Hi guys!
In the last week i sold the white base of my tokens(and blossom) to finish my abzan and jund, so from now i will lose to tokens, lol.
I say goodbye momentarily from the deck, but I'll keep following the topic.
First of all welcome to the forum! hope you stick around here with BW tokens!
Your list seems pretty legit to me. Some general tips that you might find interesting:
- A deck like this wants to run as much disruption as threats, i.e., running a 24 land version, a first orientation should be around 18 threats and 18 disruption spells. You run 15 disruptions (counting the zealous persecutions) so your attitude playing this deck should be a bit more proactive. This makes perfect sense with your raise the alarm build. Another option you might want to consider is start // finish. It is included in my version and so far has yielded excellent results for me, counting as both threat and disruption, providing longer reach than fatal push (even without fetches), at a worst speed/cost (anyway it is a free card, what else can you ask for?).
- Selfless spirit has been a bit disappointing for me in the SB, taking too many slots. I found that it is just better to try to be smart and play around board wipes or disrupt them with duress (which will also improve your combo matchups) or your main deck handhate, or reserve a couple slots for a wrath of yours like wrath of god (it is actually pretty cheap now) that helps a lot against faster/combo creature-based decks, which represent a problem, trust me.
- This deck seems to suffer a lot against combo decks, maybe reconsider a couple SB slots for more disruption or something like runed halo (also protects against heavy or numerous creatures).
Now short answers:
1- Fatal push is great even without revolt. Actually, we were already well-equipped with the best removal in the format, path to exile, and the addition of the former makes our deck just better. This, however, does not mean you should automatically auto-include 4 fatal pushes. Using raise the alarm you should be able to weather the storm better the first turns, so you would have time to balance the game. I think 2 is fine, but going to 1 and an extra blessed alliance main or a start // finish would be really good as well (depending on your meta).
2- Timely reinforcements is nuts when you want it but useless many games. SB is the right place for it, if any.
3- I play 2 thoughtseize and still the collective brutalitys. I have a more controlish version, true, but they are great early turns of G1, you always find a utility.
4- I think 2 is okay in your build. Nevertheless, if you were to include a honor of the pure, do not hesitate. All your tokens are white (but vampires), plus it buffs the shambling vent as well. 1-of max.
5- In my opinion, 3 taplands should be tops. I play 3 shambling vent, because they provide more interaction late game (after all, this deck is grindy as hell) and fixes colors. I believe getting black mana early might be a bit troubling for you with your base, so I would recommend you to go to 3 of them and cut the windbrisk heights. Lingering souls or Start // Finish can make for the card advantage effect. The rest seems about right.
meh.. there have been paaaaages of discussion about these two lands. Ultimately, I find the shambling vent better, since they really balance the game against more aggro decks and resist boardwipes as well. I get the card advantadge of the Windbrisk Heights, though, I played them myself for long time. The shambling vent could solve some problems while the Windbrisk Heights means that your board is somewhat already developed.
Maybe fill the remaining gap with a utility land like a ghost quarter? You would be fixing the mana with the shambling vent, so it should hurt too much.
it is not only tron that should concern you. It is one of the dew answer that UW control decks can't deal with against their celestial colonnades (other than spreading seas), eldrazi, affinity, infect, gavony township, raging ravine, and many more situations are ghost quarter worthy. Also, don't forget it triggers revolt, and lets you pseudo-fetch yourself for a basic in some cases like against blood moon, but with so many basics, I doubt this bothers you at all. I run 4 colorless sources in my deck (see signature) and works fine for me so far. With 23 lands this is not recommendable, but with 24 it makes almost no pain.
Anyway, I haven't tried your manabase, so you might have a point there. Best answer is "just try". You can always include the Windbrisk Heights as a 4th tapland even. In the end is only my opinion, not the rules of playing bw tokens
I mean... I think you are totally right, I run 3 myself and when I get for 4 marsh flats I might go to 4. I think is a great land that has an excellent value in the current meta, and it does not hurt our deck that much (casting spectral procession for 4 mana is not the end of the world, but part of the versatility the card entails).
Also, now that you mention it, about Stony silence, in my opinion or you run 3 or nothing. Consider that for your SB. Maybe you could go to 2 GY hate (for which I believe Rest in Peace is the best card) and cut the stain the mind for 2 copies of extirpate (cheaper than surgical extraction), since they are good both as GY and combo hate (also stupid good with tron and Ghost quarter). Trim 1 selfless spirit for the third stony silence?
It is not a matter of how many decks you want stony silence against, but of how early in the game do I want to smash it on the board. The answer to me is turn 1 (if it was possible), therefore you want more cards to increase the odds of seeing one in your first 7.
considering all the hand disruption that we pack in the deck, it is not only themselves who could fill their GY for extraction effects. Again, give them a try. I replaced my 2 Stain the mind with them, and it was for the better. They are also great against decks with snapcaster mage.
Yeah I can't stress how much I love Runed Halo. It's a personal favorite of mine. It's just so versatile. Unfortunately, I'd say the downside of it is that it requires you to have knowledge of your opponents deck or just matchups in general. I'm still learning myself what matchups it works in. Not a card that will help a beginner with little matchup experience. My advice don't throw down money for these until you do your homework. But generally, bringing it in vs combo decks or decks with 2-3 big threats tops is pretty good. But yeah, knowing what those combo pieces/threats are beforehand will get you more mileage
Side note- I play against Grixis Death's Shadow a ton (surprise) because two of my good buddies play the deck. Landing a Runed Halo naming Death's Shadow is a real fun time lol
As i've noticed, every local tournament near me got at least 1 tron player now, and i want to become prepared for it while not changing my mana base. What do you guys think?
On another note, tested driven despair against ad nauseam, bant coco, abzan coco, the discard part is real, although the card draw is also sweet. This makes me want to include at least 1 in main, cause my meta is still about aggro but there are still slower midrange and control decks.
After this pptq, i would be more focused on HOU draft for national, so i might be leaving the forum for a while. But i will still keep in touch.
I know, the card is great. I took it out of my 75 about 2 weeks ago to try this new configuration. I am going to stick to this a bit longer, but I could see a zealous persecution taking the place of a blessed alliance, for example. But yeah, you are totally right, the card is great against elves, goblins, tokens, etc.
My question was more focused on, with my current list, whether those swaps are optimal.
It is the main reason yeah. There is not much we can do against it and it is really painful. However, numbing a couple dwynen's elite with only one card is not bad either. I could definitely board only 1 runed halo and leave a Start // Finish in, but I feel like non-flying creatures lose the edge against those elves. intangible virtue is probably the best card against them, to be able to race without worrying to leave blockers behind.
Went 3-0 last tuesday taking 1st place. Fought Ad nauseum, naya burn and merfolk.
Ad nauseum got three cards discarded game 1 and could not recover due to already having a pretty bad hand. Game 2 he dropped a Leyline of sanctity (To prevent me from discarding his key pieces) and a Phyrexian unlife, both destroyed at the best time possible with my lucky pair of Disenchant. I even drew the second one the turn he was going off, talk about good timing!
Burn actually took game 1. But game 2 he was stuck with two Destructive revelry in hand whil I had no enchantment out and loss because of that. Game three I resolved sorin for a boost of 6 life, and my Shambling vent managed to give me a steady amount of life through the game.
Merfolk had to mulligan game 1 and unfortunately for him, I got plenty of removal. Game two I Pithing needle his Mutavault and dealt with seven of his lords like a boss.
Overall had a great night and my deck pretty much played super smooth.
I can also afely say that Start // Finish is worth a try. I'm gonna try it at two copies next time, for the single copy I played last time worked very well.
Alright, I´ll at least give them a try.
I agree that these alternatives look worse, by a lot. I guess I´ll have to make do without Runed Halo for now.
Wait-wait-wait! If you want Runed Halo, a good substitute is found in Blessed alliance (For creatures at least). I remember that I was split between the two card for a while, and while I think Halo is better, Blessed is no joke. It's good against burn, infect, bogle, and allow you to get rid of Reality smasher without having to discard a card. It can also get rid of monsters we usually can't deal with like Stormbreath dragon, Blood baron of vizkopa and etched champion.
I tried it against multiple matchups
it is super great against midrange combo and control
it is strictly worse against faster decks
in my case i only splash green for 1 driven despair main and another 1 side
Anybody has a thought on my list? expecting burns, 1-2 tron, 1-2 blue based control, some affinity, some shadow, and some janky decks
I dont really like the ghost quarter in the side. I understand that in a three color build, the mana-base is tighter to include them main, but still... Also, maybe you would need some more early hand-disruption(?), I mean, 6 is fine, but if you expect burn, tron, and control decks, I could see a collective brutality taking the place of the 3rd fatal push. We are pretty mid-range-y, and versatile cards are just so powerful in our type of deck. I get that driven // despair does count here, but it plays a later role.
Other than that, the list seems pretty solid to me, good luck!
PD: maybe you could consider including a link to your list in your signature. This way, it is easier for people to check your list without having to search in the thread
I tried it against multiple matchups
it is super great against midrange combo and control
it is strictly worse against faster decks
in my case i only splash green for 1 driven despair main and another 1 side
I was kind of on the fence regarding whether to play one or two copies mainboard. I think I am going to move one over to the SB as well and move one copy of Zealous back to the Main.
The cars seems to be REALLY good when it works in games like against Grixis Control etc., I have had games in playtesting in which I haven't drawn into a single fetch to grab Temple Garden, which makes me wonder if the small splash can potentially be a little clunky at times.
Anybody has a thought on my list? expecting burns, 1-2 tron, 1-2 blue based control, some affinity, some shadow, and some janky decks
I dont really like the ghost quarter in the side. I understand that in a three color build, the mana-base is tighter to include them main, but still... Also, maybe you would need some more early hand-disruption(?), I mean, 6 is fine, but if you expect burn, tron, and control decks, I could see a collective brutality taking the place of the 3rd fatal push. We are pretty mid-range-y, and versatile cards are just so powerful in our type of deck. I get that driven // despair does count here, but it plays a later role.
Other than that, the list seems pretty solid to me, good luck!
PD: maybe you could consider including a link to your list in your signature. This way, it is easier for people to check your list without having to search in the thread
SADLY i dont know how to do that :(((
RECENTLY i just got 2 lili otv borrowed from my friend, so do you have any good control version of the deck? might consider your list as well
as much as i expect slow deck, i dont really like 7 disruptions. it just doesnt feel right with me. Dont get me wrong, i love disruptions to the point that i have tried full 8 team, but i dont know :/
As for ghost quarter, i plan on siding out 2 fetch and some spectral. still including driven despair cause the card is so damn good against tron, i want to put the other 1 in postboard
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In the last week i sold the white base of my tokens(and blossom) to finish my abzan and jund, so from now i will lose to tokens, lol.
I say goodbye momentarily from the deck, but I'll keep following the topic.
Your list seems pretty legit to me. Some general tips that you might find interesting:
- A deck like this wants to run as much disruption as threats, i.e., running a 24 land version, a first orientation should be around 18 threats and 18 disruption spells. You run 15 disruptions (counting the zealous persecutions) so your attitude playing this deck should be a bit more proactive. This makes perfect sense with your raise the alarm build. Another option you might want to consider is start // finish. It is included in my version and so far has yielded excellent results for me, counting as both threat and disruption, providing longer reach than fatal push (even without fetches), at a worst speed/cost (anyway it is a free card, what else can you ask for?).
- Selfless spirit has been a bit disappointing for me in the SB, taking too many slots. I found that it is just better to try to be smart and play around board wipes or disrupt them with duress (which will also improve your combo matchups) or your main deck handhate, or reserve a couple slots for a wrath of yours like wrath of god (it is actually pretty cheap now) that helps a lot against faster/combo creature-based decks, which represent a problem, trust me.
- This deck seems to suffer a lot against combo decks, maybe reconsider a couple SB slots for more disruption or something like runed halo (also protects against heavy or numerous creatures).
Now short answers:
1- Fatal push is great even without revolt. Actually, we were already well-equipped with the best removal in the format, path to exile, and the addition of the former makes our deck just better. This, however, does not mean you should automatically auto-include 4 fatal pushes. Using raise the alarm you should be able to weather the storm better the first turns, so you would have time to balance the game. I think 2 is fine, but going to 1 and an extra blessed alliance main or a start // finish would be really good as well (depending on your meta).
2- Timely reinforcements is nuts when you want it but useless many games. SB is the right place for it, if any.
3- I play 2 thoughtseize and still the collective brutalitys. I have a more controlish version, true, but they are great early turns of G1, you always find a utility.
4- I think 2 is okay in your build. Nevertheless, if you were to include a honor of the pure, do not hesitate. All your tokens are white (but vampires), plus it buffs the shambling vent as well. 1-of max.
5- In my opinion, 3 taplands should be tops. I play 3 shambling vent, because they provide more interaction late game (after all, this deck is grindy as hell) and fixes colors. I believe getting black mana early might be a bit troubling for you with your base, so I would recommend you to go to 3 of them and cut the windbrisk heights. Lingering souls or Start // Finish can make for the card advantage effect. The rest seems about right.
Hope this helps!
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Maybe fill the remaining gap with a utility land like a ghost quarter? You would be fixing the mana with the shambling vent, so it should hurt too much.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Anyway, I haven't tried your manabase, so you might have a point there. Best answer is "just try". You can always include the Windbrisk Heights as a 4th tapland even. In the end is only my opinion, not the rules of playing bw tokens
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Also, now that you mention it, about Stony silence, in my opinion or you run 3 or nothing. Consider that for your SB. Maybe you could go to 2 GY hate (for which I believe Rest in Peace is the best card) and cut the stain the mind for 2 copies of extirpate (cheaper than surgical extraction), since they are good both as GY and combo hate (also stupid good with tron and Ghost quarter). Trim 1 selfless spirit for the third stony silence?
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
considering all the hand disruption that we pack in the deck, it is not only themselves who could fill their GY for extraction effects. Again, give them a try. I replaced my 2 Stain the mind with them, and it was for the better. They are also great against decks with snapcaster mage.
Alternatives to runed halo are nevermore and Gideon's Intervention. Worse, I believe, but cheaper.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Side note- I play against Grixis Death's Shadow a ton (surprise) because two of my good buddies play the deck. Landing a Runed Halo naming Death's Shadow is a real fun time lol
When you have the money to afford thoughtseize, i would recommend surgical. that card is crazy good against combos that we have problem to
4 lingering souls
4 spectral procession
3 bitterblossom
1 raise the alarm
creature
2 auriok champion
planeswalker
3 sorin, solemn visitor
1 gideon, ally of zendikar
disruption
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
1 driven//despair
anthems
1 zealous persecution
4 intangible virtue
4 path to exile
3 fatal push
lands
4 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 arid mesa
2 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 fetid heath
4 concealed courtyard
1 vault of the archangel
3 plains
1 swamp
2 shambling vent
2 ghost quarter
2 runed halo
2 collective brutality
2 rest in peace
2 surgical extraction
1 driven//despair
1 timely reinforcement
2 stony silence
1 pithing needle
As i've noticed, every local tournament near me got at least 1 tron player now, and i want to become prepared for it while not changing my mana base. What do you guys think?
On another note, tested driven despair against ad nauseam, bant coco, abzan coco, the discard part is real, although the card draw is also sweet. This makes me want to include at least 1 in main, cause my meta is still about aggro but there are still slower midrange and control decks.
After this pptq, i would be more focused on HOU draft for national, so i might be leaving the forum for a while. But i will still keep in touch.
IN: 2 Runed Halo, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Wrath of God
OUT: 2 Blessed Alliance, 2 Start // Finish, 1 Duress, 1 Inquisition of Kozilek
The list is in the signature. Any feedback? The matchup is so tough.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
My question was more focused on, with my current list, whether those swaps are optimal.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Ad nauseum got three cards discarded game 1 and could not recover due to already having a pretty bad hand. Game 2 he dropped a Leyline of sanctity (To prevent me from discarding his key pieces) and a Phyrexian unlife, both destroyed at the best time possible with my lucky pair of Disenchant. I even drew the second one the turn he was going off, talk about good timing!
Burn actually took game 1. But game 2 he was stuck with two Destructive revelry in hand whil I had no enchantment out and loss because of that. Game three I resolved sorin for a boost of 6 life, and my Shambling vent managed to give me a steady amount of life through the game.
Merfolk had to mulligan game 1 and unfortunately for him, I got plenty of removal. Game two I Pithing needle his Mutavault and dealt with seven of his lords like a boss.
Overall had a great night and my deck pretty much played super smooth.
I can also afely say that Start // Finish is worth a try. I'm gonna try it at two copies next time, for the single copy I played last time worked very well.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
My copies are in the mail and I am personally really excited to try it (along with Abrupt Decay) in my new control-focused build.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
I tried it against multiple matchups
it is super great against midrange combo and control
it is strictly worse against faster decks
in my case i only splash green for 1 driven despair main and another 1 side
I dont really like the ghost quarter in the side. I understand that in a three color build, the mana-base is tighter to include them main, but still... Also, maybe you would need some more early hand-disruption(?), I mean, 6 is fine, but if you expect burn, tron, and control decks, I could see a collective brutality taking the place of the 3rd fatal push. We are pretty mid-range-y, and versatile cards are just so powerful in our type of deck. I get that driven // despair does count here, but it plays a later role.
Other than that, the list seems pretty solid to me, good luck!
PD: maybe you could consider including a link to your list in your signature. This way, it is easier for people to check your list without having to search in the thread
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I was kind of on the fence regarding whether to play one or two copies mainboard. I think I am going to move one over to the SB as well and move one copy of Zealous back to the Main.
The cars seems to be REALLY good when it works in games like against Grixis Control etc., I have had games in playtesting in which I haven't drawn into a single fetch to grab Temple Garden, which makes me wonder if the small splash can potentially be a little clunky at times.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
SADLY i dont know how to do that :(((
RECENTLY i just got 2 lili otv borrowed from my friend, so do you have any good control version of the deck? might consider your list as well
as much as i expect slow deck, i dont really like 7 disruptions. it just doesnt feel right with me. Dont get me wrong, i love disruptions to the point that i have tried full 8 team, but i dont know :/
As for ghost quarter, i plan on siding out 2 fetch and some spectral. still including driven despair cause the card is so damn good against tron, i want to put the other 1 in postboard