I've got a small but high prize local tournament coming up in a few weeks (think like Worlds or the SCG PC but on a much smaller local level) and this deck is definitely on my short list of things to play. It does pretty much everything I'm looking to do in the format which is cast efficient 1 mana removal, edicts, slam Geist, play big creatures, threaten combo wins out of nowhere, and offer an above average ability to play some one of's (I very highly value putting the fear of the unknown 1 of into my opponent in these types of events... and word spreads across the room quickly).
In the videos I've watched I like the way the Zoo variant plays, it's aggressive and gets a lot of extra percentage points from unknown information. For example, if your opponent kills the Goyf they have to risk your KotR killing them, but if they don't kill the Goyf it's going to kill them eventually. I like having diverse threats like that.
When I've tried some sample lists online though before making my own I keep running into a problem that I didn't see in the decks video primers. The manabase is simply costing me games. It feels way too fragile as a 4c manabase but I don't see an alternative. If you want to pressure the opponent Nacatl puts you in red which also then lets you pick up Bolt for free, while Geist and the combo put you in blue. I haven't read this entire thread but I've read about the first 10 pages along with the last 30 and I haven't seen any manabase discussion at all other than on Sejiri Steppe and Kessig Wolf Run. It seems like people are just throwing some lands together and calling it done.
So, on that subject what have people thought about the various land counts? Collected Company really wants around 27 creatures and 3 CoCo (more on that below) brings you to 30 cards. 22 lands makes it 52 which leaves 8 other spells. That setup seems to interfere with the combo though. If there's only 8 other spell slots you have to sacrifice either removal or combo potential. Has anyone been able to work in Ghost Quarters or Horizon Canopy? What fetchland balance is optimal? Obviously some green fetches are good because all of the real T1 plays involve green mana but beyond that it becomes more of a question. Is Wooded Foothills really offering anything over Flooded Strand for example? Arid Mesa and Windswept Heath are clearly the best ones because they gets all 4 colors without having to run a Steam Vents, but is it right to be running say 4 Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest? Or even over Scalding Tarn?
Outside of the manabase when I build or tune decks I like figuring out a deck skeleton based on what breakdown for the various slots is optimal. That will take me awhile to decide on for this deck, but in the meantime I have some thoughts on the three drops that might be worth discussing.
With Collected Company, I've seen a lot of lists running 4 but I'm not so sure that's correct. I was playing with a bunch of percentages today in a spreadsheet and basically what I found was that the sweet spot between deck slots invested and consistency was at 3 copies of CoCo attempting to find 2 of's. This invested the minimum number of resources to have a reasonable change of finding the card. It seems to me that a lot of these lists are running more 3 drops than the format really allows you to run, so I think making a few trims here to get a better curve could improve lists as the ~13 3 drops definitely feels like too many.
For example the three/four drops could look like
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Collected Company
That cuts 2 slots without appreciably hurting the chance at a combo, which then frees up two slots further down the curve for either more aggression or protection.
To put this in perspective a 2 of with 3 CoCo's is as consistent as a 3 of without any CoCo and a 3 of with 3 CoCo's is as consistent as a 4 of without any. The pattern holds for 1 of's as well. Basically you can think of 3 CoCo as being worth +1 copy of every other creature in the deck. The 4th CoCo can push that further but because of how math works, the second CoCo has less impact than the first, and the third has less than the second, so really that final copy isn't very good. If people wish, I can post the spreadsheet I built on this stuff later.
I'm currently running 3 coco 2 chord and I'm enjoying it a lot, coco for the surprise blocker and maybe even attacker, or the chord for the combo or toolbox creature.
I've got a small but high prize local tournament coming up in a few weeks (think like Worlds or the SCG PC but on a much smaller local level) and this deck is definitely on my short list of things to play. It does pretty much everything I'm looking to do in the format which is cast efficient 1 mana removal, edicts, slam Geist, play big creatures, threaten combo wins out of nowhere, and offer an above average ability to play some one of's (I very highly value putting the fear of the unknown 1 of into my opponent in these types of events... and word spreads across the room quickly).
In the videos I've watched I like the way the Zoo variant plays, it's aggressive and gets a lot of extra percentage points from unknown information. For example, if your opponent kills the Goyf they have to risk your KotR killing them, but if they don't kill the Goyf it's going to kill them eventually. I like having diverse threats like that.
When I've tried some sample lists online though before making my own I keep running into a problem that I didn't see in the decks video primers. The manabase is simply costing me games. It feels way too fragile as a 4c manabase but I don't see an alternative. If you want to pressure the opponent Nacatl puts you in red which also then lets you pick up Bolt for free, while Geist and the combo put you in blue. I haven't read this entire thread but I've read about the first 10 pages along with the last 30 and I haven't seen any manabase discussion at all other than on Sejiri Steppe and Kessig Wolf Run. It seems like people are just throwing some lands together and calling it done.
So, on that subject what have people thought about the various land counts? Collected Company really wants around 27 creatures and 3 CoCo (more on that below) brings you to 30 cards. 22 lands makes it 52 which leaves 8 other spells. That setup seems to interfere with the combo though. If there's only 8 other spell slots you have to sacrifice either removal or combo potential. Has anyone been able to work in Ghost Quarters or Horizon Canopy? What fetchland balance is optimal? Obviously some green fetches are good because all of the real T1 plays involve green mana but beyond that it becomes more of a question. Is Wooded Foothills really offering anything over Flooded Strand for example? Arid Mesa and Windswept Heath are clearly the best ones because they gets all 4 colors without having to run a Steam Vents, but is it right to be running say 4 Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest? Or even over Scalding Tarn?
Outside of the manabase when I build or tune decks I like figuring out a deck skeleton based on what breakdown for the various slots is optimal. That will take me awhile to decide on for this deck, but in the meantime I have some thoughts on the three drops that might be worth discussing.
With Collected Company, I've seen a lot of lists running 4 but I'm not so sure that's correct. I was playing with a bunch of percentages today in a spreadsheet and basically what I found was that the sweet spot between deck slots invested and consistency was at 3 copies of CoCo attempting to find 2 of's. This invested the minimum number of resources to have a reasonable change of finding the card. It seems to me that a lot of these lists are running more 3 drops than the format really allows you to run, so I think making a few trims here to get a better curve could improve lists as the ~13 3 drops definitely feels like too many.
For example the three/four drops could look like
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Collected Company
That cuts 2 slots without appreciably hurting the chance at a combo, which then frees up two slots further down the curve for either more aggression or protection.
To put this in perspective a 2 of with 3 CoCo's is as consistent as a 3 of without any CoCo and a 3 of with 3 CoCo's is as consistent as a 4 of without any. The pattern holds for 1 of's as well. Basically you can think of 3 CoCo as being worth +1 copy of every other creature in the deck. The 4th CoCo can push that further but because of how math works, the second CoCo has less impact than the first, and the third has less than the second, so really that final copy isn't very good. If people wish, I can post the spreadsheet I built on this stuff later.
On the topic of land, I have played both BANT version and Zoo version.
In BANT version you would want to have around 9 or 10 fetches and you will find it just nice while in zoo you could want as many as 12 fetches to consistently make nacatl a 3/3 on turn 2 if you drop her on turn one. It is also highly recommended from my experience that all fetches to be able at least fetch forest. Zoo compared to BANT are less affected by the life loss from fetches due to the amount of cheap but big threat which usually already drop opponent life too a much lower point before you combo out unlike BANT.
Usually in BANT you would run some number of birds of paradise so the need for red is not that important, a single stomping ground is more than enough to produce the red for wolf run.
Do note that BANT version is less afraid of a turn 3 blood moon compared to zoo as BANT tend to fetches basic for the 1st 3 turns while zoo usually fetches a shock for the 2nd land drop in order to make nacatl 3/3 which sometimes hurt your color to cast stuff you want to cast. And spreading seas hurts zoo more compared to BANT.
Anyway, all these are only my own experience so I'm not saying it's the same for everyone.
I've finally decided to get into modern and with the exception of some Noble Heirarchs I was able to put this deck together with most of my existing collection. I was wondering if I could get just a bit of feedback on my list.
I'll be honest I'm not really a modern player so I'm just trying something cool and seeing what works and doesn't but I liked the idea of a more controlling build with something that can hopefully just randomly combo off. I'm wondering does this list look alright or am I trying to do this with a direction that has been tried and just doesn't work well?
I can get behind running a bit more of a controlling build, though I think there are a few things that you can change for this exact build, and move into a tempo based direction.
You have a lack of 2-drop creatures so I think running a couple more Birds of Paradise might be a good call so that you can maximize your chances at a turn 2 three drop when you need to get aggressive. If you can land a turn 2 geist in a deck like this, you can probably tempo out the opponent with your countermagic and removal (which you might want a bit more of). I can see adding in a couple of Dromoka's Command to the mix here for a couple additional removal spells that have additional utility against red sweepers.
Another thing to note here, is that based on your current card choices you are more of a U/G deck splashing white, where most Bant Knightfall decks are G/W splashing blue. I think that if you want to support your suite of counterspells (especially cryptic), and snapcaster, you might want more blue sources in your land base. Maybe another Breeding Pool over the second Temple Garden, and if you own them a couple more blue fetches over a basic plains and a basic forest.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Game plan is to land a turn 2 threat and either combo on turn 3 or keep them off balance. Elspeth on turn 3 with a turn 2 Geist is pretty brutal. Originally ran 4 Coralhelms and 1 Elspeth, but she over performed and I added a 2nd.
Are there any opinions on the Coco versions sideboard consisting on creatures with an effect versus spells that have the same effect? For instance: pithing needle takes a little more specific removal, but phyrexian revoker can be hit off of collected. There's more than a few examples of this analogy and I tend towards the synergy of hitting answers off a spell you're going to play anyway, but field experience is worth more than theory any day. Thoughts?
Yes, Coco makes sb hatebears much better than spells for the deck since coco gives you many more looks for your SB hatebears. In my build, every single SB card can be hit by Coco for exactly the reason stated. phyrexian revoker is a good SB card - although while it looks good I've never actually used it. I can't figure out which matchups I want it, which do you have in mind?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
liliana and tron P Walkers come immediately to mind. kor firewalker for burn is a gimme, meddling mage is a bit of a hedge against unknown combo decks, reclaimation sage might be a bit slow against affinity, but is good against lantern. Hushwing Gryff is great against tooth and nail decks, also emrakul if timed right.
You might want to consider Kataki, War's Wage over Rec Sage as your anti-affinity sideboard dude. They often have trouble dealing with it if they don't have the galv blast ready.
I have also found that a good hatebear to run in the deck is Aven Mindcensor. I have even started dropping some beefy beaters for it in the mainboard. Works great with mainboard Ghost Quarters and Paths, and it's an answer to scapeshift (which IMO is a pretty bad matchup without them), along with any other decks that like to search their libraries a lot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Forgot about him, thank you. Gaddock teeg would stop the worst of tron until they could find a sweeper, though the recent price spikes have put him off for a while.
Tron:
Aven Mindcensor for maps, sylvan scrying and Eye of Ugin.
Gaddock Teeg for Karn and Ugin
Crumble to Dust for Urza lands
Stony Silence for their O.Stones, Maps, Relics and eggs
Burrenton Forge-Tender is fine against pyroclasm (if you're planning to run them anyways against burn)
Bx eldrazi is a deck I have yet not played against, so I can't give much input there. But I assume
Crumble to Dust is fine against their Eye of Ugins or Eldrazi temples
Stony Silence shuts off their relics and spellbombs
Leyline of Sanctity is good against their discard and Oblivion Sower
Retreat to Coralhelm is good at tapping their big gyus
As your virtual 1 drops, and then trying to play solid curve with 2 drop creatures like voice and thalia (and possibly goyf), topping out at 2x elspeth and 1x sigarda or the like.
Ramping with dorks is really iffy in a deck with counterspells in my opinion.
Well, as I mentioned a couple pages back I've been working on trying to find a more definitive number of cards to play of each card type in this deck to make something of a more accurate deck skeleton. To this end, I've been building a Magic simulator that can be given a range of cards of each type to play, and then it plays some predetermined number of games with every possible deck configuration and records various metrics on them. I've been pretty happy with the more simplistic simulations (I have a thread on them in the main Modern forum) so I added a few more card types and have begun something a little more complex.
My simulator knows the following 11 cards, and was given the following constraints (you'll note there are some auto 4 of's, this is due to previous results of more simplistic decks indicating this is right, and I could save A LOT of processing time by doing so). Cards are only available in groups of 2, so 0-4 cards means only 0, 2, or 4 cards can be tried. The followup which is running now will then use for example 2, 3, and 4.
Land - 5 color land, 16-30
SmallOne - Birds of Paradise, 0-8
LargeOne - Wild Nacatl, 2-4
SmallTwo - Grizzly Bear, 0-8
LargeTwo - Tarmogoyf, 4
Geist - Geist of Saint Traft, 0-4
Knight - Knight of the Reliquary, 0-4
Retreat - Retreat to Coralhelm, 0-4
CoCo - Collected Company, 0-4
Bolt - Lightning Bolt, 4
Shock - Shock, 0-2
The simulator is programmed to recognize the combo and to prioritize the combo over other lines if it comes up. It also recognizes the legendary rule for Geist, and CoCo has a priority on cards (Knight if you can combo, Geist if you lack one, Knight, Goyf, Nacatl, Bear, Birds). For complexity reasons there are only 2700 games being played with each deck though the next iteration should be able to manage 10,000 of each (more possible decks means fewer games of each deck can be run) since these results narrow things down a bit.
Linked is an image of the top 25 deck lists given these parameters (I would have attached but the forum is claiming my 260k image is over 1 GB and thus is too large to attach). Of particular note is the #1 build which comes in at an average win turn of 4.0148. I am optimistic that with some fine tuning of the card pool and a more tuned mulligan strategy it will be possible to break the turn 4 barrier on average. All games are on the play, once I've discovered an optimal play deck I'm going to attempt to build an optimal draw deck.
I'm going to try to get some more indepth results as well, but my hope is that this gives people a better starting point to building the deck as it's currently all over the place.
Well, as I mentioned a couple pages back I've been working on trying to find a more definitive number of cards to play of each card type in this deck to make something of a more accurate deck skeleton. To this end, I've been building a Magic simulator that can be given a range of cards of each type to play, and then it plays some predetermined number of games with every possible deck configuration and records various metrics on them. I've been pretty happy with the more simplistic simulations (I have a thread on them in the main Modern forum) so I added a few more card types and have begun something a little more complex.
My simulator knows the following 11 cards, and was given the following constraints (you'll note there are some auto 4 of's, this is due to previous results of more simplistic decks indicating this is right, and I could save A LOT of processing time by doing so). Cards are only available in groups of 2, so 0-4 cards means only 0, 2, or 4 cards can be tried. The followup which is running now will then use for example 2, 3, and 4.
Land - 5 color land, 16-30
SmallOne - Birds of Paradise, 0-8
LargeOne - Wild Nacatl, 2-4
SmallTwo - Grizzly Bear, 0-8
LargeTwo - Tarmogoyf, 4
Geist - Geist of Saint Traft, 0-4
Knight - Knight of the Reliquary, 0-4
Retreat - Retreat to Coralhelm, 0-4
CoCo - Collected Company, 0-4
Bolt - Lightning Bolt, 4
Shock - Shock, 0-2
The simulator is programmed to recognize the combo and to prioritize the combo over other lines if it comes up. It also recognizes the legendary rule for Geist, and CoCo has a priority on cards (Knight if you can combo, Geist if you lack one, Knight, Goyf, Nacatl, Bear, Birds). For complexity reasons there are only 2700 games being played with each deck though the next iteration should be able to manage 10,000 of each (more possible decks means fewer games of each deck can be run) since these results narrow things down a bit.
Linked is an image of the top 25 deck lists given these parameters (I would have attached but the forum is claiming my 260k image is over 1 GB and thus is too large to attach). Of particular note is the #1 build which comes in at an average win turn of 4.0148. I am optimistic that with some fine tuning of the card pool and a more tuned mulligan strategy it will be possible to break the turn 4 barrier on average. All games are on the play, once I've discovered an optimal play deck I'm going to attempt to build an optimal draw deck.
I'm going to try to get some more indepth results as well, but my hope is that this gives people a better starting point to building the deck as it's currently all over the place.
This is so, so, SO cool.
Can't find the topic in the forums, but is this simulator downloadble and how tough is it to add more creatures/cards to the deck?
I'm mostly thinking about, could one drop the geist to 3, add 2 loxodon smiters and drop the bolts for maybe 3 paths? that would ofcourse make it harder to hit 20 easily.
And the SmallTwo, is that just a 2/2 ? or could it be a pridemage or voice maybe buffing us below the 4.0148?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
In the videos I've watched I like the way the Zoo variant plays, it's aggressive and gets a lot of extra percentage points from unknown information. For example, if your opponent kills the Goyf they have to risk your KotR killing them, but if they don't kill the Goyf it's going to kill them eventually. I like having diverse threats like that.
When I've tried some sample lists online though before making my own I keep running into a problem that I didn't see in the decks video primers. The manabase is simply costing me games. It feels way too fragile as a 4c manabase but I don't see an alternative. If you want to pressure the opponent Nacatl puts you in red which also then lets you pick up Bolt for free, while Geist and the combo put you in blue. I haven't read this entire thread but I've read about the first 10 pages along with the last 30 and I haven't seen any manabase discussion at all other than on Sejiri Steppe and Kessig Wolf Run. It seems like people are just throwing some lands together and calling it done.
So, on that subject what have people thought about the various land counts? Collected Company really wants around 27 creatures and 3 CoCo (more on that below) brings you to 30 cards. 22 lands makes it 52 which leaves 8 other spells. That setup seems to interfere with the combo though. If there's only 8 other spell slots you have to sacrifice either removal or combo potential. Has anyone been able to work in Ghost Quarters or Horizon Canopy? What fetchland balance is optimal? Obviously some green fetches are good because all of the real T1 plays involve green mana but beyond that it becomes more of a question. Is Wooded Foothills really offering anything over Flooded Strand for example? Arid Mesa and Windswept Heath are clearly the best ones because they gets all 4 colors without having to run a Steam Vents, but is it right to be running say 4 Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest? Or even over Scalding Tarn?
Outside of the manabase when I build or tune decks I like figuring out a deck skeleton based on what breakdown for the various slots is optimal. That will take me awhile to decide on for this deck, but in the meantime I have some thoughts on the three drops that might be worth discussing.
With Collected Company, I've seen a lot of lists running 4 but I'm not so sure that's correct. I was playing with a bunch of percentages today in a spreadsheet and basically what I found was that the sweet spot between deck slots invested and consistency was at 3 copies of CoCo attempting to find 2 of's. This invested the minimum number of resources to have a reasonable change of finding the card. It seems to me that a lot of these lists are running more 3 drops than the format really allows you to run, so I think making a few trims here to get a better curve could improve lists as the ~13 3 drops definitely feels like too many.
For example the three/four drops could look like
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Collected Company
That cuts 2 slots without appreciably hurting the chance at a combo, which then frees up two slots further down the curve for either more aggression or protection.
To put this in perspective a 2 of with 3 CoCo's is as consistent as a 3 of without any CoCo and a 3 of with 3 CoCo's is as consistent as a 4 of without any. The pattern holds for 1 of's as well. Basically you can think of 3 CoCo as being worth +1 copy of every other creature in the deck. The 4th CoCo can push that further but because of how math works, the second CoCo has less impact than the first, and the third has less than the second, so really that final copy isn't very good. If people wish, I can post the spreadsheet I built on this stuff later.
On the topic of land, I have played both BANT version and Zoo version.
In BANT version you would want to have around 9 or 10 fetches and you will find it just nice while in zoo you could want as many as 12 fetches to consistently make nacatl a 3/3 on turn 2 if you drop her on turn one. It is also highly recommended from my experience that all fetches to be able at least fetch forest. Zoo compared to BANT are less affected by the life loss from fetches due to the amount of cheap but big threat which usually already drop opponent life too a much lower point before you combo out unlike BANT.
Anyway this is the land I run for BANT:
2 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Stomping Ground (if only playing 9 fetches you can drop 1 flooded and increase temple garden)
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
Usually in BANT you would run some number of birds of paradise so the need for red is not that important, a single stomping ground is more than enough to produce the red for wolf run.
And this is the land I run for zoo:
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Arid Mesa
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
Do note that BANT version is less afraid of a turn 3 blood moon compared to zoo as BANT tend to fetches basic for the 1st 3 turns while zoo usually fetches a shock for the 2nd land drop in order to make nacatl 3/3 which sometimes hurt your color to cast stuff you want to cast. And spreading seas hurts zoo more compared to BANT.
Anyway, all these are only my own experience so I'm not saying it's the same for everyone.
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
I'll be honest I'm not really a modern player so I'm just trying something cool and seeing what works and doesn't but I liked the idea of a more controlling build with something that can hopefully just randomly combo off. I'm wondering does this list look alright or am I trying to do this with a direction that has been tried and just doesn't work well?
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendillion Clique
4x Serum Vision
4x Path to Exile
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
2x Cryptic Command
4x Remand
4x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
2x Plains
3x Forest
2x Temple Garden
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Ghost Quarter
You have a lack of 2-drop creatures so I think running a couple more Birds of Paradise might be a good call so that you can maximize your chances at a turn 2 three drop when you need to get aggressive. If you can land a turn 2 geist in a deck like this, you can probably tempo out the opponent with your countermagic and removal (which you might want a bit more of). I can see adding in a couple of Dromoka's Command to the mix here for a couple additional removal spells that have additional utility against red sweepers.
Another thing to note here, is that based on your current card choices you are more of a U/G deck splashing white, where most Bant Knightfall decks are G/W splashing blue. I think that if you want to support your suite of counterspells (especially cryptic), and snapcaster, you might want more blue sources in your land base. Maybe another Breeding Pool over the second Temple Garden, and if you own them a couple more blue fetches over a basic plains and a basic forest.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Dispel
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
1x Deprive
3x Bant Charm
3x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Temple Garden
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
1x Sacred Foundry
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Island
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gavony Township
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Dispel
2x Stony Silence
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Creeping Corrosion
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Kitchen Finks
Game plan is to land a turn 2 threat and either combo on turn 3 or keep them off balance. Elspeth on turn 3 with a turn 2 Geist is pretty brutal. Originally ran 4 Coralhelms and 1 Elspeth, but she over performed and I added a 2nd.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I have also found that a good hatebear to run in the deck is Aven Mindcensor. I have even started dropping some beefy beaters for it in the mainboard. Works great with mainboard Ghost Quarters and Paths, and it's an answer to scapeshift (which IMO is a pretty bad matchup without them), along with any other decks that like to search their libraries a lot.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Aven Mindcensor for maps, sylvan scrying and Eye of Ugin.
Gaddock Teeg for Karn and Ugin
Crumble to Dust for Urza lands
Stony Silence for their O.Stones, Maps, Relics and eggs
Burrenton Forge-Tender is fine against pyroclasm (if you're planning to run them anyways against burn)
Bx eldrazi is a deck I have yet not played against, so I can't give much input there. But I assume
Crumble to Dust is fine against their Eye of Ugins or Eldrazi temples
Stony Silence shuts off their relics and spellbombs
Leyline of Sanctity is good against their discard and Oblivion Sower
Retreat to Coralhelm is good at tapping their big gyus
Something like:
As your virtual 1 drops, and then trying to play solid curve with 2 drop creatures like voice and thalia (and possibly goyf), topping out at 2x elspeth and 1x sigarda or the like.
Ramping with dorks is really iffy in a deck with counterspells in my opinion.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
What token hates do we have in our color?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
My simulator knows the following 11 cards, and was given the following constraints (you'll note there are some auto 4 of's, this is due to previous results of more simplistic decks indicating this is right, and I could save A LOT of processing time by doing so). Cards are only available in groups of 2, so 0-4 cards means only 0, 2, or 4 cards can be tried. The followup which is running now will then use for example 2, 3, and 4.
Land - 5 color land, 16-30
SmallOne - Birds of Paradise, 0-8
LargeOne - Wild Nacatl, 2-4
SmallTwo - Grizzly Bear, 0-8
LargeTwo - Tarmogoyf, 4
Geist - Geist of Saint Traft, 0-4
Knight - Knight of the Reliquary, 0-4
Retreat - Retreat to Coralhelm, 0-4
CoCo - Collected Company, 0-4
Bolt - Lightning Bolt, 4
Shock - Shock, 0-2
The simulator is programmed to recognize the combo and to prioritize the combo over other lines if it comes up. It also recognizes the legendary rule for Geist, and CoCo has a priority on cards (Knight if you can combo, Geist if you lack one, Knight, Goyf, Nacatl, Bear, Birds). For complexity reasons there are only 2700 games being played with each deck though the next iteration should be able to manage 10,000 of each (more possible decks means fewer games of each deck can be run) since these results narrow things down a bit.
Linked is an image of the top 25 deck lists given these parameters (I would have attached but the forum is claiming my 260k image is over 1 GB and thus is too large to attach). Of particular note is the #1 build which comes in at an average win turn of 4.0148. I am optimistic that with some fine tuning of the card pool and a more tuned mulligan strategy it will be possible to break the turn 4 barrier on average. All games are on the play, once I've discovered an optimal play deck I'm going to attempt to build an optimal draw deck.
I'm going to try to get some more indepth results as well, but my hope is that this gives people a better starting point to building the deck as it's currently all over the place.
http://imgur.com/72kVURY
This is so, so, SO cool.
Can't find the topic in the forums, but is this simulator downloadble and how tough is it to add more creatures/cards to the deck?
I'm mostly thinking about, could one drop the geist to 3, add 2 loxodon smiters and drop the bolts for maybe 3 paths? that would ofcourse make it harder to hit 20 easily.
And the SmallTwo, is that just a 2/2 ? or could it be a pridemage or voice maybe buffing us below the 4.0148?