1.
I totally agree that there are too many janky ideas. It always happens when a new deck gets the spotlight and players go to the forums. Newcomers, sleeve up the deck and test! If you got new ideas, test it up and show your results here. Untested ideas do not contribute much and is against the spirit of the Developing Competitive forum.
In the last page there was a comment about Worldspine Wurm. That was absurd.
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2.
I'm not in the Ashen Rider/Woodfall Primus camp, but you misunderstood their reasons. They are not there for RIP/Cage.
It is to solve the missing Hulk problems. There are 3 main solutions:
A. Dig deeper (Darkblast, Glimpse)
B. Tutors (Gifts Ungiven, Summoner's Pact)
C. Play some creatures similar to Hulk
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3.
A quick search for Leyline of Sanctity on mtgtop8. There're only 3 decks currently playing that sideboard card: Amulet Bloom, Ad Nauseam and Bogles
In all 3 matchups, Mogg Fanatic is not a relevant card (unless Bogles somehow plays Noble Hierarch). Board him out and bring whatever Venser or Thopter Engineer in. If you have the secondary win-con, you don't need Mogg Fanatic.
Rest in Peace: Merfolk, Bogles, Hatebear, UW Control
Venser is in.
Grafdigger's Cage: Abzan, Affinity, Tron (seldom, usually Relic instead)
I suggest playing 1 Hurkyl's Recall in the sideboard as Affinity is very good right now, and it's useful against Infect as well. (they usually play 2 Relics)
There seems to be several discussions going on at once here. Some just keep coming back and I'm not sure why.
1. As outs to leyline - Titan vs Venser vs Thopter vs Other(Cutthroat, etc..):
This topic keeps going on and on because everyone has a different preference but really there is no perfect answer and each one is going to be better in different scenarios. Everyone should just pick their favorite and use it so we can stop arguing over which of these mostly equal options is best.
-Grave Titan is the strongest for a late game alternate win plan but can't win on the same turn so will be worse in some scenarios.
-Venser, Shaper Savant is probably the most generally useful as an anti-hate/counter spell and can be used in the early game but is not great as a beater, can only block once, and still requires Mogg Fanatic to win on the same turn (Without mogg it still is safer than Titan though).
-Thopter Engineer can win by itself on the combo turn, can block twice and is the lower cost than the other two for early game plays but is missing Titans sheer power and Venser's utility. (Can't win on the same turn unless hulk dies during main phase).
-Blood ArtistZulaport Cutthroat and the like are the cheapest manawise, and avoid Torpor Orb effects but provide the least power and utility. (Generally the least popular choice)
2. Problem of not finding hulk consistently enough:
This is another one where there are a bunch of options, whether good or bad. As sjcelvis said, theres no point in wasting time arguing over which is the best as the only true way to be sure is to test them. I think that posting a new idea that has not been suggested is fine but it should be something that solves an actual issue with the deck or that truly improves something in the deck. The current solutions (hope I'm not missing any):
-Self Milling: The idea here is to find a reanimation spell first and then use something like Glimpse The Unthinkable or Breaking / Entering to dig out a hulk into the graveyard. This method supports the instant win, can be pretty fast most likely and is at least somewhat viable. The problems with it are that it worsens the problem of grave hate which is sort of an even bigger issue than finding hulk in the first place. It also has a greater risk of hindering the combo by milling too many viscera seers (Its the only piece that we don't want to many of in the grave).
-Gifts Ungiven: You just use gifts to go find a hulk and put it in the graveyard. This one supports the instant win, is much stronger against grave hate than the self mill, is guaranteed to find hulk, and has some other upsides like possibly finding the reanimation side as well or finding sideboard options. The main downside to this solution is that it is slow and will not really help provide the needed consistency vs some of our worst matchups.
-Summoner's Pact: This one is pretty self explanatory. It straight up find's the hulk like gifts does, it is slightly faster than Gifts. It has two major issues however since the trigger requires green on the following turn and has a strong chance to just lose us the game if the combo does pan out, and it also requires some sort of discard outlet.
-Alternate Reanimation Targets: This attacks the problem from another perspective. It is vastly different from the other options as it accepts the fact that we may not always see hulk in a reasonable amount of time and makes use of the fact that the deck is essentially a reanimation deck. The idea is to include some creatures that work well with the types of reanimation spells used with the combo to either slow the opponent down enough to find the combo or just win on their own. The pro's of this are that it makes some hate less effective that use to absolutely require an answer (Pithing Needle,Surgical Extraction) and can be used just as early as the original combo. The downsides are that making use of the alternatives use up combo pieces and are not guaranteed to win the game.
-Ignore It: The idea here is that while it is a problem, the solutions to the problem dilute the deck more than they are worth, and not having the cards that those slots push out will lose more games than not finding hulk in time would.
3. Darkblast:
I haven't seen anyone come up with any solid downsides to this being in the list. I think it works extremely well in the deck and should probably be an auto included 1 of at least. It can help dig, provides some interaction if needed, and can finish off a mannequined hulk.
1. As outs to leyline - Titan vs Venser vs Thopter vs Other(blood artist, etc..):
This topic keeps going on and on because everyone has a different preference but really there is no perfect answer and each one is going to be better in different scenarios. Everyone should just pick their favorite and use it so we can stop arguing over which of these mostly equal options is best.
-Grave Titan is the strongest for a late game alternate win plan but can't win on the same turn so will be worse in some scenarios.
-Venser, Shaper Savant is probably the most generally useful as an anti-hate/counter spell and can be used in the early game but is not great as a beater, can only block once, and still requires Mogg Fanatic to win on the same turn (Without mogg it still is safer than Titan though).
-Thopter Engineer can win by itself on the combo turn, can block twice and is the lower cost than the other two for early game plays but is missing Titans sheer power and Venser's utility.
-Blood Artist and the like are the cheapest manawise, and avoid Torpor Orb effects but provide the least power and utility. (Generally the least popular choice).
There are some problems here. Yes, Grave Titan cannot win on that given turn and that is a huge downside because the opponent could land Twin or whatever else they need to win. Thopter Engineer actually has the same problem. If it's used with Footsteps of the Goryo, the hasted Thopters will already have passed the combat step. It's all right with Protean Hulk/Mannequin if you can kill it before the combat step. Blood Artist is actually worse than Zulaport Cutthroat because Blood Artist targets. Cutthroat can kill through a Leyline of Sanctity, while Blood Artist can't. Blood Artist is better in other grindy situations since it triggers for the opponent's creatures as well, but that is less important.
It is true that sometimes we can't find Protean Hulk. Grishoalbrand was like this for me as well, although the draw power is worse there, but they can also win with a Breached Wurm. I feel like if you can't find the Hulk with Serum Visions, Faithless Looting, Izzet Charm, and the amazing Taigam's Scheming, then what can you do?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
There are some problems here. Yes, Grave Titan cannot win on that given turn and that is a huge downside because the opponent could land Twin or whatever else they need to win. Thopter Engineer actually has the same problem. If it's used with Footsteps of the Goryo, the hasted Thopters will already have passed the combat step. It's all right with Protean Hulk/Mannequin if you can kill it before the combat step. Blood Artist is actually worse than Zulaport Cutthroat because Blood Artist targets. Cutthroat can kill through a Leyline of Sanctity, while Blood Artist can't. Blood Artist is better in other grindy situations since it triggers for the opponent's creatures as well, but that is less important.
It is true that sometimes we can't find Protean Hulk. Grishoalbrand was like this for me as well, although the draw power is worse there, but they can also win with a Breached Wurm. I feel like if you can't find the Hulk with Serum Visions, Faithless Looting, Izzet Charm, and the amazing Taigam's Scheming, then what can you do?
Ahh you're right I had forgotten about the thopter downside which pretty much eliminates it as an option. I also should have said Cutthroat rather than artist (Corrected). Mostly my point was that of the actual valid options (thopter and blood artist weren't but I had just forgotten as I always used titan or venser and am now testing thragtusk) there is no clear winner and its largely just a preference thing.
As for the hulk issue, its not so much that you can't find hulk as that you can't find him before turn 6+ sometimes which is basically a loss.
Thopter Engineer can still work instantly if you use Mannequin instead of footsteps and target before combat passes. Also, if you DO use footsteps, if you have an Slaughter Pact available or have a seer out, you can still kill that turn. The only way NOT to instant win is if you have a footsteps alone. Even then, unless they have a Pyroclasm / Anger of the Gods that next turn, it doesn't matter if you have 1,000 1/1's or 2/2's. The positives of Engineer over Titan is casting Cost (can be played earlier in the game if need be); CAN kill that same turn, when Titan NEVER can win that turn; and maybe you'll have that 1:1,000 chance that flying will somehow benefit over non-flying... Other than that, I think it's preference.
-Yawg
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I don't really see situations in which anything is preferable to Venser. All of the other options are only an out to leyline? Venser is a mid-combo out that allows you to continue on and win instead of waiting a turn. He's actually castable and relevant in the deck outside of simply removing leyline and is instant speed with a reasonable casting cost. I dont think you should be on the level of hard casting a grave titan and beating down against leyline of sanctity decks, you're not reasonable going to live that long. If the choice of hard casting is between Venser and Titan, I'm gonna choose to have a Venser. Just such a more useful SB slot.
I also personally like Jace > Spirit Guide route. Playing a lot of Painter in Legacy (a deck that can use guide for things other than ramping the combo out a turn faster), I've learned that with fast decks you don't always need to be that much faster. Turn 3 is fine in Modern. What's important in modern is that your deck has the ability to turn 3 but doesn't entirely fold if you can't win on turn 3. The benefit of this deck over other combo decks is that if you ever get to combo, outside of GY hate, which is usually in fairly low numbers, you can't be stopped. You don't always need to go off on turn 3, you just need to find ways to consistently go off between turn 3-6 since once you do you'll win. Modern is about having the option to be fast when you absolutely need to (when someone else is fast as well and hard to interact with) while also being able to hold on. The successful combo decks (twin, bloom, infect) can all win early in hard match ups "stealing" games, but also have a lot of game if they don't. I like Jace for that reason, though maybe SSG isn't the card to cut for him, I'm not sure.
As far as the name's concerned, I tend to hate Bubble Hulk. Not a fan of decks named after random magic teams that most people have never heard of, especially if it isn't instantly a tier one strategy in a relevant format because of them. I'm not sure the alternatives are all that great though.
Round 1 vs. Burn. I went off in game 1 when he did Searing Blaze on my Mannequinned Hulk. I won with lethal on the stack. In the next game, he had a slow hand and I had a turn 3. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Bogles. He got me in game 1 when I couldn't find Protean Hulk. I won game 2 by Pyroclasm on Kor Spiritdancer. This buys me forever as he doesn't have another creature. The same thing happened in the final game, but he was on a mull to 5. I had to flashback Faithless Looting because when I was going to win, I drew Body Double. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Twin. I basically stop Twin a few times, but I never find Protean Hulk and he finds the 3rd Twin. A similar thing happens in the next game after a mull to 5 by me. I can't find Hulk and he drew Kologhan's Command after I had to pay Pact of Negation, discarding Footsteps of the Goryo. He kills me with Bolts and Deceiver Exarchs. 0-2.
2-1.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
A removal spell that can not kill scavenging ooze is not worth a slot anywhere in the 75 imo.
Cast on upkeep, dredge it back and recast after draw step. Obviously not a perfect kill spell but its more about the synergy with makeshift mannequin and its ability dig occasionally dig when needed.
Tested the build I posted early last night. Went 2-2 for the night.
0-2 vs Bloom:
Game one he had the turn 2 hive mind kill. Game 2 I kept a hand with the combo and enough land but did not hit a discard outlet before he turn 4 hive mind killed me again.
2-0 vs 8-Rack:
Game 1, combo'd off pretty early (turn 4-5) after top decking a hulk. Game 2, he mulled down to like 3 and I ended up winning by thragtusk beatdown.
2-1 vs Infect:
Game 1, I think I mulled down pretty low looking for a decent hand and just didn't get any action in time. Game 2, I mulled to like 5 or 6 and then got a turn 2 spellskite down and a fairly early primus and just beatdown for the win. Game 3, I combo'd on turn 3 or 4.
1-2 vs Melira:
Game 1, I kept a hand with a couple slaughter pact, charm, hulk, seer and land and was a turn or so away from comboing when I died. He got a pretty heavy board state going and chorded for an ooze which shut me down. Game 2, he got a slower start on this one and I kept a hand with a hulk, izzet charm, abrupt decay and land after mulling to 6 I believe. I managed to find a mannequin off the top earlier on and used the decay to finish it. Game 3, I had to mull down to 3 because of either no land or just terrible and kept one with Looting, Land, Hulk. It may have gotten there eventually since I just need a reanimation spell but I'll never know since he combo'd me on turn 5 with Anafenza,Seer,Finks,Blood Artist.
I think I had a somewhat unlucky night as far as hands go and I know I made a couple minor mistakes (Round 1 game 2, I should have tried for a primus by end of turn discard earlier instead of wait a bit for loot effects or built up my land count to pay for a pact in lieu of hivemind. Round 4 game 1, I wasted izzet charm trying to kill anafenza only to have him chord in response for ooze which let him bolster her to 3 toughness.) but I don't feel the list was at its best either. The mistakes I made are ones that may have cost me the games I made them in but I also might have lost even had I not made them.
Overall I found that the primus was fairly well and in certain meta's it would be amazing. I think in my local its mostly just average and so I'll probably try Gifts before I settle on a final decision. I think the deck performed decently but no Serum Visions made finding keepable hands more difficult. Thragtusk will probably either be cut entirely or be moved to the board as a 1 of for games where I anticipate a Leyline if I stick with the green splash. I did not get to test out darkblast so I'll probably try it again. I think I liked the green splash for the most part but I'm not completely sold on it yet. I think it holds some good sideboard options vs burn and abrupt decay is pretty versatile but the more I think about it, bounce might be good enough in most of the situations where I would want a permanent destroy effect and in some its possibly even better.
Overall I found that the primus was fairly well and in certain meta's it would be amazing. I think in my local its mostly just average and so I'll probably try Gifts before I settle on a final decision. I think the deck performed decently but no Serum Visions made finding keepable hands more difficult. Thragtusk will probably either be cut entirely or be moved to the board as a 1 of for games where I anticipate a Leyline if I stick with the green splash. I did not get to test out darkblast so I'll probably try it again. I think I liked the green splash for the most part but I'm not completely sold on it yet. I think it holds some good sideboard options vs burn and abrupt decay is pretty versatile but the more I think about it, bounce might be good enough in most of the situations where I would want a permanent destroy effect and in some its possibly even better.
A list would be nice.
Serum visions is especially good in land-light hands with all combo pieces.
As far as the name's concerned, I tend to hate Bubble Hulk. Not a fan of decks named after random magic teams that most people have never heard of, especially if it isn't instantly a tier one strategy in a relevant format because of them. I'm not sure the alternatives are all that great though.
It's called Bubble Hulk because the combo happens when the bubble gets popped. The bubble of course, being Protean Hulk.
After playing it, I think I want to add Serum Visions back in to help smooth out draws. To make room I'll probably shift Thragtusk to the side unless I decide to cut him all together and maybe drop down to 2 primus. I'll also be cutting Aetherling from the board since he can only come in with blue mana up on turn 4 at the earliest.
As far as the name's concerned, I tend to hate Bubble Hulk. Not a fan of decks named after random magic teams that most people have never heard of, especially if it isn't instantly a tier one strategy in a relevant format because of them. I'm not sure the alternatives are all that great though.
It's called Bubble Hulk because the combo happens when the bubble gets popped. The bubble of course, being Protean Hulk.
As far as the name's concerned, I tend to hate Bubble Hulk. Not a fan of decks named after random magic teams that most people have never heard of, especially if it isn't instantly a tier one strategy in a relevant format because of them. I'm not sure the alternatives are all that great though.
It's called Bubble Hulk because the combo happens when the bubble gets popped. The bubble of course, being Protean Hulk.
Either way, all the names for the deck are rather awful.
No one answered my question about why we would play anything instead of Venser in the Leyline slot though.
Some people play titan since he can get past leyline in many games and is better in the late game than venser. Some people play thopter engineer or cutthroat because they can be more useful in the early game. Personally I prefer venser or titan but its all just personal preferences. Each will beat a leyline and each has different strengths and weaknesses. Also I already said all this about 1 page back.
@ C@W_86 I wouldn’t be so critical over Darkblast. It CAN take out a ScOoze if they play one while tapped out, but if you think about it, the only card that really is able to TAKE OUT a ScOoze is Lightning Axe or a Slaughter Pact from the SB. Yes, bounce works, but as far as killing the creature, that’s what we have to work with. Izzet Charm is just as effective at killing ScOoze as Darkblast is. Either they play it while tapped out, or they play it with G open and now both spells are garbage.
Primary Use - Gives a creature -1/-1, or -2/-2 (if played during upkeep & after draw)
Digs 3 deep (Dredge 3)
So, as a 1 copy, I don’t find it bad at all. If you look at a post I wrote, I listed a lot of cards that can be killed off with a single Darkblast. I watched a Grixis Control vs Infect match that was singlehandedly won through a single copy of Darkblast at a recent GP or SCGIQ. The Infect player had to change his entire gameplan based off of one card in the GY.
Comparing the two, Charm has the benefit of drawing into more gas (reanimation spells, Pacts, etc), while looking for a Hulk to pitch. Darkblast only throws into the GY, which is better for finding and dumping Hulk, but worse in finding other cards one might need, like a Footsteps or Mannequin.
Charm and Darkblast both can take out a 2/2. Charm is a one time use, while Darkblast is reusable and can take out multiple targets. Each turn, you can take out X/1 toughness creatures while filling the yard at the same time. Technically you can take out a 2/2 with Darkblast, but it requires more timing and you can’t just dredge back and use like you could against a normal X/1 creature you want dead. But still, it’s reusable, which makes it nice.
So, both Dig, both kill creatures, and both are instant speed. Darkblast is a little narrower, only because its primary function is to kill, rather than dig, but can easily be discarded with a Looting ability and once it is in the GY, can be used primarily to dig for your missing Hulk (if you already have a reanimate in hand). I think that 1 in the main is fine, if not great to have.
@marcc777 - Can you post your current list? You were talking about Thragtusk, Woodfall Primus and Spellskite and was wondering what your current configuration is. Those cards aren’t traditionally in the deck, so seeing the breakdown will be beneficial.
Something random I thought about last night was this: no one has mentioned attacking with Reveillarks at all! Now, we all know the main function of the deck is to combo out and reanimate a Hulk asap for the combo win. Something that’s happened to me in a game, but seems not altogether uncommon to see, is just attacking with Reveillarks. Here’s the game I’m talking about. The guy was playing something in red. Not sure what, because the creatures I saw weren’t traditionally in RDW decks, but the burn was common for the archtype. I couldn’t get to a Hulk fast, but was able to pitch two body doubles in my digging. So 2 Body Doubles and a Viscera Seer in the yard. I was able to hardcast a turn 4 Reveillark off of a Gemstone Mine and pitching a SSG. He attacked, I blocked, killed the Reveillark, brought back a Body Double and Seer, sacked the Body Double, and brought back both Body Doubles as copies of Reveillark. Yes, right here, I can combo out. I can keep sacrificing a Body Double, EOT, to scry 1, Lark trigger brings himself back, and repeat; each time scrying 1 until I leave a Mogg Fanatic on top. I draw, play and sacrifice Fanatic and continue the combo. The opponent, not knowing my combo, conceded on sheer frustration alone, seeing two unkillable 4/3 flyers.
I bring up this scenario because of the Extirpate / Surgical Extraction discussion we’ve had in this thread. The question was brought up, ‘what happens when they extract a Hulk or Mogg Fanatic? How do we win?’ Remember, just like Amulet Bloom and Grishoalbrand decks, they are successful in that they can be scrappy and still pull out a win after the combo fails. We need to remember that having 8 power of flying on the board is nothing to sneeze at, and might win the game through attack steps. The game I illustrated above was an example of this. We do have the means of hardcasting Body Doubles and with Gemstone Mines in the deck (x3 of them), hardcasting Reveillark isn’t out of the question. Sometimes I think we become too focused on one part of the deck: Pitching and reanimating Hulk. Remember that with all the digging and dredging (Darkblast), you can just load up the yard with cards and reanimate a card OTHER than Hulk, either to attack the opponent, or to fire off the combo sans-Hulk.
I only thought about this in response to a lot of you guys saying “I lost, because I was digging and digging and couldn’t find a Hulk.” I thought to myself “With all that digging, they didn’t find Hulk, or Reveillark, or Body Double with something else in the yard?” I understand not finding things fast enough to not die to an opponent’s deck, but I couldn’t help but think, “Where they not seeing other possible outs to the combo, or for a win?” Heck, attacking with 2 4/3 flyers is pretty good, since Delver decks can win off of 1-2 flipped delvers and some backup. 2 4/3 flyers that can’t die without some GY interaction seems better to me, even without delver-style backup.
Anywho, just wanted to participate in the discussion. I missed my local Modern tournament last night, but I might be going to play next week. It’s standard, but I might just go to play some EDH and have some pickup games with this deck. Also, I think I’m going to start really testing hard online with this deck and see how it performs with Gifts and Darkblast. I’ll let you all know results once I get them.
-Yawg
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No one answered my question about why we would play anything instead of Venser in the Leyline slot though.
I have Zulaport Cutthroat in that slot, but have yet to use it since I only suspected one deck of having Leyline of Sanctity, but they didn't have it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I posted my list a couple posts after my breakdown. Surgical is most problematic if they hit hulk, seer, double or lark. Lark beatdown is certainly an option sometimes but it doesnt come up as often as your think since the meta is so fast and you are usually just dead if you don't find the combo by turn 5 or so.
1. You can Footsteps a Reveillark into play if you have Body Double in the yard already.
2. The best Surgical Extraction target is neither Hulk nor Mogg Fanatic. It's Body Double.
The best Pithing Needle target is not Mogg Fanatic. It's Viscera Seer.
3. We have much less angles of attack unlike Amulet Bloom/Grishoalbrand. Amulet can Hive Mind and Grishoalbrand can Breach [card]Worldspine Wurm/card].
4. Miser Summoner's Pact don't make any sense to me the more I think of it. It is only useful when you Pact-Loot-Footsteps in the same turn. In this situation you are wasting the loot. I feel that having 5 vs 4 Hulks does not improve your chances more than just playing 1 more dig spell+utilizing the loot effect.
1. You can Footsteps a Reveillark into play if you have Body Double in the yard already.
2. The best Surgical Extraction target is neither Hulk nor Mogg Fanatic. It's Body Double.
The best Pithing Needle target is not Mogg Fanatic. It's Viscera Seer.
3. We have much less angles of attack unlike Amulet Bloom/Grishoalbrand. Amulet can Hive Mind and Grishoalbrand can Breach [card]Worldspine Wurm/card].
4. Miser Summoner's Pact don't make any sense to me the more I think of it. It is only useful when you Pact-Loot-Footsteps in the same turn. In this situation you are wasting the loot. I feel that having 5 vs 4 Hulks does not improve your chances more than just playing 1 more dig spell+utilizing the loot effect.
1. This is true, but my point was more that a lone lark probably won't win vs most decks. It is possible vs some of course but many will either not care at all (combo,burn, sometimes bogles) and others will just go wide. Against many decks we are already behind by turn 3 or 4. I could work if we have an interaction heavy hand.
2. Well body double or revaillark are probably the two best targets really but after that it would be seer and then body double in that order. Mogg is probably the least concerning.
3. Agreed.
4. Summoner's pact isn't great but Gift's is basically a garunteed slow hulk and probably better than extra dig spells in most cases. Technically it is a dig spell though haha. I also like primus for when your gonna die if you do nothing.
So I love the idea of this deck, I enjoy playing "odd" comboes but there is one thing I am not quite grasping in the below from the OP...
1. Protean Hulk dies, triggering its ability. Search for Viscera Seer, and Body Double. Body Double comes into play as a copy of Protean Hulk.
2. Use Viscera Seer to sacrifice the Body Double(Protean Hulk). Search for Mogg Fanatic, and Reveillark.
3. Sacrifce Mogg Fanatic to deal 1 damage to the opponent. Use Seer to sacrifice Reveillark to bring back Mogg Fanatic, and Body Double. Body Double comes into play as a copy of Reveillark.
4. Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic to deal 1 damage to the opponent. Use Seer to sacrifice Body Double(Reveillark) to bring back Mogg Fanatic and Reveillark.
5. Repeat steps 3 & 4 for infinite damage.
Step 4 seems to indicate that I sacrifice a Body Double (which is an Ark) to return Mogg and Ark.. How can it return Ark?
Am I just being thick haha, could someone just double confirm the loop for me as for some reason I am being a bit derpy!
He meant return body double as Lark
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I totally agree that there are too many janky ideas. It always happens when a new deck gets the spotlight and players go to the forums. Newcomers, sleeve up the deck and test! If you got new ideas, test it up and show your results here. Untested ideas do not contribute much and is against the spirit of the Developing Competitive forum.
In the last page there was a comment about Worldspine Wurm. That was absurd.
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I'm not in the Ashen Rider/Woodfall Primus camp, but you misunderstood their reasons. They are not there for RIP/Cage.
It is to solve the missing Hulk problems. There are 3 main solutions:
A. Dig deeper (Darkblast, Glimpse)
B. Tutors (Gifts Ungiven, Summoner's Pact)
C. Play some creatures similar to Hulk
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3.
A quick search for Leyline of Sanctity on mtgtop8. There're only 3 decks currently playing that sideboard card: Amulet Bloom, Ad Nauseam and Bogles
In all 3 matchups, Mogg Fanatic is not a relevant card (unless Bogles somehow plays Noble Hierarch). Board him out and bring whatever Venser or Thopter Engineer in. If you have the secondary win-con, you don't need Mogg Fanatic.
Rest in Peace: Merfolk, Bogles, Hatebear, UW Control
Venser is in.
Grafdigger's Cage: Abzan, Affinity, Tron (seldom, usually Relic instead)
I suggest playing 1 Hurkyl's Recall in the sideboard as Affinity is very good right now, and it's useful against Infect as well. (they usually play 2 Relics)
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4.
The name of the deck. Does it matter?
(edit: add point 4)
1. As outs to leyline - Titan vs Venser vs Thopter vs Other(Cutthroat, etc..):
This topic keeps going on and on because everyone has a different preference but really there is no perfect answer and each one is going to be better in different scenarios. Everyone should just pick their favorite and use it so we can stop arguing over which of these mostly equal options is best.
-Grave Titan is the strongest for a late game alternate win plan but can't win on the same turn so will be worse in some scenarios.
-Venser, Shaper Savant is probably the most generally useful as an anti-hate/counter spell and can be used in the early game but is not great as a beater, can only block once, and still requires Mogg Fanatic to win on the same turn (Without mogg it still is safer than Titan though).
-Thopter Engineer can win by itself on the combo turn, can block twice and is the lower cost than the other two for early game plays but is missing Titans sheer power and Venser's utility. (Can't win on the same turn unless hulk dies during main phase).
-
Blood ArtistZulaport Cutthroat and the like are the cheapest manawise, and avoid Torpor Orb effects but provide the least power and utility. (Generally the least popular choice)2. Problem of not finding hulk consistently enough:
This is another one where there are a bunch of options, whether good or bad. As sjcelvis said, theres no point in wasting time arguing over which is the best as the only true way to be sure is to test them. I think that posting a new idea that has not been suggested is fine but it should be something that solves an actual issue with the deck or that truly improves something in the deck. The current solutions (hope I'm not missing any):
-Self Milling: The idea here is to find a reanimation spell first and then use something like Glimpse The Unthinkable or Breaking / Entering to dig out a hulk into the graveyard. This method supports the instant win, can be pretty fast most likely and is at least somewhat viable. The problems with it are that it worsens the problem of grave hate which is sort of an even bigger issue than finding hulk in the first place. It also has a greater risk of hindering the combo by milling too many viscera seers (Its the only piece that we don't want to many of in the grave).
-Gifts Ungiven: You just use gifts to go find a hulk and put it in the graveyard. This one supports the instant win, is much stronger against grave hate than the self mill, is guaranteed to find hulk, and has some other upsides like possibly finding the reanimation side as well or finding sideboard options. The main downside to this solution is that it is slow and will not really help provide the needed consistency vs some of our worst matchups.
-Summoner's Pact: This one is pretty self explanatory. It straight up find's the hulk like gifts does, it is slightly faster than Gifts. It has two major issues however since the trigger requires green on the following turn and has a strong chance to just lose us the game if the combo does pan out, and it also requires some sort of discard outlet.
-Alternate Reanimation Targets: This attacks the problem from another perspective. It is vastly different from the other options as it accepts the fact that we may not always see hulk in a reasonable amount of time and makes use of the fact that the deck is essentially a reanimation deck. The idea is to include some creatures that work well with the types of reanimation spells used with the combo to either slow the opponent down enough to find the combo or just win on their own. The pro's of this are that it makes some hate less effective that use to absolutely require an answer (Pithing Needle,Surgical Extraction) and can be used just as early as the original combo. The downsides are that making use of the alternatives use up combo pieces and are not guaranteed to win the game.
-Ignore It: The idea here is that while it is a problem, the solutions to the problem dilute the deck more than they are worth, and not having the cards that those slots push out will lose more games than not finding hulk in time would.
3. Darkblast:
I haven't seen anyone come up with any solid downsides to this being in the list. I think it works extremely well in the deck and should probably be an auto included 1 of at least. It can help dig, provides some interaction if needed, and can finish off a mannequined hulk.
There are some problems here. Yes, Grave Titan cannot win on that given turn and that is a huge downside because the opponent could land Twin or whatever else they need to win. Thopter Engineer actually has the same problem. If it's used with Footsteps of the Goryo, the hasted Thopters will already have passed the combat step. It's all right with Protean Hulk/Mannequin if you can kill it before the combat step. Blood Artist is actually worse than Zulaport Cutthroat because Blood Artist targets. Cutthroat can kill through a Leyline of Sanctity, while Blood Artist can't. Blood Artist is better in other grindy situations since it triggers for the opponent's creatures as well, but that is less important.
It is true that sometimes we can't find Protean Hulk. Grishoalbrand was like this for me as well, although the draw power is worse there, but they can also win with a Breached Wurm. I feel like if you can't find the Hulk with Serum Visions, Faithless Looting, Izzet Charm, and the amazing Taigam's Scheming, then what can you do?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Ahh you're right I had forgotten about the thopter downside which pretty much eliminates it as an option. I also should have said Cutthroat rather than artist (Corrected). Mostly my point was that of the actual valid options (thopter and blood artist weren't but I had just forgotten as I always used titan or venser and am now testing thragtusk) there is no clear winner and its largely just a preference thing.
As for the hulk issue, its not so much that you can't find hulk as that you can't find him before turn 6+ sometimes which is basically a loss.
-Yawg
The downside of Darkblast is, of course, it doesn't kill enough things. Also dredge costs you a card.
I also personally like Jace > Spirit Guide route. Playing a lot of Painter in Legacy (a deck that can use guide for things other than ramping the combo out a turn faster), I've learned that with fast decks you don't always need to be that much faster. Turn 3 is fine in Modern. What's important in modern is that your deck has the ability to turn 3 but doesn't entirely fold if you can't win on turn 3. The benefit of this deck over other combo decks is that if you ever get to combo, outside of GY hate, which is usually in fairly low numbers, you can't be stopped. You don't always need to go off on turn 3, you just need to find ways to consistently go off between turn 3-6 since once you do you'll win. Modern is about having the option to be fast when you absolutely need to (when someone else is fast as well and hard to interact with) while also being able to hold on. The successful combo decks (twin, bloom, infect) can all win early in hard match ups "stealing" games, but also have a lot of game if they don't. I like Jace for that reason, though maybe SSG isn't the card to cut for him, I'm not sure.
As far as the name's concerned, I tend to hate Bubble Hulk. Not a fan of decks named after random magic teams that most people have never heard of, especially if it isn't instantly a tier one strategy in a relevant format because of them. I'm not sure the alternatives are all that great though.
Round 1 vs. Burn. I went off in game 1 when he did Searing Blaze on my Mannequinned Hulk. I won with lethal on the stack. In the next game, he had a slow hand and I had a turn 3. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Bogles. He got me in game 1 when I couldn't find Protean Hulk. I won game 2 by Pyroclasm on Kor Spiritdancer. This buys me forever as he doesn't have another creature. The same thing happened in the final game, but he was on a mull to 5. I had to flashback Faithless Looting because when I was going to win, I drew Body Double. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Twin. I basically stop Twin a few times, but I never find Protean Hulk and he finds the 3rd Twin. A similar thing happens in the next game after a mull to 5 by me. I can't find Hulk and he drew Kologhan's Command after I had to pay Pact of Negation, discarding Footsteps of the Goryo. He kills me with Bolts and Deceiver Exarchs. 0-2.
2-1.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Cast on upkeep, dredge it back and recast after draw step. Obviously not a perfect kill spell but its more about the synergy with makeshift mannequin and its ability dig occasionally dig when needed.
Tested the build I posted early last night. Went 2-2 for the night.
0-2 vs Bloom:
Game one he had the turn 2 hive mind kill. Game 2 I kept a hand with the combo and enough land but did not hit a discard outlet before he turn 4 hive mind killed me again.
2-0 vs 8-Rack:
Game 1, combo'd off pretty early (turn 4-5) after top decking a hulk. Game 2, he mulled down to like 3 and I ended up winning by thragtusk beatdown.
2-1 vs Infect:
Game 1, I think I mulled down pretty low looking for a decent hand and just didn't get any action in time. Game 2, I mulled to like 5 or 6 and then got a turn 2 spellskite down and a fairly early primus and just beatdown for the win. Game 3, I combo'd on turn 3 or 4.
1-2 vs Melira:
Game 1, I kept a hand with a couple slaughter pact, charm, hulk, seer and land and was a turn or so away from comboing when I died. He got a pretty heavy board state going and chorded for an ooze which shut me down. Game 2, he got a slower start on this one and I kept a hand with a hulk, izzet charm, abrupt decay and land after mulling to 6 I believe. I managed to find a mannequin off the top earlier on and used the decay to finish it. Game 3, I had to mull down to 3 because of either no land or just terrible and kept one with Looting, Land, Hulk. It may have gotten there eventually since I just need a reanimation spell but I'll never know since he combo'd me on turn 5 with Anafenza,Seer,Finks,Blood Artist.
I think I had a somewhat unlucky night as far as hands go and I know I made a couple minor mistakes (Round 1 game 2, I should have tried for a primus by end of turn discard earlier instead of wait a bit for loot effects or built up my land count to pay for a pact in lieu of hivemind. Round 4 game 1, I wasted izzet charm trying to kill anafenza only to have him chord in response for ooze which let him bolster her to 3 toughness.) but I don't feel the list was at its best either. The mistakes I made are ones that may have cost me the games I made them in but I also might have lost even had I not made them.
Overall I found that the primus was fairly well and in certain meta's it would be amazing. I think in my local its mostly just average and so I'll probably try Gifts before I settle on a final decision. I think the deck performed decently but no Serum Visions made finding keepable hands more difficult. Thragtusk will probably either be cut entirely or be moved to the board as a 1 of for games where I anticipate a Leyline if I stick with the green splash. I did not get to test out darkblast so I'll probably try it again. I think I liked the green splash for the most part but I'm not completely sold on it yet. I think it holds some good sideboard options vs burn and abrupt decay is pretty versatile but the more I think about it, bounce might be good enough in most of the situations where I would want a permanent destroy effect and in some its possibly even better.
Serum visions is especially good in land-light hands with all combo pieces.
It's called Bubble Hulk because the combo happens when the bubble gets popped. The bubble of course, being Protean Hulk.
It refers to Hulk Combo using Footsteps of the Goryo, and/ or Through the Breach, as pioneered in back in Extended.
It was basically the same list I posted a couple pages back but with a few sideboard changes.
4 Protean Hulk
3 Woodfall Primus
3 Body Double
3 Viscera Seer
2 Thragtusk
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Reveillark
Interaction/Dig(18):
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Darkblast
2 Pact of Negation
4 Izzet Charm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Taigam's Scheming
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
3 Makeshift Mannequin
Land(18):
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Ætherling
2 Spellskite
3 Swan Song
2 Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Pithing Needle
After playing it, I think I want to add Serum Visions back in to help smooth out draws. To make room I'll probably shift Thragtusk to the side unless I decide to cut him all together and maybe drop down to 2 primus. I'll also be cutting Aetherling from the board since he can only come in with blue mana up on turn 4 at the earliest.
I mean, convenient I suppose but:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=7953.
Either way, all the names for the deck are rather awful.
No one answered my question about why we would play anything instead of Venser in the Leyline slot though.
Some people play titan since he can get past leyline in many games and is better in the late game than venser. Some people play thopter engineer or cutthroat because they can be more useful in the early game. Personally I prefer venser or titan but its all just personal preferences. Each will beat a leyline and each has different strengths and weaknesses. Also I already said all this about 1 page back.
Darkblast
So, as a 1 copy, I don’t find it bad at all. If you look at a post I wrote, I listed a lot of cards that can be killed off with a single Darkblast. I watched a Grixis Control vs Infect match that was singlehandedly won through a single copy of Darkblast at a recent GP or SCGIQ. The Infect player had to change his entire gameplan based off of one card in the GY.
Comparing the two, Charm has the benefit of drawing into more gas (reanimation spells, Pacts, etc), while looking for a Hulk to pitch. Darkblast only throws into the GY, which is better for finding and dumping Hulk, but worse in finding other cards one might need, like a Footsteps or Mannequin.
Charm and Darkblast both can take out a 2/2. Charm is a one time use, while Darkblast is reusable and can take out multiple targets. Each turn, you can take out X/1 toughness creatures while filling the yard at the same time. Technically you can take out a 2/2 with Darkblast, but it requires more timing and you can’t just dredge back and use like you could against a normal X/1 creature you want dead. But still, it’s reusable, which makes it nice.
So, both Dig, both kill creatures, and both are instant speed. Darkblast is a little narrower, only because its primary function is to kill, rather than dig, but can easily be discarded with a Looting ability and once it is in the GY, can be used primarily to dig for your missing Hulk (if you already have a reanimate in hand). I think that 1 in the main is fine, if not great to have.
Something random I thought about last night was this: no one has mentioned attacking with Reveillarks at all! Now, we all know the main function of the deck is to combo out and reanimate a Hulk asap for the combo win. Something that’s happened to me in a game, but seems not altogether uncommon to see, is just attacking with Reveillarks. Here’s the game I’m talking about. The guy was playing something in red. Not sure what, because the creatures I saw weren’t traditionally in RDW decks, but the burn was common for the archtype. I couldn’t get to a Hulk fast, but was able to pitch two body doubles in my digging. So 2 Body Doubles and a Viscera Seer in the yard. I was able to hardcast a turn 4 Reveillark off of a Gemstone Mine and pitching a SSG. He attacked, I blocked, killed the Reveillark, brought back a Body Double and Seer, sacked the Body Double, and brought back both Body Doubles as copies of Reveillark. Yes, right here, I can combo out. I can keep sacrificing a Body Double, EOT, to scry 1, Lark trigger brings himself back, and repeat; each time scrying 1 until I leave a Mogg Fanatic on top. I draw, play and sacrifice Fanatic and continue the combo. The opponent, not knowing my combo, conceded on sheer frustration alone, seeing two unkillable 4/3 flyers.
I bring up this scenario because of the Extirpate / Surgical Extraction discussion we’ve had in this thread. The question was brought up, ‘what happens when they extract a Hulk or Mogg Fanatic? How do we win?’ Remember, just like Amulet Bloom and Grishoalbrand decks, they are successful in that they can be scrappy and still pull out a win after the combo fails. We need to remember that having 8 power of flying on the board is nothing to sneeze at, and might win the game through attack steps. The game I illustrated above was an example of this. We do have the means of hardcasting Body Doubles and with Gemstone Mines in the deck (x3 of them), hardcasting Reveillark isn’t out of the question. Sometimes I think we become too focused on one part of the deck: Pitching and reanimating Hulk. Remember that with all the digging and dredging (Darkblast), you can just load up the yard with cards and reanimate a card OTHER than Hulk, either to attack the opponent, or to fire off the combo sans-Hulk.
I only thought about this in response to a lot of you guys saying “I lost, because I was digging and digging and couldn’t find a Hulk.” I thought to myself “With all that digging, they didn’t find Hulk, or Reveillark, or Body Double with something else in the yard?” I understand not finding things fast enough to not die to an opponent’s deck, but I couldn’t help but think, “Where they not seeing other possible outs to the combo, or for a win?” Heck, attacking with 2 4/3 flyers is pretty good, since Delver decks can win off of 1-2 flipped delvers and some backup. 2 4/3 flyers that can’t die without some GY interaction seems better to me, even without delver-style backup.
Anywho, just wanted to participate in the discussion. I missed my local Modern tournament last night, but I might be going to play next week. It’s standard, but I might just go to play some EDH and have some pickup games with this deck. Also, I think I’m going to start really testing hard online with this deck and see how it performs with Gifts and Darkblast. I’ll let you all know results once I get them.
-Yawg
I have Zulaport Cutthroat in that slot, but have yet to use it since I only suspected one deck of having Leyline of Sanctity, but they didn't have it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)2. The best Surgical Extraction target is neither Hulk nor Mogg Fanatic. It's Body Double.
The best Pithing Needle target is not Mogg Fanatic. It's Viscera Seer.
3. We have much less angles of attack unlike Amulet Bloom/Grishoalbrand. Amulet can Hive Mind and Grishoalbrand can Breach [card]Worldspine Wurm/card].
4. Miser Summoner's Pact don't make any sense to me the more I think of it. It is only useful when you Pact-Loot-Footsteps in the same turn. In this situation you are wasting the loot. I feel that having 5 vs 4 Hulks does not improve your chances more than just playing 1 more dig spell+utilizing the loot effect.
1. This is true, but my point was more that a lone lark probably won't win vs most decks. It is possible vs some of course but many will either not care at all (combo,burn, sometimes bogles) and others will just go wide. Against many decks we are already behind by turn 3 or 4. I could work if we have an interaction heavy hand.
2. Well body double or revaillark are probably the two best targets really but after that it would be seer and then body double in that order. Mogg is probably the least concerning.
3. Agreed.
4. Summoner's pact isn't great but Gift's is basically a garunteed slow hulk and probably better than extra dig spells in most cases. Technically it is a dig spell though haha. I also like primus for when your gonna die if you do nothing.
He meant return body double as Lark