hello guys.So i have been facing gr ponza a LOT and i cant seem to beat it.How i am supposed to beat utopia sprawl into land destoy into bbe/bmoon/land destroy???
Anyone has any ideas on how to beat the deck?
It's a difficult scenario to win, my strategy against those decks always was holding counterspells and wait on the fetchs, unless i can slam a tasigur turn two.
the problem is that i moved away from tasigur to get jace...maybe thats wrong?
Right now is difficult to say, nobody knows what is the best build but it's an option. the best way to win against ponza, imo, is waitning on the fetches and play the counters at the right time.
Thanks. From what I have gathered from chatting on Twitch, Jace is a pretty middling card for most people. We are currently in a transitional period where people are trying Jace out in decks where it doesn't belong. I'm expecting the amount of play Jace sees to drop down in the next few weeks.
I have played with Young Pyromancer in the past too: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/541909#online
Back then the biggest reason was (IIRC) that I wanted a card that blocks the threats UR Kiln Fiend decks played, and also operated well under Blood Moon. I'm pretty sure that decklist wanted some Pushes in it, though.
I've always loved Young Pyromancer, but there need to be enough compelling reasons for me justify playing him, since one of the biggest strengths of this deck is that we are, for the most part, immune to cards like Bolt and Push. Since I went down to two Tasigurs I felt that I wanted another threat in the maindeck. Initially I cut one Mana Leak and added a Clique, as they both serve role as disruptive cards. I wasn't really feeling Clique, though, and missed my second Mana Leak a lot. So I went back to Young Peezy. I recently played against Thrun out of the sideboard of Abzan, UW control playing Gideon of Trials, and had to face a lot of Taking Turns -decks on MODO. The unbanning of Jace also made me want to have a threat that's good at attacking PWs. These small catalysts made me try him out again. I'm currently playing just one Peezy and went back to three Cryptics.
Having even just a single Young Pyromancer in the deck can solve some very real problems. If you can dodge or deal with their new Lilis, Peezy absolutely shreds DS decks to pieces, which I do still find very challenging MUs. In many MUs you might be able to stabilize at a low life total, but still have trouble turning the corner. Sometimes you can't afford to attack with your Tasigur, and Snapcaster might be too small. Young Pyromancer's ability to go wide allows you to start racing the opponent more actively. Pyromancer is also obviously strong with the Cryptic - Snap - Cryptic lock.
As for the overall composition of the deck, I'm probably not going to change anything in the near future. My list hasn't changed much at all in the last ~6 months. Going down to two Tasigurs was the biggest change in a long time, which is a result of the format's threats growing ever larger (pyromancer is definitely a nice complement to Tasigur in this sense). Three Cryptics, two Mana Leaks and two Remands is a counterspell core I've been very happy with. I'm also pretty settled on AV>Search, but I could make an essay on this topic alone so I'll leave it at that.
As for now I don't think the deck needs Jace. There might be some other decks or deck compositions where Jace does belong.
I think that in your version AV is better than search because the deck plays more a tempo/midrange gameplan than a control deck, after trying it seems more similar to a grixis delver list than a hard control deck like yasooka or corey lists.
One question: why the split between spirebluff canal and sulfur falls?
I made a list based on yours taking out the AV and adding 2 JTMS and 1 Bolt, I like the proactivity of the deck and having 6 difficult to deal threats sold me the deck. Next Saturday I will test it IRL, then I can share the list and how it went.
But in the end I will probably still won't be sure if I prefer the Search+Jace super synergetic version (+scour+field of ruin+tasi/snap) or this pressure version of the deck.
Well, I don't really agree with that definition. My list is very close to old Corey lists, especially if you consider I only tried two Pyros and am now back to three Cryptics.
It's true I value mana efficiency, which is most helpful against combo decks like storm and grishoalbrand. I try to be well-rounded against the entire modern metagame, and that's why I wasn't happy with Jace either.
I play 1 Sulfur Falls and 1 Spirebluff Canal because you would rather draw one of each than have two of either one, and because you don't want to have too many lands that ETB tapped after turn 3 (especially for Cryptic's sake), but you also want enough lands that can cast Serum Visions / Scour T1.
I didn't express myself correctly. What I meant is that adding young pyromancer to the deck allows to pressure the opponent in different ways, what in perspective makes jace more efficient and threatening.
I didn't express myself correctly. What I meant is that adding young pyromancer to the deck allows to pressure the opponent in different ways, what in perspective makes jace more efficient and threatening.
I think that in your version AV is better than search because the deck plays more a tempo/midrange gameplan than a control deck, after trying it seems more similar to a grixis delver list than a hard control deck like yasooka or corey lists.
I agree that Pyromancer and Jace go well together.
Hey everyone, new to Grixis Control but here is a recent weekend tournament report that I had. Finished 5-2 with about 70 people I think? This is my list:
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Field of Ruin
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Sideboard:
1 Countersquall
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Surgical Extraction
Round 1: Jund w/bloodbraid 2-1
Round 2: Burn 0-2
Round 3: Titanshift 2-1
Round 4 Mono Blue Tron 2-1
Round 5 UW Control 2-0
Round 6 Affinity 2-0
Round 7: Mono Green Tron 0-2 (made me fall out of top 8)
Overall the deck performed very smooth. Jace was not needed in most games to win and I only really won off of him in grindy match ups, or brainstorming once before he got killed to fill my hand with good spells. The burn match up I could have won but played a bit poor and my opponent was very skillful in burning me out in one turn. He also had insane hands both games. I didn't play perfect but through the match ups I was able to learn how to play vs them and adapt, resulting in many 2-1's. The only game that felt absolutely hopeless was my game vs tron. I field of ruined and counterspelled his stuff but he has natural tron into more tron lands into karn/ulamog both games. Felt like I had 0% chance to win and really demoralized me since it was the match that mattered. Oh well. I see this grixis list being in a pretty good spot in the meta having game against most decks. Maybe we just need to accept that we cant beat tron if they have the nuts and focus on beating the rest of the meta? Overall this is a very fun deck to play and I feel like I have finally found my favorite deck since I have switched between so many decks in my 2 years of playing!
Congrats on the 5-2. How are you liking the Vendillion Cliques MD and Pia and Kiraan SB? I am always going back and forth on their inclusions and am always interested in what other pilots think. Both cards have their uses but I have never been blown away by either. I find it especially hard to include either in the sideboard when I could just include a more hateful card.
Hey great question. I used to not understand why people liked Vendilion Clique but lately it has become one of my favorite cards. I got the deck list from a 5-0 on Goldfish but cut a Jace and a K-command to add 2 cliques mainly because I didn't have the other cards. This card has won me most of my games. It is a very good clock and gives me perfect information to play around. This card is mainly played on turn 3 end step of opponents turn to gives me a sneak peek turn before I play Jace to make sure the coast is clear. It also lets me know when I want to start fate sealing my opponent wIth Jace, giving me a 2 angle attack which really turns the pressure on.
Pia and Kiran I only boarded in vs Jund and Affinity and both games it shined as a game closer but I still don't have enough play with it to know how much I like it, or if the list even needs it. I can see how it is a very good target to k-command back from the yard in some situations.
I'm starting to get vendilion clique too, still couldn't take out tasigur, is bad against jace but still good against burn, jund, eldrazi... specially when you can play it on turn 2.
In reality i would love something that I could play instead of tasigur (in terms of additional threat), the RR on pia and kiran I find challenging to main board. what are you thoughts on the return of kalitas or keranos? maybe an aditional planeswalker (lili, the last hope)?
taking out tasigur probably makes room to put another logic knot.
An additional thought, I have been testing 1 spell snare and 1 spell pierce, the spell pierce has been really good, countering Liliana, thoughtseize, jace and blood moon, protecting jace too.
MOCS lists are up. Corey cut down to a single Jace.
Well well well. I can't wait for his reasoning behind this as he was one of the many that advocated against the unbanning. Not that I fault him or anything but I'm really curious to know how you'd go from 4 copy of Jaces to 1.
i know grixis lists can vary pretty wildly, but for the most part the color spread for jeskai and grixis at each point in the curve is pretty similar. playing 24ish lands, im hard pressed to find room for 1 or 2 colorless lands.
is it just accepting the chance of color screw with hopes that the power of FoR will offset the loss in percentages over a large enough number of games? seems like it would push you to have to yolo shock/fetch more often, not to mention getting FoRs in your opener and the hand cant function.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
MOCS lists are up. Corey cut down to a single Jace.
Well well well. I can't wait for his reasoning behind this as he was one of the many that advocated against the unbanning. Not that I fault him or anything but I'm really curious to know how you'd go from 4 copy of Jaces to 1.
His results at the MOCS are also less than staggering. I think he will claim, and probably rightly so, that the list is not optimized yet
i know grixis lists can vary pretty wildly, but for the most part the color spread for jeskai and grixis at each point in the curve is pretty similar. playing 24ish lands, im hard pressed to find room for 1 or 2 colorless lands.
is it just accepting the chance of color screw with hopes that the power of FoR will offset the loss in percentages over a large enough number of games? seems like it would push you to have to yolo shock/fetch more often, not to mention getting FoRs in your opener and the hand cant function.
I don't think Field makes sense as a 4-off in Grixis - it is too punishing for our own mana requirements. Corey started the trend, but his lists are, to my mind, always very extreme.
The fact Grixis has access to Fulminator Mage/Kommand as LD means Field is less important to Grixis than to Jeskai and not the opposite.
i know grixis lists can vary pretty wildly, but for the most part the color spread for jeskai and grixis at each point in the curve is pretty similar. playing 24ish lands, im hard pressed to find room for 1 or 2 colorless lands.
is it just accepting the chance of color screw with hopes that the power of FoR will offset the loss in percentages over a large enough number of games? seems like it would push you to have to yolo shock/fetch more often, not to mention getting FoRs in your opener and the hand cant function.
I don't think Field makes sense as a 4-off in Grixis - it is too punishing for our own mana requirements. Corey started the trend, but his lists are, to my mind, always very extreme.
The fact Grixis has access to Fulminator Mage/Kommand as LD means Field is less important to Grixis than to Jeskai and not the opposite.
yeah the line of field activation -> get swamp -> revolted fatal push was something i hadnt considered.
even still. i was eyeballing grixis lists and trying to see some play pattern that was different enough from jeskai to warrant FoR. nothing made much sense. color requirements going up the curve are pretty similar to jeskai. in fact i think its arguable that colors are actually tighter for grixis than jeskai.
there is other stuff of course, but those are sort of the basics.
i agree that burkhart's lists are sometimes squint-worthy. he is a pioneer of the grixis archetype, and i consider him one of the people to bring 4-of cryptic tech back as a modern mainstay. before then lists were cutting down on cryptics.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Is this likely to be the way forward for grixis control? I feel it folds pretty hard to tron unless it draws the land hate, but it's certainly an interesting take.
It's a sorcery speed control deck.
Starting from the mana base, I don't really like the 4 field of ruin, it can be too much colorless mana for the early turns.
Not sure about how good dire fleet daredevil is, it feels more like a meta call reusing jund spells. maybe a couple of pyromancers for the future is better.
AV or discard seems really good with the planeswalkers as finishers, the search for azcanta looks good also to "tutor" the planeswalker or kolaghan's command.
I don't like negate in the main as the only counter
It's a difficult scenario to win, my strategy against those decks always was holding counterspells and wait on the fetchs, unless i can slam a tasigur turn two.
Right now is difficult to say, nobody knows what is the best build but it's an option. the best way to win against ponza, imo, is waitning on the fetches and play the counters at the right time.
Well, I don't really agree with that definition. My list is very close to old Corey lists, especially if you consider I only tried two Pyros and am now back to three Cryptics.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/420684#online
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/576421#online
It's true I value mana efficiency, which is most helpful against combo decks like storm and grishoalbrand. I try to be well-rounded against the entire modern metagame, and that's why I wasn't happy with Jace either.
I play 1 Sulfur Falls and 1 Spirebluff Canal because you would rather draw one of each than have two of either one, and because you don't want to have too many lands that ETB tapped after turn 3 (especially for Cryptic's sake), but you also want enough lands that can cast Serum Visions / Scour T1.
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the lands make sense what you says.
I'm replying to this:
I agree that Pyromancer and Jace go well together.
Youtube Channel
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion clique
1 Dreadbore
1 Countersquall
4 Cryptic Command
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
1 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Field of Ruin
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Sideboard:
1 Countersquall
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Surgical Extraction
Round 1: Jund w/bloodbraid 2-1
Round 2: Burn 0-2
Round 3: Titanshift 2-1
Round 4 Mono Blue Tron 2-1
Round 5 UW Control 2-0
Round 6 Affinity 2-0
Round 7: Mono Green Tron 0-2 (made me fall out of top 8)
Overall the deck performed very smooth. Jace was not needed in most games to win and I only really won off of him in grindy match ups, or brainstorming once before he got killed to fill my hand with good spells. The burn match up I could have won but played a bit poor and my opponent was very skillful in burning me out in one turn. He also had insane hands both games. I didn't play perfect but through the match ups I was able to learn how to play vs them and adapt, resulting in many 2-1's. The only game that felt absolutely hopeless was my game vs tron. I field of ruined and counterspelled his stuff but he has natural tron into more tron lands into karn/ulamog both games. Felt like I had 0% chance to win and really demoralized me since it was the match that mattered. Oh well. I see this grixis list being in a pretty good spot in the meta having game against most decks. Maybe we just need to accept that we cant beat tron if they have the nuts and focus on beating the rest of the meta? Overall this is a very fun deck to play and I feel like I have finally found my favorite deck since I have switched between so many decks in my 2 years of playing!
* Grixis Control A!
* Grixis Control B!
Pia and Kiran I only boarded in vs Jund and Affinity and both games it shined as a game closer but I still don't have enough play with it to know how much I like it, or if the list even needs it. I can see how it is a very good target to k-command back from the yard in some situations.
In reality i would love something that I could play instead of tasigur (in terms of additional threat), the RR on pia and kiran I find challenging to main board. what are you thoughts on the return of kalitas or keranos? maybe an aditional planeswalker (lili, the last hope)?
taking out tasigur probably makes room to put another logic knot.
An additional thought, I have been testing 1 spell snare and 1 spell pierce, the spell pierce has been really good, countering Liliana, thoughtseize, jace and blood moon, protecting jace too.
MOCS lists are up. Corey cut down to a single Jace.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
Well well well. I can't wait for his reasoning behind this as he was one of the many that advocated against the unbanning. Not that I fault him or anything but I'm really curious to know how you'd go from 4 copy of Jaces to 1.
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
how/why are grixis lists playing 4xField of Ruin?
i know grixis lists can vary pretty wildly, but for the most part the color spread for jeskai and grixis at each point in the curve is pretty similar. playing 24ish lands, im hard pressed to find room for 1 or 2 colorless lands.
is it just accepting the chance of color screw with hopes that the power of FoR will offset the loss in percentages over a large enough number of games? seems like it would push you to have to yolo shock/fetch more often, not to mention getting FoRs in your opener and the hand cant function.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I don't think Field makes sense as a 4-off in Grixis - it is too punishing for our own mana requirements. Corey started the trend, but his lists are, to my mind, always very extreme.
The fact Grixis has access to Fulminator Mage/Kommand as LD means Field is less important to Grixis than to Jeskai and not the opposite.
Youtube Channel
yeah the line of field activation -> get swamp -> revolted fatal push was something i hadnt considered.
even still. i was eyeballing grixis lists and trying to see some play pattern that was different enough from jeskai to warrant FoR. nothing made much sense. color requirements going up the curve are pretty similar to jeskai. in fact i think its arguable that colors are actually tighter for grixis than jeskai.
discard, bolts, cantrips, push -> terminate, dreadbore, countersquall/logic knot, azcanta -> k-command, liliana -> jace, pia, cryptic command, damnation
vs
bolts, path, cantrips -> helix, logic knot/(other 2cmc counters), azcanta -> electrolyze -> verdict, jace, cryptic
there is other stuff of course, but those are sort of the basics.
i agree that burkhart's lists are sometimes squint-worthy. he is a pioneer of the grixis archetype, and i consider him one of the people to bring 4-of cryptic tech back as a modern mainstay. before then lists were cutting down on cryptics.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Is this likely to be the way forward for grixis control? I feel it folds pretty hard to tron unless it draws the land hate, but it's certainly an interesting take.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/972246#paper
It's a sorcery speed control deck.
Starting from the mana base, I don't really like the 4 field of ruin, it can be too much colorless mana for the early turns.
Not sure about how good dire fleet daredevil is, it feels more like a meta call reusing jund spells. maybe a couple of pyromancers for the future is better.
AV or discard seems really good with the planeswalkers as finishers, the search for azcanta looks good also to "tutor" the planeswalker or kolaghan's command.
I don't like negate in the main as the only counter
Long time no see Tiemuuu, congrats!
I checked out your list and had to say something:
Take out 2 creeping tar pits and 2 pyromancers, put in 4 delvers...
and thats exactly what I am playing right now. Love your list! I'm still addicted to 3/2 fliers tho.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
sir. please calm down and step away from the ledge. you have so much more to live for
seriously though delver is a trap in modern. if you want to play a delver-esque deck play grixis death shadow.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Edit: 21 Lands isn't that low, 22 was the accepted standard until 1 month ago.
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