I mean, why should we play more than 4 discards.. we get tokens fast and pump them up.. we have blockers against Infect and Affinity and we can finish pretty fast with Sorin..
Except not every deck in Modern is against Affinity and Infect. Modern is such a diverse format it is nice to have universal answers such as hand disruption and path to exile. We usually attack for 3-6 by turn 4. BGx is considered slow when facing decks like RG Scapeshift or Tron, and they run more hand disruption (e.g Liliana) and more explosive threats. Considering we are slower, we actually could use more hand disruption for these matches. That's why I started running 3 Liliana of the Veil although I recently replaced one for Timely Reinforcement to test.
Another reason why we need hand disruption is because it is our best turn 1 play, and therefore, efficient use of our mana. Path to Exile is a pretty terrible turn 1 play and is a reactive spell rather than a proactive one. If you do remove hand disruption, you should be replacing them with 1-mana mana dorks to compensate.
Biggest changes were taking out Spectral Procession and Intangible Virtue for more 'walkers, sweepers, and Smuggler's Copter.
Haven't watched the videos yet bc of work, but the list does look interesting.
Biggest changes were taking out Spectral Procession and Intangible Virtue for more 'walkers, sweepers, and Smuggler's Copter.
Haven't watched the videos yet bc of work, but the list does look interesting.
I think it's wrong to build this deck just to combat RG Tron. That deck is maybe 5% of the meta. In fact, Raise the Alarm is arguably better than Smuggler's Copter as a threat. You're dealing 2 damage even without anthems (not far from 3), you don't have to crew it, it's instant speed, and it's much better when you combine it with anthems. Spectral Procession is one of the best cards against combo.
Also the curve is way too high to justify 9 four-drops in the deck, especially when you combine it with 4 ghost quarters which puts you back a land.
I discovered Stitcher's Graft and ask myself why I did not read about this card in any bw or gw tokens duscussions.. since 99% of the decks run Virtue, our tokens have vigilance.. even if virtue is not on battlefield, who cares for sacrificing one tokens after it already dealt 4 damage, we have lot of them.. just attach Graft to the next one.. ??:
It's a very bad card. It's nice that you can play it turn 1 but it basically makes spot removal effective against us. What kills it from being good is the constant equip cost. Turn 1-6 you really have don't have the luxury to equip things over and over again. The untap clause is just adding insult to injury.
Spectral possession seems bad in a world of combo. Of course, I think BB is pretty bad in this meta too. Main board Timely and Midnight Hauntings have been doing so much better.
Spectral possession seems bad in a world of combo. Of course, I think BB is pretty bad in this meta too. Main board Timely and Midnight Hauntings have been doing so much better.
Most of our cards are mediocre against combo decks but spectral procession provides the fastest clock we have aside from raise the alarm. Midnight Haunting tends to be good against the counterspell decks but right now they're at an all time decline. I agree Timely Reinforcement is pretty good in the meta right now.
If you're going to splash green for the Oath of Ajani then you have to play Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, the 3 mana token producing PW. Alternate ramp in the form of Noble Hierarch is also, from my POV, non-negotiable in the now 3-color deck that cannot afford turn 1 discard plays as it needs to quickly advance its mana (and by extension, game plan). Black seems less and less necessary except for our starboy, Lingering Souls and perhaps Sorin.
agree with Nissa as a must if you want to add green.
I enjoy the idea of having the beautiful perfect hand like how Wescoe says it can happen. More damage. But let's be honest. How reliable is that opening hand.
When I ran the LotV she did massive work. I'm not sure how she would fair right now though. It'd be interesting to slot four of and see how she runs.
I enjoy the idea of having the beautiful perfect hand like how Wescoe says it can happen. More damage. But let's be honest. How reliable is that opening hand.
When I ran the LotV she did massive work. I'm not sure how she would fair right now though. It'd be interesting to slot four of and see how she runs.
LotV is consistently amazing. I would say she is bad against the mirror and things like Affinity - a good match-up regardless - but everywhere else she is very good. I think if you run regular BW Tokens there is no reason not to run her. She doubles as removal (much needed in this deck) or as hand disruption (necessary against the unfair decks). Her ultimate is relevant maybe 10-15% of the time but can give you free wins you don't deserve.
Biggest changes were taking out Spectral Procession and Intangible Virtue for more 'walkers, sweepers, and Smuggler's Copter.
Haven't watched the videos yet bc of work, but the list does look interesting.
I think it's wrong to build this deck just to combat RG Tron. That deck is maybe 5% of the meta. In fact, Raise the Alarm is arguably better than Smuggler's Copter as a threat. You're dealing 2 damage even without anthems (not far from 3), you don't have to crew it, it's instant speed, and it's much better when you combine it with anthems. Spectral Procession is one of the best cards against combo.
Also the curve is way too high to justify 9 four-drops in the deck, especially when you combine it with 4 ghost quarters which puts you back a land.
I discovered Stitcher's Graft and ask myself why I did not read about this card in any bw or gw tokens duscussions.. since 99% of the decks run Virtue, our tokens have vigilance.. even if virtue is not on battlefield, who cares for sacrificing one tokens after it already dealt 4 damage, we have lot of them.. just attach Graft to the next one.. ??:
It's a very bad card. It's nice that you can play it turn 1 but it basically makes spot removal effective against us. What kills it from being good is the constant equip cost. Turn 1-6 you really have don't have the luxury to equip things over and over again. The untap clause is just adding insult to injury.
We don't need to equip over and over again because of Virtue. Even if virtue is not on the battlefield, I don't care if one token stays tapped after dealing 4 damage because I always have 2 or 3 of them..
I will splash green and with Birds of paradise we have 3 mana on turn 2 and we even stay strong against Infect because we have a chump blocker on turn 1..
You're describing a win-more scenario. If you have both virtue and a bunch of tokens on the field, you don't care about having this equipment on the field.
In particular, splashing red for lightning bolt will not only give you that 3 damage reach but also be far more versatile throughout the game when you need to be defensive. There are also other better 1-mana alternatives.
I am talking about the equipment combined with a green splash.. we get faster and pump faster.. I had quite often problems with not being fast enough and my opponent had enough time for drawing his pieces..
With Birds, Graft and Virtue we get fast and big so the opponent gets defensive from the start of the game and with Oath of Ajani and the Planeswalkers he will not know what to do first.. Pumping with Sorin, Gideon and Ajani Mentor.. I am thinking about remove all discard cards because I don't care what he has in hand.. I will have 5/5 flyers by turn 4 or 5..
Okay maybe viable in an aggro oriented GW token build, but for BW tokens, it is obviously not a card we want or need.
If I did run GW tokens, I would run more than 4 Birds of Paradise for mana dorks. If you don't get turn 1 mana ramp, you're essentially playing a bad tokens deck due to lack of interaction. Matt Nass ran 10 mana dorks which seems ridiculous but is a big part of its consistency.
I enjoy the idea of having the beautiful perfect hand like how Wescoe says it can happen. More damage. But let's be honest. How reliable is that opening hand.
When I ran the LotV she did massive work. I'm not sure how she would fair right now though. It'd be interesting to slot four of and see how she runs.
LotV is consistently amazing. I would say she is bad against the mirror and things like Affinity - a good match-up regardless - but everywhere else she is very good. I think if you run regular BW Tokens there is no reason not to run her. She doubles as removal (much needed in this deck) or as hand disruption (necessary against the unfair decks). Her ultimate is relevant maybe 10-15% of the time but can give you free wins you don't deserve.
Biggest changes were taking out Spectral Procession and Intangible Virtue for more 'walkers, sweepers, and Smuggler's Copter.
Haven't watched the videos yet bc of work, but the list does look interesting.
I think it's wrong to build this deck just to combat RG Tron. That deck is maybe 5% of the meta. In fact, Raise the Alarm is arguably better than Smuggler's Copter as a threat. You're dealing 2 damage even without anthems (not far from 3), you don't have to crew it, it's instant speed, and it's much better when you combine it with anthems. Spectral Procession is one of the best cards against combo.
Also the curve is way too high to justify 9 four-drops in the deck, especially when you combine it with 4 ghost quarters which puts you back a land.
I discovered Stitcher's Graft and ask myself why I did not read about this card in any bw or gw tokens duscussions.. since 99% of the decks run Virtue, our tokens have vigilance.. even if virtue is not on battlefield, who cares for sacrificing one tokens after it already dealt 4 damage, we have lot of them.. just attach Graft to the next one.. ??:
It's a very bad card. It's nice that you can play it turn 1 but it basically makes spot removal effective against us. What kills it from being good is the constant equip cost. Turn 1-6 you really have don't have the luxury to equip things over and over again. The untap clause is just adding insult to injury.
We don't need to equip over and over again because of Virtue. Even if virtue is not on the battlefield, I don't care if one token stays tapped after dealing 4 damage because I always have 2 or 3 of them..
I will splash green and with Birds of paradise we have 3 mana on turn 2 and we even stay strong against Infect because we have a chump blocker on turn 1..
You're describing a win-more scenario. If you have both virtue and a bunch of tokens on the field, you don't care about having this equipment on the field.
In particular, splashing red for lightning bolt will not only give you that 3 damage reach but also be far more versatile throughout the game when you need to be defensive. There are also other better 1-mana alternatives.
I definitely have to agree with Jongsl5 on this matter, Graft is awful, and even in GW there would be many much better options. If I was going to run any janky equipment I'd run Mask of Memory which I have debated testing before as it helps with stalls and digging through flood.
Ok so first off Fatal Push is probably the single best black removal spell ever printed and I without a doubt say we should run at a minimum 2-3. It interacts with fetchlands, punishes opponents for using removal, and rewards chump blocking.
Second Sram's Expertise is probably good for us but I'm not sure in what number, I could see cutting a couple Spectral for it but it needs testing.
Ok so first off Fatal Push is probably the single best black removal spell ever printed and I without a doubt say we should run at a minimum 2-3. It interacts with fetchlands, punishes opponents for using removal, and rewards chump blocking.
Second Sram's Expertise is probably good for us but I'm not sure in what number, I could see cutting a couple Spectral for it but it needs testing.
Yup it is about time. The hype is real. Lack of good early black removal was one of the primary reasons I'm using a red splash and now I really have to test the original variant.
Now there is also less incentives that Jund has over Abzan. This is definitely a big impact card on the meta. Poor Infect.
Sram's expertise probably can't make the cut because other 4-drops are more powerful. I could see it in a GW token variant with a lot of 3-mana planeswalkers.
Ok so first off Fatal Push is probably the single best black removal spell ever printed and I without a doubt say we should run at a minimum 2-3. It interacts with fetchlands, punishes opponents for using removal, and rewards chump blocking.
Second Sram's Expertise is probably good for us but I'm not sure in what number, I could see cutting a couple Spectral for it but it needs testing.
Yup it is about time. The hype is real. Lack of good early black removal was one of the primary reasons I'm using a red splash and now I really have to test the original variant.
Now there is also less incentives that Jund has over Abzan. This is definitely a big impact card on the meta. Poor Infect.
Sram's expertise probably can't make the cut because other 4-drops are more powerful. I could see it in a GW token variant with a lot of 3-mana planeswalkers.
LOL "Poor Infect" indeed, the simple fact that Fatal Push rewards fetchlands is stupidly broken. As for Sram's that pretty much was my exact thoughts, it's not great if you have anything else that costs 4+, you pretty much want it to be the top of the curve, though dropping Souls off it is rather disgusting.
Fatal Push looks great. But it won´t replace Path. Was playing 2 Dismember besides Path and one gets the cut for Push, but not sure keeping 1 Dismember. It can still be played T1, hits Smasher and there a a few cases where I was able to kill a very big creature (Titan, Iona etc) with 1 chump + Dismember.
Sram´s could be good in the GW Token shell. T1 Dork, T2 Spectral, T3 Sram´s + Nissa (-2 Nissa) or Oath of Ajani or Virtue for up to 13 power on T3 sounds nice. You could still follow up with Township T5 and deal an insane amount of damage.
Of course it can't replace Path but it covers all the weaknesses of that card so they have very good synergy. What BW Tokens ALWAYS needed was efficient 1 mana removal that did not ramp your opponent. The difference between a 1 mana removal and a 2 mana one is huge. This thing is basically superior to Terminate/ murderous cut/ Dismember in like 85% of cases.
Unless Eldrazi and Titanshift is a big part of your meta, there is no reason not to,run 4 of these. Add 1-2 two mana removals if you really need to kill more fatties but this deck struggles much more against smaller aggro decks than the midrange ones. Actually against midrange this card hits everything in Jund and Abzan, only missing Gurmag Angler and Tasigur
Unless Eldrazi and Titanshift is a big part of your meta, there is no reason not to,run 4 of these. Add 1-2 two mana removals if you really need to kill more fatties...
4 Path + 4 Push? Seems overkill.
Definitely overkill, I think you should just shave 1-2 Murderous Cut for 1-2 Push.
Unless Eldrazi and Titanshift is a big part of your meta, there is no reason not to,run 4 of these. Add 1-2 two mana removals if you really need to kill more fatties...
4 Path + 4 Push? Seems overkill.
Definitely overkill, I think you should just shave 1-2 Murderous Cut for 1-2 Push.
So you guys advocate running a mere 6 removals total? Are we not playing in the same meta or the same deck? Seriously I am curious what lists you guys are running. Jund runs 12 (16 if you count Liliana of the Veil, which you should) removals to give you bit of a perspective and they run far better defensive creatures.
BW Tokens is literally craving more removals. We run 11-13 threats, 4 anthems, couple planeswalkers, and the rest should be dedicated to lands and control elements. Because we don't stabilize the board quickly, it desperately needs control elements in the form of removals especially in the early game. It's the main reason why Sorin Solemn Visitor is now a staple in this deck because this deck has a tendency to lag behind but Sorin cushions your life total dramatically. I remember the good old days when people doubted how good Sorin was and it only took a few testing to illustrate a flaw in their evaluation.
It doesn't take a genius to realize 4 Fatal Push has to be a staple in this deck. That's like playing Jund with 2 Lightning Bolt.
I also felt that depending on the meta, Fateful Push could easily be a 4-of in the deck. I run 4 Doom Blade and 4 Path to Exile currently in the main board, with Dismember in the sideboard and would run this over Doom Blade.
Unless Eldrazi and Titanshift is a big part of your meta, there is no reason not to,run 4 of these. Add 1-2 two mana removals if you really need to kill more fatties...
4 Path + 4 Push? Seems overkill.
Definitely overkill, I think you should just shave 1-2 Murderous Cut for 1-2 Push.
So you guys advocate running a mere 6 removals total? Are we not playing in the same meta or the same deck? Seriously I am curious what lists you guys are running. Jund runs 12 (16 if you count Liliana of the Veil, which you should) removals to give you bit of a perspective and they run far better defensive creatures.
BW Tokens is literally craving more removals. We run 11-13 threats, 4 anthems, couple planeswalkers, and the rest should be dedicated to lands and control elements. Because we don't stabilize the board quickly, it desperately needs control elements in the form of removals especially in the early game. It's the main reason why Sorin Solemn Visitor is now a staple in this deck because this deck has a tendency to lag behind but Sorin cushions your life total dramatically. I remember the good old days when people doubted how good Sorin was and it only took a few testing to illustrate a flaw in their evaluation.
It doesn't take a genius to realize 4 Fatal Push has to be a staple in this deck.
Yeah I have to agree with Jongsl5 on this, I'll need to find the space to run a full set but I can't see running less than 3 Fatal Push. This also makes 8 Fetchland minimum necessary I'd say as we will want to make sure that the full effect is reliable.
I might definitely want to test Sram's Expertise. I'm a little sad Spectral can't be cast from it. And I agree with what has been stated already. To play it ideally you don't want much in your deck that you can't play off it. Maybe cutting spectrals and replacing them with Midnight Haunting?
I just Imagine playing this card and getting a Timely reinforcements with it. Seems cool on paper but I'll need to test it.
Except not every deck in Modern is against Affinity and Infect. Modern is such a diverse format it is nice to have universal answers such as hand disruption and path to exile. We usually attack for 3-6 by turn 4. BGx is considered slow when facing decks like RG Scapeshift or Tron, and they run more hand disruption (e.g Liliana) and more explosive threats. Considering we are slower, we actually could use more hand disruption for these matches. That's why I started running 3 Liliana of the Veil although I recently replaced one for Timely Reinforcement to test.
Another reason why we need hand disruption is because it is our best turn 1 play, and therefore, efficient use of our mana. Path to Exile is a pretty terrible turn 1 play and is a reactive spell rather than a proactive one. If you do remove hand disruption, you should be replacing them with 1-mana mana dorks to compensate.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13709&writer=Craig Wescoe&articledate=12-30-2016
Biggest changes were taking out Spectral Procession and Intangible Virtue for more 'walkers, sweepers, and Smuggler's Copter.
Haven't watched the videos yet bc of work, but the list does look interesting.
I think it's wrong to build this deck just to combat RG Tron. That deck is maybe 5% of the meta. In fact, Raise the Alarm is arguably better than Smuggler's Copter as a threat. You're dealing 2 damage even without anthems (not far from 3), you don't have to crew it, it's instant speed, and it's much better when you combine it with anthems. Spectral Procession is one of the best cards against combo.
Also the curve is way too high to justify 9 four-drops in the deck, especially when you combine it with 4 ghost quarters which puts you back a land.
It's a very bad card. It's nice that you can play it turn 1 but it basically makes spot removal effective against us. What kills it from being good is the constant equip cost. Turn 1-6 you really have don't have the luxury to equip things over and over again. The untap clause is just adding insult to injury.
Most of our cards are mediocre against combo decks but spectral procession provides the fastest clock we have aside from raise the alarm. Midnight Haunting tends to be good against the counterspell decks but right now they're at an all time decline. I agree Timely Reinforcement is pretty good in the meta right now.
agree with Nissa as a must if you want to add green.
When I ran the LotV she did massive work. I'm not sure how she would fair right now though. It'd be interesting to slot four of and see how she runs.
LotV is consistently amazing. I would say she is bad against the mirror and things like Affinity - a good match-up regardless - but everywhere else she is very good. I think if you run regular BW Tokens there is no reason not to run her. She doubles as removal (much needed in this deck) or as hand disruption (necessary against the unfair decks). Her ultimate is relevant maybe 10-15% of the time but can give you free wins you don't deserve.
You're describing a win-more scenario. If you have both virtue and a bunch of tokens on the field, you don't care about having this equipment on the field.
In particular, splashing red for lightning bolt will not only give you that 3 damage reach but also be far more versatile throughout the game when you need to be defensive. There are also other better 1-mana alternatives.
Okay maybe viable in an aggro oriented GW token build, but for BW tokens, it is obviously not a card we want or need.
If I did run GW tokens, I would run more than 4 Birds of Paradise for mana dorks. If you don't get turn 1 mana ramp, you're essentially playing a bad tokens deck due to lack of interaction. Matt Nass ran 10 mana dorks which seems ridiculous but is a big part of its consistency.
I definitely have to agree with Jongsl5 on this matter, Graft is awful, and even in GW there would be many much better options. If I was going to run any janky equipment I'd run Mask of Memory which I have debated testing before as it helps with stalls and digging through flood.
Second Sram's Expertise is probably good for us but I'm not sure in what number, I could see cutting a couple Spectral for it but it needs testing.
Yup it is about time. The hype is real. Lack of good early black removal was one of the primary reasons I'm using a red splash and now I really have to test the original variant.
Now there is also less incentives that Jund has over Abzan. This is definitely a big impact card on the meta. Poor Infect.
Sram's expertise probably can't make the cut because other 4-drops are more powerful. I could see it in a GW token variant with a lot of 3-mana planeswalkers.
LOL "Poor Infect" indeed, the simple fact that Fatal Push rewards fetchlands is stupidly broken. As for Sram's that pretty much was my exact thoughts, it's not great if you have anything else that costs 4+, you pretty much want it to be the top of the curve, though dropping Souls off it is rather disgusting.
Of course it can't replace Path but it covers all the weaknesses of that card so they have very good synergy. What BW Tokens ALWAYS needed was efficient 1 mana removal that did not ramp your opponent. The difference between a 1 mana removal and a 2 mana one is huge. This thing is basically superior to Terminate/ murderous cut/ Dismember in like 85% of cases.
Unless Eldrazi and Titanshift is a big part of your meta, there is no reason not to,run 4 of these. Add 1-2 two mana removals if you really need to kill more fatties but this deck struggles much more against smaller aggro decks than the midrange ones. Actually against midrange this card hits everything in Jund and Abzan, only missing Gurmag Angler and Tasigur
So you guys advocate running a mere 6 removals total? Are we not playing in the same meta or the same deck? Seriously I am curious what lists you guys are running. Jund runs 12 (16 if you count Liliana of the Veil, which you should) removals to give you bit of a perspective and they run far better defensive creatures.
BW Tokens is literally craving more removals. We run 11-13 threats, 4 anthems, couple planeswalkers, and the rest should be dedicated to lands and control elements. Because we don't stabilize the board quickly, it desperately needs control elements in the form of removals especially in the early game. It's the main reason why Sorin Solemn Visitor is now a staple in this deck because this deck has a tendency to lag behind but Sorin cushions your life total dramatically. I remember the good old days when people doubted how good Sorin was and it only took a few testing to illustrate a flaw in their evaluation.
It doesn't take a genius to realize 4 Fatal Push has to be a staple in this deck. That's like playing Jund with 2 Lightning Bolt.
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Yeah I have to agree with Jongsl5 on this, I'll need to find the space to run a full set but I can't see running less than 3 Fatal Push. This also makes 8 Fetchland minimum necessary I'd say as we will want to make sure that the full effect is reliable.
I just Imagine playing this card and getting a Timely reinforcements with it. Seems cool on paper but I'll need to test it.
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