I'm actually thinking Aven Mindcensor would be a good SB card. The opponent wouldn't expect it, and they usually side out creature removal. In addition to hating on fetches, it hates on:
I've just been really disappointed in Fulminator Mage recently, so I'm thinking of switching to Aven Mindcensor.
besides fetches the card doesnt do much against most of the meta, and with fatal push bolt and path played so heavily currently, chances are it wont stick around long enough to matter much. But i agree about fulminator mage. I never play it. its usually useless, and against tron its usually negligible results. I would rather run Shadow of Doubt, catches people completely off guard and replaces itself. In some situation it is a huge tempo advantage
My thought is my opponent would side out cards like path and fatal push and then wouldn't have an easy time killing Mindcensor.
Usually your opponents can take out a couple removals but they don't have the room to take out everything.
My experience is that fulminaor mages and aven mindcensors are both near useless. For aven, it is not always ideal because you are playing with other 3 mana sorcery card; it is also insult to injury when they find the card they are looking for. We could easily use more impactful sideboard slots for many other matches.
I'm actually thinking Aven Mindcensor would be a good SB card. The opponent wouldn't expect it, and they usually side out creature removal. In addition to hating on fetches, it hates on:
I've just been really disappointed in Fulminator Mage recently, so I'm thinking of switching to Aven Mindcensor.
besides fetches the card doesnt do much against most of the meta, and with fatal push bolt and path played so heavily currently, chances are it wont stick around long enough to matter much. But i agree about fulminator mage. I never play it. its usually useless, and against tron its usually negligible results. I would rather run Shadow of Doubt, catches people completely off guard and replaces itself. In some situation it is a huge tempo advantage
My thought is my opponent would side out cards like path and fatal push and then wouldn't have an easy time killing Mindcensor.
You might be right on that, but the point is that Aven mindcensor doesn't do a lot beside punishing fetching, regardless of wether he's hard to destroy or not. Sure lots of deck have fetches, but lots of fetches will be cracked before the AM even hits the board. Not to mention it takes up a turn where you could have generated tokens if we're talking about "on curve" play. I'm pretty sure I want three tokens over potentially (not guaranteed) mana screwing my opponent. Basically jongsl5 have the right idea here.
also, your opponent has plenty enought time to crack his expedition map before Aven hits the board if we're talking tron. It is a nice counter to titan-shift and nahiri combo though, I'll give you that.
But that just my friendly input, perhaps there is something to the card I am not seeing. If you want land destruction, it's either fulminator mage or Ghost quarter, Having tested both quite a bit, I feel GQ is better. If you're looking to punish Titanshift, Runed halo on a valakut is pretty fun. You can also name Gift ungiven. Can't target you with a card if you got protection from it.
Actually I feel abrupt decay is at its worst right now, which is partly why you see limited copies in dshadow variants. The uncounterability isn't really relevant in modern without splinter twin and many chalice decks. You are using it as removal 90% of the time.
However, decay is a very good sideboard card against problematic cards like liliana hope and ensnaring bridge, while also doubling as removal spells in creature matches. This is the only reason I would ever consider a green splash. The card is honestly kinda pushed because it makes things like sundering growth look bad even out of the side.
Voice is really bad though. Yes it is a creature aligned with the whole make spot removal bad philosophy. The problem is it is so mediocre against non control decks that play mostly at sorcery speed anyways. Your opponent can easily manipulate the board state to prevent a big token from coming out at their leisure. Voice doesn't block well when it needs to and doesn't pressurr when it needs to. Control is pretty dead in modern and will stay that way for a while so don't expect voice to be dominant for a long time.
Yeah, I've been testing my build last night in funsies. Abrupt decay is good, but like you said, it's just extra removal most of the time, and slower than the usual package too at two mana. Voice of resurgence is okay, but not as exceptionnal as I thought it would be. I really thought his */* token would make him threatening, but like you said, opponents always play around it, and mine got pathed almost every time he could be.
Mana Tithes are good against control on the play because we can protect our turn 4 from cryptic. As well as being brutal against tron in the first few turns, which is usually enough. Combined with hand disrution we can set up for huge tempo swings. I got the idea from mtggoldfish BW pox deck, he mana tithed so many people and it was incredible.
I always liked Mana tithe game 1. Not so much game 2/3. Your opponent never sees it comming first time, but usually prepare for the potential second. Still, leaving one white mana open even if we don't have the tithe can really screw with their head, and that's super fun.
Driven/Despair is not a good card for this deck. You're looking at a turn 4+ card that requires a green splash. You might as well play Painful Truths by that point and draw 3 cards regardless of whether you attack (again depending on the board state, not always possible) and be able to cast it on curve. How often do we lose because we didn't have enough card advantage? We lose because we get out'tempoed (either too slow or not enough disruptions) or because we have weaker inevitability (e.g Tron).
Gavony Township is much worse without diluting the manabase around GW (look at Matt Nass's build) or using the typical unstable Abzan midrange mana base. In my experience, this deck often struggles to get to 5 mana which is why I don't even like playing more than 1 Vault of the Archangel. If you add this requirement on top of the fact that you need a green source on the field, it's pretty obvious why this card doesn't belong in traditional token builds.
Eh, kind of what I felt too. If I was to build with green, it would not be because of Driven // Despair. It feels like a winmoar card and does nothing if we are behind. Plus even if you can discard a few card withit, your opponent is always gonna keep the good stuff.
In fact I'm currently testing with the green splash and find Abrupt decay to be quite fantastic. Voice of resurgence is also pretty good and doesn't go against the deck's "Don't turn removal on" attitude. Also, I agree that Gavony township is not that great, and I never played more than one Vault of the archangel either. Plus it's another colorless source when I'm trying to go for a third color. Probably gonna cut gavony altogether.
With that being said, I'm probably gonna try this list next Tuesday and see what happens.
Any noteworthy green cards I should consider for the sideboard? Nothing really strikes at me in green for sideboard.
Without any real Treefolk, how is Murmuring Bosk any good, or better than say filter lands like Fetid Heath if you need the BW option? BTW not sure why it's saying that's my deck....
IDK guys. I still dont see a green splash being better than the usual BW shell. I would only play green if I were to transform the deck to an abzan list, but then the aim of the deck is different.
On the other hand, I have been testing start // finish and I think I am definitely adding it to my deck instead of RtA, at least for a while more. It does basically the same but you get an extra removal for 1 extra mana. True the removal is not the best in the world but the card advantage is the key here (and has been the centre of the last two pages of the forum). Also, the fact that the tokens have vigilance themselves is, more frequently than expected, relevant.
Driven/Despair is not a good card for this deck. You're looking at a turn 4+ card that requires a green splash. You might as well play Painful Truths by that point and draw 3 cards regardless of whether you attack (again depending on the board state, not always possible) and be able to cast it on curve. How often do we lose because we didn't have enough card advantage? We lose because we get out'tempoed (either too slow or not enough disruptions) or because we have weaker inevitability (e.g Tron).
Gavony Township is much worse without diluting the manabase around GW (look at Matt Nass's build) or using the typical unstable Abzan midrange mana base. In my experience, this deck often struggles to get to 5 mana which is why I don't even like playing more than 1 Vault of the Archangel. If you add this requirement on top of the fact that you need a green source on the field, it's pretty obvious why this card doesn't belong in traditional token builds.
Eh, kind of what I felt too. If I was to build with green, it would not be because of Driven // Despair. It feels like a winmoar card and does nothing if we are behind. Plus even if you can discard a few card withit, your opponent is always gonna keep the good stuff.
In fact I'm currently testing with the green splash and find Abrupt decay to be quite fantastic. Voice of resurgence is also pretty good and doesn't go against the deck's "Don't turn removal on" attitude. Also, I agree that Gavony township is not that great, and I never played more than one Vault of the archangel either. Plus it's another colorless source when I'm trying to go for a third color. Probably gonna cut gavony altogether.
With that being said, I'm probably gonna try this list next Tuesday and see what happens.
Any noteworthy green cards I should consider for the sideboard? Nothing really strikes at me in green for sideboard.
Without any real Treefolk, how is Murmuring Bosk any good, or better than say filter lands like Fetid Heath if you need the BW option? BTW not sure why it's saying that's my deck....
Murmuring Bosk is lovely if one can fetch it at EOT. With only four fetches that work with it, it may not be a great call. I was quite enamored of it back when I played Junk - Abzan wasn't a thing then.
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Come on guys, how can you talk about green tokens and not mention THE 3 cmc Token-producing anthem-imitating planeswalker, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar? If Nissa were white or black she'd have been an instant include. If you're playing green, you exhaust the only reason to not have 4 copies of her replacing the spectral processions which are painful to play in a tricolor build.
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I still thing driven despair is full of potential. Granted that i dont have time for playtesting, i only tested against tron and abzan. In abzan it's almost an instant win, in tron this card gives us a breathing room by making opp discards potential 3-4 cards
While I'm liking the idea of splashing green and using Driven // Despair in this deck, I'm still a bit skeptical. It does seem to have decent synergy with our deck and the mana cost is low enough. But is the extra color worth the payoff over something else? It does seem like it might be a bit of a winmoar card. You'd need to establish a board first before you get any use out of it. Which means, best case scenario, we T3 Spectral Procession into this on T4 to get the most out of it. Or at least that's how I see it. We struggle more against decks that hit fast and hard. Is getting card advantage by turn 4+ really gonna help us in those matchups? Don't get me wrong, the idea of swinging in with 3 spirits and having your opponent discard 3 cards is enough to make anyone moist. But eh I'm not totally sold on it helping us much outside the few control decks still around. Which we mostly have comfortable matchups vs anyway.
But I would love to see how you guys do with testing it out. It would be fun to add to a deck regardless.
I've been experimenting with the green splash quite a bit these past two weeks. Let me tell you about what I think of each green card I've tested so far:
Abrupt Decay: Probably the best reason to splash green. If you decide to mainboard it, it's a bit slower than the removal we usually run, but it can deal with things we could not deal with game 1 (**cough**Ensnaring Bridge**cough**). In the sideboard, it puts a lot of cards to shame, namely enchantment/artifact hate. However, it's gonna be creature removal 85%/90% of the time, so the usual package is technically better most of the time. The fact that it can't be countered is also rarely relevent, but it's a plus. I'm gonna put Maelstrom pulse in the same bag, however I found the sorcery speed and the extra mana to be not worth the effort of the upside. I like decay more.
Voice of resurgence: I really wanted this card to be good. I really did, but Jongsl5 is pretty right on the card. It's bad. It's not good at blocking, and the opponent can avoid the token if he plays around it, which happens way more often than I thought it would. From Path to exile to just straight up not dying in combat, most player will take the 2 damage to prevent the token from being there, and 2 damage is not enough to push through alone. I'd rather draw any other token generator.
Gavony township: On paper, this card looks great. On practice... eeh... I like Vault of the archangel way more, and playing both is very hard on the manabase. You just don't want an additional colorless source when you go three colors.
Nissa, Voice of zendikar: GG. This is the biggest downfall of the card. When it's out, it's very good, but the two freakin' green mana make this card so hard to cast in harmony with the rest of your deck.
Driven // Despair: the more I play it, the more it feels like a winmoar card. You need to have a good boardstate for this card to be good, but most of the time, it only secures the win (Quite wonderfully at that). It does not help us to get to the win, nor does it inpact the board or improve our boardstate. I did say earlier that this deck is probably the best deck to enable a card like this, but I am not sold. I don't think this card is what we need. and we almost never cast it before or even on turn 4. also, the ideal play of turn 3 spectral to turn 4 both driven + despair is well, very dependant on drawing the right lands and our opponent not having an answer.
Also, the biggest bad thing if you go three color is that Blue Moon and merfolk will become harder match-ups.
But all that is only with two weeks of testing and obviously, I did not try all these card against all relevant meta decks. consider this my early opinion on the green splash and not facts. Up to now, it's not that great. It's pretty hard to justify splashing green for one/two cards. I don't think it's worth hurting our consistency for slightly better removal or a situational winmoar card.
I still thing driven despair is full of potential. Granted that i dont have time for playtesting, i only tested against tron and abzan. In abzan it's almost an instant win, in tron this card gives us a breathing room by making opp discards potential 3-4 cards
Test it against faster decks, like Infect, affinity or Burn. You'll see the card being a lot worse there. It's very good against midrange/control, but it's practically dead against aggro.
3-1 last night at a weekly competitive event. Beat Skred, Grixis Shadow, and Collected Merfolk, lost to Burn. Was testing with 2 mainboard Start // Finish in place of a pair of Spectral. They'll need more testing but were extremely positive results this far and the utility makes up for the obvious downsides. They're terrible in an aggro shell though and don't begin to think otherwise because of the instant speed. I'm running an extremely controlling build and my updated list is in my signature.
3-1 last night at a weekly competitive event. Beat Skred, Grixis Shadow, and Collected Merfolk, lost to Burn. Was testing with 2 mainboard Start // Finish in place of a pair of Spectral. They'll need more testing but were extremely positive results this far and the utility makes up for the obvious downsides. They're terrible in an aggro shell though and don't begin to think otherwise because of the instant speed. I'm running an extremely controlling build and my updated list is in my signature.
I have also been trying the Start // Finish plan I couldn't agree more. After checking your deck, I can see it goes very much in line with mine. However, I have found (based on the results given by this guy and my own testing), that a couple blessed alliance main instead of two pushes are really good. Don't get me wrong, fatal push is insane, but I believe solves problems, which our deck is not so bad positioned against.
On top of that, I can see you run a full playset of BB. How do they work? I think 2-3 is the way to go but the collective brutalitys certainly help there. Also, a liliana of the veil or 2 seems compulsory for a style like that, I will be getting 2 ASAI have the money for her. Hove you missed a third spectral procession. I get the mana-base restrictions with the GQ (I have them myself) but the card is just nuts even for 4 mana.
3-1 last night at a weekly competitive event. Beat Skred, Grixis Shadow, and Collected Merfolk, lost to Burn. Was testing with 2 mainboard Start // Finish in place of a pair of Spectral. They'll need more testing but were extremely positive results this far and the utility makes up for the obvious downsides. They're terrible in an aggro shell though and don't begin to think otherwise because of the instant speed. I'm running an extremely controlling build and my updated list is in my signature.
I have also been trying the Start // Finish plan I couldn't agree more. After checking your deck, I can see it goes very much in line with mine. However, I have found (based on the results given by this guy and my own testing), that a couple blessed alliance main instead of two pushes are really good. Don't get me wrong, fatal push is insane, but I believe solves problems, which our deck is not so bad positioned against.
On top of that, I can see you run a full playset of BB. How do they work? I think 2-3 is the way to go but the collective brutalitys certainly help there. Also, a liliana of the veil or 2 seems compulsory for a style like that, I will be getting 2 ASAI have the money for her. Hove you missed a third spectral procession. I get the mana-base restrictions with the GQ (I have them myself) but the card is just nuts even for 4 mana.
Only have had the 2/2 Spectral/Start split for a few days so haven't really noticed if I miss the 3rd one. 4 BB is how I've run the deck for over a year and wouldn't change it, the consistency is entirely worth and it's easy enough to board a couple out. Blessed Alliance main just isn't great in my meta but I can see it being good in some cases. If I had the LotV I'd probably find room for them but at the moment I'm happy with my current list.
I still thing driven despair is full of potential. Granted that i dont have time for playtesting, i only tested against tron and abzan. In abzan it's almost an instant win, in tron this card gives us a breathing room by making opp discards potential 3-4 cards
Test it against faster decks, like Infect, affinity or Burn. You'll see the card being a lot worse there. It's very good against midrange/control, but it's practically dead against aggro.
Yeah just tested it against faster deck, it's quite bad to be at hand and needed to be side out fast
i'm gonna try testing it against eldrazi coco and control on sunday
3-1 last night at a weekly competitive event. Beat Skred, Grixis Shadow, and Collected Merfolk, lost to Burn. Was testing with 2 mainboard Start // Finish in place of a pair of Spectral. They'll need more testing but were extremely positive results this far and the utility makes up for the obvious downsides. They're terrible in an aggro shell though and don't begin to think otherwise because of the instant speed. I'm running an extremely controlling build and my updated list is in my signature.
Huh, we're really not far from having the same maindeck. I also tried a single copy of Start // Finish and I must say I'm pleased enough with it. It looked kinda clunky at first, but now I really like it. I may try a second copy too sooner or later.
To me it is good enough to deserve 2 spots. It is so great against burn, combo, and coco decks. I dont think you need more info than that xD. For the flavour, it feels awesome to drain 2 life for the win!
Usually your opponents can take out a couple removals but they don't have the room to take out everything.
My experience is that fulminaor mages and aven mindcensors are both near useless. For aven, it is not always ideal because you are playing with other 3 mana sorcery card; it is also insult to injury when they find the card they are looking for. We could easily use more impactful sideboard slots for many other matches.
also, your opponent has plenty enought time to crack his expedition map before Aven hits the board if we're talking tron. It is a nice counter to titan-shift and nahiri combo though, I'll give you that.
But that just my friendly input, perhaps there is something to the card I am not seeing. If you want land destruction, it's either fulminator mage or Ghost quarter, Having tested both quite a bit, I feel GQ is better. If you're looking to punish Titanshift, Runed halo on a valakut is pretty fun. You can also name Gift ungiven. Can't target you with a card if you got protection from it.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
so that gets Gavony township and Voice of resurgence out of the picture. Do I really want to splash green only for abrupt decay?I was always curious about mardu tokens. The Young pyromancer is definitely interesting, altought prone to removal. We get access to tons of removal, and I mean TONS: Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Terminate, Kolaghan's Command, Crackling doom. I also always wanted to resolve a Crumble to dust against tron.
But I think I'm getting way too excited about splashing colors. Perhaps sticking with two colors is better for consistency's sake.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Without any real Treefolk, how is Murmuring Bosk any good, or better than say filter lands like Fetid Heath if you need the BW option? BTW not sure why it's saying that's my deck....
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
On the other hand, I have been testing start // finish and I think I am definitely adding it to my deck instead of RtA, at least for a while more. It does basically the same but you get an extra removal for 1 extra mana. True the removal is not the best in the world but the card advantage is the key here (and has been the centre of the last two pages of the forum). Also, the fact that the tokens have vigilance themselves is, more frequently than expected, relevant.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Murmuring Bosk is lovely if one can fetch it at EOT. With only four fetches that work with it, it may not be a great call. I was quite enamored of it back when I played Junk - Abzan wasn't a thing then.
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But I would love to see how you guys do with testing it out. It would be fun to add to a deck regardless.
Abrupt Decay: Probably the best reason to splash green. If you decide to mainboard it, it's a bit slower than the removal we usually run, but it can deal with things we could not deal with game 1 (**cough**Ensnaring Bridge**cough**). In the sideboard, it puts a lot of cards to shame, namely enchantment/artifact hate. However, it's gonna be creature removal 85%/90% of the time, so the usual package is technically better most of the time. The fact that it can't be countered is also rarely relevent, but it's a plus. I'm gonna put Maelstrom pulse in the same bag, however I found the sorcery speed and the extra mana to be not worth the effort of the upside. I like decay more.
Voice of resurgence: I really wanted this card to be good. I really did, but Jongsl5 is pretty right on the card. It's bad. It's not good at blocking, and the opponent can avoid the token if he plays around it, which happens way more often than I thought it would. From Path to exile to just straight up not dying in combat, most player will take the 2 damage to prevent the token from being there, and 2 damage is not enough to push through alone. I'd rather draw any other token generator.
Gavony township: On paper, this card looks great. On practice... eeh... I like Vault of the archangel way more, and playing both is very hard on the manabase. You just don't want an additional colorless source when you go three colors.
Nissa, Voice of zendikar: GG. This is the biggest downfall of the card. When it's out, it's very good, but the two freakin' green mana make this card so hard to cast in harmony with the rest of your deck.
Driven // Despair: the more I play it, the more it feels like a winmoar card. You need to have a good boardstate for this card to be good, but most of the time, it only secures the win (Quite wonderfully at that). It does not help us to get to the win, nor does it inpact the board or improve our boardstate. I did say earlier that this deck is probably the best deck to enable a card like this, but I am not sold. I don't think this card is what we need. and we almost never cast it before or even on turn 4. also, the ideal play of turn 3 spectral to turn 4 both driven + despair is well, very dependant on drawing the right lands and our opponent not having an answer.
Also, the biggest bad thing if you go three color is that Blue Moon and merfolk will become harder match-ups.
But all that is only with two weeks of testing and obviously, I did not try all these card against all relevant meta decks. consider this my early opinion on the green splash and not facts. Up to now, it's not that great. It's pretty hard to justify splashing green for one/two cards. I don't think it's worth hurting our consistency for slightly better removal or a situational winmoar card.
TL;DR: I like Abrupt decay and Nissa, Voice of zendikar, but I don't think those alone are worth a green splash.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
I have also been trying the Start // Finish plan I couldn't agree more. After checking your deck, I can see it goes very much in line with mine. However, I have found (based on the results given by this guy and my own testing), that a couple blessed alliance main instead of two pushes are really good. Don't get me wrong, fatal push is insane, but I believe solves problems, which our deck is not so bad positioned against.
On top of that, I can see you run a full playset of BB. How do they work? I think 2-3 is the way to go but the collective brutalitys certainly help there. Also, a liliana of the veil or 2 seems compulsory for a style like that, I will be getting 2 ASAI have the money for her. Hove you missed a third spectral procession. I get the mana-base restrictions with the GQ (I have them myself) but the card is just nuts even for 4 mana.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Only have had the 2/2 Spectral/Start split for a few days so haven't really noticed if I miss the 3rd one. 4 BB is how I've run the deck for over a year and wouldn't change it, the consistency is entirely worth and it's easy enough to board a couple out. Blessed Alliance main just isn't great in my meta but I can see it being good in some cases. If I had the LotV I'd probably find room for them but at the moment I'm happy with my current list.
Yeah just tested it against faster deck, it's quite bad to be at hand and needed to be side out fast
i'm gonna try testing it against eldrazi coco and control on sunday
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
CB has been my go to sideboard card for a long time. It's very versatile and very good against burn. Can be a bad duress for combo match