I had thought of trying to brew something like that.One concern I have with your initial list is the lack of removal. I'm not sure it makes sense to try and beat burn, infect, dredge and affinity with zero mainboard removal. I wonder if something like reflector mage and/or fiend hunter could work alongside a couple paths. Maybe there are enough flyers though that removal isn't critical MB.
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I had thought of trying to brew something like that.One concern I have with your initial list is the lack of removal. I'm not sure it makes sense to try and beat burn, infect, dredge and affinity with zero mainboard removal. I wonder if something like reflector mage and/or fiend hunter could work alongside a couple paths. Maybe there are enough flyers though that removal isn't critical MB.
I haven't found the lack of Path to be a big deal in the mainboard. Knight is usually bigger than just about anything and there aren't really any creatures that straight up shut us down (at least, none come to mind). And as you said, the mainboard fliers help. So in the mainboard I'd rather pursue the proactive gameplan and bring Path in from the side when needed.
I'm usually not a big fan of Fiend Hunter, and I feel that adding too many non-spirits may damage the spirit tribal BUT Fiend Hunter + Kira (and the other protective spirits) does seem sweet, so maybe that's not a bad idea.
My experience when playing against infect and affinity specifically is that when we don't have the option to block (Blighted Agent, Inkmoth Nexus, signal pest, etc) you are vulnerable to losing to those cards because we can't interact with our bigger creatures. Knight and goyf have been great brick walls against some decks, but specifically Inkmoth and Blighted agent are tough to stop without interaction. That being said, at least for inkmoth, the spirits can interact so you're not as vulnerable as some other builds.
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Also I'm currently wondering if a black splash would be better than a red splash. I'm worried with how little the deck does against dredge which can be easily fixed by playing Anafenza, the Foremost and you then can play cards like Orzhov Pontiff, Sin Collector, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, etc.
But at that point you just play Kiki Chord or Abzan Company, no?
Same reason why people played black-splash Kiki Chord over Abzan Company for the same hate cards--they're still different decks. We're not changing the core of the deck, just the splash color.
Going to a tournament without a legitimate answer to Dredge is going to be a huge mistake going forward. Scooze isn't fast enough, Surgical Extraction isn't enough, RIP shuts off Knight, Grafdigger's Cage shuts of Company/Evolution, etc. Anafenza, the Foremost is something that is going to be seeing a lot more play going forward and there's no real reason not to try it in Bant Retreat. If you're not splashing red for Kessig Wolf Run or Nahiri, then I see no reason why it's better than black. Thoughtseize alone is a more powerful card than any red splash card.
I've been wondering, what's wrong with a Bojuka Bog in the side? Eli Kassis doesn't run it which makes me wonder. I understand that it is a one time effect, but it is tutorable and, other than Tarmogoyf builds, it's pretty nice to exile their whole grave.
Round 1 vs Bant eldrazi: turn 3 on the play combo against his turn 2 matter reshaper was decisive. On he draw, I combo'd turn 4 through path. Quick 2-0
Round 2 vs Mono-Black deathcloud: A brew that did okay on the day - but it was an easy matchup. I had enough dorks, land and threats that deathclouds had to be cast early but left nahiri to do her thing. Nahiri won both games since the deathcloud doesn't interact. 2-0.
Round 3 vs Dredge: Turn 3 combo game one finished the game when I was lost if he untaps. Game 2 a surgical extraction took the relevant stuff and the game was over with tarmo beats. 2-0
Round 4 vs Jund: Nissa into Nahiri gave enough time to put emrakul into play. It was not a one-shot so he didnt scoop until the followup goyf. Game 2 was a longer game where turn 2 bob didn't get answered right away. Bob drew enough removal to keep me off the board, and kologhans did work. Game 3 knight and goyf held the ground for long enough for Nahiri to do her thing. 2-1
Round 5 vs Infect: Turn 3 double mutagenic with become immense on blighted agent got under my interaction when I tapped out to put a knight into play to threaten my own turn 3 win. Game 2 turn 3 combo with stubborn denial backup got there through removal. Game 3 went the same way as game 1 with unblockable turn 3 become immense. 1-2
Round 6 draw to top 8.
A messy quarterfinal against Abzan company knocked me out. Some critical play mistakes held me back here - a function of how deep abzan company's lines can be. Won game 1 on the back of the knightfall combo, but lost game 2 when I failed to find any hate against a fast combo hand. Game 3 I got impatient and surgical extraction'd an eternal witness target, only to lose to the topdecked kitchen finks the very next turn. Lost 1-2 a very winnable game3.
I am very comfortable with the build, and feel like it has all the tools to win any matchup.
1.- Has Gideon ever been useful to you? It feels like a burden in my hand everytime.
2.- What do you side in against burn or infect?
3.- What's Tamiyo's role? Is it just because is it in color? Or is it because we want to be cute?
4.- What do you think about Chandra Pyromancer? Or Ajani?
Besides that it is an excellent list. I've been having tons of fun and it can be very skill intensive.
Tamiyo and Gideon are both there to help the Jund/grixis matchup. Tamiyo and gideon both have synergy with Nahiri by allowing you to tap permanents so that Nahiri can exile them. Curving from nahiri into gideon is hard to deal with because gideon will force you to attack him while nahiri goes ult. Gideon most often acts as removal and fog, while Tamiyo is fog or card draw. Often all the deck needs against jund/grixis is an extra turn or two to ult nahiri.
Ajani competes for Tamiyo's slot. I gave the nod to Tamiyo because drawing extra cards vs jund and grixis has been very useful. That slot was used specifically to help those matchups. I don't see chandra as a better option than either of those two.
Glad you like the list!
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So I've been keeping up with the testing and its better each time. I like Ajani vengeant much more than Gideon Jura as the mana cost helps deploy it much easier and its modes are much more relevant.
However right now I am struggling with two things:
1.- Lack of redundancy: There are too many planeswalkers and I need reliability instead of spread options. Which one do you think is our best planeswalker besides Nahiri?
2.- Struggling with aggro decks: Sometimes all in strategies gimme headaches (alas Naya Humans or Lil Zoo) What can we do to stop them?
I used to play more Nissa, Voice of Zendikar (3). However, that ran into a problem. The most common used ability is her +1 until she can ult (unless the -2 leads to a win, then go that line ) which results in too many dead draws. Emrakul is always a dead draw, and if you have a planeswalker in play that becomes a dead draw. Between Dorks, emrakul, redundant retreats and redundant planeswalkers, there are simply too many dead draws when you use multiples of non-nahiri walkers. At least nahiri will help cycle so you are not punished by having them in hand. If you have a nissa in play and nissa in hand, that is a dead draw.
I understand your concerns, but with this build I feel it has less dead draws by not having redundant planeswalkers. Dead draws is a real concern for the deck. I still maintain Gideon Jura is an all-star. Whether you curved with creatures or walkers, fog and tap your team plus hit you for six or repeat next turn is almost always game-ending. Either you hit them with big creatures for lethal over 1-2 turns or you get emrakul into play. Either way gideon did serious work.
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I'm a fan of the the main 60. But some of the sideboard choices elude me. The 3 staticaster seem like overkill, and only 3 scooze as graveyard hate seems lite for the dredge matchup.
3 Scooze, 4 path and 2 worship seem ok for dredge - never tried worship myself. 4 MD spell queller is a bit innovative - I don't think we've seen results with that card yet. Selfless spirit is not exactly a fast clock, but plays a role. The most questionable choice to me is the 3x Noble Hierarch - where is number 4 hiding? Surely 4 Nobles and 3 Birds is correct for 7 dorks?
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3 Scooze, 4 path and 2 worship seem ok for dredge - never tried worship myself. 4 MD spell queller is a bit innovative - I don't think we've seen results with that card yet. Selfless spirit is not exactly a fast clock, but plays a role. The most questionable choice to me is the 3x Noble Hierarch - where is number 4 hiding? Surely 4 Nobles and 3 Birds is correct for 7 dorks?
The dork split leans towards BoP to help with red mana. (Wolf Run/Staticaster).
The Spell Quellers feel great in this list. You have them up on turn 2 most of the time, they obviously play well with CoCo, and they serve as blowout protection when you're going off.
The red splash also feels good. Wolf Run is a primo finisher, and great with Knight in general. The flex spots seem to be 1 Spellskite, 2 Selfless Spirit, 2 Scooze, 2 Pridemage. I love Selfless Spirit here. They blank sweepers, protect the combo, and act as a trick off of CoCo. I could see trying to find room for a 3rd in the 75 as we move forward.
I am stuck between 2 deck choices. The top 8 Guangzhou and wpgstevo's decklists. How are these decks vs the current heavy agro/rg breach meta? Any chance someone can elaborate a bit for me?
Aslo what is Nissa's purpose in this deck? And is there anything as of now you would change wpgstevo.
I am stuck between 2 deck choices. The top 8 Guangzhou and wpgstevo's decklists. How are these decks vs the current heavy agro/rg breach meta? Any chance someone can elaborate a bit for me?
Aslo what is Nissa's purpose in this deck? And is there anything as of now you would change wpgstevo.
P.S. - Love the depth info wpgstevo.
I think if you are just picking up the deck, running company over nahiri has merit. Running company is a bit more proactive and linear - you tend to just jam creatures and then companies until you win via beats or find your combo. Being proactive in the format is generally good, and it makes the lines of play a bit more simple. There are a couple weaknesses due to the variance inherit with coco, but especially post-board you can have many powerful (creature) bullets that you are pretty good at finding.
Nahiri has a few upsides - she is a flexible threat, card filter and answer. One of the reasons that I like her best is that she is a threat that avoids almost all removal, while being removal herself. She isn't as explosive but she is very consistent. Playing her also helps put cards in the yard (ad gives additional cardtypes) which makes Tarmogoyf good in the deck as opposed to coco variations which too often end up with a 1/2 or 2/3 goyf for too long. I think her main downside is that Emrakul is annoying to draw, and can be a non-bo with goyf and knight at times. You can also be more comfortable being less reliant on Path since you can exile with Nahiri.
In the Nahiri build, Nissa plays a couple roles. Firstly, Nissa is a good card to curve into Nahiri with because she can provide chumps every turn while threatening her own ult. Nissa's alt has happened surprisingly often as opponents scramble to deal with goyfs, knights and nahiris. Drawing 5+ cards from nissa has been gg every time. Additionally, she can make dork-heavy draws much better by doubling up with township to make the dorks real threats and provide a "going wide" angle.
Tamiyo and gideon are two cards that are probably still a bit speculative. They have won a few grindy games like with jund, esper mentor or abzan company. However, they get sided out quite frequently against the aggro decks. I think an argument could be made that they should be in the board. Ajani Vengeant could probably make a case for taking either of their slots.
TL;DR: If you want more consistent, individual card power and depth of play, go with the Nahiri build. If you want a more explosive gameplan that can run lots of creature bullets, go with Coco.
Can someone explain to me the rationale behind Blessed Alliance? The card seems fine, I'm just wondering what deck(s) you would run it against.
Blessed Alliance seems more like an anti-Nahiri card to me. The untap mode prevents Nahiri's exile and the sacrifice mode stops the Emrakul hit (though you could still be in trouble from the annihilator trigger). Could also do work against burn with the gaining four life and untapping for a surprise block.
I've been on the black splash plan for the last two weeks and I was considering putting in Grim Flayer to see how that'd work. Delirium doesn't seem that easy to get but seems like a solid card either way.
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KnightfallGWUR
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I haven't found the lack of Path to be a big deal in the mainboard. Knight is usually bigger than just about anything and there aren't really any creatures that straight up shut us down (at least, none come to mind). And as you said, the mainboard fliers help. So in the mainboard I'd rather pursue the proactive gameplan and bring Path in from the side when needed.
I'm usually not a big fan of Fiend Hunter, and I feel that adding too many non-spirits may damage the spirit tribal BUT Fiend Hunter + Kira (and the other protective spirits) does seem sweet, so maybe that's not a bad idea.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Same reason why people played black-splash Kiki Chord over Abzan Company for the same hate cards--they're still different decks. We're not changing the core of the deck, just the splash color.
Going to a tournament without a legitimate answer to Dredge is going to be a huge mistake going forward. Scooze isn't fast enough, Surgical Extraction isn't enough, RIP shuts off Knight, Grafdigger's Cage shuts of Company/Evolution, etc. Anafenza, the Foremost is something that is going to be seeing a lot more play going forward and there's no real reason not to try it in Bant Retreat. If you're not splashing red for Kessig Wolf Run or Nahiri, then I see no reason why it's better than black. Thoughtseize alone is a more powerful card than any red splash card.
This is what I'm thinking:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Courser of Kruphix
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Reveillark
Spells: 11
3x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Eldritch Evolution
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
4x Forest
2x Plains
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Temple Garden
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Sin Collector
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
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4 Noble Hierarch
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Gideon Jura
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Path to Exile
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Dromoka's Command
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Grafdigger's cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dispel
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Wear // Tear
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Stony Silence
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Crumble to Dust
Played in a 6 round PPTQ yesterday.
Round 1 vs Bant eldrazi: turn 3 on the play combo against his turn 2 matter reshaper was decisive. On he draw, I combo'd turn 4 through path. Quick 2-0
Round 2 vs Mono-Black deathcloud: A brew that did okay on the day - but it was an easy matchup. I had enough dorks, land and threats that deathclouds had to be cast early but left nahiri to do her thing. Nahiri won both games since the deathcloud doesn't interact. 2-0.
Round 3 vs Dredge: Turn 3 combo game one finished the game when I was lost if he untaps. Game 2 a surgical extraction took the relevant stuff and the game was over with tarmo beats. 2-0
Round 4 vs Jund: Nissa into Nahiri gave enough time to put emrakul into play. It was not a one-shot so he didnt scoop until the followup goyf. Game 2 was a longer game where turn 2 bob didn't get answered right away. Bob drew enough removal to keep me off the board, and kologhans did work. Game 3 knight and goyf held the ground for long enough for Nahiri to do her thing. 2-1
Round 5 vs Infect: Turn 3 double mutagenic with become immense on blighted agent got under my interaction when I tapped out to put a knight into play to threaten my own turn 3 win. Game 2 turn 3 combo with stubborn denial backup got there through removal. Game 3 went the same way as game 1 with unblockable turn 3 become immense. 1-2
Round 6 draw to top 8.
A messy quarterfinal against Abzan company knocked me out. Some critical play mistakes held me back here - a function of how deep abzan company's lines can be. Won game 1 on the back of the knightfall combo, but lost game 2 when I failed to find any hate against a fast combo hand. Game 3 I got impatient and surgical extraction'd an eternal witness target, only to lose to the topdecked kitchen finks the very next turn. Lost 1-2 a very winnable game3.
I am very comfortable with the build, and feel like it has all the tools to win any matchup.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I've been testing your list. A few questions:
1.- Has Gideon ever been useful to you? It feels like a burden in my hand everytime.
2.- What do you side in against burn or infect?
3.- What's Tamiyo's role? Is it just because is it in color? Or is it because we want to be cute?
4.- What do you think about Chandra Pyromancer? Or Ajani?
Besides that it is an excellent list. I've been having tons of fun and it can be very skill intensive.
Burn: -1 Tamiyo, -1 Gideon, -1 Emrakul, +2 Dispel, +1 Dromoka's Command
Infect: -1 Tamiyo, -1 Nissa, -1 Emrakul, -1 Nahiri, - 1 Gavony Township, +2 Dispel, +1 Dromoka's Command, +1 Crumble to dust, +1 Ghost quarter
Ajani competes for Tamiyo's slot. I gave the nod to Tamiyo because drawing extra cards vs jund and grixis has been very useful. That slot was used specifically to help those matchups. I don't see chandra as a better option than either of those two.
Glad you like the list!
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
However right now I am struggling with two things:
1.- Lack of redundancy: There are too many planeswalkers and I need reliability instead of spread options. Which one do you think is our best planeswalker besides Nahiri?
2.- Struggling with aggro decks: Sometimes all in strategies gimme headaches (alas Naya Humans or Lil Zoo) What can we do to stop them?
Thanks for the responses.
I understand your concerns, but with this build I feel it has less dead draws by not having redundant planeswalkers. Dead draws is a real concern for the deck. I still maintain Gideon Jura is an all-star. Whether you curved with creatures or walkers, fog and tap your team plus hit you for six or repeat next turn is almost always game-ending. Either you hit them with big creatures for lethal over 1-2 turns or you get emrakul into play. Either way gideon did serious work.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Spellskite
4 Spell Queller
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Negate
2 Worship
3 Izzet Staticaster
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Blessed Alliance
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
The dork split leans towards BoP to help with red mana. (Wolf Run/Staticaster).
The Spell Quellers feel great in this list. You have them up on turn 2 most of the time, they obviously play well with CoCo, and they serve as blowout protection when you're going off.
The red splash also feels good. Wolf Run is a primo finisher, and great with Knight in general. The flex spots seem to be 1 Spellskite, 2 Selfless Spirit, 2 Scooze, 2 Pridemage. I love Selfless Spirit here. They blank sweepers, protect the combo, and act as a trick off of CoCo. I could see trying to find room for a 3rd in the 75 as we move forward.
Aslo what is Nissa's purpose in this deck? And is there anything as of now you would change wpgstevo.
P.S. - Love the depth info wpgstevo.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Nahiri has a few upsides - she is a flexible threat, card filter and answer. One of the reasons that I like her best is that she is a threat that avoids almost all removal, while being removal herself. She isn't as explosive but she is very consistent. Playing her also helps put cards in the yard (ad gives additional cardtypes) which makes Tarmogoyf good in the deck as opposed to coco variations which too often end up with a 1/2 or 2/3 goyf for too long. I think her main downside is that Emrakul is annoying to draw, and can be a non-bo with goyf and knight at times. You can also be more comfortable being less reliant on Path since you can exile with Nahiri.
In the Nahiri build, Nissa plays a couple roles. Firstly, Nissa is a good card to curve into Nahiri with because she can provide chumps every turn while threatening her own ult. Nissa's alt has happened surprisingly often as opponents scramble to deal with goyfs, knights and nahiris. Drawing 5+ cards from nissa has been gg every time. Additionally, she can make dork-heavy draws much better by doubling up with township to make the dorks real threats and provide a "going wide" angle.
Tamiyo and gideon are two cards that are probably still a bit speculative. They have won a few grindy games like with jund, esper mentor or abzan company. However, they get sided out quite frequently against the aggro decks. I think an argument could be made that they should be in the board. Ajani Vengeant could probably make a case for taking either of their slots.
TL;DR: If you want more consistent, individual card power and depth of play, go with the Nahiri build. If you want a more explosive gameplan that can run lots of creature bullets, go with Coco.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Can someone explain to me the rationale behind Blessed Alliance? The card seems fine, I'm just wondering what deck(s) you would run it against.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Blessed Alliance seems more like an anti-Nahiri card to me. The untap mode prevents Nahiri's exile and the sacrifice mode stops the Emrakul hit (though you could still be in trouble from the annihilator trigger). Could also do work against burn with the gaining four life and untapping for a surprise block.
Also, another classic, another Retreat top 8.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107128
I've been on the black splash plan for the last two weeks and I was considering putting in Grim Flayer to see how that'd work. Delirium doesn't seem that easy to get but seems like a solid card either way.
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EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
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