Against what kind of decks do you need 4 Paths and 4 Push already maindeck? 50% of the MUs I face this high amount of removel is not even needed. I would rather put 1-2 Pushs in the SB. Against hyper aggro decks we also have Timely helping to come back into the game.
Aside from the myriad of reasons I already provided for you? Please list the 50% of match-ups you face and the other 50% you don't face. And in return I'll show you the metagame breakdown of decks in percentages.
Fatal Push seems like a main-deck or not-at-all spell to me. I think some number of copies belong main-deck but I don't think it has high-enough impact for any match-up to be in the side-board. I would prefer mini-sweepers like Flaying Tendrils or Engineered Explosives for generic aggro; silver bullets like Darkblast for Infect or Affinity; or Celestial Flare or Blessed Alliance for Boggles.
If one has Snapcaster Mage or some other recurring ability, then it might be different. I haven't heard the U splash getting much love.
Of course it's all relevant to what one needs for his environment, but I don't see FP in any side-board of mine except maybe Grixis Delver and there only because it seems SO good with Snapcaster but there really isn't room main-deck for more than one copy.
Grixis Delver already runs lightning bolt in addition to snapcaster mage. All the deck needs is some form of hard removal - Terminate and the deck gets little to no benefit from having FP in the deck except in match-ups where you're already favored.
Fatal Push is arguably just as good, if not better, than Dark Blast against Infect. Yes you can't recur it but you can get around counters completely. It's also illogical to compare cards that can belong in the main with sideboard cards like EE and Flaying Tendrils.
Snapcaster mage makes the deck better at grinding. That's not exactly our problem. Also, it is a nonbo with most our spells because they're sorcery speed.
I'm operating under the assumption that FP is going to be a 4-of and Path will round out the removal package with 2-4 copies, probably 3 for me, to start. I would gladly bring in paths from the sb in match ups where fp is dead.
There certainly seems to be room for seven or even more removals; given the typical twenty-three lands, twelve token-sources, six discard and allowing for four Planeswalkers, that leaves eleven slots.
Zealous Persecution still seems a good one-of - at least; I'll probably keep two main-deck. Anguished Unmaking is a pet of mine and I wouldn't play without one main-deck and another side-board. Both of these cards function as removal although ZP is obviously limited in that regard. Cards that do double duty are always welcome in my lists.
That still leaves eight slots. If I can scrounge enough copies for the other decks I want it for and some extra for this one, I'll probably start with three copies of Fatal Push and at least three copies of Path to Exile main-deck. Given the number of Infect players I see regularly, I might leave Darkblast main-deck although that is perhaps a poor choice for most environments. That still leaves one more slot for either a seventh discard; an eighth, dedicated creature-removal, a fifth Planeswalker, or a thirteenth token maker.
If one falls into my lap, I'll test Hidden Stockpile for the flex spot.
Zealous persecution is a powerful card but it's much more of a sideboard card than Fatal Push is. I won't even comment on Anguished Unmaking in the main.
Against what kind of decks do you need 4 Paths and 4 Push already maindeck? 50% of the MUs I face this high amount of removel is not even needed. I would rather put 1-2 Pushs in the SB. Against hyper aggro decks we also have Timely helping to come back into the game.
I see that u do not have significant amounts of infect or death's shadow in your local meta. I'm envious.
Playing on diffrent big tournaments and if you review all the decks you have faced afterwards you can say that the meta is very diverse. But played a lot against Infect and lost as many games because of having not enough removel as of having enough removel but no pressure to seal the deal so he could come back. Besides spotremovel can be very medicore against them because of vines, defense, spellskite and Blessing. Since Eldritch Moon is out I am playing with 2-3 Brutality main and it felt lot easier against Infect, Deaths Shadow and also Burn. After sideboarding it is more in my favor (bringing in Halo, Blessing and against Infect Needle). My Removel until now just contains Path and Dismember and both were fine. Going to replace some Dismembers for Push but won't play 4 Path and 4 Push MD, because there is no need to do this.
So your reasons for not playing spot removals is because it's blanked by a few cards? Having a non-white removal spell helps us get around Blessing/ Vines/ Blossoming Defense as our tokens are mostly white and they need double protection to get around it. Spellskite is always a problem but again, you have more cheap removals to kill it now.
Brutality is much worse against Death Shadow than Push is. It's worse against Collected Company / Zoo/ Merfolk/ Jund/ Abzan/ Eldrazi/ Dredge. Even against Burn/ Infect/ Control decks it's not consistently better. Being able to cast a removal on turn 1 often saves you 4-6 life/ infect counters in the long run. Against control decks, you can draw out a counter or you can totally whiff and take away a spot removal. The card is better against Scapeshift / Ad Nauseam / Living End/ Storm I'll give you that.
Not putting enough pressure shares a similar relationship as not taking enough pressure off the board. You shouldn't be putting so many removals that you dilute your threats but I don't think anyone here is playing less than 10 token generators.
Someone here really needs to explain the power of Collective Brutality. I see it constantly mentioned and don't yet understand why it goes in my 75.
where it shines is against infect and burn. hit an early threat, take away a critical instant or sorcery, drain 2 (for burn), all packaged neatly into 1 card. Tokens' weakness is typically doing one thing per turn. Collective lets us multi task as early as turn 2, and often maintaining card parity.
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Brutality has been good for me. But the max number i would ever play is 2 MB. Or 1 MB and 1 sb. Dont underestimate this card despite its cmc2. If you manage to kill a dork and disrupt a payoff spell from oponent while discarding lingering souls puts you way ahead. Card is not busted here for sure, like say in dredge, but removal+ hand disruption should not be underestimated. Its very strong vs dorks. But dont overplay it. Specially w/ lilianas.
Fatal push seems fine on our deck and on snapcaster decks. We run fetches, ghost quarters and produce fragile tokens therefore seems to me the card fits better here than any other BGx. But then again, dont overplay it.
Dunno if any of you guys read Modern Nexus content. If you dont, google Modern Nexus and read the article made by Ryan Overturf about fatal push in modern. Play fatal push ofc. Dont fall on the trap of overplaying it. There will be many times were you WILL NOT have revolt active.
I read the article. Sheridan has a much better analysis of the card on Modern Nexus.
I will repeat for the 80th time that this card does not need Revolt active to be good. It already kills 90% of Modern without Revolt. The few other big targets can only be answered well by Path to Exile (e.g Kitchen Finks, Wormcoil Engine, Ulamog) which is why playing additional hard removals (Dismember/ Go for the Throat/ Terminate / Murderous Cut) is not the most efficient way to build the deck.
Right now the deck needs to focus on a good early game removal, not a good late game removal. And note that late game threats in most creature decks still die to Fatal Push regardless. Again, I don't know what more I can do to emphasize this.
Brutality has been good for me. But the max number i would ever play is 2 MB. Or 1 MB and 1 sb. Dont underestimate this card despite its cmc2. If you manage to kill a dork and disrupt a payoff spell from oponent while discarding lingering souls puts you way ahead. Card is not busted here for sure, like say in dredge, but removal+ hand disruption should not be underestimated. Its very strong vs dorks. But dont overplay it. Specially w/ lilianas.
Fatal push seems fine on our deck and on snapcaster decks. We run fetches, ghost quarters and produce fragile tokens therefore seems to me the card fits better here than any other BGx. But then again, dont overplay it.
Dunno if any of you guys read Modern Nexus content. If you dont, google Modern Nexus and read the article made by Ryan Overturf about fatal push in modern. Play fatal push ofc. Dont fall on the trap of overplaying it. There will be many times were you WILL NOT have revolt active.
I read the article. Sheridan has a much better analysis of the card on Modern Nexus.
I will repeat for the 80th time that this card does not need Revolt active to be good. It already kills 90% of Modern without Revolt. The few other big targets can only be answered well by Path to Exile (e.g Kitchen Finks, Wormcoil Engine, Ulamog) which is why playing additional hard removals (Dismember/ Go for the Throat/ Terminate / Murderous Cut) is not the most efficient way to build the deck.
Right now the deck needs to focus on a good early game removal, not a good late game removal. And note that late game threats in most creature decks still die to Fatal Push regardless. Again, I don't know what more I can do to emphasize this.
Who'd have guessed I'd be here backing you up?
This is definitely the right stance. Tokens has no lack of late game board advantage. The issue is typically stabilizing. Dismember, our other 1 mana removal can look very stupid if the target is a goblin guide. Disfigure is way too narrow. Now we've got a removal that hits Bob, Goyf, Guide, Swift, Eidolon, Delver, Dorks, Snap, Melira, Anafenza tree spirit, glistener, blighted agent, noble heirarch, kiln fiend, TITI, silvergill, cursecatcher, 2 cmc merfolk lords, ALL MANLANDS, all WITHOUT revolt. With revolt you can also tackle Kalitas, Ezuri, Archdruid, Baloth, reejerey, master of the waves, siege rhino, resto angel..... All this is off the top of my head! Writers at Nexus and SCG have both emphasized that the number of relevant modern creatures you miss with this stupid-good card is 8. EIGHT. There are 8 currently commonly played creatures in modern that you will miss. This card is incredible. If there is anything a nonred deck could do to match bolt, this is about the closest darned thing. And in some ways it loses (opponent at 3 life LOL), but it also wins in others (gofy at 3/4).
8 1-cmc removals is not too much for a mid-late game deck like ours and I don't get why some people feel so. We don't have a meaningful board presence until turn 3 or later (often later), and modern is very much a creature based format. If you fight infect on a regular basis, you have a very very good chance of having to mulligan to look for your early removal. with 8 1-cmc removals, half of which have basically no downside against infect and burn, this is an incredible upgrade to me.
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I have and I enjoy having the removal. I've played too few games to give much more than anecdotal evidence, but in my estimation 4 is the right number. I've been also messing around with a couple Hidden Stockpiles and I love them. Making a guy is the less interesting side of the card. I love being able to sac chump blockers to scry. Makes the card deceptively powerful.
Push never necessarily feels bad. I think we could bump to 2 ghost quarters. It's a good way to tap out and still play the card at full efficiency. Hidden Stockpile is way better then I expected. Pay 1, Scry 1 is pretty great, especially off a sac. We finally have a way to filter the deck. Copter is also a gem in this. I actually think this deck is pretty well positioned.
Considering we have two people here that finds Hidden Stockpile better than expected, I'll give it a shot.
But I can't help be skeptical. I highly doubt a card only good in the late game - and fairly marginally so - is worth playing in the deck. This isn't something you want to jam on turn 2. The only way to generate a token is if the opposing player has a flyer to block and trade or if they cast spot removal on our tokens. So it's very situational as a token generator. The opposing player has a lot of freedom in deciding whether we get the token or not since it only generates one on the end of our turn.
So basically we're playing a 2-mana enchantment for scry effects based on an unfavorable condition. Call me crazy but we can do a lot better than that for 2-mana.
The scry for 1 is nice. I was surprised it wasn't outright garbage. It's a later turn card, but does work, especially once you have multiple tokens out, BB on board and start stalling out. Still needs playtesting but it's somewhat hopeful. And yeah. Turn 2 I would rather play BB or Virtue. Or maybe leave mana up for Path/Push. But still... it's something not as bad as I thought it would be.
Havent Posted in a while because I decided to switch to Merfolk ( also couldnt play much MTG the last 7 months ).
I want to address a few points:
1. Fatal Push. This is almost immediately a 4 of mainboard for tokens
a.) We dont care about 5+ CMC creatures because other than a quick Titan, most of those decks are favorable matchups anyway and at the time they land it we will either have a massive advantage or a different removal spell.
b.) Its better than path because its more focused on the T1 black source. Which actually alters how we can set up our mana base.
c.) Path a mana dork ? Or fatal a mana dork. Fatal is more relevant than path for the first 4-5 turns at LEAST. At which point path starts getting better
d.) I would run 4 Fatal Push + 2 Path initially concidering aggro is "slightly" worse off in the meta and will get less free wins off us without considering push's effect on the format.( only considering bans )
2.) Wescoe's build. This is more BW midrange than tokens since there is no Virtues and no Procession in the deck. I have played against a conventional BW tokens deck and Copter was okay.
a.) Wescoe's list might end up being a better version of "tokens". Because it in theory should eat midrange the same was as conventional tokens.
a.1) It has a better Tron, Fish, Elves matchup which is HUGE.
a.2) Its mana base is far less punishing with the likelyhood of more land hate in the format.
a.3) 2 Bitterblossom is now way better with copter, and allows for looting away discard after T5 which are usually dead draws.
a.4) BW have essentially the best modern Planeswalkers, Removal Package, and General Disruption of any color with Fatal Push being printed. ( Image 4 path + 4 push with Liliana and Souls backup in an Aggro / Midrange Meta )
b.) The deck is extremely synergistic without falling flat when you disrupt it.
3.) Copter in conventional BW Tokens.
a.) 4 is too many unless you MB Auriok Champion for whatever reason ( like I do ). Even then I dont believe 4 is the correct number. 3 would be solid.
b.) Is not a 3 drop, therefore its good :D.
c.) Looting ability allows you to load up on Discard without ruining your late game topdecks.
d.) Bitterblossom is now twice or even 3 times as good. Since it essentially gives your token +2+2 and haste, while the rest attack with your Virtues.
e.) Easy on our crap manabase
f.) UW Control, Tron is pretty unfavourable. Copter fixes the UW matchup by essentially giving us 3/3 haste tokens with Bitter blossom.
4.) BW Tokens General Comments
a.) Consealed courtyard makes our mana so good on the easy turns ( no more Fetch, Shock, Thoughtseize to 15 anymore just to see 5 bolts )
b.) Shambling Vent is good. 2-3 is the correct number I rate because we have EVEN more to do on T1.
c.) If the meta becomes Tron, Burn, Junk we are actually in a very good spot since new Fast Mana and Push means Burn might actually be a favorable matchup, Junk is Auto Win, and Copter builds can help us finally have game against Tron. The likely uptick in Affinity is just a bonus for us and infect no longer has the "Tokens is a bad matchup but I play infect so yolo free wins because T3 kills. Overall the bannings were extremely favorable for us. Along with mana that allows us to run GQ or Tec without having to drop spectral proc.
d.) Git probe ban, and Push printing might inadvertently mean less abrupt decay. Which is great. However Golgari charm now becomes much better as an overall card for mainboard rock decks.
5.) Stockpile.... you must mean Pile'O'Stock.
a.) Not sure how anyone thinks this is playable. Revolt triggers once a turn no matter how many permanents leave.
b.) I cant Imagine ever wanting to sac a creature unless it has an immediate impact on me winning the game. Its far to slow and doesnt help in our difficult matchups. Rather just run Phyrexian Arena and draw 2 cards a turn.
6.) Collective Brutality
b.) I believe our early game is already fixed with nerfs to aggro, push and better mana. At most i would test as a 1 of since tokens often wont have a card to discard mid and lategame, and early game im not entirely convinced its better than just casting copter/virtue/more removal.
7.) How I am building tokens for new meta
Conventional BW Tokens
No Sideboard yet. Extremely meta dependent.
Again, push changes a lot. We might not even need Stony Silence anymore. It might just end up being Burn hate and Ghostly Prison for all aggro together. Then just Tron and combo hate for the rest since midrange will still be easy.
Havent Posted in a while because I decided to switch to Merfolk ( also couldnt play much MTG the last 7 months ).
I want to address a few points:
1. Fatal Push. This is almost immediately a 4 of mainboard for tokens
a.) We dont care about 5+ CMC creatures because other than a quick Titan, most of those decks are favorable matchups anyway and at the time they land it we will either have a massive advantage or a different removal spell.
b.) Its better than path because its more focused on the T1 black source. Which actually alters how we can set up our mana base.
c.) Path a mana dork ? Or fatal a mana dork. Fatal is more relevant than path for the first 4-5 turns at LEAST. At which point path starts getting better
d.) I would run 4 Fatal Push + 2 Path initially concidering aggro is "slightly" worse off in the meta and will get less free wins off us without considering push's effect on the format.( only considering bans )
2.) Wescoe's build. This is more BW midrange than tokens since there is no Virtues and no Procession in the deck. I have played against a conventional BW tokens deck and Copter was okay.
a.) Wescoe's list might end up being a better version of "tokens". Because it in theory should eat midrange the same was as conventional tokens.
a.1) It has a better Tron, Fish, Elves matchup which is HUGE.
a.2) Its mana base is far less punishing with the likelyhood of more land hate in the format.
a.3) 2 Bitterblossom is now way better with copter, and allows for looting away discard after T5 which are usually dead draws.
a.4) BW have essentially the best modern Planeswalkers, Removal Package, and General Disruption of any color with Fatal Push being printed. ( Image 4 path + 4 push with Liliana and Souls backup in an Aggro / Midrange Meta )
b.) The deck is extremely synergistic without falling flat when you disrupt it.
3.) Copter in conventional BW Tokens.
a.) 4 is too many unless you MB Auriok Champion for whatever reason ( like I do ). Even then I dont believe 4 is the correct number. 3 would be solid.
b.) Is not a 3 drop, therefore its good :D.
c.) Looting ability allows you to load up on Discard without ruining your late game topdecks.
d.) Bitterblossom is now twice or even 3 times as good. Since it essentially gives your token +2+2 and haste, while the rest attack with your Virtues.
e.) Easy on our crap manabase
f.) UW Control, Tron is pretty unfavourable. Copter fixes the UW matchup by essentially giving us 3/3 haste tokens with Bitter blossom.
4.) BW Tokens General Comments
a.) Consealed courtyard makes our mana so good on the easy turns ( no more Fetch, Shock, Thoughtseize to 15 anymore just to see 5 bolts )
b.) Shambling Vent is good. 2-3 is the correct number I rate because we have EVEN more to do on T1.
c.) If the meta becomes Tron, Burn, Junk we are actually in a very good spot since new Fast Mana and Push means Burn might actually be a favorable matchup, Junk is Auto Win, and Copter builds can help us finally have game against Tron. The likely uptick in Affinity is just a bonus for us and infect no longer has the "Tokens is a bad matchup but I play infect so yolo free wins because T3 kills. Overall the bannings were extremely favorable for us. Along with mana that allows us to run GQ or Tec without having to drop spectral proc.
d.) Git probe ban, and Push printing might inadvertently mean less abrupt decay. Which is great. However Golgari charm now becomes much better as an overall card for mainboard rock decks.
5.) Stockpile.... you must mean Pile'O'Stock.
a.) Not sure how anyone thinks this is playable. Revolt triggers once a turn no matter how many permanents leave.
b.) I cant Imagine ever wanting to sac a creature unless it has an immediate impact on me winning the game. Its far to slow and doesnt help in our difficult matchups. Rather just run Phyrexian Arena and draw 2 cards a turn.
6.) Collective Brutality
b.) I believe our early game is already fixed with nerfs to aggro, push and better mana. At most i would test as a 1 of since tokens often wont have a card to discard mid and lategame, and early game im not entirely convinced its better than just casting copter/virtue/more removal.
7.) How I am building tokens for new meta
Conventional BW Tokens
No Sideboard yet. Extremely meta dependent.
Again, push changes a lot. We might not even need Stony Silence anymore. It might just end up being Burn hate and Ghostly Prison for all aggro together. Then just Tron and combo hate for the rest since midrange will still be easy.
2.) Wescoe's build is different, not better or worse. You can build it without Copter and with Virtue.
3.e.) We don't have a crap manabase anymore. It's very easy to go a black heavy build even with Spectral now.
3.f.) While I agree Tron is unfavorable and most likely a loss pre-board our post board matchup is highly favorable even without Copter. Tron is probably the reason why you'd run Copter TBH.
Hidden Stockpile
5.) Don't knock it until you ATTEMPT to try it. It works better in numbers. (i.e. having 2 and sacking one will produce 2.)
5.a.) Read above comment. Also it allows us to be aggressive on our turn with having the ability to replace.
5.b.) Let me help you bro. Attack -> Sac -> Scry -> Push/Keep -> End Phase replace dude. Or on their turn. Declare block -> Sac -> Scry -> Push/Keep = Avoid combat.
I don't think you understand how good the scry is... You'll be eating your words soon.
I want to throw my thoughts in. Fatal Push is phenomenal. Definitely running 4 and perhaps even cut to 3 Paths (probably not but maybe).
Hidden stockpile. After testing it, it's not bad but its also not great. I have had a number of games where I've cracked a fetch on T2 and stuck it and then it created a token BUT it will not generate any benefit unless we crack a fetch. There is nothing else that we run that will naturally leave the battlefield on its own. Since it would just replace the token you sac; I would rather run Smugglers Copter or night's whisper.
Also, I'm very excited about the position of this deck however, I have noticed, since the banning. A jump in prices related to tron, all across the board. So though we are in a better spot, they are too.
I want to throw my thoughts in. Fatal Push is phenomenal. Definitely running 4 and perhaps even cut to 3 Paths (probably not but maybe).
Hidden stockpile. After testing it, it's not bad but its also not great. I have had a number of games where I've cracked a fetch on T2 and stuck it and then it created a token BUT it will not generate any benefit unless we crack a fetch. There is nothing else that we run that will naturally leave the battlefield on its own. Since it would just replace the token you sac; I would rather run Smugglers Copter or night's whisper.
Also, I'm very excited about the position of this deck however, I have noticed, since the banning. A jump in prices related to tron, all across the board. So though we are in a better spot, they are too.
Let me rephrase some of that; I was on my phone and didn't have much time to write earlier on my lunch break.
I don't dislike Hidden Stockpile it has been very good and actually won me a few games since testing it and certain situations (having two or more out) it feels incredibly powerful. However I don't think I would want to run more than 2 and counting them on their own as "Token producers" sometimes felt a bit weird. There were a few games where I drew into two of them but had no way to activate the revolt so they were essentially dead cards and it felt extremely bad. So for my own personal taste I think I'm going to test Copter for a little bit. Once the set releases I will probably try a few tournaments using Hidden Stockpile to get some Physical reps in but I don't know if it will change my mind. Like I said, it CAN be good and when it's good it's very good; it just might be a little to conditional for me.
And what I stated about tron earlier, I feel the banning of Probe and GGT was huge for them since fast linear aggro is their weakness. Because of this I have seen a few big jumps in pieces of Tron like Ulamog and Ugin. I have a bad feeling that Tron will be more popular than ever which isn't good news for us.
Which to use, why, and how many? I am currently using RtA because I like the instant speed and early pressure (can also be good against bogles for early unexècted blocks). Bitterblossom is quite an investment and I want to be sure if I include them. Maybe only 2 is not worth it, whereas 2 copies of HSp would be a much more logic inclusion.
I know many of you don´t agree with this, but I feel it has worked well for me though. I am aware that distracts the deck´s focus and I would like to have it replaced. What should I include?
I want to throw my thoughts in. Fatal Push is phenomenal. Definitely running 4 and perhaps even cut to 3 Paths (probably not but maybe).
Hidden stockpile. After testing it, it's not bad but its also not great. I have had a number of games where I've cracked a fetch on T2 and stuck it and then it created a token BUT it will not generate any benefit unless we crack a fetch. There is nothing else that we run that will naturally leave the battlefield on its own. Since it would just replace the token you sac; I would rather run Smugglers Copter or night's whisper.
Also, I'm very excited about the position of this deck however, I have noticed, since the banning. A jump in prices related to tron, all across the board. So though we are in a better spot, they are too.
Let me rephrase some of that; I was on my phone and didn't have much time to write earlier on my lunch break.
I don't dislike Hidden Stockpile it has been very good and actually won me a few games since testing it and certain situations (having two or more out) it feels incredibly powerful. However I don't think I would want to run more than 2 and counting them on their own as "Token producers" sometimes felt a bit weird. There were a few games where I drew into two of them but had no way to activate the revolt so they were essentially dead cards and it felt extremely bad. So for my own personal taste I think I'm going to test Copter for a little bit. Once the set releases I will probably try a few tournaments using Hidden Stockpile to get some Physical reps in but I don't know if it will change my mind. Like I said, it CAN be good and when it's good it's very good; it just might be a little to conditional for me.
And what I stated about tron earlier, I feel the banning of Probe and GGT was huge for them since fast linear aggro is their weakness. Because of this I have seen a few big jumps in pieces of Tron like Ulamog and Ugin. I have a bad feeling that Tron will be more popular than ever which isn't good news for us.
That's what people thought about the Splinter Twin ban - Tron getting more popular that is. Dredge is only marginally weaker than before since they dredge 4 vs 6 and is a bit worse against Cage. Infect does lose quite a bit from Probe but it's still a popular deck and probably still one of the top decks in the format.
3 tokens (w/out flying)+ a free up-to-3cmc spell seems like it deserves consideration, or at least a solid denouncement before dismissing it. Though, hard to imagine ever being happy to get that instead of Sorin.
I don't see the point of running Smuggler's Copter if you can just run Selfless Spirit. Here's the comparison:
(a) Both turn on spot removal, although Copter turns on sideboard cards like nature's claim and main deck cards like Kolaghan's Command.
(b) Both are good against board wipes, in the sense that Spirit protects your entire board while Smuggler is protected from sorcery speed wipes. However, Spirit has the edge in terms of boardwipes as you need to crew a token after a boardwipe with copter (unless you have a Bitterblossom).
(c) Selfless spirit is good on its own while Smuggler's Copter is dependent on other tokens. You're still attacking for "3" with Spirit because you're not crewing a token to attack with it. Copter only deals 1 additional damage when played on turn 2 and attacking on turn 3 vs Spirit. Otherwise they both deal 3 damage individually.
(d) Copter has looting applications which is very good in the late game. Spirit has combat applications since block + sac means you can trade favorably a huge number of creatures. Most of my opponents completely forget about Spirit's effect and make terrible combat choices.
(e) Multiple copies of Spirit is better than multiple copies of Copter for reasons listed above both offensively and defensively.
If I weigh these points, for me Selfless Spirit has a greater edge in utility. In fact, I've used 1 copy in my main for quite a while and it has been fantastic.
Which to use, why, and how many? I am currently using RtA because I like the instant speed and early pressure (can also be good against bogles for early unexècted blocks). Bitterblossom is quite an investment and I want to be sure if I include them. Maybe only 2 is not worth it, whereas 2 copies of HSp would be a much more logic inclusion.
I know many of you don´t agree with this, but I feel it has worked well for me though. I am aware that distracts the deck´s focus and I would like to have it replaced. What should I include?
I still like Raise the Alarm. I think it presents shenanigan-opportunities with Smuggler's Copter. Bitterblossom may be better ultimately, I've just never cared enough before to round up enough copies of BB to give it a try. Curiously, Rex decided recently he wanted to give BB a try so I bought two more copies of the latter today. Rex has produced better results than BW tokens for me and it's just not wise to argue with Rex anyway.
I am quite on-board with Anguished Unmaking. I have one main-deck and one more side-board. It gives me an out for just about everything and it's rarely dead. I don't think I'd run three total on a bet, but two is solid for me.
Sram's Expertise is three tokens for four mana. What card are you going to hold until you get four mana just to get it in for free? I doubt I would test it if someone gave me a copy.
I don't see the point of running Smuggler's Copter if you can just run Selfless Spirit. Here's the comparison:
(a) Both turn on spot removal, although Copter turns on sideboard cards like nature's claim and main deck cards like Kolaghan's Command.
(b) Both are good against board wipes, in the sense that Spirit protects your entire board while Smuggler is protected from sorcery speed wipes. However, Spirit has the edge in terms of boardwipes as you need to crew a token after a boardwipe with copter (unless you have a Bitterblossom).
(c) Selfless spirit is good on its own while Smuggler's Copter is dependent on other tokens. You're still attacking for "3" with Spirit because you're not crewing a token to attack with it. Copter only deals 1 additional damage when played on turn 2 and attacking on turn 3 vs Spirit. Otherwise they both deal 3 damage individually.
(d) Copter has looting applications which is very good in the late game. Spirit has combat applications since block + sac means you can trade favorably a huge number of creatures. Most of my opponents completely forget about Spirit's effect and make terrible combat choices.
(e) Multiple copies of Spirit is better than multiple copies of Copter for reasons listed above both offensively and defensively.
If I weigh these points, for me Selfless Spirit has a greater edge in utility. In fact, I've used 1 copy in my main for quite a while and it has been fantastic.
It's really just for the filtering. I have had great sucess with selfless spirit and haven't tested Copter, so I want to give it a fair shake.
Aside from the myriad of reasons I already provided for you? Please list the 50% of match-ups you face and the other 50% you don't face. And in return I'll show you the metagame breakdown of decks in percentages.
Grixis Delver already runs lightning bolt in addition to snapcaster mage. All the deck needs is some form of hard removal - Terminate and the deck gets little to no benefit from having FP in the deck except in match-ups where you're already favored.
Fatal Push is arguably just as good, if not better, than Dark Blast against Infect. Yes you can't recur it but you can get around counters completely. It's also illogical to compare cards that can belong in the main with sideboard cards like EE and Flaying Tendrils.
Snapcaster mage makes the deck better at grinding. That's not exactly our problem. Also, it is a nonbo with most our spells because they're sorcery speed.
Zealous persecution is a powerful card but it's much more of a sideboard card than Fatal Push is. I won't even comment on Anguished Unmaking in the main.
So your reasons for not playing spot removals is because it's blanked by a few cards? Having a non-white removal spell helps us get around Blessing/ Vines/ Blossoming Defense as our tokens are mostly white and they need double protection to get around it. Spellskite is always a problem but again, you have more cheap removals to kill it now.
Brutality is much worse against Death Shadow than Push is. It's worse against Collected Company / Zoo/ Merfolk/ Jund/ Abzan/ Eldrazi/ Dredge. Even against Burn/ Infect/ Control decks it's not consistently better. Being able to cast a removal on turn 1 often saves you 4-6 life/ infect counters in the long run. Against control decks, you can draw out a counter or you can totally whiff and take away a spot removal. The card is better against Scapeshift / Ad Nauseam / Living End/ Storm I'll give you that.
Not putting enough pressure shares a similar relationship as not taking enough pressure off the board. You shouldn't be putting so many removals that you dilute your threats but I don't think anyone here is playing less than 10 token generators.
where it shines is against infect and burn. hit an early threat, take away a critical instant or sorcery, drain 2 (for burn), all packaged neatly into 1 card. Tokens' weakness is typically doing one thing per turn. Collective lets us multi task as early as turn 2, and often maintaining card parity.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I read the article. Sheridan has a much better analysis of the card on Modern Nexus.
I will repeat for the 80th time that this card does not need Revolt active to be good. It already kills 90% of Modern without Revolt. The few other big targets can only be answered well by Path to Exile (e.g Kitchen Finks, Wormcoil Engine, Ulamog) which is why playing additional hard removals (Dismember/ Go for the Throat/ Terminate / Murderous Cut) is not the most efficient way to build the deck.
Right now the deck needs to focus on a good early game removal, not a good late game removal. And note that late game threats in most creature decks still die to Fatal Push regardless. Again, I don't know what more I can do to emphasize this.
Who'd have guessed I'd be here backing you up?
This is definitely the right stance. Tokens has no lack of late game board advantage. The issue is typically stabilizing. Dismember, our other 1 mana removal can look very stupid if the target is a goblin guide. Disfigure is way too narrow. Now we've got a removal that hits Bob, Goyf, Guide, Swift, Eidolon, Delver, Dorks, Snap, Melira, Anafenza tree spirit, glistener, blighted agent, noble heirarch, kiln fiend, TITI, silvergill, cursecatcher, 2 cmc merfolk lords, ALL MANLANDS, all WITHOUT revolt. With revolt you can also tackle Kalitas, Ezuri, Archdruid, Baloth, reejerey, master of the waves, siege rhino, resto angel..... All this is off the top of my head! Writers at Nexus and SCG have both emphasized that the number of relevant modern creatures you miss with this stupid-good card is 8. EIGHT. There are 8 currently commonly played creatures in modern that you will miss. This card is incredible. If there is anything a nonred deck could do to match bolt, this is about the closest darned thing. And in some ways it loses (opponent at 3 life LOL), but it also wins in others (gofy at 3/4).
8 1-cmc removals is not too much for a mid-late game deck like ours and I don't get why some people feel so. We don't have a meaningful board presence until turn 3 or later (often later), and modern is very much a creature based format. If you fight infect on a regular basis, you have a very very good chance of having to mulligan to look for your early removal. with 8 1-cmc removals, half of which have basically no downside against infect and burn, this is an incredible upgrade to me.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I haven't but I should start with it being a four of plus path. Might go lower but we will see
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-01-17-bw-tokens/
Push never necessarily feels bad. I think we could bump to 2 ghost quarters. It's a good way to tap out and still play the card at full efficiency. Hidden Stockpile is way better then I expected. Pay 1, Scry 1 is pretty great, especially off a sac. We finally have a way to filter the deck. Copter is also a gem in this. I actually think this deck is pretty well positioned.
But I can't help be skeptical. I highly doubt a card only good in the late game - and fairly marginally so - is worth playing in the deck. This isn't something you want to jam on turn 2. The only way to generate a token is if the opposing player has a flyer to block and trade or if they cast spot removal on our tokens. So it's very situational as a token generator. The opposing player has a lot of freedom in deciding whether we get the token or not since it only generates one on the end of our turn.
So basically we're playing a 2-mana enchantment for scry effects based on an unfavorable condition. Call me crazy but we can do a lot better than that for 2-mana.
I want to address a few points:
1. Fatal Push. This is almost immediately a 4 of mainboard for tokens
a.) We dont care about 5+ CMC creatures because other than a quick Titan, most of those decks are favorable matchups anyway and at the time they land it we will either have a massive advantage or a different removal spell.
b.) Its better than path because its more focused on the T1 black source. Which actually alters how we can set up our mana base.
c.) Path a mana dork ? Or fatal a mana dork. Fatal is more relevant than path for the first 4-5 turns at LEAST. At which point path starts getting better
d.) I would run 4 Fatal Push + 2 Path initially concidering aggro is "slightly" worse off in the meta and will get less free wins off us without considering push's effect on the format.( only considering bans )
2.) Wescoe's build. This is more BW midrange than tokens since there is no Virtues and no Procession in the deck. I have played against a conventional BW tokens deck and Copter was okay.
a.) Wescoe's list might end up being a better version of "tokens". Because it in theory should eat midrange the same was as conventional tokens.
a.1) It has a better Tron, Fish, Elves matchup which is HUGE.
a.2) Its mana base is far less punishing with the likelyhood of more land hate in the format.
a.3) 2 Bitterblossom is now way better with copter, and allows for looting away discard after T5 which are usually dead draws.
a.4) BW have essentially the best modern Planeswalkers, Removal Package, and General Disruption of any color with Fatal Push being printed. ( Image 4 path + 4 push with Liliana and Souls backup in an Aggro / Midrange Meta )
b.) The deck is extremely synergistic without falling flat when you disrupt it.
3.) Copter in conventional BW Tokens.
a.) 4 is too many unless you MB Auriok Champion for whatever reason ( like I do ). Even then I dont believe 4 is the correct number. 3 would be solid.
b.) Is not a 3 drop, therefore its good :D.
c.) Looting ability allows you to load up on Discard without ruining your late game topdecks.
d.) Bitterblossom is now twice or even 3 times as good. Since it essentially gives your token +2+2 and haste, while the rest attack with your Virtues.
e.) Easy on our crap manabase
f.) UW Control, Tron is pretty unfavourable. Copter fixes the UW matchup by essentially giving us 3/3 haste tokens with Bitter blossom.
4.) BW Tokens General Comments
a.) Consealed courtyard makes our mana so good on the easy turns ( no more Fetch, Shock, Thoughtseize to 15 anymore just to see 5 bolts )
b.) Shambling Vent is good. 2-3 is the correct number I rate because we have EVEN more to do on T1.
c.) If the meta becomes Tron, Burn, Junk we are actually in a very good spot since new Fast Mana and Push means Burn might actually be a favorable matchup, Junk is Auto Win, and Copter builds can help us finally have game against Tron. The likely uptick in Affinity is just a bonus for us and infect no longer has the "Tokens is a bad matchup but I play infect so yolo free wins because T3 kills. Overall the bannings were extremely favorable for us. Along with mana that allows us to run GQ or Tec without having to drop spectral proc.
d.) Git probe ban, and Push printing might inadvertently mean less abrupt decay. Which is great. However Golgari charm now becomes much better as an overall card for mainboard rock decks.
5.) Stockpile.... you must mean Pile'O'Stock.
a.) Not sure how anyone thinks this is playable. Revolt triggers once a turn no matter how many permanents leave.
b.) I cant Imagine ever wanting to sac a creature unless it has an immediate impact on me winning the game. Its far to slow and doesnt help in our difficult matchups. Rather just run Phyrexian Arena and draw 2 cards a turn.
6.) Collective Brutality
b.) I believe our early game is already fixed with nerfs to aggro, push and better mana. At most i would test as a 1 of since tokens often wont have a card to discard mid and lategame, and early game im not entirely convinced its better than just casting copter/virtue/more removal.
7.) How I am building tokens for new meta
Conventional BW Tokens
2 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Fetid Heath
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Token Producers / Creatures:
4 Lingering Souls
4 Bitterblossom
4 Spectral Procession
3 Smugglers Copter
3 Auriok Champion
1 Timely Reinforcements
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Sorin, Sollemn Visitor
No Sideboard yet. Extremely meta dependent.
Again, push changes a lot. We might not even need Stony Silence anymore. It might just end up being Burn hate and Ghostly Prison for all aggro together. Then just Tron and combo hate for the rest since midrange will still be easy.
Adjustments to Wescoe's list.
4 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Disruption:
2 Wrath of God
2 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Smugglers Copter
4 Lingering Souls
3 Blade Splicer
2 Bitterblossom
Planeswalkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Sollemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wrath of God
1 Thoughtseize
3 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Disenchant
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Nevermore
2 Timely Reinforcements
Final Thoughts: Mirran Crusader and Blood Baron of Vizkopa will be nearly auto win in many matchups in the new modern.
2.) Wescoe's build is different, not better or worse. You can build it without Copter and with Virtue.
3.e.) We don't have a crap manabase anymore. It's very easy to go a black heavy build even with Spectral now.
3.f.) While I agree Tron is unfavorable and most likely a loss pre-board our post board matchup is highly favorable even without Copter. Tron is probably the reason why you'd run Copter TBH.
Hidden Stockpile
5.) Don't knock it until you ATTEMPT to try it. It works better in numbers. (i.e. having 2 and sacking one will produce 2.)
5.a.) Read above comment. Also it allows us to be aggressive on our turn with having the ability to replace.
5.b.) Let me help you bro. Attack -> Sac -> Scry -> Push/Keep -> End Phase replace dude. Or on their turn. Declare block -> Sac -> Scry -> Push/Keep = Avoid combat.
I don't think you understand how good the scry is... You'll be eating your words soon.
Hidden stockpile. After testing it, it's not bad but its also not great. I have had a number of games where I've cracked a fetch on T2 and stuck it and then it created a token BUT it will not generate any benefit unless we crack a fetch. There is nothing else that we run that will naturally leave the battlefield on its own. Since it would just replace the token you sac; I would rather run Smugglers Copter or night's whisper.
Also, I'm very excited about the position of this deck however, I have noticed, since the banning. A jump in prices related to tron, all across the board. So though we are in a better spot, they are too.
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Let me rephrase some of that; I was on my phone and didn't have much time to write earlier on my lunch break.
I don't dislike Hidden Stockpile it has been very good and actually won me a few games since testing it and certain situations (having two or more out) it feels incredibly powerful. However I don't think I would want to run more than 2 and counting them on their own as "Token producers" sometimes felt a bit weird. There were a few games where I drew into two of them but had no way to activate the revolt so they were essentially dead cards and it felt extremely bad. So for my own personal taste I think I'm going to test Copter for a little bit. Once the set releases I will probably try a few tournaments using Hidden Stockpile to get some Physical reps in but I don't know if it will change my mind. Like I said, it CAN be good and when it's good it's very good; it just might be a little to conditional for me.
And what I stated about tron earlier, I feel the banning of Probe and GGT was huge for them since fast linear aggro is their weakness. Because of this I have seen a few big jumps in pieces of Tron like Ulamog and Ugin. I have a bad feeling that Tron will be more popular than ever which isn't good news for us.
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1- Raise the alarm / Bitterblossom / Hidden Stockpile:
Which to use, why, and how many? I am currently using RtA because I like the instant speed and early pressure (can also be good against bogles for early unexècted blocks). Bitterblossom is quite an investment and I want to be sure if I include them. Maybe only 2 is not worth it, whereas 2 copies of HSp would be a much more logic inclusion.
2- Anguished unmaking maindeck:
I know many of you don´t agree with this, but I feel it has worked well for me though. I am aware that distracts the deck´s focus and I would like to have it replaced. What should I include?
Thanks a lot and I leave my deck here.
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Flooded Strand
4x Godless Shrine
3x Plains
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Shambling Vent
2x Windswept Heath
1x Swamp
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4x Intangible Virtue
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Raise the Alarm
1x Timely Reinforcements
REMOVAL
3x Path to Exile
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Collective Brutality
3x Fatal Push
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Smuggler's Copter
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Zealous Persecution
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
That's what people thought about the Splinter Twin ban - Tron getting more popular that is. Dredge is only marginally weaker than before since they dredge 4 vs 6 and is a bit worse against Cage. Infect does lose quite a bit from Probe but it's still a popular deck and probably still one of the top decks in the format.
3 tokens (w/out flying)+ a free up-to-3cmc spell seems like it deserves consideration, or at least a solid denouncement before dismissing it. Though, hard to imagine ever being happy to get that instead of Sorin.
(a) Both turn on spot removal, although Copter turns on sideboard cards like nature's claim and main deck cards like Kolaghan's Command.
(b) Both are good against board wipes, in the sense that Spirit protects your entire board while Smuggler is protected from sorcery speed wipes. However, Spirit has the edge in terms of boardwipes as you need to crew a token after a boardwipe with copter (unless you have a Bitterblossom).
(c) Selfless spirit is good on its own while Smuggler's Copter is dependent on other tokens. You're still attacking for "3" with Spirit because you're not crewing a token to attack with it. Copter only deals 1 additional damage when played on turn 2 and attacking on turn 3 vs Spirit. Otherwise they both deal 3 damage individually.
(d) Copter has looting applications which is very good in the late game. Spirit has combat applications since block + sac means you can trade favorably a huge number of creatures. Most of my opponents completely forget about Spirit's effect and make terrible combat choices.
(e) Multiple copies of Spirit is better than multiple copies of Copter for reasons listed above both offensively and defensively.
If I weigh these points, for me Selfless Spirit has a greater edge in utility. In fact, I've used 1 copy in my main for quite a while and it has been fantastic.
I still like Raise the Alarm. I think it presents shenanigan-opportunities with Smuggler's Copter. Bitterblossom may be better ultimately, I've just never cared enough before to round up enough copies of BB to give it a try. Curiously, Rex decided recently he wanted to give BB a try so I bought two more copies of the latter today. Rex has produced better results than BW tokens for me and it's just not wise to argue with Rex anyway.
I am quite on-board with Anguished Unmaking. I have one main-deck and one more side-board. It gives me an out for just about everything and it's rarely dead. I don't think I'd run three total on a bet, but two is solid for me.
Sram's Expertise is three tokens for four mana. What card are you going to hold until you get four mana just to get it in for free? I doubt I would test it if someone gave me a copy.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
It's really just for the filtering. I have had great sucess with selfless spirit and haven't tested Copter, so I want to give it a fair shake.
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