies, which I am currently testing right now with somewhat favorable results. That is also a fair option and probably what I'd go for personally. Just don't forget to threat Start // finish like a token generator and not a removal when replacing stuff. The removal is just gravy. Also, you'd be surprised how relevant the Vigilance is on the token. We don't always have Intangible virtue out. and I probably don't need to sing praise about the instant speed.
PS: I cast the finish half about one time out of three.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Another option I've been looking at is dropping the mainboard Zealous (doesn't seem as useful as it used to be) and 1 Auriok for 2x Start//Finish. That would leave me no Zealous mainboard, but 14 token producers. 3 Raise, 4 Spectral, 4 Lingering, 1 Bitterblossom, and 2 Start//Finish. There seems like quite a few ways I can fit 1-2 in the board. I've got a playset on order. I just need to choose on a number. And where that number will go.
EDIT: I guess I should throw it out there that a lot of experimentation has landed me on the numbers I'm at now. I like having the 3x Raise because it's the fastest producer and best instant blockers we have. The 1 of Zealous Persecution tends to let an additional 3-6 damage through in combat. Auriok Champion is an amazing, repeatable, blocker against certain decks at best, and a lifegain source that can't be bolted/pushed at worst. Even with only one Bitterblossom, I like the multiples. The one bitterblossom allows me to have the speed and versatility of Raise the Alarm, but still have a way to switch the clock in grindier control matches, if the game goes long enough for me to draw it. I was running 7 disruption, 6 removal, but the printing of Fatal Push and the changing meta pushed me towards switching those numbers. My difficulty isn't in wanting to put Start//Finish in the deck, but I'm feeling reluctancy to tweak/remove any of the list I run now, if that makes sense.
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As for your list: Ignoring the landbase, which you are already aware of what to do once you upgrade it... your list is pretty good. I could go for the very nitpicky, but I'd actually play that as it is. The 1-1 Split for Ghost quarter is something I could try myself since I'm running a bit to many basics.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)