One of the benefits that Dredgevine has over your convential Dredge deck in my opinion is that against graveyard hate we have the option to just play the deck as a sub-par aggro deck.
If you look at the Tier 1 Dredge lists, the way their deck is constructed, in a lot of scenarios they NEED their Abrupt Decay for RiP or they just lose. Where as we can just cast our Gravecrawlers and Vengevines and punch our opponent's teeth in.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
That surprises me, because I feel this is the most we've ever been in agreement about the deck. We're currently at a point where we have less than 4 flexspots and basically only disagree on what and how much to cut for Cathartic Reunion. Obviously, I'd recommend my list, but as long as you run 4 Vengevine, 4 Gravecrawler, 4 Bloodghast, 4 Prized Amalgam, one or two Haunted Dead, 4 Insolent Neonate, 3 or 4 Lotleth Troll, between 6 and 9 dredgers, 4 Faithless Looting, 3 or 4 Cathartic Reunion, and around 20 lands, you're good to go.
Ok, great.
I just scrolled over and therefore were missing the main points.
Is it possible to run the Version with Birds of Paradise and Varolz, or is this strictly worse than the common Build?
3 cleaves, 1 gorge seems right to me. Red is pretty important for t1 looting and neonates, but now even more important for t2 reunion. I don't think I'd cut it for the bg fastland, but I haven't tested so it's always up in the air
The problem of this deck is postside, we have 15 cards.Instead of find a way to fight with the hate, can we find a win condition not grave-dipendent?
I am actually able to win through hate pretty frequently (at least before I changed my deck). Often times people open with graveyard hate and feel safe but if you play aggro when they expected you to play dredge you can smash their face in. This usually won't work against other aggro decks but slower decks with few creatures to block get destroyed by it. We usually have too many creatures for them to deal with, especially if their using a spellbomb or relic because its a one shot use and then we get to access our graveyard again.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
I think there are a couple of changes that could be made, but overall I am happy with it so far. Juse this afternoon I had a crazy turn 2 that ended with me having a gravecrawler, a Hooting Mandrills, 2 Vengevines and a bloodghast on the table.
I'm considering the following changes so far though:
1. I would switch the Breeding Pool for a Steam Vents if I had one.
2a. I would consider replacing the two Hooting Mandrills for Golgari Grave Troll if I had them as well. The Mandrills have been great and very explosive so far, but I could use a bit more dredge power sometimes to be more consistent. It's a trade off either way really, but both are good.
2b. I would also like to try switching Hooting Mandrills for 1 Golgari Grave Troll and one more Gurmag Angler. the extra power and toughness stand up to Tassigur better and it's a zombie to boot. costs one more though, which results in needing to exile a recurring creature to pay for it occasionally and that's no fun.
2c. I would try replacing Hooting Mandrills with Tassigur. The one extra toughness is great and the ability may (rarely) be relevant. It also costs the same as Mandrills which is awesome, but losing out on trample is unfortunate. I think Mandrills can push more damage through early game because of that. Again, another trade off.
That's pretty much it at the moment. Just a couple of mall adjustments to be made I think... and a sideboard.
Vengeful Pharaoh has been awesome so far as well btw. It's a wonderful deterrent against decks that attack only with one or two key creatures because they can't do anything about it game 1 at least. It's also easy to get back in the grave if it activates. If not I have also won by hard casting it before, because it's a zombie to boot!
Wow. So looks like everyone is grabbing the pitchforks over on the ban thread. Im thinking what is the best case scenario if there is a ban? Personally i thought grave-troll because it hurts us the least and it will slow dredge just enough to taper it off. This also would have less people play graveyard hate and help us move up a bit. Worst case scenario I think would be bloodghast. He is probably one of the most valuable cards to us right now because of his ability to recur zombies for free.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
Wow. So looks like everyone is grabbing the pitchforks over on the ban thread. Im thinking what is the best case scenario if there is a ban? Personally i thought grave-troll because it hurts us the least and it will slow dredge just enough to taper it off. This also would have less people play graveyard hate and help us move up a bit. Worst case scenario I think would be bloodghast. He is probably one of the most valuable cards to us right now because of his ability to recur zombies for free.
Aww, man. I just bought an alt art Grave-Troll...
Gameplay-wise, if anything other than the Troll gets banned, I'll probably stop playing the deck for a while. I don't think there's a big incentive to ban anything, though. The Dredge-hype has long passed and the deck's nowhere near as oppressive as other things. If WotC decides to pull another bs-move, banning a deck that's "not fun to play against", besides not performing oppressively well, I'll lose the last bit of faith I have in their competence.
Yeah the ban thread has been pretty childish. Literally calling for an all out ban on dredge because it's too powerful, which is indeed the case when you don't respect it and give your sideboard answers to it. Same thing with affinity, infect, jund, tron and any other good deck. If they ban anything at all I'm going to be very disappointed but if it's bloodghast or amalgam I will be livid. A possible option is reunion because it is basically a summer bloom to graveyard decks but I've never played with it so it wouldn't hurt me all that much.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
Looks pretty much exactly like mine. How do you like the Mountain and Nature's Claim?
The Mountain helps save some life since Reunion came out, so I rely more heavily on red lately. Nature's Claim is a way to deal with the extra GY hate that's been circulating since actual Dredge has been a thing for a few months. I needed a cheap way to do it. Since the format sped up, it's a great way. Notice I don't keep anything over 2 CMC out of the board except for Gnaw to the Bone!
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
The Mountain has met my expectations. It's saved me a lot of life since being more relient on red. I don't foresee the mountain coming out unless a ban happens.
Nature's Claim is in there and has been nice. I don't particularly like the lifegain, but I'm too lazy to try out other 1 CMC graveyard hate removal spells
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Dredgevine just seemed worse than Dredge, but now that GGT is banned, vengevine could still be a viable thing. We still have amalgam, cathartic reunion, and Golgari Thug if we want dredge, or if the dredge mechanic isn't good anymore, we can go back to delve creatures or grisly salvage like the old days.
Dredgevine just seemed worse than Dredge, but now that GGT is banned, vengevine could still be a viable thing. We still have amalgam, cathartic reunion, and Golgari Thug if we want dredge, or if the dredge mechanic isn't good anymore, we can go back to delve creatures or grisly salvage like the old days.
So does Prized Amalgam get played in the Delve creatures and Grisly Salvage deck? Can we be a Collective Brutality and Cathartic Reunion deck?
My mind is reeling from the bans because they hit my two Modern decks and my entire MTG budget for a year+ so if these ideas are bad, please work with me.
Wouldn't Gurmag Angler seem good with Fatal Push in the format? It doesn't get hit by it.
Don't think Prized Amalgam gets played with the delve creatures. It's either all in dredge or go more midrange.
For now, I'll just try replacing the trolls with thugs and see how things go. Insolent Neonate and Cathartic Reunion are still amazing cards for the dredge mechanic.
I don't think Dredgevine needs to worry about Fatal Push in the least, so I don't really think we should necessarily play Gurmag Angler just because he doesn't get hit by Fatal Push.
Prized Amalgam was the payoff card that made Dredge so good and not only is it a payoff card in Dredgevine, it's a zombie and allows Gravecrawler to be cast from the graveyard. If the decision is between Prized Amalgam and Gurmag Angler I lean strongly towards Prized Amalgam.
Like I said a couple of weeks ago, our best (used loosely) case scenario for hand was golgari troll because it almost kills dredge but doesn't hurt us nearly as much. Really hoping we'll see graveyard die out hard with dredge dwindling out. All this being said I found wizards reasoning for banning GGT very converting. They basically said "Dredge is too good and we dont like it." They didn't say golgari grave troll enables dredge too much they ultimately took a shot at the whole dredge mechanic.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
I'll work on one tomorrow. The golgari grave troll ban is also nice in that our second layer of dredgers is now a lot more flexible. You couldn't argue the power.of golargi grave troll but Thug is definitely weaker in our dredge slot and I have way less issue siding one or two copies out when I know die-hard graveyard hate is coming in. As for post-ban lists I'll probably start with 3 thugs and see what I can put in a flex spot. 1. Because I like trying new stuff and there are so many good options. 2. Because I find it hard to justify spending $10 on a uncommon.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
whats your list look now after the banning of GGT?
Do we do a straight swap from GGT to Golgari Thug, or are there others looking back to Grisly Salvage / Satyr Wayfinder, we can swap the slot of Insolent Neonate and GGT for this greencards. Currently Insolent Neonate now can only Dredge 4 or 5 with it and there's also a chance that we dont have anything to dredge.
@killer_manfred
thanks for the feedback, i just realized that smuggler's copter is not a creature so i'll pass on that too.
i'm currently testing a build based on the mtggoldfish link i've posted above, it feels good while goldfishing looking forward to playtest it 2-weeks from now
If you look at the Tier 1 Dredge lists, the way their deck is constructed, in a lot of scenarios they NEED their Abrupt Decay for RiP or they just lose. Where as we can just cast our Gravecrawlers and Vengevines and punch our opponent's teeth in.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Ok, great.
I just scrolled over and therefore were missing the main points.
Is it possible to run the Version with Birds of Paradise and Varolz, or is this strictly worse than the common Build?
Green @ it's best
Modern:RGWNaya BurnRGW|WBGAbzan Angel ChordWBG|WUUW ControlWU|UBUB FaeriesUB
Standard:GWGW HumansGW
Legacy:WBGAbzan MaverickWBG
Commander:WUBRBreya, Etherium ShaperWUBR|GWSelvala, Explorer ReturnedGW
360 Cube:http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/7000
the deck is more of a B/R color, with a very "red" dependent starting hand so i would still stick with cleaves.
I am actually able to win through hate pretty frequently (at least before I changed my deck). Often times people open with graveyard hate and feel safe but if you play aggro when they expected you to play dredge you can smash their face in. This usually won't work against other aggro decks but slower decks with few creatures to block get destroyed by it. We usually have too many creatures for them to deal with, especially if their using a spellbomb or relic because its a one shot use and then we get to access our graveyard again.
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
4 Gravecrawler
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Vengevine
4 Faithless Looting
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
I think there are a couple of changes that could be made, but overall I am happy with it so far. Juse this afternoon I had a crazy turn 2 that ended with me having a gravecrawler, a Hooting Mandrills, 2 Vengevines and a bloodghast on the table.
I'm considering the following changes so far though:
1. I would switch the Breeding Pool for a Steam Vents if I had one.
2a. I would consider replacing the two Hooting Mandrills for Golgari Grave Troll if I had them as well. The Mandrills have been great and very explosive so far, but I could use a bit more dredge power sometimes to be more consistent. It's a trade off either way really, but both are good.
2b. I would also like to try switching Hooting Mandrills for 1 Golgari Grave Troll and one more Gurmag Angler. the extra power and toughness stand up to Tassigur better and it's a zombie to boot. costs one more though, which results in needing to exile a recurring creature to pay for it occasionally and that's no fun.
2c. I would try replacing Hooting Mandrills with Tassigur. The one extra toughness is great and the ability may (rarely) be relevant. It also costs the same as Mandrills which is awesome, but losing out on trample is unfortunate. I think Mandrills can push more damage through early game because of that. Again, another trade off.
That's pretty much it at the moment. Just a couple of mall adjustments to be made I think... and a sideboard.
Vengeful Pharaoh has been awesome so far as well btw. It's a wonderful deterrent against decks that attack only with one or two key creatures because they can't do anything about it game 1 at least. It's also easy to get back in the grave if it activates. If not I have also won by hard casting it before, because it's a zombie to boot!
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
Yeah the ban thread has been pretty childish. Literally calling for an all out ban on dredge because it's too powerful, which is indeed the case when you don't respect it and give your sideboard answers to it. Same thing with affinity, infect, jund, tron and any other good deck. If they ban anything at all I'm going to be very disappointed but if it's bloodghast or amalgam I will be livid. A possible option is reunion because it is basically a summer bloom to graveyard decks but I've never played with it so it wouldn't hurt me all that much.
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Gravecrawler
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Stinkweed Imp
4 Vengevine
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting
1 Life from the Loam
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Nature's Claim
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Spellskite
2 Abrupt Decay
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Nature's Claim is in there and has been nice. I don't particularly like the lifegain, but I'm too lazy to try out other 1 CMC graveyard hate removal spells
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Dredgevine just seemed worse than Dredge, but now that GGT is banned, vengevine could still be a viable thing. We still have amalgam, cathartic reunion, and Golgari Thug if we want dredge, or if the dredge mechanic isn't good anymore, we can go back to delve creatures or grisly salvage like the old days.
Modern:RGWNaya BurnRGW|WBGAbzan Angel ChordWBG|WUUW ControlWU|UBUB FaeriesUB
Standard:GWGW HumansGW
Legacy:WBGAbzan MaverickWBG
Commander:WUBRBreya, Etherium ShaperWUBR|GWSelvala, Explorer ReturnedGW
360 Cube:http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/7000
So does Prized Amalgam get played in the Delve creatures and Grisly Salvage deck? Can we be a Collective Brutality and Cathartic Reunion deck?
My mind is reeling from the bans because they hit my two Modern decks and my entire MTG budget for a year+ so if these ideas are bad, please work with me.
Don't think Prized Amalgam gets played with the delve creatures. It's either all in dredge or go more midrange.
For now, I'll just try replacing the trolls with thugs and see how things go. Insolent Neonate and Cathartic Reunion are still amazing cards for the dredge mechanic.
Modern:RGWNaya BurnRGW|WBGAbzan Angel ChordWBG|WUUW ControlWU|UBUB FaeriesUB
Standard:GWGW HumansGW
Legacy:WBGAbzan MaverickWBG
Commander:WUBRBreya, Etherium ShaperWUBR|GWSelvala, Explorer ReturnedGW
360 Cube:http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/7000
Prized Amalgam was the payoff card that made Dredge so good and not only is it a payoff card in Dredgevine, it's a zombie and allows Gravecrawler to be cast from the graveyard. If the decision is between Prized Amalgam and Gurmag Angler I lean strongly towards Prized Amalgam.
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
whats your list look now after the banning of GGT?
Do we do a straight swap from GGT to Golgari Thug, or are there others looking back to Grisly Salvage / Satyr Wayfinder, we can swap the slot of Insolent Neonate and GGT for this greencards. Currently Insolent Neonate now can only Dredge 4 or 5 with it and there's also a chance that we dont have anything to dredge.
Has anyone here tried this build: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-zombies-27662#paper (*though this seems pre--kaladesh list)
how about adding smuggler's copter? a permanent with a looting effect? and crew our can't block creatures
thanks for the feedback, i just realized that smuggler's copter is not a creature so i'll pass on that too.
i'm currently testing a build based on the mtggoldfish link i've posted above, it feels good while goldfishing looking forward to playtest it 2-weeks from now
Lands (21)
Creatures (27)
x4 Gravecrawler
x4 Cryptbreaker
x4 Bloodghast
x4 Prized Amalgam
x4 Vengevine
x4 Stinkweed Imp
x3 Lotleth Troll
Spells (12)
x4 Faithless Looting
x4 Cathartic Reunion
x2 Lightning Axe
x2 Grisly Salvage -> sideout
*currently on mobile, can't tag the cards*