Unless you think it's necessary, Bazooka Boging an Abzan Midrange deck isn't as great as just resolving a Scavenging Ooze. The Bojuka Bog is in the Sideboard mainly as a hedge towards various graveyard strategies that are difficult to beat. The thing is, the majority of graveyard strategies that you'll face with Bant Knightfall can be beaten handly with Spell Queller, Scavenging Ooze, Unified Will/Deprive/Negate/Dispel, and Gaddock Teeg & Eidolon.
Not sure if this is the right sub to talk about this, but I played Todd Steven's GW "ValueTown" deck here https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/692848#paper with -1 Finks -1 Crucible +2 Ramunap Excavator in a comp league. Started out 3-0 but ended 3-2 losing to Ad Naus and Infect. It was my first time playing the deck but I now see the glaring weaknesses. I felt like I could never win in a million years against Ad Naus, and probably any non-interactive decks in general. Excavator was fine though. Felt good with Ghost Quarter, and combined well with Azusa. Although I felt like I had an overabundance of "get extra land" abilities between courser and excavator and Knight. I missed Reflector Mage a lot. And with the GW version, casting CoCo doesn't have any good instant speed effects. You just get knights, Coursers, Excavators, etc., no reflector mages, quellers, or staticasters like traditional knightfall.
Unless you think it's necessary, Bazooka Boging an Abzan Midrange deck isn't as great as just resolving a Scavenging Ooze. The Bojuka Bog is in the Sideboard mainly as a hedge towards various graveyard strategies that are difficult to beat. The thing is, the majority of graveyard strategies that you'll face with Bant Knightfall can be beaten handly with Spell Queller, Scavenging Ooze, Unified Will/Deprive/Negate/Dispel, and Gaddock Teeg & Eidolon.
That was my thought. Since I had already committed to siding it in, I decided to try it. But I agree that it's probably not necessary. I should specify that I took out 1 Scavenging Ooze for a 4th BoP. I really don't like playing 7 mana dorks only in a deck, although admittedly I haven't tried it in quite a while.
Not sure if this is the right sub to talk about this, but I played Todd Steven's GW "ValueTown" deck here https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/692848#paper with -1 Finks -1 Crucible +2 Ramunap Excavator in a comp league. Started out 3-0 but ended 3-2 losing to Ad Naus and Infect. It was my first time playing the deck but I now see the glaring weaknesses. I felt like I could never win in a million years against Ad Naus, and probably any non-interactive decks in general. Excavator was fine though. Felt good with Ghost Quarter, and combined well with Azusa. Although I felt like I had an overabundance of "get extra land" abilities between courser and excavator and Knight. I missed Reflector Mage a lot. And with the GW version, casting CoCo doesn't have any good instant speed effects. You just get knights, Coursers, Excavators, etc., no reflector mages, quellers, or staticasters like traditional knightfall.
Don't feel bad. Ad Nauseam stomps a lot of decks that have hardly anything they can do against it. It's the nature of the deck and the fact that nobody really ever prepares for Ad Nauseam. Luckily, discard is pretty strong against AN, and Grixis Death's Shadow is somewhat warping the meta around it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Not sure if this is the right sub to talk about this, but I played Todd Steven's GW "ValueTown" deck here https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/692848#paper with -1 Finks -1 Crucible +2 Ramunap Excavator in a comp league. Started out 3-0 but ended 3-2 losing to Ad Naus and Infect. It was my first time playing the deck but I now see the glaring weaknesses. I felt like I could never win in a million years against Ad Naus, and probably any non-interactive decks in general. Excavator was fine though. Felt good with Ghost Quarter, and combined well with Azusa. Although I felt like I had an overabundance of "get extra land" abilities between courser and excavator and Knight. I missed Reflector Mage a lot. And with the GW version, casting CoCo doesn't have any good instant speed effects. You just get knights, Coursers, Excavators, etc., no reflector mages, quellers, or staticasters like traditional knightfall.
The only way you're winning that MU is Strip Mining them into oblivion since their deck had no basics and stony Silence turns off their rocks and lotus bloom
Does anyone have a sideboard plan vs. Human Company? Their deck looks like it destroys us entirely
It's a coin toss in my experience. Reflector Mage and Izzet Staticaster are the key cards (along with obviously Coco). The player on the play has a huge advantage.
What's the consensus of mana dork numbers and land numbers in traditional Knightfall? 23 lands + 7 Dorks or 22 lands + 8 Dorks? Obviously most hands are much better with a t1 dork, but that makes your deck weaker to sweepers and spot removal, and you are less likely to hit that important 3rd or 4th land drop if your dorks die. In an open meta, I'm thinking that 22 lands + 8 Dorks is good main, with a bojuka bog in the board that I can bring in against the sweeper/grindy decks to hit those land drops while cutting a bird or two.
I think these minor differences between 22 lands + 8 mana dorks/ 23 lands + 7 mana dorks/ 22 lands + 7 mana dorks/ 23 lands + 8 mana dorks are so minuscule that it's almost negligible; the question then becomes "which configuration would you play for X meta?" or "which decks am I willing to compromise for in order to have an edge against X(RGValakut, Various Combo decks, etc)". If your decision on any of these variations is predicated on hitting more lands, then play more lands (23 lands is great). If you're trying to be as fast as possible then playing 8 mana dorks and 22 lands is a superb choice. If you're concerned about fair decks then 7 mana dorks + 23(2) lands is serviceable. Again, these differences are so minuscule across a large sample size of games. These things don't seem as important as the content in the deck, excluding the lands and mana dorks.
What about Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit in the Vizier version. It allows Druid to get more mana, makes your creatures more powerful, and could allow us to beef up some birds.
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I don't think you can compare anafensa to township, they play out completely differently.
That being said I agree with Caleb. No way either version wants that card. If you saw other company decks playing it along side the druid combo, it was probably because it's a piece of the finks combo, which we don't play
What's the consensus of mana dork numbers and land numbers in traditional Knightfall? 23 lands + 7 Dorks or 22 lands + 8 Dorks? Obviously most hands are much better with a t1 dork, but that makes your deck weaker to sweepers and spot removal, and you are less likely to hit that important 3rd or 4th land drop if your dorks die. In an open meta, I'm thinking that 22 lands + 8 Dorks is good main, with a bojuka bog in the board that I can bring in against the sweeper/grindy decks to hit those land drops while cutting a bird or two.
This has been my approach recently and I think it's correct. I also run an extra Ghost Quarter in the sideboard.
In the Vizier version I'm debating between 21/22 lands and 6/7 dorks (given that the 4 druids are also Mana ramp)
I just posted this over in the humans thread but seeing as this is a hybrid build I thought I'd see what everyone thinks over here too. Vizier Knightfall has become a known entity so I was wandering why I hadn't seen any human knightfall variants pop up since the two company decks have some nice crossover. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough:p Knightfall gives human company a great standalone threat while humans company gives knightfall a quick and robust aggro engine to rely upon. This is my initial list:
7 dorks and 22 lands is probably too greedy but it's where I'd like to start. This build is obviously less disruptive than knightfall. Instead it looks to leverage the small amount of disruption it does pack to close out games in quick fashion with an efficient curve of humans. Glory-Bound Initiate seems very strong with noble's exalted pump, lieutenant's pump, and coralhelm's untaps. I'd love to fit in a 23rd land, 3rd retreat and some number of eternal witness but have no idea what I'd want to cut for that unless I was in a meta extremely unfavorable towards reflector mage. It'd be great to fit some stony silence and unified will in the sideboard as well but what to cut. I know I could trim a lot of these cards to 2 in the board but they're all cards I usually like to see with the frequency of at least a 3 of in their respective matches. I'd love to hear any thoughts on the build, thanks in advance.
I think this is pretty cool. If you take this to anything and play it, I'd love to hear what happens man. I'd totally play that sort of list. I'm thinking the sideboard of mine would definitely have things like: bojuka bog, counters (unified will), stony silence. Also, I'd likely run little thalia main or side probably, she seems a little too good to leave out.
I think the reason the human company deck never played/s knight, is because of mana constraints, and knight is only good when it can start sacrificing lands, as we all know. Obviously giving up humans like sin collector, pontiff, kambal and anafenza for not running black might hurt a little, but also might make the deck a little easier to play with more streamlined mana and the huge benefits of knight. It'll be interesting to test an idea like this, i might try it myself just for kicks.
Thanks dreadnought, hopefully I can get some games in today and get a feel for the deck. I'm feeling pretty inspired by the work that the naya company zoo guys are putting in. They're quietly racking up some nice results with what I have always thought looked like an overly fair build concept. I think I'm finally starting to realize how much play decks like that have against diverse metas. gw aggro and human tribal has never really done it for me but this hybrid build has me super excited.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben should probably be in there yes, I just hate what she looks like sitting in the hand of a deck trying to resolve timely coco's. Maybe as a 2 of a la Craig Wescoe's GW taxes company from GP Vegas.
The sideboard is just bad. There are at least 20 cards I'd love in there. Company sideboards are so hard for me because there are usually double the options for any kind of effect to consider between its best spell versions and best etb creature versions. Bojuka Bog is definitely getting in there can't believe I forgot about that.
I think I like the power of knight over the various multi color humans. knight is a house all by himself and doesn't need coco to be efficient. The manabase can be very consistent as base GW with just a touch of blue and red.
Does anyone have any experience with familiar's ruse in their 75? this seems pretty dirty in conjunction with etb effects, especially eternal witness.
Out of curiosity, is there a consensus that Stony Silence is better than Manglehorn? I ask because I run the latter for the obvious company hit with what I would argue is a moderately similar effect.
Malkomann some number of caverns should definitely be in any human tribal but I don't know about 4 for this build. you still want plenty of fetches and forests/plains to fuel knight. I just didn't feel like completely figuring out the manabase yet and that was an easy one to type out. probs cut a fetch and two shocks for 3 cavern.
manglehorn seems sweet but I feel like If I was running a piece of hate that hit artifacts but not enchantments I would want stony because its the most back breaking artifact hate out there. No consensus just a feeling. I could see a split being great since multiple stonies does nothing and manglehorn turns coco into potential hate too. Maybe a 2-1, 2-2 or 3-1 split, I'd be in favor of more stonies though.
Stony Silence is the way to go for artifact hate. Once it hits play, all their game breaking plays are shut off other than something already equipped with Cranial Plating. And we already have Ref Mage, Pridemage, Path and Staticaster to get rid of whatever is holding it. Plus some number of flying blockers if needed. So do we really need Manglehorn if Stony Silence and Staticaster already plug the missing holes of our main deck?
I've been convincingly trounced by Human Company, too. They are fast and powerful, but run out of gas. I'm trying Narnam Renegade to slow them down. I think with Narnam Renegade and a couple of Paths, plus Reflector Mage, this matchup should be winnable.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35491_Knightfalls-Past-And-Future.html New article written by one of my heroes, Eli Kassis. He writes some very interesting stuff for sure about what we're doing right and wrong, very useful. I won't be trying out the deck he put at the end anytime soon, since I think Arbiter and Knight do not fit together, but I still appreciate this article quite a bit and I'm glad Knightfall is getting some attention on a major site from one of the decks champions!
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That was my thought. Since I had already committed to siding it in, I decided to try it. But I agree that it's probably not necessary. I should specify that I took out 1 Scavenging Ooze for a 4th BoP. I really don't like playing 7 mana dorks only in a deck, although admittedly I haven't tried it in quite a while.
Don't feel bad. Ad Nauseam stomps a lot of decks that have hardly anything they can do against it. It's the nature of the deck and the fact that nobody really ever prepares for Ad Nauseam. Luckily, discard is pretty strong against AN, and Grixis Death's Shadow is somewhat warping the meta around it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The only way you're winning that MU is Strip Mining them into oblivion since their deck had no basics and stony Silence turns off their rocks and lotus bloom
It's a coin toss in my experience. Reflector Mage and Izzet Staticaster are the key cards (along with obviously Coco). The player on the play has a huge advantage.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
That being said I agree with Caleb. No way either version wants that card. If you saw other company decks playing it along side the druid combo, it was probably because it's a piece of the finks combo, which we don't play
This has been my approach recently and I think it's correct. I also run an extra Ghost Quarter in the sideboard.
In the Vizier version I'm debating between 21/22 lands and 6/7 dorks (given that the 4 druids are also Mana ramp)
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Perish
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Izzet Staticaster
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Lone Missionary
3 Reclamation Sage
3 Rest in Peace
7 dorks and 22 lands is probably too greedy but it's where I'd like to start. This build is obviously less disruptive than knightfall. Instead it looks to leverage the small amount of disruption it does pack to close out games in quick fashion with an efficient curve of humans. Glory-Bound Initiate seems very strong with noble's exalted pump, lieutenant's pump, and coralhelm's untaps. I'd love to fit in a 23rd land, 3rd retreat and some number of eternal witness but have no idea what I'd want to cut for that unless I was in a meta extremely unfavorable towards reflector mage. It'd be great to fit some stony silence and unified will in the sideboard as well but what to cut. I know I could trim a lot of these cards to 2 in the board but they're all cards I usually like to see with the frequency of at least a 3 of in their respective matches. I'd love to hear any thoughts on the build, thanks in advance.
I think the reason the human company deck never played/s knight, is because of mana constraints, and knight is only good when it can start sacrificing lands, as we all know. Obviously giving up humans like sin collector, pontiff, kambal and anafenza for not running black might hurt a little, but also might make the deck a little easier to play with more streamlined mana and the huge benefits of knight. It'll be interesting to test an idea like this, i might try it myself just for kicks.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben should probably be in there yes, I just hate what she looks like sitting in the hand of a deck trying to resolve timely coco's. Maybe as a 2 of a la Craig Wescoe's GW taxes company from GP Vegas.
The sideboard is just bad. There are at least 20 cards I'd love in there. Company sideboards are so hard for me because there are usually double the options for any kind of effect to consider between its best spell versions and best etb creature versions. Bojuka Bog is definitely getting in there can't believe I forgot about that.
I think I like the power of knight over the various multi color humans. knight is a house all by himself and doesn't need coco to be efficient. The manabase can be very consistent as base GW with just a touch of blue and red.
Does anyone have any experience with familiar's ruse in their 75? this seems pretty dirty in conjunction with etb effects, especially eternal witness.
manglehorn seems sweet but I feel like If I was running a piece of hate that hit artifacts but not enchantments I would want stony because its the most back breaking artifact hate out there. No consensus just a feeling. I could see a split being great since multiple stonies does nothing and manglehorn turns coco into potential hate too. Maybe a 2-1, 2-2 or 3-1 split, I'd be in favor of more stonies though.