I tried it against multiple matchups
it is super great against midrange combo and control
it is strictly worse against faster decks
in my case i only splash green for 1 driven despair main and another 1 side
I was kind of on the fence regarding whether to play one or two copies mainboard. I think I am going to move one over to the SB as well and move one copy of Zealous back to the Main.
The cars seems to be REALLY good when it works in games like against Grixis Control etc., I have had games in playtesting in which I haven't drawn into a single fetch to grab Temple Garden, which makes me wonder if the small splash can potentially be a little clunky at times.
I get that it's a winmore card, but once you can secure even 1 time, you can just go all in. the despair side gives menace as well, which is good when you are on board stall, even if that doesnt happen regularly.
For land base, i havent found a bit clunky-ness whenever i tested it.
Anybody has a thought on my list? expecting burns, 1-2 tron, 1-2 blue based control, some affinity, some shadow, and some janky decks
I dont really like the ghost quarter in the side. I understand that in a three color build, the mana-base is tighter to include them main, but still... Also, maybe you would need some more early hand-disruption(?), I mean, 6 is fine, but if you expect burn, tron, and control decks, I could see a collective brutality taking the place of the 3rd fatal push. We are pretty mid-range-y, and versatile cards are just so powerful in our type of deck. I get that driven // despair does count here, but it plays a later role.
Other than that, the list seems pretty solid to me, good luck!
PD: maybe you could consider including a link to your list in your signature. This way, it is easier for people to check your list without having to search in the thread
SADLY i dont know how to do that :(((
RECENTLY i just got 2 lili otv borrowed from my friend, so do you have any good control version of the deck? might consider your list as well
as much as i expect slow deck, i dont really like 7 disruptions. it just doesnt feel right with me. Dont get me wrong, i love disruptions to the point that i have tried full 8 team, but i dont know :/
As for ghost quarter, i plan on siding out 2 fetch and some spectral. still including driven despair cause the card is so damn good against tron, i want to put the other 1 in postboard
If you count the brutalities I am running 9 hand-disrupting spells, so... yeah... I like them xD. If you want to try the lilis consider this build as a reference. Then you could include your driven // despair instead of a collective brutality and replace the 2 blessed alliance with 2 fatal push, if you like them better.
I get that in general Sorin, Solemn Visitor is better in our deck because it buffs our tokens up to insane ammounts and helps stabilize in the aggressive matchups, but on an empty board Gideon seems way more impactful. His token ability doesn't cost any loyality and he can put our opponents on quite the fast clock all by himself.
Recently I´ve seen these B/W Smallpox lists do really well and they play 3 or even 4 Gideons. It made me think about why almost all our lists only play 1 or even 0.
What are your thoughts on this?
Sure, you can run more than one Gideon. I run two (as well as two Sorin). You just get to the question of balance. How many four drops can you afford to have in the deck and not get too many too often? It is generally considered 3-4 in a 23 land build but could be more for a 24 land build. Then you just have to decide what amount of Gideon vs. Sorin you want. Sorin is generally considered a better fit for our deck (hence why you see lists with more or only Sorins) but I love Gideon in it as well. I split 2-2 for my build (23 lands)
I get that in general Sorin, Solemn Visitor is better in our deck because it buffs our tokens up to insane ammounts and helps stabilize in the aggressive matchups, but on an empty board Gideon seems way more impactful. His token ability doesn't cost any loyality and he can put our opponents on quite the fast clock all by himself.
Recently I´ve seen these B/W Smallpox lists do really well and they play 3 or even 4 Gideons. It made me think about why almost all our lists only play 1 or even 0.
What are your thoughts on this?
BW Tokens runs about three times as many token-producing spells as BW Smallpox, so Sorin, Solemn Visitor has more value in our deck because of his synergy with tokens that are already on the board. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar's usefulness is somewhat different in our deck than it is in BW Smallpox. In general, his anthem ability has higher value in BW Tokens, while his +1 Beatdown ability has more value in BW Smallpox. Both decks benefit similarly from his Token-producing ability.
There is essentially consensus that four 4-drops is the most you want to run in BW Tokens. BW Smallpox can sustain slightly more for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here. So we are faced with the question of which cards are most valuable to our deck in the 4-drop slot. I would argue that Sorin is the most valuable 4-drop for Tokens, but there are diminishing returns as you increase the number in the deck because of redundancy and the Legendary Rule. Gideon is also a high value card in our deck, so the question then becomes where you strike a balance. I think most would agree that the best card combinations to run in the 4-drop slot are 3 Sorin / 1 Gideon and 2 Sorin / 2 Gideon. For some 23 land builds, 3 Sorin / 0 Gideon and 2 Sorin / 1 Gideon are also reasonable.
Gideon is an extremely valuable card in BW Smallpox because they generally only run four token-producing spells (Lingering Souls), so he often acts as the aggressor in controlling the board state. Because we tend to maintain a more active board state than BW Smallpox, Gideon is not quite as important of a card to us as it is for them.
Has anyone tried devout lightcaster as a SB card? It seems great against Grixis Death's Shadow, and our deck need triple white on turn 3 for procession anyway.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I personally would never go below two Gideon. He's just such an impactful card in any even remotely grindy situation. Sorin is good when you have a board state, but Gideon is a board state all on his own.
I'm currently on a 2/2/1 split between Sorin/Gideon/Liliana, but actually considering changing it to 1/2/2. Sorin is the best card in our deck in the right situation - he's part of our nut draw - but he's really bad behind when compared to Gideon/Lily. Gideon is also just way more versatile.
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"Home isn't where you rest. It's what you fight for."
Hi to all , Yesterday i went 3-3 a pptq with 67 people, 1-2 with bant knightfall ,g1 win by spectrall procesion race suported by Zealous persecution and intangible virtue , g2 lost by knight combo , i missed the chance to pte him in my turn he untapped and i forgot about sejiri steppe ,g3 screwd ... ;turn 2 2-0 against affo , i did the usually things and he lost to a resolved lingering souls and a pte on master of aetherium , turn 3 0-2 eldra-tron , g1 i take him to 2 life but i didn t find any virtue or tokens generator for 4 turns only lands yee ... g2 i mulled to 5 'cause i didn t find any lands ... ;turn 4 i 2-0 burn preaty easy tnx sorin , turn 5 i died 0-2 burn , it was all my fault i was 13 life he had 1 card in hand , i decided to run with shambling vent instead waiting , i had Zealous persecution in my hand and 2 more lands ... g2 i missed some plays i were too tired ;turn 6 i fought another affo and i ended 2-0 , the best part was when he learned about my sundering growth ,he doesn't even knew her existence lol.
sooo last 2 word about this event, if i was a better player probably i could get in top 8 ,on room (i don t know if you english speaker use this slang lol -in sala *ita ) were uwr shaeli,affo burn , eldra tron , shadow in all their forms and uwx controls , so our only bad mu was eldra tron ;i also found the we dont have a real good tokens generaton on turn 2 , i tried both raise the allarm and bitterblossom but only spectral and lingering made my victories , collective brutality was an all star so so good ,basically is our liliana to discard bad things and do something cool so here my list .
as Always tnx reading and pardon my bad english XP.
This looks much better now. I would still take the selfless spirit out, for something like duress, but they are not bad either (just personal preference). Not sure either about that murderous cut, maybe a third fatal push?
The rest seems legit. I have never tried a gideon before, I might give it a try this week.
I had a horrible FNM last week going 1-3. I lost to GR Ponza, Kiki Ascendancy, and some tuned 4-color DS. I won last round against infect.
I played horribly and the deck was not at its best, to be fair. But anyway, some conclusions:
- Blessed alliance is too clunky for MB. There were 2 people playing eldrazi tron, but still, I am taking them out. I really missed the third fatal push (mostly because every matchup I played had a turn 1 creature, from which mana dorks are the most annoying).
I wouldn't run Torpor Orb in the board. I actually had this discussion with someone at FNM last Friday - Torpor Orb is kind of a trap. You put it in your sideboard expecting it to be a house, but it never really does much of anything, certainly not enough to be worth a slot. Look at the tier one decks in Modern right now and think about what it really hits. Only hits Snapcaster Mage in Death's Shadow, and it's not worth a full card to shut that down. Hits stone cold nothing in Affinity and Burn. Only hits TKS in Eldrazi Tron, which, again, isn't worth a full card. It's not worth a slot to shut down abilities like that, since they still get the body. Your Eldrazi Tron opponent will be very happy to see you drop a do-nothing card like that. It'll never win you a game, likely never make you not lose one either, and in 90% of matchups you'll be looking at it in your sideboard between rounds thinking "why did I put this in here?". Take it from someone who's tried it herself.
IMO you absolutely need Rest in Peace over Nihil Spellbomb. Yes, it shuts off your own Lingering Souls and Start // Finish, but you still get value off of them, and Rest in Peace is so much more effective when it needs to be than any Spellbomb, Relic, etc. effects. I'd also run Lost Legacy or something over Stain the Mind if you really need that effect; the earliest you're going to be able to cast Stain is turn four, which is pretty slow. I don't think it's an effect that should be run at all, though, unless you're in a heavy Ad Naus meta.
I'm also a huge advocate of Disenchant over Sundering Growth, mainly because of Blood Moon. You can reliably access the single white to kill a Blood Moon from under it, but not the double white for Sundering Growth.
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"Home isn't where you rest. It's what you fight for."
I wouldn't run Torpor Orb in the board. I actually had this discussion with someone at FNM last Friday - Torpor Orb is kind of a trap. You put it in your sideboard expecting it to be a house, but it never really does much of anything, certainly not enough to be worth a slot. Look at the tier one decks in Modern right now and think about what it really hits. Only hits Snapcaster Mage in Death's Shadow, and it's not worth a full card to shut that down. Hits stone cold nothing in Affinity and Burn. Only hits TKS in Eldrazi Tron, which, again, isn't worth a full card. It's not worth a slot to shut down abilities like that, since they still get the body. Your Eldrazi Tron opponent will be very happy to see you drop a do-nothing card like that. It'll never win you a game, likely never make you not lose one either, and in 90% of matchups you'll be looking at it in your sideboard between rounds thinking "why did I put this in here?". Take it from someone who's tried it herself.
IMO you absolutely need Rest in Peace over Nihil Spellbomb. Yes, it shuts off your own Lingering Souls and Start // Finish, but you still get value off of them, and Rest in Peace is so much more effective when it needs to be than any Spellbomb, Relic, etc. effects. I'd also run Lost Legacy or something over Stain the Mind if you really need that effect; the earliest you're going to be able to cast Stain is turn four, which is pretty slow. I don't think it's an effect that should be run at all, though, unless you're in a heavy Ad Naus meta.
I'm also a huge advocate of Disenchant over Sundering Growth, mainly because of Blood Moon. You can reliably access the single white to kill a Blood Moon from under it, but not the double white for Sundering Growth.
Just a small correction: with his build (packing 4 Raise the Alarm), it is relatively easy to cast stain the mind on turn 3. However, I agree with all your lines here. Torpor orb was okay to have back in the days when splinter twin was a thing, but now... it is just not good enough. RiP is the best GY hoser, full stop. And disenchant is the more stable card to add there.
Hey there! So I finally added a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar to my build last week. So now I'm sitting on 2 Sorrin/1 Liliana/1 Gideon. Seems like a good combination so far.
So I'd like to ask you if you guys can give some general advice on how to use him properly. When's the best time to use which of his abilities? What should I look out for that can get rid of him? When should I side him out? Etc.
I wouldn't run Torpor Orb in the board. I actually had this discussion with someone at FNM last Friday - Torpor Orb is kind of a trap. You put it in your sideboard expecting it to be a house, but it never really does much of anything, certainly not enough to be worth a slot. Look at the tier one decks in Modern right now and think about what it really hits. Only hits Snapcaster Mage in Death's Shadow, and it's not worth a full card to shut that down. Hits stone cold nothing in Affinity and Burn. Only hits TKS in Eldrazi Tron, which, again, isn't worth a full card. It's not worth a slot to shut down abilities like that, since they still get the body. Your Eldrazi Tron opponent will be very happy to see you drop a do-nothing card like that. It'll never win you a game, likely never make you not lose one either, and in 90% of matchups you'll be looking at it in your sideboard between rounds thinking "why did I put this in here?". Take it from someone who's tried it herself.
IMO you absolutely need Rest in Peace over Nihil Spellbomb. Yes, it shuts off your own Lingering Souls and Start // Finish, but you still get value off of them, and Rest in Peace is so much more effective when it needs to be than any Spellbomb, Relic, etc. effects. I'd also run Lost Legacy or something over Stain the Mind if you really need that effect; the earliest you're going to be able to cast Stain is turn four, which is pretty slow. I don't think it's an effect that should be run at all, though, unless you're in a heavy Ad Naus meta.
I'm also a huge advocate of Disenchant over Sundering Growth, mainly because of Blood Moon. You can reliably access the single white to kill a Blood Moon from under it, but not the double white for Sundering Growth.
Just a small correction: with his build (packing 4 Raise the Alarm), it is relatively easy to cast stain the mind on turn 3. However, I agree with all your lines here. Torpor orb was okay to have back in the days when splinter twin was a thing, but now... it is just not good enough. RiP is the best GY hoser, full stop. And disenchant is the more stable card to add there.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
So I took the build below that splashes G for Driven // Despair and Abrupt Decay to a 76 person tournament last weekend. Just wanted to report on my experience with the new cards.
My overall record was 3-3-1 with the following matchups:
4C Aetherworks: 0-2 (on the draw)
I hit two disruption spells in both games, yet still managed to get hit by Emrakul to the face by Turn 6 each time. I honestly did not expect this matchup to be as difficult as it was, but it had SO much redundancy built in, and 100% of my removal was dead weight. Drew Abrupt Decay in game one which could not target Nahiri or Aetherworks, so was totally useless in this matchup.
4C Death's Shadow: 2-0 (on the draw)
This was a slaughter. My opponent played well, but his deck seemed sooo outmatched against BW Tokens that it hardly seemed fair. I easily won both games. Abrupt Decay seemed reasonably good here, but I still would have rather drawn Fatal Push. I boarded out Driven // Despair in the second game-- it seemed like it would slow down my gameplan in this matchup, and I had enough virtual card advantage without it.
Merfolk: 2-0 (on the draw)
This is sometimes a difficult matchup for me, but I hit silly amounts of disruption and removal both games, and won both easily. Did not see either G card.
Affinity: 1-2 (on the draw)
Starting to get irritated about losing every roll at this point, but I still won game one with a grindy comeback. Lots of removal and dropping Sorin at the right time saved the day. Boarded out Driven // Despair and did not see Abrupt Decay any game. A stupid mistake cost me game two. Topdecked Zealous Persecution while my opponent had Vault Skirge, Memnite and Steel Overseer (not yet activated) on the board. For some reason, I thought, "I'll play it during his upkeep", which, of course, was total nonsense because he could activate Overseer in response. Which he did. Game 3 was so grindy that I actually wished I had left Driven // Despair in. Pithing Needled Cranial while it was attached to an Ornithopter that was endlessly chumped. One very surprising event occurred when my opponent cut my deck completely out of the blue on my turn. I asked him what the hell he was doing, to which he replied "I thought you just shuffled". I probably shouldn't have let that slide, but I did, and two successive copies of Whipflare won him the game.
Gb CoCo Elves: 1-2 (on the draw)
Drawing my hand on Game 1 was a stochastic event if I have ever seen one. Mulled to six and drew a five land hand. Mulled to five, and drew another five land hand. Mulled to four, and drew a four land hand. Mulled to three, and for three Spectral Processions. Scooped. Game two was just mean. Played Inquisition on T1, followed by Inquisition and Thoughtseize on T2. My opponent could not recover. Game 3, my opponent was so explosive that there was simply nothing I could do. Did not see either G card any of the games.
Gifts Storm: 2-0 (on the draw)
Losing every roll was starting to become a joke at this point, but as with my matchup against Merfolk, I hit tons of disruption and removal both games, and won both easily. I drew Driven // Despair on Game 1, but my opponent scooped before I could use it.
Boros Burn: 1-1-1 (on the play)
Who would have suspected that I would draw against Burn? I boarded out Driven // Despair and Abrupt Decay (among other things), and moved in Timely Reinforcements and a couple other relevant cards, but my opponent boarded in four Wear // Tear and two Mana Tithe(!). As a result, we ended up grinding for like 15 turns on Games 2 and 3. These atypical games were admittedly pretty interesting, but I was not happy to go to a draw, especially considering that I virtually always win against Burn.
So overall, I can't say I am particularly happy with the green splash so far. I never got a chance to use Driven // Despair, and invariably, every time I drew Abrupt Decay, I wished I had drawn Push or Path instead. It never once took out a non-creature permanent. That being said, all of my matchups (except 4C Shadow... kind of) were against either Aggro or Combo, and it may have been a different story if I had been playing more Midrange and Control. But I am favored in those matchups anyways, so I can't help but feel like Driven // Despair would have been a win moar card.
Abrupt Decay did not feel particularly strong. I'm not sure what cards it would actually be especially good against. Cranial Plating probably. Certainly not Blood Moon since Moon shuts down my only G source. Chalice is probably the card it is most relevant against. One potential issue that was frequently on my mind (although it never happened in practice), were the many draws where I had no G source on the board and no Fetch in hand. There were so many instances in which either Green card could have been dead weight if I had drawn it.
My local meta has a much larger percentage of Death's Shadow, GBx, and Control (Grixis, Jescai, UW and Esper), so I am going to keep testing the Green Splash to see how it fares there. I'll report any relevant updates here. If I had to guess at this point, I'm probably going to end up ditching the Green in favor of Start // Finish and a Liliana of the Veil or two.
So I took the build below that splashes G for Driven // Despair and Abrupt Decay to a 76 person tournament last weekend. Just wanted to report on my experience with the new cards.
My overall record was 3-3-1 with the following matchups:
4C Aetherworks: 0-2 (on the draw)
I hit two disruption spells in both games, yet still managed to get hit by Emrakul to the face by Turn 6 each time. I honestly did not expect this matchup to be as difficult as it was, but it had SO much redundancy built in, and 100% of my removal was dead weight. Drew Abrupt Decay in game one which could not target Nahiri or Aetherworks, so was totally useless in this matchup.
4C Death's Shadow: 2-0 (on the draw)
This was a slaughter. My opponent played well, but his deck seemed sooo outmatched against BW Tokens that it hardly seemed fair. I easily won both games. Abrupt Decay seemed reasonably good here, but I still would have rather drawn Fatal Push. I boarded out Driven // Despair in the second game-- it seemed like it would slow down my gameplan in this matchup, and I had enough virtual card advantage without it.
Merfolk: 2-0 (on the draw)
This is sometimes a difficult matchup for me, but I hit silly amounts of disruption and removal both games, and won both easily. Did not see either G card.
Affinity: 1-2 (on the draw)
Starting to get irritated about losing every roll at this point, but I still won game one with a grindy comeback. Lots of removal and dropping Sorin at the right time saved the day. Boarded out Driven // Despair and did not see Abrupt Decay any game. A stupid mistake cost me game two. Topdecked Zealous Persecution while my opponent had Vault Skirge, Memnite and Steel Overseer (not yet activated) on the board. For some reason, I thought, "I'll play it during his upkeep", which, of course, was total nonsense because he could activate Overseer in response. Which he did. Game 3 was so grindy that I actually wished I had left Driven // Despair in. Pithing Needled Cranial while it was attached to an Ornithopter that was endlessly chumped. One very surprising event occurred when my opponent cut my deck completely out of the blue on my turn. I asked him what the hell he was doing, to which he replied "I thought you just shuffled". I probably shouldn't have let that slide, but I did, and two successive copies of Whipflare won him the game.
Gb CoCo Elves: 1-2 (on the draw)
Drawing my hand on Game 1 was a stochastic event if I have ever seen one. Mulled to six and drew a five land hand. Mulled to five, and drew another five land hand. Mulled to four, and drew a four land hand. Mulled to three, and for three Spectral Processions. Scooped. Game two was just mean. Played Inquisition on T1, followed by Inquisition and Thoughtseize on T2. My opponent could not recover. Game 3, my opponent was so explosive that there was simply nothing I could do. Did not see either G card any of the games.
Gifts Storm: 2-0 (on the draw)
Losing every roll was starting to become a joke at this point, but as with my matchup against Merfolk, I hit tons of disruption and removal both games, and won both easily. I drew Driven // Despair on Game 1, but my opponent scooped before I could use it.
Boros Burn: 1-1-1 (on the play)
Who would have suspected that I would draw against Burn? I boarded out Driven // Despair and Abrupt Decay (among other things), and moved in Timely Reinforcements and a couple other relevant cards, but my opponent boarded in four Wear // Tear and two Mana Tithe(!). As a result, we ended up grinding for like 15 turns on Games 2 and 3. These atypical games were admittedly pretty interesting, but I was not happy to go to a draw, especially considering that I virtually always win against Burn.
So overall, I can't say I am particularly happy with the green splash so far. I never got a chance to use Driven // Despair, and invariably, every time I drew Abrupt Decay, I wished I had drawn Push or Path instead. It never once took out a non-creature permanent. That being said, all of my matchups (except 4C Shadow... kind of) were against either Aggro or Combo, and it may have been a different story if I had been playing more Midrange and Control. But I am favored in those matchups anyways, so I can't help but feel like Driven // Despair would have been a win moar card.
Abrupt Decay did not feel particularly strong. I'm not sure what cards it would actually be especially good against. Cranial Plating probably. Certainly not Blood Moon since Moon shuts down my only G source. Chalice is probably the card it is most relevant against. One potential issue that was frequently on my mind (although it never happened in practice), were the many draws where I had no G source on the board and no Fetch in hand. There were so many instances in which either Green card could have been dead weight if I had drawn it.
My local meta has a much larger percentage of Death's Shadow, GBx, and Control (Grixis, Jescai, UW and Esper), so I am going to keep testing the Green Splash to see how it fares there. I'll report any relevant updates here. If I had to guess at this point, I'm probably going to end up ditching the Green in favor of Start // Finish and a Liliana of the Veil or two.
What is the sideboard?
as good as bitterblossom is, it is incredibly slow. consider some number of raise the alarm, maybe run a 2-2 split?
you might want to cut 1 or 2 pieces of removal.
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pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
The issue isn't just Blood Moon which can make the WW for Growth hard. But also Spreading Seas, and though not affecting color production the worse artifact/enchantment to face by far is Ensnaring Bridge. My card of preference is actually Fragmentize.
Also you are correct, the builds running Bitterblossom alongside Lingering Souls are much better at simply shrugging off sweepers and rebuilding after.
Yeah, that's fair. Fetchlands come before Rest in Peace. Just keep RiP in mind going forward!
The thing about Disenchant is that it doesn't need to be efficient. Disenchant isn't for cheaply answering threats and small artifacts; that's what Stony Silence is for. It's for hitting must-answer artifacts like Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
Even though you have a lot of basics, double colours under Blood Moon can be tough. You just can't rely on drawing into two basics of the types you need consistently, and the deck needs a lot of double colours in order to function properly. This is an issue that gets worse as you build out of budget, and start getting LotV, more Gideons, etc.
The double white also actually gets worse as you buy into fetchlands, not better, because fetching into double white under a turn three Blood Moon on the draw means you're inhibiting your own game plan a lot. You need to be able to turn one fetch for a dual source for Thoughtseize/IoK; fetching for two Plains before the Blood Moon comes down puts you pretty far behind. Being able to get a single extra token - conditionally, mind you, because a lot of the time when you want to blow up a Blood Moon you won't even have tokens on board - isn't at all worth the card's inflexibility. You basically need to change your game plan in order to use it, which makes it not worth it IMO.
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"Home isn't where you rest. It's what you fight for."
Keep in mind that lantern players run Leyline of Sanctity main and post-board against us, to keep us from using hand-disruption. Because of this, Stain the Mind might also fail (it targets players). Consider Surgical extraction (or extirpate) because it really is the best card for this kind of effects, targeting the card and not the player.
And about disenchant, I think it is one of those things you understand better when you use it. Simple and plain, but effective. Keep it in mind, at least.
So I took the build below that splashes G for Driven // Despair and Abrupt Decay to a 76 person tournament last weekend. Just wanted to report on my experience with the new cards.
My overall record was 3-3-1 with the following matchups:
4C Aetherworks: 0-2 (on the draw)
I hit two disruption spells in both games, yet still managed to get hit by Emrakul to the face by Turn 6 each time. I honestly did not expect this matchup to be as difficult as it was, but it had SO much redundancy built in, and 100% of my removal was dead weight. Drew Abrupt Decay in game one which could not target Nahiri or Aetherworks, so was totally useless in this matchup.
4C Death's Shadow: 2-0 (on the draw)
This was a slaughter. My opponent played well, but his deck seemed sooo outmatched against BW Tokens that it hardly seemed fair. I easily won both games. Abrupt Decay seemed reasonably good here, but I still would have rather drawn Fatal Push. I boarded out Driven // Despair in the second game-- it seemed like it would slow down my gameplan in this matchup, and I had enough virtual card advantage without it.
Merfolk: 2-0 (on the draw)
This is sometimes a difficult matchup for me, but I hit silly amounts of disruption and removal both games, and won both easily. Did not see either G card.
Affinity: 1-2 (on the draw)
Starting to get irritated about losing every roll at this point, but I still won game one with a grindy comeback. Lots of removal and dropping Sorin at the right time saved the day. Boarded out Driven // Despair and did not see Abrupt Decay any game. A stupid mistake cost me game two. Topdecked Zealous Persecution while my opponent had Vault Skirge, Memnite and Steel Overseer (not yet activated) on the board. For some reason, I thought, "I'll play it during his upkeep", which, of course, was total nonsense because he could activate Overseer in response. Which he did. Game 3 was so grindy that I actually wished I had left Driven // Despair in. Pithing Needled Cranial while it was attached to an Ornithopter that was endlessly chumped. One very surprising event occurred when my opponent cut my deck completely out of the blue on my turn. I asked him what the hell he was doing, to which he replied "I thought you just shuffled". I probably shouldn't have let that slide, but I did, and two successive copies of Whipflare won him the game.
Gb CoCo Elves: 1-2 (on the draw)
Drawing my hand on Game 1 was a stochastic event if I have ever seen one. Mulled to six and drew a five land hand. Mulled to five, and drew another five land hand. Mulled to four, and drew a four land hand. Mulled to three, and for three Spectral Processions. Scooped. Game two was just mean. Played Inquisition on T1, followed by Inquisition and Thoughtseize on T2. My opponent could not recover. Game 3, my opponent was so explosive that there was simply nothing I could do. Did not see either G card any of the games.
Gifts Storm: 2-0 (on the draw)
Losing every roll was starting to become a joke at this point, but as with my matchup against Merfolk, I hit tons of disruption and removal both games, and won both easily. I drew Driven // Despair on Game 1, but my opponent scooped before I could use it.
Boros Burn: 1-1-1 (on the play)
Who would have suspected that I would draw against Burn? I boarded out Driven // Despair and Abrupt Decay (among other things), and moved in Timely Reinforcements and a couple other relevant cards, but my opponent boarded in four Wear // Tear and two Mana Tithe(!). As a result, we ended up grinding for like 15 turns on Games 2 and 3. These atypical games were admittedly pretty interesting, but I was not happy to go to a draw, especially considering that I virtually always win against Burn.
So overall, I can't say I am particularly happy with the green splash so far. I never got a chance to use Driven // Despair, and invariably, every time I drew Abrupt Decay, I wished I had drawn Push or Path instead. It never once took out a non-creature permanent. That being said, all of my matchups (except 4C Shadow... kind of) were against either Aggro or Combo, and it may have been a different story if I had been playing more Midrange and Control. But I am favored in those matchups anyways, so I can't help but feel like Driven // Despair would have been a win moar card.
Abrupt Decay did not feel particularly strong. I'm not sure what cards it would actually be especially good against. Cranial Plating probably. Certainly not Blood Moon since Moon shuts down my only G source. Chalice is probably the card it is most relevant against. One potential issue that was frequently on my mind (although it never happened in practice), were the many draws where I had no G source on the board and no Fetch in hand. There were so many instances in which either Green card could have been dead weight if I had drawn it.
My local meta has a much larger percentage of Death's Shadow, GBx, and Control (Grixis, Jescai, UW and Esper), so I am going to keep testing the Green Splash to see how it fares there. I'll report any relevant updates here. If I had to guess at this point, I'm probably going to end up ditching the Green in favor of Start // Finish and a Liliana of the Veil or two.
Last week i just drifted from the BW/g to pure BW in an instant i saw 5-6 burn players in 20people pptq. Got 9th, which does hurt.
It really shines in slower matchup and combo, but not in a fast aggro matchup like affinity
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I get that it's a winmore card, but once you can secure even 1 time, you can just go all in. the despair side gives menace as well, which is good when you are on board stall, even if that doesnt happen regularly.
For land base, i havent found a bit clunky-ness whenever i tested it.
If you count the brutalities I am running 9 hand-disrupting spells, so... yeah... I like them xD. If you want to try the lilis consider this build as a reference. Then you could include your driven // despair instead of a collective brutality and replace the 2 blessed alliance with 2 fatal push, if you like them better.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Sure, you can run more than one Gideon. I run two (as well as two Sorin). You just get to the question of balance. How many four drops can you afford to have in the deck and not get too many too often? It is generally considered 3-4 in a 23 land build but could be more for a 24 land build. Then you just have to decide what amount of Gideon vs. Sorin you want. Sorin is generally considered a better fit for our deck (hence why you see lists with more or only Sorins) but I love Gideon in it as well. I split 2-2 for my build (23 lands)
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
BW Tokens runs about three times as many token-producing spells as BW Smallpox, so Sorin, Solemn Visitor has more value in our deck because of his synergy with tokens that are already on the board. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar's usefulness is somewhat different in our deck than it is in BW Smallpox. In general, his anthem ability has higher value in BW Tokens, while his +1 Beatdown ability has more value in BW Smallpox. Both decks benefit similarly from his Token-producing ability.
There is essentially consensus that four 4-drops is the most you want to run in BW Tokens. BW Smallpox can sustain slightly more for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here. So we are faced with the question of which cards are most valuable to our deck in the 4-drop slot. I would argue that Sorin is the most valuable 4-drop for Tokens, but there are diminishing returns as you increase the number in the deck because of redundancy and the Legendary Rule. Gideon is also a high value card in our deck, so the question then becomes where you strike a balance. I think most would agree that the best card combinations to run in the 4-drop slot are 3 Sorin / 1 Gideon and 2 Sorin / 2 Gideon. For some 23 land builds, 3 Sorin / 0 Gideon and 2 Sorin / 1 Gideon are also reasonable.
Gideon is an extremely valuable card in BW Smallpox because they generally only run four token-producing spells (Lingering Souls), so he often acts as the aggressor in controlling the board state. Because we tend to maintain a more active board state than BW Smallpox, Gideon is not quite as important of a card to us as it is for them.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm currently on a 2/2/1 split between Sorin/Gideon/Liliana, but actually considering changing it to 1/2/2. Sorin is the best card in our deck in the right situation - he's part of our nut draw - but he's really bad behind when compared to Gideon/Lily. Gideon is also just way more versatile.
sooo last 2 word about this event, if i was a better player probably i could get in top 8 ,on room (i don t know if you english speaker use this slang lol -in sala *ita ) were uwr shaeli,affo burn , eldra tron , shadow in all their forms and uwx controls , so our only bad mu was eldra tron ;i also found the we dont have a real good tokens generaton on turn 2 , i tried both raise the allarm and bitterblossom but only spectral and lingering made my victories , collective brutality was an all star so so good ,basically is our liliana to discard bad things and do something cool so here my list .
as Always tnx reading and pardon my bad english XP.
The rest seems legit. I have never tried a gideon before, I might give it a try this week.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I played horribly and the deck was not at its best, to be fair. But anyway, some conclusions:
- Blessed alliance is too clunky for MB. There were 2 people playing eldrazi tron, but still, I am taking them out. I really missed the third fatal push (mostly because every matchup I played had a turn 1 creature, from which mana dorks are the most annoying).
- Collective brutality is rock solid. 2-of. It is awesome.
- Start // Finish is also huge. I liked it a lot. I am keeping 2 for sure.
- I dont like tunning less than 13 token generators. So I went all in and bought the third bitterblossom. The card win games on its own.
A bit frustrated after the matches, I really misplayed many things. But next week more and better!
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
IMO you absolutely need Rest in Peace over Nihil Spellbomb. Yes, it shuts off your own Lingering Souls and Start // Finish, but you still get value off of them, and Rest in Peace is so much more effective when it needs to be than any Spellbomb, Relic, etc. effects. I'd also run Lost Legacy or something over Stain the Mind if you really need that effect; the earliest you're going to be able to cast Stain is turn four, which is pretty slow. I don't think it's an effect that should be run at all, though, unless you're in a heavy Ad Naus meta.
I'm also a huge advocate of Disenchant over Sundering Growth, mainly because of Blood Moon. You can reliably access the single white to kill a Blood Moon from under it, but not the double white for Sundering Growth.
Just a small correction: with his build (packing 4 Raise the Alarm), it is relatively easy to cast stain the mind on turn 3. However, I agree with all your lines here. Torpor orb was okay to have back in the days when splinter twin was a thing, but now... it is just not good enough. RiP is the best GY hoser, full stop. And disenchant is the more stable card to add there.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
So I'd like to ask you if you guys can give some general advice on how to use him properly. When's the best time to use which of his abilities? What should I look out for that can get rid of him? When should I side him out? Etc.
I think most of the time extirpate is better.
Has sorin, lord of innistrad fallen out of favor?
I run a 3/1 split between sorin, solemn visitor and him. the token have flying, and the emblem is also good.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
4x Concealed Courtyard
1x Fetid Heath
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
1x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
2x Vault of the Archangel
4x Windswept Heath
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorcery (16)
1x Driven // Despair
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
3x Thoughtseize
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
1x Zealous Persecution
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
My overall record was 3-3-1 with the following matchups:
4C Aetherworks: 0-2 (on the draw)
I hit two disruption spells in both games, yet still managed to get hit by Emrakul to the face by Turn 6 each time. I honestly did not expect this matchup to be as difficult as it was, but it had SO much redundancy built in, and 100% of my removal was dead weight. Drew Abrupt Decay in game one which could not target Nahiri or Aetherworks, so was totally useless in this matchup.
4C Death's Shadow: 2-0 (on the draw)
This was a slaughter. My opponent played well, but his deck seemed sooo outmatched against BW Tokens that it hardly seemed fair. I easily won both games. Abrupt Decay seemed reasonably good here, but I still would have rather drawn Fatal Push. I boarded out Driven // Despair in the second game-- it seemed like it would slow down my gameplan in this matchup, and I had enough virtual card advantage without it.
Merfolk: 2-0 (on the draw)
This is sometimes a difficult matchup for me, but I hit silly amounts of disruption and removal both games, and won both easily. Did not see either G card.
Affinity: 1-2 (on the draw)
Starting to get irritated about losing every roll at this point, but I still won game one with a grindy comeback. Lots of removal and dropping Sorin at the right time saved the day. Boarded out Driven // Despair and did not see Abrupt Decay any game. A stupid mistake cost me game two. Topdecked Zealous Persecution while my opponent had Vault Skirge, Memnite and Steel Overseer (not yet activated) on the board. For some reason, I thought, "I'll play it during his upkeep", which, of course, was total nonsense because he could activate Overseer in response. Which he did. Game 3 was so grindy that I actually wished I had left Driven // Despair in. Pithing Needled Cranial while it was attached to an Ornithopter that was endlessly chumped. One very surprising event occurred when my opponent cut my deck completely out of the blue on my turn. I asked him what the hell he was doing, to which he replied "I thought you just shuffled". I probably shouldn't have let that slide, but I did, and two successive copies of Whipflare won him the game.
Gb CoCo Elves: 1-2 (on the draw)
Drawing my hand on Game 1 was a stochastic event if I have ever seen one. Mulled to six and drew a five land hand. Mulled to five, and drew another five land hand. Mulled to four, and drew a four land hand. Mulled to three, and for three Spectral Processions. Scooped. Game two was just mean. Played Inquisition on T1, followed by Inquisition and Thoughtseize on T2. My opponent could not recover. Game 3, my opponent was so explosive that there was simply nothing I could do. Did not see either G card any of the games.
Gifts Storm: 2-0 (on the draw)
Losing every roll was starting to become a joke at this point, but as with my matchup against Merfolk, I hit tons of disruption and removal both games, and won both easily. I drew Driven // Despair on Game 1, but my opponent scooped before I could use it.
Boros Burn: 1-1-1 (on the play)
Who would have suspected that I would draw against Burn? I boarded out Driven // Despair and Abrupt Decay (among other things), and moved in Timely Reinforcements and a couple other relevant cards, but my opponent boarded in four Wear // Tear and two Mana Tithe(!). As a result, we ended up grinding for like 15 turns on Games 2 and 3. These atypical games were admittedly pretty interesting, but I was not happy to go to a draw, especially considering that I virtually always win against Burn.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So overall, I can't say I am particularly happy with the green splash so far. I never got a chance to use Driven // Despair, and invariably, every time I drew Abrupt Decay, I wished I had drawn Push or Path instead. It never once took out a non-creature permanent. That being said, all of my matchups (except 4C Shadow... kind of) were against either Aggro or Combo, and it may have been a different story if I had been playing more Midrange and Control. But I am favored in those matchups anyways, so I can't help but feel like Driven // Despair would have been a win moar card.
Abrupt Decay did not feel particularly strong. I'm not sure what cards it would actually be especially good against. Cranial Plating probably. Certainly not Blood Moon since Moon shuts down my only G source. Chalice is probably the card it is most relevant against. One potential issue that was frequently on my mind (although it never happened in practice), were the many draws where I had no G source on the board and no Fetch in hand. There were so many instances in which either Green card could have been dead weight if I had drawn it.
My local meta has a much larger percentage of Death's Shadow, GBx, and Control (Grixis, Jescai, UW and Esper), so I am going to keep testing the Green Splash to see how it fares there. I'll report any relevant updates here. If I had to guess at this point, I'm probably going to end up ditching the Green in favor of Start // Finish and a Liliana of the Veil or two.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
What is the sideboard?
as good as bitterblossom is, it is incredibly slow. consider some number of raise the alarm, maybe run a 2-2 split?
you might want to cut 1 or 2 pieces of removal.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Also you are correct, the builds running Bitterblossom alongside Lingering Souls are much better at simply shrugging off sweepers and rebuilding after.
The thing about Disenchant is that it doesn't need to be efficient. Disenchant isn't for cheaply answering threats and small artifacts; that's what Stony Silence is for. It's for hitting must-answer artifacts like Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
Even though you have a lot of basics, double colours under Blood Moon can be tough. You just can't rely on drawing into two basics of the types you need consistently, and the deck needs a lot of double colours in order to function properly. This is an issue that gets worse as you build out of budget, and start getting LotV, more Gideons, etc.
The double white also actually gets worse as you buy into fetchlands, not better, because fetching into double white under a turn three Blood Moon on the draw means you're inhibiting your own game plan a lot. You need to be able to turn one fetch for a dual source for Thoughtseize/IoK; fetching for two Plains before the Blood Moon comes down puts you pretty far behind. Being able to get a single extra token - conditionally, mind you, because a lot of the time when you want to blow up a Blood Moon you won't even have tokens on board - isn't at all worth the card's inflexibility. You basically need to change your game plan in order to use it, which makes it not worth it IMO.
And about disenchant, I think it is one of those things you understand better when you use it. Simple and plain, but effective. Keep it in mind, at least.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Last week i just drifted from the BW/g to pure BW in an instant i saw 5-6 burn players in 20people pptq. Got 9th, which does hurt.
It really shines in slower matchup and combo, but not in a fast aggro matchup like affinity