IDK if it's a good idea to play flip jace because he's not as easy to flip, but he has proven his power level. (Just some thought) I'm exited for the future of this deck (maybe after the eldrazi get banned).
Something to note, Bant Company/Knightfall actually have a good match-up against the Eldrazi decks. It may not be terribly one sided, but we're one of the few decks that don't struggle against them.
This might be one of the few decks that can get big enough to block down early enough. But only if e can get a turn one mana dork. We can probably only beat them consistently if there on a slower draw (aka no turn two thought knout seer). But we can board in worship to beat them post board. I don't see this deck being better then eldrazi right now at least. But good point.
We're definitely not a better deck than them in general, but we also definitely aren't a dog to them like nearly every other deck.
Is it just or is Courser of Kruphix looking better and better the more that I think about it. But I'm not seeing it in any lists. Is there a reason why I'm not seeing it in any lists that I'm missing.
Is it just or is Courser of Kruphix looking better and better the more that I think about it. But I'm not seeing it in any lists. Is there a reason why I'm not seeing it in any lists that I'm missing.
I was actually wondering the same thing. I haven't built the deck in paper yet, and I don't own any Coursers in MTGO so I can't test them out, but they do look good in theory.
I've been using two coursers and liking them quite a bit. I haven't had a problem with people not letting me shortcut the combo. The deck overall has had great success.
I used to have more loxodon smiters, but my meta has a lot of combo decks and against them its essentially just a dumb beater. I found myself constantly siding them out. I'd like to fit in at least 1 reflector mage but at this point I'm not sure what to cut.
So I got a hold of some Courser of Kruphix. I've been testing out 3 and so far they seem pretty alright. The random lifegain we get from playing lands really can help make our combo less stressful to pull off. At the same time though, they don't hit for much, and in this modern meta full of big creatures, they don't block particularly well either. I'll be playing with them some more, but for now, I almost feel like I'd rather just have more beaters in those slots.
When the modern meta goes back to being a real meta, Courser of Kruphix could really be worh it. When decks like Jund and Burn exist again, Courser's value will skyrocket. Against Eldrazi? Well, there's not a whole lot of reason to not play Eldrazi anyway.
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Modern: GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy: GWB Maverick
EDH: GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
Courser was one of the best cards in the deck for me and his only bad matchup was twin, really. I played 4 when I was working on this deck. It's very easy to take over a game with multiple coursers--just need a township really.
The problem is playing courser commits you to a midrange strategy not an aggro strategy, so just keep that in mind.
Courser was also fantastic with dromoka's command (since he's great at wrestling with his big fat butt), which is also really solid with all the critters Knightfall plays.
I'm thinking of bringing this deck to the GPT that's gonna be in my town on the 26th. I usually play Naya company but it looks bad in the current meta and i've played some versions of knightfall when BFZ came out so I decided to test with it again. I was thinking to start with Dcoop64's list and tweak that.
What has been your experience in the eldrazi meta? Is reflector mage worth playing instead of geist? Do we want worship or supreme verdict or Elspeth, sun's champion(rip) in the sideboard? I also wouldn't mind finally taking my courser of kruphix out of my binder (used to play it all the time when it was in standard).
Is Tarmogoyf any good right now?
In my current experience:
No to Reflector Mage and Supreme Verdict.
Maybe to Courser of Kruphix and Elspeth.
Yes to Tarmogoyf.
My modern Decks: GBRJundGBR URWJeskai NahiriURW My Legacy Deck: URBGrixis DelverURB My EDH Decks: GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB GRhys, The RedeemedW RWArchangel AvacynRW UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
That's pretty much what I question with a lot of lists around here. I imagine it's budget, because for me personally Tarmogoyf has been nothing but pure value as a beater. It's almost always a 4/5 for 2 for me. This deck just oozes value, so much so that I've actually moved the Knightfall combo to the sideboard entirely and just play a full on value beat down game most of the time. Tarmogoyf is just so good for that plan. I think Bant Company (or Ink Company as I'm calling it, given the red splash for Kessig Wolf Run and Lightning Bolts) could easily be Tier 1 someday. Hell, I've even been stomping Eldrazi decks whenever they don't lead with an Eye and two or more Mimics.
There has been a lot of discussion on Goyf in the deck, and many of us have chosen to not play it on our own, and not due to budget. My original bant lists ran them (pre-coco), but once I shifted to a company oriented build I dropped them in favor of more utility. Personally I believe that a big strength of this deck is that we can go wide with creatures that have decent bodies and a lot of utility. A lot of the time in my deck goyf is "only" a 3/4 and while that is obviously still good value, I have found I would rather be playing Voice of Resurgence, Meddling Mage, Scooze, and Pridemage in my 2-drop slot over goyf as the added utility more than makes up for the loss in creature body. I'm sure in some builds, including goyf is the correct choice, but its not just due to budget that they have been passed up in some builds.
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Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Goyf does not have the benefit of sorceries in this deck. Moreover, Bant versions are eshewing lightning bolt and therefore are not putting instants into the yard either. In bant company decks, it is more common to see a 1/2 or 2/3 goyf until turn 3-5. This is a huge problem as it is just bad in that context. This is not jund where we are answering creatures first then playing threats: we are playing threats and then pushing them through.
Goyf is good if you have bolt in the maindeck, but for Bant + kessig builds you are better off with other 2-drops like voice, scooze and qasali.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I suppose that's perfectly understandable. Goyf has been great for me, but it seems entirely reasonable that others would rather to be doing more than just turning creatures sideways. Hell, as far as utility creatures go, I sometimes want to just run a full 4 Pridemages, just because the match-ups they shine in, they SHINE.
On the topic of beaters though, I grabbed a few Woolly Thoctars and Myr Superions just to screw around with my beater slots. Myr Superion was great out of Collected Company, but even with 7-8 dorks, it was super difficult to consistently hard cast them. As for the Thoctars... I think I'm in love. Seriously, I was not expecting anything real to come out of testing them, but as it turns out, turn 2 Woolly Thoctars are really, really good. If I had a hand with a dork, a Geist, a Knight, a Thoctar, and the rest land, I would honestly go for the Thoctars as soon as possible. It's much harder to block favorably than Geist, and it doesn't have nearly as big of a target on its head as Knight. People just don't seem to know what to do. Even Eldrazi players don't want to attack you through a turn 2 Thoctar.
Currently thoughts are potentially adding a dispel to the board in place of the elspeth. I had both before, but wanted to try the intrepid hero and cut the dispel for it.
It seems to fair okay against the G/x eldrazi decks, but U/W can be difficult. Jund/Abzan really comes down to draws and skill. Affinity comes down to draws somewhat as well, though I think I am pretty well suited to beat it. Tron is a bad matchup, but winnable with a fast clock and minimal interaction from them. I have had success against kiki-chord, but its been a pretty small sample size. Against abzan Coco we have the advantage in beatdown games, but their combo can be problematic, path is strong here, but its easy to just lose to infinite life and damage when we don't have it. U/W control can be alright, voice does a lot of work here, and if I keep up pressure from an early stage with a bit of disruption I can usually win games before they stabilize. Infect can be difficult, especially the unblockable dude, but we have many answers to the inkmoth, and blockers can stall out until they run out of gas. Burn is a bye. Hatebears is a bye. Naya Zoo is close to a mirror type matchup but they are a bit faster and we are a bit more resilient/tempo oriented, I think they have a slight advantage, but its close to even.
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Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
The could very well be included as a 1-2of over some number of either the 3rd pridemage, geists or mindcensors. The inclusion of those cards over the witness for me are hedges against some popular decks in my meta. Mindcensors do very well against any chord decks (abzan coco is big near me), make my GQ's and paths much better and when you start playing them mainboard if becomes really evident how important searching is to a lot of modern decks. Affinity and lantern are also popular which is the reason for my third pridemage. Geist might be the cut if I were to add a couple witness, as I have slowly been cutting him from my original 4, to 3 for a very long time, and now to 2. He struggles in a creature heavy meta, but the value against removal heavy decks and even just the reach that the 4/4 flyer provides over 1-2 hits can be game changing in the good matchups for him.
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Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Been on this deck for about 3 months now. I'm borrowing it indefinitely from a buddy of mine with a much more robust collection than I have. Played mostly at the store level - Modern events on Tuesdays, etc. - as well as playing online with XMage. I'd estimate I've probably played ~250 games with the deck so far. I'm finally feeling pretty confident with the deck, enough to want to offer some insight. In fact, I made a new account to do just that.
Most of these opinions have already been voiced at some point or another, but there are a few things that get rehashed from time to time. I figured I'd give my two cents on some of the popular topics, as well as some of my own observations. Please feel free to weigh in, as none of these points are set in stone (except possibly Goyf).
Goyf - Goyf has been extremely underwhelming for me so far. The times I've dropped it and felt bad about it have far outweighed playing it and feeling justified having it in the deck. The only reason it's in the deck at all is because my buddy put it there, and I haven't gotten around to swapping it out yet.
CoCo - Collected Company has been almost the opposite of Goyf. I came close to leaving it out of the deck entirely. There are some games where I don't see it, but the games where I do, it's almost always worthwhile. The nature of our deck means that leaving 4 mana untapped isn't all that unusual. In my experience, people don't play around Company, even if your mana telegraphs it
EWit - Let me first say that I love Eternal Witness. It is a sweet card with a lot of awesome applications. I play one in my list. It has never paid off for me. Hardcasting it, the targets are usually underwhelming. I still have yet to hit it off CoCo, so do take this point with a grain of salt, however, a card should be able to be cast outright and feel good. If I hit it off CoCo, I'm using it to get CoCo. I could see playing it after CoCo had already been cast, but overall, I haven't been incredibly pleased with this card's performance.
Geist - Geist has been a card of mixed results for me. I love the card, definitely in my top 5 cards of all time. Some games, it definitely packs a punch, and then some. Other times... Not so much. If you aren't landing him on T2 or 3, he's probably not going to pull his weight. If you're lucky enough to have a Kessig or Rogue's Passage live, however, he becomes very good. With all that in mind, Geist definitely makes the cut. The games where he is good, he's incredibly good, enough so to solidify his place in the deck.
Steppe (I ended up writing way more about this card than I thought I would) - So good. Worst case scenario, you're using it to push through a few points of damage. If you're seeing it early, you're doing it wrong. Our deck is not nearly mana-hungry enough to outright crumble over one land coming in tapped. Comboing out and getting your Knight Pathed not only fizzles the combo, it likely leaves you with a sub-optimal land base on board. Furthermore, why are you playing a combo that isn't going to win when it happens? Leaving out Steppe is tantamount to tacking the text "You lose if your opponent has 1 open White mana" onto Retreat. Our deck does not play the long game well enough to wait for an opening to combo consistently enough for that to be the plan. This deck isn't Twin, and I don't think anyone wanting to play a "Twin replacement" would ever look to this deck anyway.
Going forward, I'm thinking of replacing Goyf with Scooze. I haven't tested it yet, and I would love to hear how Scooze has performed for those who play it. I would also like to hear peoples' opinion on the Burn and Affinity matchups. I have yet to win a match against either one, and I believe these are the only 2 archetypes I can say that about. My N-value isn't significantly high, so again, grain of salt. Could be bad luck, but I think that we make our deck a bit slower in order to make it more resilient and hateful, which makes it harder for us to compete against the faster decks, at least pre-board.
Thanks for reading! Looking forward to contributing to this thread.
Been on this deck for about 3 months now. I'm borrowing it indefinitely from a buddy of mine with a much more robust collection than I have. Played mostly at the store level - Modern events on Tuesdays, etc. - as well as playing online with XMage. I'd estimate I've probably played ~250 games with the deck so far. I'm finally feeling pretty confident with the deck, enough to want to offer some insight. In fact, I made a new account to do just that.
Most of these opinions have already been voiced at some point or another, but there are a few things that get rehashed from time to time. I figured I'd give my two cents on some of the popular topics, as well as some of my own observations. Please feel free to weigh in, as none of these points are set in stone (except possibly Goyf).
Goyf - Goyf has been extremely underwhelming for me so far. The times I've dropped it and felt bad about it have far outweighed playing it and feeling justified having it in the deck. The only reason it's in the deck at all is because my buddy put it there, and I haven't gotten around to swapping it out yet.
CoCo - Collected Company has been almost the opposite of Goyf. I came close to leaving it out of the deck entirely. There are some games where I don't see it, but the games where I do, it's almost always worthwhile. The nature of our deck means that leaving 4 mana untapped isn't all that unusual. In my experience, people don't play around Company, even if your mana telegraphs it
EWit - Let me first say that I love Eternal Witness. It is a sweet card with a lot of awesome applications. I play one in my list. It has never paid off for me. Hardcasting it, the targets are usually underwhelming. I still have yet to hit it off CoCo, so do take this point with a grain of salt, however, a card should be able to be cast outright and feel good. If I hit it off CoCo, I'm using it to get CoCo. I could see playing it after CoCo had already been cast, but overall, I haven't been incredibly pleased with this card's performance.
Geist - Geist has been a card of mixed results for me. I love the card, definitely in my top 5 cards of all time. Some games, it definitely packs a punch, and then some. Other times... Not so much. If you aren't landing him on T2 or 3, he's probably not going to pull his weight. If you're lucky enough to have a Kessig or Rogue's Passage live, however, he becomes very good. With all that in mind, Geist definitely makes the cut. The games where he is good, he's incredibly good, enough so to solidify his place in the deck.
Steppe (I ended up writing way more about this card than I thought I would) - So good. Worst case scenario, you're using it to push through a few points of damage. If you're seeing it early, you're doing it wrong. Our deck is not nearly mana-hungry enough to outright crumble over one land coming in tapped. Comboing out and getting your Knight Pathed not only fizzles the combo, it likely leaves you with a sub-optimal land base on board. Furthermore, why are you playing a combo that isn't going to win when it happens? Leaving out Steppe is tantamount to tacking the text "You lose if your opponent has 1 open White mana" onto Retreat. Our deck does not play the long game well enough to wait for an opening to combo consistently enough for that to be the plan. This deck isn't Twin, and I don't think anyone wanting to play a "Twin replacement" would ever look to this deck anyway.
Going forward, I'm thinking of replacing Goyf with Scooze. I haven't tested it yet, and I would love to hear how Scooze has performed for those who play it. I would also like to hear peoples' opinion on the Burn and Affinity matchups. I have yet to win a match against either one, and I believe these are the only 2 archetypes I can say that about. My N-value isn't significantly high, so again, grain of salt. Could be bad luck, but I think that we make our deck a bit slower in order to make it more resilient and hateful, which makes it harder for us to compete against the faster decks, at least pre-board.
Thanks for reading! Looking forward to contributing to this thread.
Would love to see your list. I run two Fink's in the main and three firewalkers in the side for burn, though I usually just out pace them. I also run 3 kataki's and 2 reclamation sages in the side, but I haven't tested against affinity yet. They're mostly for lantern control.
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We're definitely not a better deck than them in general, but we also definitely aren't a dog to them like nearly every other deck.
I was actually wondering the same thing. I haven't built the deck in paper yet, and I don't own any Coursers in MTGO so I can't test them out, but they do look good in theory.
It's really good when we combo off because if for some reason we don't kill them we gained some life from the Courser.
2x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Plains
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Enchantment
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Loxodon Smiter
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Voice of Resurgence
Instant
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
Planeswalker
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Domri Rade
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Kor Firewalker
1x Negate
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Worship
I've been using two coursers and liking them quite a bit. I haven't had a problem with people not letting me shortcut the combo. The deck overall has had great success.
I used to have more loxodon smiters, but my meta has a lot of combo decks and against them its essentially just a dumb beater. I found myself constantly siding them out. I'd like to fit in at least 1 reflector mage but at this point I'm not sure what to cut.
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
The problem is playing courser commits you to a midrange strategy not an aggro strategy, so just keep that in mind.
Courser was also fantastic with dromoka's command (since he's great at wrestling with his big fat butt), which is also really solid with all the critters Knightfall plays.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
In my current experience:
No to Reflector Mage and Supreme Verdict.
Maybe to Courser of Kruphix and Elspeth.
Yes to Tarmogoyf.
GBRJundGBR
URWJeskai NahiriURW
My Legacy Deck:
URBGrixis DelverURB
My EDH Decks:
GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB
GRhys, The RedeemedW
RWArchangel AvacynRW
UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
That's pretty much what I question with a lot of lists around here. I imagine it's budget, because for me personally Tarmogoyf has been nothing but pure value as a beater. It's almost always a 4/5 for 2 for me. This deck just oozes value, so much so that I've actually moved the Knightfall combo to the sideboard entirely and just play a full on value beat down game most of the time. Tarmogoyf is just so good for that plan. I think Bant Company (or Ink Company as I'm calling it, given the red splash for Kessig Wolf Run and Lightning Bolts) could easily be Tier 1 someday. Hell, I've even been stomping Eldrazi decks whenever they don't lead with an Eye and two or more Mimics.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Goyf is good if you have bolt in the maindeck, but for Bant + kessig builds you are better off with other 2-drops like voice, scooze and qasali.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
3x voice of resurgence
3x qasali pridemage
1x scavenging ooze
2x meddling mage
2x phantasmal image
4x knight of the reliquary
2x geist of saint traft
3x reflector mage
2x aven mindcensor
2x kitchen finks
4x path to exile
4x collected company
1x dismember
3x misty rainforest
2x flooded strand
2x temple garden
2x breeding pool
1x hallowed fountain
1x plains
1x forest
1x island
1x horizon canopy
1x moorland haunt
1x stirring wildwood
1x sejiri steppe
2x ghost quarter
2x stony silence
1x reclamation sage
1x negate
2x spellskite
1x intrepid hero
1x ghost quarter
1x scavenging ooze
1x elspeth, knight-errant
1x disdainful stroke
2x engineered explosives
2x dromoka's command
Currently thoughts are potentially adding a dispel to the board in place of the elspeth. I had both before, but wanted to try the intrepid hero and cut the dispel for it.
It seems to fair okay against the G/x eldrazi decks, but U/W can be difficult. Jund/Abzan really comes down to draws and skill. Affinity comes down to draws somewhat as well, though I think I am pretty well suited to beat it. Tron is a bad matchup, but winnable with a fast clock and minimal interaction from them. I have had success against kiki-chord, but its been a pretty small sample size. Against abzan Coco we have the advantage in beatdown games, but their combo can be problematic, path is strong here, but its easy to just lose to infinite life and damage when we don't have it. U/W control can be alright, voice does a lot of work here, and if I keep up pressure from an early stage with a bit of disruption I can usually win games before they stabilize. Infect can be difficult, especially the unblockable dude, but we have many answers to the inkmoth, and blockers can stall out until they run out of gas. Burn is a bye. Hatebears is a bye. Naya Zoo is close to a mirror type matchup but they are a bit faster and we are a bit more resilient/tempo oriented, I think they have a slight advantage, but its close to even.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Been on this deck for about 3 months now. I'm borrowing it indefinitely from a buddy of mine with a much more robust collection than I have. Played mostly at the store level - Modern events on Tuesdays, etc. - as well as playing online with XMage. I'd estimate I've probably played ~250 games with the deck so far. I'm finally feeling pretty confident with the deck, enough to want to offer some insight. In fact, I made a new account to do just that.
Most of these opinions have already been voiced at some point or another, but there are a few things that get rehashed from time to time. I figured I'd give my two cents on some of the popular topics, as well as some of my own observations. Please feel free to weigh in, as none of these points are set in stone (except possibly Goyf).
Going forward, I'm thinking of replacing Goyf with Scooze. I haven't tested it yet, and I would love to hear how Scooze has performed for those who play it. I would also like to hear peoples' opinion on the Burn and Affinity matchups. I have yet to win a match against either one, and I believe these are the only 2 archetypes I can say that about. My N-value isn't significantly high, so again, grain of salt. Could be bad luck, but I think that we make our deck a bit slower in order to make it more resilient and hateful, which makes it harder for us to compete against the faster decks, at least pre-board.
Thanks for reading! Looking forward to contributing to this thread.
Would love to see your list. I run two Fink's in the main and three firewalkers in the side for burn, though I usually just out pace them. I also run 3 kataki's and 2 reclamation sages in the side, but I haven't tested against affinity yet. They're mostly for lantern control.