You know what, I'm gonna copy your list and bring the deck to my local modern event tomorrow. Your list is close to what I usually play and that way I'll be able to give a pretty solid 2-cent on your take on the deck. I just got my hand on a second Liliana of the veil too which I'm not sure what to cut and/or how to integrate her in. I also never gave Collective brutality a fair try yet and that will be a good opportunity to do so.
Thanks a lot for the nice words guys! I have also considered reducing 1 CB because is is sort of the same effect as landing a liliana (only much less powerful, unless against burn) as we need to discard cards to make it work. Before Lili, the CB's were great and I loved them. Now, the picture might change, however, I will start from this baseline and see how it evolves. We do have more discard payoffs than ever with Start / Finish so I think this could perfectly work.
@MisterMuffin21 that is great! I will try to play this friday as well (hopefully the cards will be sent tomorrow and... Friday... we will see) and let you know. Also, I am number 15 now in the Highlander Masters list (my usual store), out of 63 people and everything is thanks to this deck! Cheers to all of you for the help and feedback!
Yup those were the cards. So that's a zoo deck that I've been hearing about eh? Interesting.
I'll look into Pili-Pala.
For BW Tokens as a whole what do you think of Never // Return as an option for removal? I like that it can take out planeswalkers a lot. At the very least it could be a sideboard option right? The Return portion is more than likely just mana flood insurance to have something to cast with otherwise dead mana. Or for those that run Collective Brutality it can be a discard option to preserve virtual card advantage kind of like how Start // Finish is viewed in some builds.
Also I take it Triplicate Spirits is power creeped out of ever being considered again? I noticed it in some old BW tokens builds but it is conspicuously absent from modern (ha) day builds.
Yup those were the cards. So that's a zoo deck that I've been hearing about eh? Interesting.
I'll look into Pili-Pala.
For BW Tokens as a whole what do you think of Never // Return as an option for removal? I like that it can take out planeswalkers a lot. At the very least it could be a sideboard option right? The Return portion is more than likely just mana flood insurance to have something to cast with otherwise dead mana. Or for those that run Collective Brutality it can be a discard option to preserve virtual card advantage kind of like how Start // Finish is viewed in some builds.
Also I take it Triplicate Spirits is power creeped out of ever being considered again? I noticed it in some old BW tokens builds but it is conspicuously absent from modern (ha) day builds.
Triplicate kind of trips itself up. You want to be aggressive with your tokens, not use them for "mana dorks". Tapping 3 spirits probably represents 6 damage not done assuming you have 1 anthem out. If it made 6 spirits it could be a coup de grace but even then, that CMC is still scary. It can get stuck in your hand too, early game. If you're looking for some innovative token makers, you can try Oath of Gideon. I like how it works with our planeswalkers, and I was running a piece for a while before Start//Finish came out.
With regards to planeswalker removal; the best planeswalker removal in the game is creature damage, and we're full of flying ones. Start//Finish is the best tech in terms of removal I've seen lately after Push. It makes tokens, and it comes as a surprise removal out of nowhere just when the opponent thinks your hand is empty.
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As a sidenote: What is the most budget mtg modern deck that counters or even hard counters token decks? My GF likes mtg too but I went overboard with getting something too good and now she just loses all the time which is obviously not fun for her. I'd like to make her a deck that doesn't ding my wallet too much and will make her competitive against at the very least my deck. Bonus points if it doesn't break the bank and it's decently competitive in general against other modern decks. If it helps any, she likes playing control/combo type decks because those are fun for her and she likes lots of black cards and destroying stuff.
There are many others that are effective but maybe not quite as effective. Flaying Tendrils can work very well as long as one's own creatures are x/3 or better. There are other, similar cards including Languish.
Cards with Trample are very effective as well as the value of chump blockers plummets against them. Trample is not that common among B creatures but I'm sure there are some. Phyrexian Obliterator is the only one that come to mind but he's not exactly budget.
Other cards are available in other colors of course. W has many board sweepers that are inexpensive including Day of Judgement. R has many sweepers as well including Pyroclasm.
G has loads of Trample so perhaps something in the Stompy vein might be a good plan. Fast creature decks can be a problem so Elves might be worth a thought.
There's a budget forum that might give better advice.
Never // Return is certainly not a bad card. It has and still does sometimes see play in BWSmallpox Control decks. They are actually not all that different from Toekns, but the differences that do exist make the card much much better for them than it would be for us.
All in all I think it´s a bit slow for us to run. We want to spend our turns 3 and 4 creating a big tokens board and try to close out the game as quickly as possible from there. If we spend 3 mana on a removal that would slow our clock down by at least an entire turn. Not exactly where you want to be, especialy with your more aggressive build imo.
Planeswalkers tend to be relatively easily dealt with by simply attacking them with flying tokens. Bitterblossom helps here of course, so they might be a bit harder to deal with for you at this point.
Triplicate Spirits suffers from a similar problem. 6cmc is simply too much for our deck to handle and if you cast it with convoke it stops your tokens from attacking/blocking which is what you really want to be doing.
Additionally we have a waaaay better version in Spectral Procession. Casting it for WWW is pretty much what our (more so yours than the BB builds, that sometimes cut one) deck should be built around.
Okay that all makes sense. Do you think if I got say 1 Bitterblossom that I could slot it into my build relatively seamlessly? For example replacing the current lone Hero of Bladehold with a single copy of Bitterblossom. Does that seem alright even though I'm running an aggro build? In my view I don't see anything wrong with it.
Yup those were the cards. So that's a zoo deck that I've been hearing about eh? Interesting.
I'll look into Pili-Pala.
For BW Tokens as a whole what do you think of Never // Return as an option for removal? I like that it can take out planeswalkers a lot. At the very least it could be a sideboard option right? The Return portion is more than likely just mana flood insurance to have something to cast with otherwise dead mana. Or for those that run Collective Brutality it can be a discard option to preserve virtual card advantage kind of like how Start // Finish is viewed in some builds.
Also I take it Triplicate Spirits is power creeped out of ever being considered again? I noticed it in some old BW tokens builds but it is conspicuously absent from modern (ha) day builds.
Triplicate kind of trips itself up. You want to be aggressive with your tokens, not use them for "mana dorks". Tapping 3 spirits probably represents 6 damage not done assuming you have 1 anthem out. If it made 6 spirits it could be a coup de grace but even then, that CMC is still scary. It can get stuck in your hand too, early game. If you're looking for some innovative token makers, you can try Oath of Gideon. I like how it works with our planeswalkers, and I was running a piece for a while before Start//Finish came out.
With regards to planeswalker removal; the best planeswalker removal in the game is creature damage, and we're full of flying ones. Start//Finish is the best tech in terms of removal I've seen lately after Push. It makes tokens, and it comes as a surprise removal out of nowhere just when the opponent thinks your hand is empty.
Point taken re: Triplicate Spirits. Oath of Gideon seems cool, nice suggestion.
As a sidenote: What is the most budget mtg modern deck that counters or even hard counters token decks? My GF likes mtg too but I went overboard with getting something too good and now she just loses all the time which is obviously not fun for her. I'd like to make her a deck that doesn't ding my wallet too much and will make her competitive against at the very least my deck. Bonus points if it doesn't break the bank and it's decently competitive in general against other modern decks. If it helps any, she likes playing control/combo type decks because those are fun for her and she likes lots of black cards and destroying stuff.
There are many others that are effective but maybe not quite as effective. Flaying Tendrils can work very well as long as one's own creatures are x/3 or better. There are other, similar cards including Languish.
Cards with Trample are very effective as well as the value of chump blockers plummets against them. Trample is not that common among B creatures but I'm sure there are some. Phyrexian Obliterator is the only one that come to mind but he's not exactly budget.
Other cards are available in other colors of course. W has many board sweepers that are inexpensive including Day of Judgement. R has many sweepers as well including Pyroclasm.
G has loads of Trample so perhaps something in the Stompy vein might be a good plan. Fast creature decks can be a problem so Elves might be worth a thought.
There's a budget forum that might give better advice.
Awesome post this was really helpful. I think I will go the stompy route as I loved playing stompy stuff in ygo and even back when I played mtg long ago I tended to gravitate towards stompy trample centric aggro builds. They're easy to understand, straightforward and decently competitive. Not sure if she'll like it per se but I know I will and well... It's my money and it should win her some games vs me so yeah. Haha.
Make your girlfriend a stompy. I have a pretty bad time handling rancor alone
Yeah like I said above I think this is a likely scenario. I'll be looking into youtube vids of some good builds later on when I have some time and start drafting up a list.
Awesome post this was really helpful. I think I will go the stompy route as I loved playing stompy stuff in ygo and even back when I played mtg long ago I tended to gravitate towards stompy trample centric aggro builds. They're easy to understand, straightforward and decently competitive. Not sure if she'll like
Pleased to be of assistance. And always pleased to encounter actual gratitude.
My personal favorite deck is Obliterock - BG with Rex. I also love Affinity and my Phyrexian Zoo. I haven't ever had much luck with BW tokens and right now some of the cards have been transferred to a crappy standard deck. I will have to remedy that soon.
So, I finally went all in and acquired a few cards... namely Liliana of the Veil and Marsh Flats. This is my "final" (a deck is never fixed) version of BW tokens:
I hope the cards arrive on time for next FNM to try them out. Any comments on the manabase (other than the GQ discussion), and/or on cutting the 4th Spectral Procession are appreciated.
So Went 2-1 yesterday with Diatetone's Decklist Here's the breakdown
Round 1 vs Merfolk (on the Play)[1-2]: Classic merfolk. No introduction needed.
Game 1: I resolved two discard effect, but he still flooded the board. His cursecatcher was problematic has it slowed my token production by 1 turn.
Game 2: He resolved an Aether vial, but I also was able to resolve a Spectral procession turn 3, followed with a intangible virtue turn 4 and a Runed halo, naming one of his duplicate lords.
Game 3: He resolved an Aether vial again. Had to mull to 6 and kept a hand with two Shambling vent. I was able to deal with two of his island enchantments thanks to disenchant, Ghost quarter and a drawn plain. It was a very close game, but he ultimately won by topdecking an echoing truth.
Round 2 vs Merfolk (On the draw) [2-0]: Again, an usual merfolk.
Game 1: He lucked out big time because I discarded his only merfolk that wasn't Silveergill adept and he was stuck with it and two Phantasmal image the whole game. Ghost quarter took care of it's Mutavault
Game 2: He resolved an Aether vial, got a Pithing Needle on his Mutavault and resolved a Wrath of god on a board with five merfolks. He then proceeded to draw lands until I won. I was a bit lucky because if he had enchanted even just one of my land I could have been mana screwed.
Side-in/out: Same as round 1
I can't stress enough how having both a 24 land manabase and three Ghost quarter in the main helped in this match-up. Also, Runed halo is surprisingly effective since they tend to copy their lord with Phantasmal image. I do not think Stony silence is needed, since either a discard (On the play) or Pithing needle takes care of it.
Round 3 vs Eldrazi Tron (On the Draw) [2-0]: Yeah you read it right. But I think the stars aligned for me on this one.
Game 1: Turn 2 he played a walking ballista. he Was also able to resolve a Reality smasher on turn 3. I took care of both with two Path to exile. He then mana flooded like crazy, which made me nervous, but he litteraly drew only land aside from those two and the Matter reshaper I made him discard.
Game 2: Complete opposite. He played nothing the whole game and got stuck at three mana. He showed me his hand and he had only card with CMC 4 or higher in his hand. He was about to draw his fourth Thought-know seer.
Had a pretty good night with the deck. As an initial thought, the first change I'd probably do is swap a Shambling vent with a Godless shrine and remove the Vault of the archangel for a fetch or a plain. I also agree that Collective brutality seem like a weaker version of liliana of the veil, but I don't think I've got myself into match-ups that make the card shine so I'll hold my judgement on the card.
As for the sideboard, I don't think you need Pithing needle AND Stony silence at those numbers. I'd cut one or two of either for something else unless your meta is really heavy on Tron, Affinity and lantern control. Perhaps some lifegain for burn or perhaps your two copies of Collective brutality so you can max out on fatal push and add one of either thoughtseize or a token generator for the mainboard.
Otherwise, pretty neat. I surprisingly had no problems with your amount colorless lands
Hey awesome report. It is great having this kind of super detailed feedback.
I have also considered replacing the 3rd shambling vent with an untapped land. I think I might give it a try as well.
About the SB, again, I believe you have a very solid point there. However, I have found pithing needle to be such a versatile card, that I find it hard to remove. It comes in against PW decks (Eugene something worth naming, definitely), but also against decks with any kind of activated ability. It also great in MU like merfolk, where you want to stop some specific artifact, but the stony is not worth including. On the other hand, since I play 3 stony silences, I see them EVERY time I board them in. It is crazy. Of course, landing one of those makes the game, pretty much.
I believe I could see myself going to 1 pithing needle on the SB and moving a CB there, in favour of an extra TS in the main. However, I will stick with that for now.
To be a bit picky, I dont think running +60 cards decks is a good decision. For example, I believe you could have used 1 less pithing needle against merfolk and go down 1 Lili (or maybe the 2 Lilis for the second needle, I am also open for that). For eldrazi, I would have taken both CB out, and left Sorin in. Also, I like cutting a land against merfolk, but maybe a vent would have been my decision, since the vault can stall long games pretty nicely.
PS: I envy you so much. It seems my cards wont arrive on time for FNM... at least one got to try them.
About the SB, again, I believe you have a very solid point there. However, I have found pithing needle to be such a versatile card, that I find it hard to remove. It comes in against PW decks (Eugene something worth naming, definitely), but also against decks with any kind of activated ability. It also great in MU like merfolk, where you want to stop some specific artifact, but the stony is not worth including. On the other hand, since I play 3 stony silences, I see them EVERY time I board them in. It is crazy. Of course, landing one of those makes the game, pretty much.
I believe I could see myself going to 1 pithing needle on the SB and moving a CB there, in favour of an extra TS in the main. However, I will stick with that for now.
To be honest, I also respect the power of Pithing needle a lot. I'd advise more on cutting one or two Stony silence. lots of people seem to think it's three or nothing, but I don't necessarily agree with that, especially if you're already playing the needle which can fill a similar role, but less wide.
As for a card you'd want to see more, I'd say Rest in Peace is very good to have at 3 in the side. Dredge is not as popular as it was, but gosh Living end is a pretty bad match-up for us. Also, a card that stops both Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster mage along with delve as a whole is pretty great. But then again, it depends on the meta.
To be a bit picky, I dont think running +60 cards decks is a good decision. For example, I believe you could have used 1 less pithing needle against merfolk and go down 1 Lili (or maybe the 2 Lilis for the second needle, I am also open for that). For eldrazi, I would have taken both CB out, and left Sorin in. Also, I like cutting a land against merfolk, but maybe a vent would have been my decision, since the vault can stall long games pretty nicely.
Yeah I was not very sure about what to side exactly. I kinda agree with the choices here.
How did you like the 2 Wrath of Gods in the board?
It´s something I keep thinking about and kinda want to test it, but I never had the chance to do so.
In how many matchups do we actually want wraths?
Well I can tell you they've been pretty useful against Merfolk. You just gotta watch out for potential counterspell and get rid of cursecatcher first. Other than that, any strategy that goes wide or focus on creature could be good, I'm thinking naya zoo and elf, although with elf you gotta get to the fourth land.
I´ve seen many lists doing a split of Bitterblossoms and Raise the Alarm. It works quite well and there is certainly nothing wrong with it. Keep in mind though, that BBs Faerie tokens are black, so they don´t get the buff from Honor of the Pure, which is one of the reasons you don`t usually see that card in the controlish builds.
However to be completely honest it doesn´t feel incredibly efficient for you to get a BB at this point. Sure, it´s a great card, but at this point your deck is still full of little imperfections.
Personally BBs were the yery last upgrade I got for my deck. Everything else came first, because while BB has a very decent replacement in RtA many other important cards don't. First and foremost lands. I woudn´t want you to spend a small fortune on a card like BB when you could improve your deck far more for far less.
Smaller upgrades go a long way. Instead of a single BB you could probably get a better discard suite. Maybe even a Thoughtseize or two. You could massivly upgrade you manabase and replace the 2 Temple of Silence with say Godless Shrines, or get some of the ceahper fetches like Windswept Heath. You could get that 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor and maybe a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar to replace the Hero of Bladehold in your main deck.
I haven´t seen you post one yet, but if you´re struggeling in some matchups a good sideboard goes a long way. There are incredible sideboard staples out there ranging from hate-cards like Stony Silence and Rest in Peace over specific solutions for troublesome matchups like Pithing Needle and Extirpate to amazing and incredibly cheap utility cards like Disenchant, Blessed Alliance, or even something like Lost Legacy.
You could probably build a very decent sideboard completely for far cheaper than a single Bitterblossom and it would help you far more.
Yeah I see your point but buying a Windswept Heath is not nearly as sexy as buying a Bitterblossom haha. I could sub out the Honor of the Pures for Bitterblossoms as I got them but maybe it's not wise to cut down the anthems while increasing the token generation. I like the honor of the pure specifically because it helps me see anthems more consistently.
I will work on getting the final Sorin, Solemn Visitor, that shouldn't be an issue. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is a really interesting choice. How do people that have tested him feel about him? Is a 1 of worth it? I could see him being useful to push that final 5 damage to win game or just help spam the board with tokens. I like that he can also function similar to how I use Sorin, Lord of Innistrad to create an anthem with the emblem.
With regards to the sideboard I've purposefully delayed that as sometimes sideboards can be heavily influenced by local metas. That and the more pressing issue of I'd rather focus on completing the mainboard before I worked on a sideboard. Also this was originally about just playing casually with my friends and I don't think they have sideboards. That said I might start playing in locals because I am really enjoying myself so maybe I will start getting some sideboard staples.
Awesome post this was really helpful. I think I will go the stompy route as I loved playing stompy stuff in ygo and even back when I played mtg long ago I tended to gravitate towards stompy trample centric aggro builds. They're easy to understand, straightforward and decently competitive. Not sure if she'll like
Pleased to be of assistance. And always pleased to encounter actual gratitude.
My personal favorite deck is Obliterock - BG with Rex. I also love Affinity and my Phyrexian Zoo. I haven't ever had much luck with BW tokens and right now some of the cards have been transferred to a crappy standard deck. I will have to remedy that soon.
Obliterock looks really cool but it's way too expensive for what I'm looking for at the time being. Definitely cool though. And yeah I'm grateful because even before I bothered to make an account this thread was extremely helpful in giving me exactly the information I needed to do what I wanted to do. Moreso now that I've made an account and interacted with everyone here directly.
There is where the 2 extraction effects that I play take part. I dont like siding RiP against control decks featuring Snapcaster because it also shuts down our lingering souls, which are awful for them. I prefer to surgical their target and numb snappy. I count 2 RiP and 2 Extraction as 3 "full" GY hate effects.
Stupid question: can we runed halo our bitterblossom not to lose life? it says "you" but not sure if that counts as target.
I don´t think so, because it`s "lose 1 life" and not "deals 1 damage".
Then again I´m not a judge by any means, so maybe post this in the rules question forum for a better answer?
You are right, it does not help. The object with protection cannot be:
- Damaged by sources with the specified quality. (All such damage is prevented.)
- Enchanted or equipped by permanents with the specified quality.
- Blocked by creatures with the specified quality.
- Targeted by spells with the specified quality, or by abilities from sources of that quality.
Since Bitterblossom does not target or deal damage (both things that protection stops), Runed Halo will have no effect on it. stopping losing of life is not included in protection.
I know that it´s not as sexy, but it`s very important to build a good foundation for your deck. You could have the most amazing BGx Midrange with 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Liliana of the Veil and a ton of other expensive cards, but if your manabase consists of a couple of Foul Orchards and Temple of Maladys you´re not going to be very happy with that deck, trust me.
Another point that might be worth considering is, that if we´re talking about casual play here Bitterblossom could be a real problem card. If your meta consists of a bunch of slower Aggro and Midrange lists, (which casual groups often do) there is a good chance that these kind of decks can´t beat a resolved BB. It really shines at destroying these kind of decks, leading to for example our excelent Jund/Abzan matchup.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is a very solid card. I had him as a 1-of since the very start of my BW Tokens journey and I don´t regret taking him along.
He is a boardstate of his own and really shines in the slower, grindy kind of matchups. If you´re up against a lot of control or midrange decks, definitly try him, if you´re in a combo-heavy meta or a very very aggressive one, he won´t be able to shine to his fullest capabilities.
Sideboards are really really important. I get that you don´t feel like you need one at this point, and it might be right that you don´t in your particular playgroup. However if you already have a decent matchup against all of them, I would really NOT advise you to get anywhere near Bitterblossom, because at that point they really woudn´t stand a chance.
Imagine you go play at a store and in your first game your opponent drops a Ensnaring Bridge on turn 3. On turn 4 he goes down to 0 cards in hand and will from this point on play whatever card he draws every turn. That game is lost for you. You can´t perform a turn 3 kill with our deck and you don't have a way to destroy his bridge.
If you have a sideboard you can bring in Disenchant, Anguished Unmaking or other cards that would help. Without one you can forfeit the entire match.
Next up you´re against Storm, on turn 4 they play Gifts Ungiven and proceed to do the Storm thing until they Grapeshot you for 20 the same turn. (Hard to imagine if you´ve never seen it, but they can actually do it earlier aswell....)
Same problem as before, you can´t kill them before turn 4, so you´re kinda dead. Sure, if you have a good Discard spell and hit exactly the right piece, you might delay them to turn 5 or 6, but are you really confident that you can kill them by then?
With a sideboard you could bring in Lost Legacy and Surgical Extraction//Extirpate to get rid of problematic cards and actaully stand a chance.
I don´t want to make this too long, but similar scenarios can easily be imagined for decks like Titanshift, Amulet Tiatn, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Ad Nauseam and Counter's Company.
Sideboards are really important and they don´t even have to be so expensive that they would delay the progress of your main deck. Let me quicky throw one togehter that you could get for just a few bucks that would cover a decent amount or probematic cards and invole your Hero of Bladehold.
3x Nihil Spellbomb (for Dredge, Storm, Living End etc.) 2x Duress (for Storm and mostly other Combo) 1x Pithing Needle (for Tron) 3x Disenchant (mostly for Bridges in Lantern Ctrl and Affinity) 2x Blessed Alliance (E-Tron and Bogles) 2x Lost Legacy (for problematic cards vs any kind of Combo) 1x Anguished Unmaking (universal answer mostly also for Bridges and big Tron guys) 1x Hero of Bladehold (great after your opponents boarded out removal)
I didn't mean to imply I didn't value sideboards. I know they're extremely important for competitive play. My line of thinking was that I would most likely not be playing competitive soon so I can delay the sideboard, especially since I didn't want to divert funds from the maindeck to do the side deck.
Thanks for brewing up a cheap list for me though, I'll definitely use that as a starting point.
yeah. My question was more about whether "you" is considered as targeting.
Ahh, I understand. My bad.
No, it must specifically say "target" to be considered targeting. The "you lose life" works kind of in the same round-about way that clone does, not targeting, and is able to copy things with hexproof, shroud, or protection.
There is where the 2 extraction effects that I play take part. I dont like siding RiP against control decks featuring Snapcaster because it also shuts down our lingering souls, which are awful for them. I prefer to surgical their target and numb snappy. I count 2 RiP and 2 Extraction as 3 "full" GY hate effects.
Missed that. It's actually a good reason and I remember that being discussed here a while ago. Plus, With all that discard effect and mainboard Ghost quarter, finding a good target is easy.
Is there a particular reason that you ran a split between Surgical extraction and Extirpate? Running two Surgical seem better for potential turn 1 shenanigans, but perhaps I'm missing something important with the Split second?
got a free fatal push for attending a magic event tonight.
That was pretty awesome. Dropped a start // finish for it. It's probably not as good for me because I don't have the fetchs to make the revolt live but whatever it's a good card and I like the promo art.
I did not get Disenchant because I already knew about Sundering Growth and I wanted that instead. I also got more than 15 sideboard cards total because I figure it's going to need some tweaking anyways and there were some judgment calls and the cards were like 20 cents so I was like whatever.
I'll probably use some of these that I already own:
The main thing now is going to be learning what to board out and in against who and what. That's going to be a long and arduous learning curve I'm sure.
On another sidenote, I ended up buying all the cards for mono green stompy (I figured if I'm already paying for shipping I might as well get everything in one go). Not a lot of money spent considering it's magic but it's a decent chunk of change that I dropped on it. I think I'll be happy with it I think the deck plays a lot like how I like. I think the synergy between Experiment One and the rest of the cards is pretty cool and Aspect of Hydra seems like a pretty damn strong card. I hope I don't regret this decision...
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Thanks a lot for the nice words guys! I have also considered reducing 1 CB because is is sort of the same effect as landing a liliana (only much less powerful, unless against burn) as we need to discard cards to make it work. Before Lili, the CB's were great and I loved them. Now, the picture might change, however, I will start from this baseline and see how it evolves. We do have more discard payoffs than ever with Start / Finish so I think this could perfectly work.
@MisterMuffin21 that is great! I will try to play this friday as well (hopefully the cards will be sent tomorrow and... Friday... we will see) and let you know. Also, I am number 15 now in the Highlander Masters list (my usual store), out of 63 people and everything is thanks to this deck! Cheers to all of you for the help and feedback!
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I'll look into Pili-Pala.
For BW Tokens as a whole what do you think of Never // Return as an option for removal? I like that it can take out planeswalkers a lot. At the very least it could be a sideboard option right? The Return portion is more than likely just mana flood insurance to have something to cast with otherwise dead mana. Or for those that run Collective Brutality it can be a discard option to preserve virtual card advantage kind of like how Start // Finish is viewed in some builds.
Also I take it Triplicate Spirits is power creeped out of ever being considered again? I noticed it in some old BW tokens builds but it is conspicuously absent from modern (ha) day builds.
Triplicate kind of trips itself up. You want to be aggressive with your tokens, not use them for "mana dorks". Tapping 3 spirits probably represents 6 damage not done assuming you have 1 anthem out. If it made 6 spirits it could be a coup de grace but even then, that CMC is still scary. It can get stuck in your hand too, early game. If you're looking for some innovative token makers, you can try Oath of Gideon. I like how it works with our planeswalkers, and I was running a piece for a while before Start//Finish came out.
With regards to planeswalker removal; the best planeswalker removal in the game is creature damage, and we're full of flying ones. Start//Finish is the best tech in terms of removal I've seen lately after Push. It makes tokens, and it comes as a surprise removal out of nowhere just when the opponent thinks your hand is empty.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
She should invest in some anti-token cards such as Illness in the Ranks or Virulent Plague. Engineered Explosives is also good but not budget.
There are many others that are effective but maybe not quite as effective. Flaying Tendrils can work very well as long as one's own creatures are x/3 or better. There are other, similar cards including Languish.
Cards with Trample are very effective as well as the value of chump blockers plummets against them. Trample is not that common among B creatures but I'm sure there are some. Phyrexian Obliterator is the only one that come to mind but he's not exactly budget.
Other cards are available in other colors of course. W has many board sweepers that are inexpensive including Day of Judgement. R has many sweepers as well including Pyroclasm.
G has loads of Trample so perhaps something in the Stompy vein might be a good plan. Fast creature decks can be a problem so Elves might be worth a thought.
There's a budget forum that might give better advice.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Okay that all makes sense. Do you think if I got say 1 Bitterblossom that I could slot it into my build relatively seamlessly? For example replacing the current lone Hero of Bladehold with a single copy of Bitterblossom. Does that seem alright even though I'm running an aggro build? In my view I don't see anything wrong with it.
Point taken re: Triplicate Spirits. Oath of Gideon seems cool, nice suggestion.
Awesome post this was really helpful. I think I will go the stompy route as I loved playing stompy stuff in ygo and even back when I played mtg long ago I tended to gravitate towards stompy trample centric aggro builds. They're easy to understand, straightforward and decently competitive. Not sure if she'll like it per se but I know I will and well... It's my money and it should win her some games vs me so yeah. Haha.
Yeah like I said above I think this is a likely scenario. I'll be looking into youtube vids of some good builds later on when I have some time and start drafting up a list.
Thanks everyone.
Pleased to be of assistance. And always pleased to encounter actual gratitude.
My personal favorite deck is Obliterock - BG with Rex. I also love Affinity and my Phyrexian Zoo. I haven't ever had much luck with BW tokens and right now some of the cards have been transferred to a crappy standard deck. I will have to remedy that soon.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Round 1 vs Merfolk (on the Play)[1-2]: Classic merfolk. No introduction needed.
Game 1: I resolved two discard effect, but he still flooded the board. His cursecatcher was problematic has it slowed my token production by 1 turn.
Game 2: He resolved an Aether vial, but I also was able to resolve a Spectral procession turn 3, followed with a intangible virtue turn 4 and a Runed halo, naming one of his duplicate lords.
Game 3: He resolved an Aether vial again. Had to mull to 6 and kept a hand with two Shambling vent. I was able to deal with two of his island enchantments thanks to disenchant, Ghost quarter and a drawn plain. It was a very close game, but he ultimately won by topdecking an echoing truth.
Side-in: 2x Wrath of god, 2x Pithing needle, 2x Disenchant, 2x Runed halo
Side-out: 2x Collective brutality, 1x Vault of the Archangel, 1x Sorin, solemn visitor, 2x Thoughtseize (for a 62 card deck)
Round 2 vs Merfolk (On the draw) [2-0]: Again, an usual merfolk.
Game 1: He lucked out big time because I discarded his only merfolk that wasn't Silveergill adept and he was stuck with it and two Phantasmal image the whole game. Ghost quarter took care of it's Mutavault
Game 2: He resolved an Aether vial, got a Pithing Needle on his Mutavault and resolved a Wrath of god on a board with five merfolks. He then proceeded to draw lands until I won. I was a bit lucky because if he had enchanted even just one of my land I could have been mana screwed.
Side-in/out: Same as round 1
I can't stress enough how having both a 24 land manabase and three Ghost quarter in the main helped in this match-up. Also, Runed halo is surprisingly effective since they tend to copy their lord with Phantasmal image. I do not think Stony silence is needed, since either a discard (On the play) or Pithing needle takes care of it.
Round 3 vs Eldrazi Tron (On the Draw) [2-0]: Yeah you read it right. But I think the stars aligned for me on this one.
Game 1: Turn 2 he played a walking ballista. he Was also able to resolve a Reality smasher on turn 3. I took care of both with two Path to exile. He then mana flooded like crazy, which made me nervous, but he litteraly drew only land aside from those two and the Matter reshaper I made him discard.
Game 2: Complete opposite. He played nothing the whole game and got stuck at three mana. He showed me his hand and he had only card with CMC 4 or higher in his hand. He was about to draw his fourth Thought-know seer.
Side-in: 2x Pithing needle, 2x Runed halo, 1x Surgical extraction, 1x Extirpate, 3x Stony silence
Side-out: 4x Inquisition of Kozilek, 3x Fatal push, 1x Sorin, Solemn visitor (for a 61 card deck)
Had a pretty good night with the deck. As an initial thought, the first change I'd probably do is swap a Shambling vent with a Godless shrine and remove the Vault of the archangel for a fetch or a plain. I also agree that Collective brutality seem like a weaker version of liliana of the veil, but I don't think I've got myself into match-ups that make the card shine so I'll hold my judgement on the card.
As for the sideboard, I don't think you need Pithing needle AND Stony silence at those numbers. I'd cut one or two of either for something else unless your meta is really heavy on Tron, Affinity and lantern control. Perhaps some lifegain for burn or perhaps your two copies of Collective brutality so you can max out on fatal push and add one of either thoughtseize or a token generator for the mainboard.
Otherwise, pretty neat. I surprisingly had no problems with your amount colorless lands
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
I have also considered replacing the 3rd shambling vent with an untapped land. I think I might give it a try as well.
About the SB, again, I believe you have a very solid point there. However, I have found pithing needle to be such a versatile card, that I find it hard to remove. It comes in against PW decks (Eugene something worth naming, definitely), but also against decks with any kind of activated ability. It also great in MU like merfolk, where you want to stop some specific artifact, but the stony is not worth including. On the other hand, since I play 3 stony silences, I see them EVERY time I board them in. It is crazy. Of course, landing one of those makes the game, pretty much.
I believe I could see myself going to 1 pithing needle on the SB and moving a CB there, in favour of an extra TS in the main. However, I will stick with that for now.
To be a bit picky, I dont think running +60 cards decks is a good decision. For example, I believe you could have used 1 less pithing needle against merfolk and go down 1 Lili (or maybe the 2 Lilis for the second needle, I am also open for that). For eldrazi, I would have taken both CB out, and left Sorin in. Also, I like cutting a land against merfolk, but maybe a vent would have been my decision, since the vault can stall long games pretty nicely.
PS: I envy you so much. It seems my cards wont arrive on time for FNM...
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
As for a card you'd want to see more, I'd say Rest in Peace is very good to have at 3 in the side. Dredge is not as popular as it was, but gosh Living end is a pretty bad match-up for us. Also, a card that stops both Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster mage along with delve as a whole is pretty great. But then again, it depends on the meta.
Yeah I was not very sure about what to side exactly. I kinda agree with the choices here.
Well I can tell you they've been pretty useful against Merfolk. You just gotta watch out for potential counterspell and get rid of cursecatcher first. Other than that, any strategy that goes wide or focus on creature could be good, I'm thinking naya zoo and elf, although with elf you gotta get to the fourth land.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Yeah I see your point but buying a Windswept Heath is not nearly as sexy as buying a Bitterblossom haha. I could sub out the Honor of the Pures for Bitterblossoms as I got them but maybe it's not wise to cut down the anthems while increasing the token generation. I like the honor of the pure specifically because it helps me see anthems more consistently.
I will work on getting the final Sorin, Solemn Visitor, that shouldn't be an issue. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is a really interesting choice. How do people that have tested him feel about him? Is a 1 of worth it? I could see him being useful to push that final 5 damage to win game or just help spam the board with tokens. I like that he can also function similar to how I use Sorin, Lord of Innistrad to create an anthem with the emblem.
With regards to the sideboard I've purposefully delayed that as sometimes sideboards can be heavily influenced by local metas. That and the more pressing issue of I'd rather focus on completing the mainboard before I worked on a sideboard. Also this was originally about just playing casually with my friends and I don't think they have sideboards. That said I might start playing in locals because I am really enjoying myself so maybe I will start getting some sideboard staples.
Obliterock looks really cool but it's way too expensive for what I'm looking for at the time being. Definitely cool though. And yeah I'm grateful because even before I bothered to make an account this thread was extremely helpful in giving me exactly the information I needed to do what I wanted to do. Moreso now that I've made an account and interacted with everyone here directly.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
You are right, it does not help. The object with protection cannot be:
- Damaged by sources with the specified quality. (All such damage is prevented.)
- Enchanted or equipped by permanents with the specified quality.
- Blocked by creatures with the specified quality.
- Targeted by spells with the specified quality, or by abilities from sources of that quality.
Since Bitterblossom does not target or deal damage (both things that protection stops), Runed Halo will have no effect on it. stopping losing of life is not included in protection.
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I didn't mean to imply I didn't value sideboards. I know they're extremely important for competitive play. My line of thinking was that I would most likely not be playing competitive soon so I can delay the sideboard, especially since I didn't want to divert funds from the maindeck to do the side deck.
Thanks for brewing up a cheap list for me though, I'll definitely use that as a starting point.
Ahh, I understand. My bad.
No, it must specifically say "target" to be considered targeting. The "you lose life" works kind of in the same round-about way that clone does, not targeting, and is able to copy things with hexproof, shroud, or protection.
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
Is there a particular reason that you ran a split between Surgical extraction and Extirpate? Running two Surgical seem better for potential turn 1 shenanigans, but perhaps I'm missing something important with the Split second?
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
That was pretty awesome. Dropped a start // finish for it. It's probably not as good for me because I don't have the fetchs to make the revolt live but whatever it's a good card and I like the promo art.
I did not get Disenchant because I already knew about Sundering Growth and I wanted that instead. I also got more than 15 sideboard cards total because I figure it's going to need some tweaking anyways and there were some judgment calls and the cards were like 20 cents so I was like whatever.
I'll probably use some of these that I already own:
The main thing now is going to be learning what to board out and in against who and what. That's going to be a long and arduous learning curve I'm sure.
For the maindeck I picked up a 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor and a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Gideon might not be Bitterblossom but he's still sexier (and cheaper) than Godless Shrine.
On another sidenote, I ended up buying all the cards for mono green stompy (I figured if I'm already paying for shipping I might as well get everything in one go). Not a lot of money spent considering it's magic but it's a decent chunk of change that I dropped on it. I think I'll be happy with it I think the deck plays a lot like how I like. I think the synergy between Experiment One and the rest of the cards is pretty cool and Aspect of Hydra seems like a pretty damn strong card. I hope I don't regret this decision...