I Think this is the correct way to go with it. I've been quite consistent on having my library be 30 cards or less by turn 2 with proper mulligans. There are times the deck loses to itself, however it has the ability to kill on turn 4 with little interaction. Of course no list is ever perfect, but so far I think this is on the right track.
In terms of Goblin Lore, It seems essential to the all in dredge combo. The draw 4 on it is nuts in dredge. It's a modern legal Breakthrough and since we are dredge and not another type of combo deck, the random discard 3 doesn't matter at all to us. I would try 4, but at the moment It's hard to find space for it. On the numbers, it often got me between 15-24 cards in the graveyard from the matches I played(note: this is an estimate from the games I played, not a statistic).
I'd like to note that Vengeful Pharaoh has been helping a ton with buying you time. Against aggressive decks, it often is a free kill spell for their creatures that you can keep dredging back. If you ever get both of them going, it's going to be hard for your opponent to keep throwing out creatures at you. I would play 4, but once again, the slots are tight.
Dakmor Salvage has been very helpful in this list, which is why I upped it to three. In terms of the full on combo, you need to have 3 mana two of which is black. Salvage helps you hit your land drop by dredging 3 as well as allowing you to use your mana to cast other spells. I used to play life from the loam to help me get to my third land drop, however it slowed me down, and was not as good as it could be in this list. I have no lands main board that can abuse it, so it's a two mana ramp spell which is pretty mediocre.
I've also noticed that the instant speed ability of Drownyard Temple helps this list fight against random hate you might encounter. It's usually not super relevant, however it has it's advantages. I've dodged thinks like main board wrath effects on my prized amalgams, maelstrom pulse, and things like anger of the gods. The only thing they will have the chance to kill before the end step is bloodghast, which often doesn't matter.
In terms of the sideboard, Gnaw to the Bone, Ancient Grudge, and Thoughtseize are the only ones I've liked. They all have relevance, and I've been pleased with the games I've used them in. The rest of the board is pretty wide open. I'd love to hear suggestions on what to add. Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime are for control decks / blue decks. Against combo they have often felt too slow. Even then, they have not felt as effective as they have in other lists I've used them in. Ghost quarter is for tron, but that seems like an okay match up provided they don't O-stone or relic you. Beast Within is there for random graveyard hate or permanents you want to deal with. I'm not sure if it's good to run, since it gives your opponent a 3/3. I think it's safe to say that the board needs some work, it still is kinda janky in some areas.
In terms of matchups, I think it's pretty similar to those addressed in the primer.
Saturday I played a 10 man tournament, finished 3-1 with the list bellow. This was my second tournament after amalgam release, I'm 6-2 so far.
2-1 against Living end (he only won 1 because I didn't draw any dredge card)
2-0 against Abzan Company
2-0 against Jund (I won the second game on turn 3)
1-2 against Burn (I find this matchup tough)
Another good player to watch if you're interested in various Dredge strategies (not necessarily Dredgevine) is Magus of the Moon: www.twitch.tv/magus_of_the_moon.
Dredgevine is pretty tame in comparison to some of complete Dredge lists, but it's also a lot more resilient to actual graveyard hate as well.
The 5-0 lists are impressive but what troubles me is how these decks are stone-dead to Scavenging Ooze. I know there are very quick lines that the deck can take but having 0 answers for an early ooze in the entire 75 seems crazy to me. Is this a case of we can't beat an ooze so don't worry about it?
The 5-0 lists are impressive but what troubles me is how these decks are stone-dead to Scavenging Ooze. I know there are very quick lines that the deck can take but having 0 answers for an early ooze in the entire 75 seems crazy to me. Is this a case of we can't beat an ooze so don't worry about it?
That is definitely a worry, a fast dredge clock notwithstanding. The only thing I can think of is using Street wraith’s cycling effect to save a dredger like GGT or Stinkweed imp in response to the scooze’s ability. I can’t say how feasible that is though.
Edit: Perhaps sideboard in something like Ultimate price? It would deal with Kalitas too. Again, I don’t know if we can afford to cut anything to make way for those cards.
@ Baorap - keep the lists coming, its a good thing!
@ vollick & Gabriel - those decks aren't stone-cold dead to scavenging ooze. They can amass an army as early as T2, simply by going T1 Loot, discard ghast + amalgam. Add any dredger to that list and it gets better. Opponent playing scooze on 2 then activating three times on 3 is good, but that's a world where you've done nothing more (e.g. activated no more creatures on T3), they have 3 green sources and the named scooze. I've found scooze to be easier to beat now that we go wider.
Having said that, I would want some answers to creatures. Lightning Axe and Murderous Cut both seem better than Ultimate Price, and that's the route i'd take.
Has anyone got a link to the dredge-bridge from below primer? That deck has picked up some traction recently too!
I know there are a lot of lines that this deck can take and having multiple creatures on the board on turn 2 is a good way to beat Scavenging Ooze, but I don't think 5 power in the form of a Bloodghast and an Amalgam is enough to beat a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze.
I just don't understand why the list doesn't involve any Lightning Axes. Lightning Axe is just such a huge tempo play, it likely puts 2 cards in the graveyard that we want in the graveyard all for 1 mana.
Thanks for the link. It is interesting, but… I dunno. It seems kinda… how do I put it? Slow? At least where it concerns the Prized amalgam saccing and triggering.
Plus it feels weird having no ’vines — I like those hasty creatures!
How do you feel about Rotting Rats vs Lotleth Troll? I've found Troll to be immensely powerful in my list when I get him, but it's another card that does nothing in the graveyard.
Troll Pros:
-Discard any number of cards, turn after turn. Pretty important, especially for repeated dredging.
-Grows absolutely huge. Crucial as the one way to go 'tall' alongside all our usual 'wide' cards.
-Regeneration really hurts Jundy type decks, although we already have a hugely good matchup against them.
Cons:
-Does nothing in graveyard
-Two mana that needs two colors (not terrible, but not great)
Rats Pros (I would guess, haven't played with them):
-Hits opponents with the discard
-Has ability in GY and triggers Amalgams
-Way easier cost
Cons:
-Unearth doesn't stick around and isn't casting technically, so no Vines from GY
-Way smaller/less important
Both would enable Gravecrawler. What do people who've played with both say?
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Lotleth Troll has always been a core piece of the deck for me. I've never considered going below 4. It's a zombie who discards our dredge creatures, Vengevine, Bloodghast, and Prized Amalgam for value. He can grow out of bolt range against the red decks. He has regenerate which comes up quite often as well as trample to close games out quickly. Lotleth Troll can also wins games through graveyard hate with a massive trample, regenerating body. Rotting Rats can be a strong piece in the deck for insurance for casting Gravecrawler but it should not come at the cost of Lotleth Trolls in the list. The 1/1 body on Rotting Rats is also very underwhelming. While a strong enabler, I would never consider running a full playset.
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Modern: Bant Company GWU Dredgevine GBR Affinity 0 Grixis Control UBR
How do you feel about Rotting Rats vs Lotleth Troll? I've found Troll to be immensely powerful in my list when I get him, but it's another card that does nothing in the graveyard.
Troll Pros:
-Discard any number of cards, turn after turn. Pretty important, especially for repeated dredging.
-Grows absolutely huge. Crucial as the one way to go 'tall' alongside all our usual 'wide' cards.
-Regeneration really hurts Jundy type decks, although we already have a hugely good matchup against them.
Cons:
-Does nothing in graveyard
-Two mana that needs two colors (not terrible, but not great)
Rats Pros (I would guess, haven't played with them):
-Hits opponents with the discard
-Has ability in GY and triggers Amalgams
-Way easier cost
Cons:
-Unearth doesn't stick around and isn't casting technically, so no Vines from GY
-Way smaller/less important
Both would enable Gravecrawler. What do people who've played with both say?
Going below four is just crazy. End of story. It's the hardest creature to kill in our deck.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
As I agree that Lotleth Troll is pretty key in this deck, it really feels like if you don't have it in the opening hand, you will likely not draw into it because of all the dredging going on. I haven't put the deck together yet and have only watched the handful of streams Travis Woo has posted on his channel and he only draws when there isn't a dredger in the yard or when there are very few cards left in the library. Is this just a bad way of looking at the deck? Maybe I'm totally wrong here but the key cards are most likely coming out of the yard.
for BGx version, you need to have a discard engine and lotleth troll plays that role better than rotting rats, but I do have rotting rats in my list as a 1-of
Been playing Dredgevine for about a year, lurking this thread time and time again. I've always loved the Grisly Salvage + Gurmag Angler + maindeck decays/murderous cuts route, but it looks like the All-In version is too consistent and powerful to pass up now.
One thing I'm noticing from these lists that looks very different is the manabase.
This new manabase with 4 dakmor, 8 fastlands, 4 gemstone mine is entirely different than usual. Has anyone tested it?
I'm seeing a lot of Dakmor Salvage in the lists going 5-0. I've never tried this card myself. What has been everyone's experience with the card for those who have used it before? I guess it works nicely for more all-in dredge style lists. I'm still hesitant to use it as it comes in tapped and only adds B in a low land count deck that is really colour hungry.
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I'm seeing a lot of Dakmor Salvage in the lists going 5-0. I've never tried this card myself. What has been everyone's experience with the card for those who have used it before? I guess it works nicely for more all-in dredge style lists. I'm still hesitant to use it as it comes in tapped and only adds B in a low land count deck that is really colour hungry.
It's very good if you are in the all in dredge list. I've had the most experience using it there, and it's great. It lets you get to three mana and allows you to keep one land hands and be okay. I've had games where I keep a one lander, play an insolent neonate, dredge 6, then hit a dakmor salvage and dredge it back on my draw step followed up by a faithless looting or something. If you are on the bloodghast version, being able to trigger landfall easily with it helps a ton.
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4 Vengevine
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Gravecrawler
3 Bloodghast
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
Dredgers [11]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 (I have 3 salvage in the land base)
Engine Pieces [14]
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless looting
3 Tormenting Voice
3 Goblin Lore
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Drownyard Temple
1 Mountain
3 Dakmor Salvage
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
2 Raven's Crime
2 Beast Within
2 Ghost Quarter
I Think this is the correct way to go with it. I've been quite consistent on having my library be 30 cards or less by turn 2 with proper mulligans. There are times the deck loses to itself, however it has the ability to kill on turn 4 with little interaction. Of course no list is ever perfect, but so far I think this is on the right track.
In terms of Goblin Lore, It seems essential to the all in dredge combo. The draw 4 on it is nuts in dredge. It's a modern legal Breakthrough and since we are dredge and not another type of combo deck, the random discard 3 doesn't matter at all to us. I would try 4, but at the moment It's hard to find space for it. On the numbers, it often got me between 15-24 cards in the graveyard from the matches I played(note: this is an estimate from the games I played, not a statistic).
I'd like to note that Vengeful Pharaoh has been helping a ton with buying you time. Against aggressive decks, it often is a free kill spell for their creatures that you can keep dredging back. If you ever get both of them going, it's going to be hard for your opponent to keep throwing out creatures at you. I would play 4, but once again, the slots are tight.
Dakmor Salvage has been very helpful in this list, which is why I upped it to three. In terms of the full on combo, you need to have 3 mana two of which is black. Salvage helps you hit your land drop by dredging 3 as well as allowing you to use your mana to cast other spells. I used to play life from the loam to help me get to my third land drop, however it slowed me down, and was not as good as it could be in this list. I have no lands main board that can abuse it, so it's a two mana ramp spell which is pretty mediocre.
I've also noticed that the instant speed ability of Drownyard Temple helps this list fight against random hate you might encounter. It's usually not super relevant, however it has it's advantages. I've dodged thinks like main board wrath effects on my prized amalgams, maelstrom pulse, and things like anger of the gods. The only thing they will have the chance to kill before the end step is bloodghast, which often doesn't matter.
In terms of the sideboard, Gnaw to the Bone, Ancient Grudge, and Thoughtseize are the only ones I've liked. They all have relevance, and I've been pleased with the games I've used them in. The rest of the board is pretty wide open. I'd love to hear suggestions on what to add. Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime are for control decks / blue decks. Against combo they have often felt too slow. Even then, they have not felt as effective as they have in other lists I've used them in. Ghost quarter is for tron, but that seems like an okay match up provided they don't O-stone or relic you. Beast Within is there for random graveyard hate or permanents you want to deal with. I'm not sure if it's good to run, since it gives your opponent a 3/3. I think it's safe to say that the board needs some work, it still is kinda janky in some areas.
In terms of matchups, I think it's pretty similar to those addressed in the primer.
EDIT: some typo's
I don't know if this goes here but... what do you think?
2-1 against Living end (he only won 1 because I didn't draw any dredge card)
2-0 against Abzan Company
2-0 against Jund (I won the second game on turn 3)
1-2 against Burn (I find this matchup tough)
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
2 Swamp
Creatures
4 Gravecrawler
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Vengevine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
2 Life from the Loam
1 Conflagrate
1 Darkblast
2 Tormenting Voice
3 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
1 Murderous Cut
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Abrupt Decay
Dredgevine is pretty tame in comparison to some of complete Dredge lists, but it's also a lot more resilient to actual graveyard hate as well.
Also, buy your cards before the price increase...
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/413288#paper
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/413181#paper
http://www.wizardryfoundry.com
Current Deck:
Edit: Perhaps sideboard in something like Ultimate price? It would deal with Kalitas too. Again, I don’t know if we can afford to cut anything to make way for those cards.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I know there are a lot of lines that this deck can take and having multiple creatures on the board on turn 2 is a good way to beat Scavenging Ooze, but I don't think 5 power in the form of a Bloodghast and an Amalgam is enough to beat a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze.
I just don't understand why the list doesn't involve any Lightning Axes. Lightning Axe is just such a huge tempo play, it likely puts 2 cards in the graveyard that we want in the graveyard all for 1 mana.
D’oh! How on earth did I forget about Lightning axe?! 5 damage to creature AND you get to discard a card. Of course. Nice suggestion.
Thanks for the link. It is interesting, but… I dunno. It seems kinda… how do I put it? Slow? At least where it concerns the Prized amalgam saccing and triggering.
Plus it feels weird having no ’vines — I like those hasty creatures!
Troll Pros:
-Discard any number of cards, turn after turn. Pretty important, especially for repeated dredging.
-Grows absolutely huge. Crucial as the one way to go 'tall' alongside all our usual 'wide' cards.
-Regeneration really hurts Jundy type decks, although we already have a hugely good matchup against them.
Cons:
-Does nothing in graveyard
-Two mana that needs two colors (not terrible, but not great)
Rats Pros (I would guess, haven't played with them):
-Hits opponents with the discard
-Has ability in GY and triggers Amalgams
-Way easier cost
Cons:
-Unearth doesn't stick around and isn't casting technically, so no Vines from GY
-Way smaller/less important
Both would enable Gravecrawler. What do people who've played with both say?
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
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Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Been playing Dredgevine for about a year, lurking this thread time and time again. I've always loved the Grisly Salvage + Gurmag Angler + maindeck decays/murderous cuts route, but it looks like the All-In version is too consistent and powerful to pass up now.
One thing I'm noticing from these lists that looks very different is the manabase.
This new manabase with 4 dakmor, 8 fastlands, 4 gemstone mine is entirely different than usual. Has anyone tested it?
Modern:RGWNaya BurnRGW|WBGAbzan Angel ChordWBG|WUUW ControlWU|UBUB FaeriesUB
Standard:GWGW HumansGW
Legacy:WBGAbzan MaverickWBG
Commander:WUBRBreya, Etherium ShaperWUBR|GWSelvala, Explorer ReturnedGW
360 Cube:http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/7000
It's very good if you are in the all in dredge list. I've had the most experience using it there, and it's great. It lets you get to three mana and allows you to keep one land hands and be okay. I've had games where I keep a one lander, play an insolent neonate, dredge 6, then hit a dakmor salvage and dredge it back on my draw step followed up by a faithless looting or something. If you are on the bloodghast version, being able to trigger landfall easily with it helps a ton.