Hi everyone! I have a technical question, whats the mathematical way to calculate if a mana base is able to play x double cost? Lets say i have this mana base
scalding
4 polluted
2 bloodstained mire
1 steam vents
2 watery grave
1 blood crypt
2 island
1 mountain
1 swamp
2 darkslick shore
Do you think 2 double black and 2 double blue is too greedy in the main? And then, adding 1 double red, or a third double black from the sideboard..?
A minor note on this question for the modern format. This question also comes with the follow-up question of "how much are you willing to fetch+shock yourself" as the more you're comfortable with that the lower the amount goes. BB and UU can be easily done if you don't mind starting at 11 life when you need them on curve.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
It's definitely worth checking out for sure. I just need to find a spot... hmmm, perhaps I'll swap a Jace out for her. I'll be sure to let you guy know how she does. Have the rest of the weekend off of work, so I'll play a couple leagues today and see how it goes!
EDIT: Actually, I think I will try her out in the spot of the Scarab God. As much as I like him and the synergy he has with the rest of the deck, trying to make him stick in a format with Path to Exile is a little rough. The two Jace's are too valuable to the deck. I'll get on it though!
Its only been 4 days but I'm excited to know if you got to resolve any majesties over the weekend. Did she work out?
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2:2 seems alright, is there a story behind how you arrived at this number?
Mana Leak is just generally a bad card. Remand can be wanting in certain MUs and proved itself to be quite good against the UW resurgence -- they have quite clunky spells. I like Remand most against ETron and Valakut.
Unfortunately, I played 1 creature matchup this past weekend and the rest were combo and control -- which I was only suited "ok" for.
Went 2-3.
2-0 Ascension Storm. W.
0-2 UW control. L.
0-2 UR storm. L.
2-1. Breachtitan. W.
1-2. Abzan. L.
UW was packed for the MU with MD Dispel. I drew all my basics in game two as he draw a majority of his LD. So all his GQs and Field of Ruins were Strip Mines. I conceded with two lands on the battlefield.
UR Storm I missed land drops and moved to discard on turn 4 both games. He killed my on turn 6 or 7 as he hit all his with double remand back up.
Breachtitan is easy peasy. So many clunky spells on their end.
Abzan, apparently, aggressively has slots for midrange/control postboard, as I learned. I got game one. Lost games two and three to a variety of Gideons, Trackers, Souls, both Lilianas, and piles of Siege Rhinos.
My assumption is that my day would've been easier if I had been paired against the creature decks that were to the left and right of me. Unfortunately, I was not.
2:2 seems alright, is there a story behind how you arrived at this number?
Mana Leak is just generally a bad card. Remand can be wanting in certain MUs and proved itself to be quite good against the UW resurgence -- they have quite clunky spells. I like Remand most against ETron and Valakut.
Unfortunately, I played 1 creature matchup this past weekend and the rest were combo and control -- which I was only suited "ok" for.
Went 2-3.
2-0 Ascension Storm. W.
0-2 UW control. L.
0-2 UR storm. L.
2-1. Breachtitan. W.
1-2. Abzan. L.
UW was packed for the MU with MD Dispel. I drew all my basics in game two as he draw a majority of his LD. So all his GQs and Field of Ruins were Strip Mines. I conceded with two lands on the battlefield.
UR Storm I missed land drops and moved to discard on turn 4 both games. He killed my on turn 6 or 7 as he hit all his with double remand back up.
Breachtitan is easy peasy. So many clunky spells on their end.
Abzan, apparently, aggressively has slots for midrange/control postboard, as I learned. I got game one. Lost games two and three to a variety of Gideons, Trackers, Souls, both Lilianas, and piles of Siege Rhinos.
My assumption is that my day would've been easier if I had been paired against the creature decks that were to the left and right of me. Unfortunately, I was not.
It sounds more like bad draws than bad matchups per se, I think we're even-ish against what you met. Well, except for UW which is just annoying. I have a UW in my playgroup and its annoying as hell to play against it. Losing feels bad but losing slowly is worse.
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It sounds more like bad draws than bad matchups per se, I think we're even-ish against what you met. Well, except for UW which is just annoying. I have a UW in my playgroup and its annoying as hell to play against it. Losing feels bad but losing slowly is worse.
I'm not certain.
Abzan, while they can flood, if they draw their anti-shadow tech is very difficult. I was impressed with the amount of threats post-board. Just about every spell was a heavy-hitter. Game 3, I let a souls resolve on the play, I untapped and played a Jace, assuming I'd lock him out. He untapped and slammed a Gideon, Ally -- which, of all cards he could've had, was worst case scenario. Lilly? I can beat that. Another Souls? Sure. Double Tarmogoyf? Definitely. Siege Rhino? Lol.
Gideon? Now that's a threat.
Storm, I've found, is 50/50 -- maybe slightly in our favor. You'd think we'd be good but the deck is very robust against disruption if it's occurring on their turn.
UW, I agree, is a bit of a disaster. While I think Search for Azcanta is not very good in a lot of MUs, if it resolves in the blue mirror (which it did both games) it's pretty much a lock.
Rejection is solid for sure, there's no doubt about that. I play with it in multiple decks. Im not opposed to it at all. Just didn't know where I'd put it. that being said, the sideboard will change per each individual meta im playing in. I've never had a "set" sideboard for any deck I've played. I would like to see Chapin's list as well.
Given you've built the shell for it, will you be a champ and test Liliana, Death's Majesty? Given the things she could bring back and her synergy with the deck overall, I believe she's a very strong wincon for your set up.
I'm glad someone else was thinking the same as me. I did at one point have a version of Grix Control with bombs to be recurred with Liliana, Death's Majesty. I've since scrapped the idea so I don't know the list anymore. I know I wasn't running any delve creatures and instead ran Kalitas, Grave Titan and Cryptic Serpent and some number of Liliana, The Last Hope.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I dislike remand in this deck honestly since were a control deck not a tempo deck. I usually use 1-2 countersquall, 1-2 spellsnare, 3-4 cryptic commands, and a single logic knot for my main board with rare occasion of a 2 of mana leak depending on who's playing and my mood. My opinion is i want to deal with whatever I target via removal or counter only once in this deck. With my sb having some mix of dispel, invasive surgery, disdainful stroke, counterflux, and negates depending who's playing that night. My average seems to be 7-10 counters mainboard and 1-2 counters sideboard.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I dislike remand in this deck honestly since were a control deck not a tempo deck. I usually use 1-2 countersquall, 1-2 spellsnare, 3-4 cryptic commands, and a single logic knot for my main board with rare occasion of a 2 of mana leak depending on who's playing and my mood. My opinion is i want to deal with whatever I target via removal or counter only once in this deck. With my sb having some mix of dispel, invasive surgery, disdainful stroke, counterflux, and negates depending who's playing that night. My average seems to be 7-10 counters mainboard and 1-2 counters sideboard.
I don't see remand as a tempo play in this deck, for us its kind of like a miniature time walk. Remanding a T2 play takes us to 3 mana. Now the opponent's curve is messed up; they can either put off their T2 play and try to resolve something else that we may have an answer for, or they can retry their T2 play and we can now Snap-Snare. Technically speaking Remand is at its best under the same circumstances in both Delver and Control, although in spirit Delver is buying time for more beats, while Control is buying time to set up Cryptic Command, Snap-Kommand, move closer to AV resolution. Remand certainly has value in the deck. And it shines particularly bright when you find yourself in a counterspell war.
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I dislike remand in this deck honestly since were a control deck not a tempo deck. I usually use 1-2 countersquall, 1-2 spellsnare, 3-4 cryptic commands, and a single logic knot for my main board with rare occasion of a 2 of mana leak depending on who's playing and my mood. My opinion is i want to deal with whatever I target via removal or counter only once in this deck. With my sb having some mix of dispel, invasive surgery, disdainful stroke, counterflux, and negates depending who's playing that night. My average seems to be 7-10 counters mainboard and 1-2 counters sideboard.
I don't see remand as a tempo play in this deck, for us its kind of like a miniature time walk. Remanding a T2 play takes us to 3 mana. Now the opponent's curve is messed up; they can either put off their T2 play and try to resolve something else that we may have an answer for, or they can retry their T2 play and we can now Snap-Snare. Technically speaking Remand is at its best under the same circumstances in both Delver and Control, although in spirit Delver is buying time for more beats, while Control is buying time to set up Cryptic Command, Snap-Kommand, move closer to AV resolution. Remand certainly has value in the deck. And it shines particularly bright when you find yourself in a counterspell war.
How do you honestly not see it as a tempo play? It is a catch all counterspell that places it in the opponents hand with the hope and intentions we will have a answer for it the next time they cast it. As for counter wars we have a abundance of counters for that like dispel, spellsnare, and countersquall which are significantly better in counter wars. I come from playing remand in decks like delver and twin and i can honestly say you are highlighting all the positive things about remand, but this deck honestly needs a real counter that is permanent not a temporary solution to a problem. You state that a turn 2 play is a great remand target since you can time walk and next turn you spellsnare it. Well why not spellsnare the card originally and not have to worry about it again. Honestly I feel grixis is a grind them out of resource deck until we resolve things that just get nuts like snapcaster chains and just put us over the top. This deck likes to 1 for 1 people until it can 2 for 1 people with our powerful lategame. I feel our deck is somewhere between the philosophy of jund's 1 for 1 until it can 2 for 1 people and espers need to have permanent solutions to every problem. Please don't misinterpret and think I'm saying our deck is like either I'm just saying it seems to take from those ideologies.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
If remand said "Counter target spell, and put it back into the controller's hand" you would be pretty much absolutely right.
But because it ALSO says "Draw a card", that's where things get interesting. Tempo to me, is trading cards for time. You don't trade any cards for time when you remand a turn 2 play. You just get that turn off, one more draw step, lay one more land. On turn 2, having their Tarmogoyf remanded is basically getting timewalked. The next combat step is useless. Basically all they were good for this turn was a draw step. And you didn't have to spend a card on it.
I know right off the bat that we're not going to agree on what a tempo play is, because 2 magic players agreeing on a definition of tempo happens about as often as people agree on gun control or birth control - they either agree or they don't. So let's skip this part and just talk pros and cons.
RE: This deck needs a real counter/answer
And it does have them. However, this deck isn't delver, it wants to do things like snap-cryptic, snap-kommand, play a tasigur and have cryptic mana up. Counter 2 spells between 2 untap phases. These things require mana, and in our deck, mana needs time to set up at the rate of 1 land per turn. Remand is the tool that gets us there. So do we need answers that are permanent? Sure. Do you have counterspell in modern? No. So at 2 cmc, you have mana leaks which basically turn to crud over time, in a deck that goes long. A remand on the other hand offers to be a timewalk early, or at the very least a cantrip.
RE: Why not spell snare the card originally
Well there are a couple reasons this may happen or you may not be able to:
1. Spell snare was 2 cards down, and your next remand and draw step got you there. Because you're not playing 4 spell snares.
2. As mentioned, you want to throw the opponent off their curve and either cast everything 1 turn late, or skip their turn 2 play for later.
RE: This deck like to 1-for-1 until it can 2-for-1
Yes, you are absolutely correct and I agree. I just don't think there is anything wrong with a 0-for-0 as well. Which is what remand is. See my first 2 sentences again. You know the magical part about remand which you didn't mention? In the lategame against U control, Remand can be a up to a 0-for-2: You cast a threat, the opponent tries to cryptic command counter and draw - you remand your threat. The same can apply to any spell you want to resolve. You cast - they counter - you leave them hanging.
In the end, a lot of the things you're saying is not wrong, we just disagree on how Remand can (or cannot) play a role in Grixis control. Remand may not seem like it can "take things out", but it can take out counterspells, and it provides velocity in a U control deck, in a format with narrow answers. If counterspell were here I probably wouldn't play remand. But if the alternative is mana leak, I'll consider both options.
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Remand is reasonable because of the shape shifter role of this deck.
I've long thought of this deck very much like a Geist deck, with 1 mana threats, and no built in protection.
Often, making your opponent expend mana that is blanked is the most important part of killing your opponent. Often, your opponent will die with cards in their hand, not something that happens often in a traditional control deck, which indicates that a remand plan is reasonable.
Card advangtage is very important but mana advantage, which Remand actually is fighting over in most cases, is just as important.
If remand said "Counter target spell, and put it back into the controller's hand" you would be pretty much absolutely right.
But because it ALSO says "Draw a card", that's where things get interesting. Tempo to me, is trading cards for time. You don't trade any cards for time when you remand a turn 2 play. You just get that turn off, one more draw step, lay one more land. On turn 2, having their Tarmogoyf remanded is basically getting timewalked. The next combat step is useless. Basically all they were good for this turn was a draw step. And you didn't have to spend a card on it.
I know right off the bat that we're not going to agree on what a tempo play is, because 2 magic players agreeing on a definition of tempo happens about as often as people agree on gun control or birth control - they either agree or they don't. So let's skip this part and just talk pros and cons.
RE: This deck needs a real counter/answer
And it does have them. However, this deck isn't delver, it wants to do things like snap-cryptic, snap-kommand, play a tasigur and have cryptic mana up. Counter 2 spells between 2 untap phases. These things require mana, and in our deck, mana needs time to set up at the rate of 1 land per turn. Remand is the tool that gets us there. So do we need answers that are permanent? Sure. Do you have counterspell in modern? No. So at 2 cmc, you have mana leaks which basically turn to crud over time, in a deck that goes long. A remand on the other hand offers to be a timewalk early, or at the very least a cantrip.
RE: Why not spell snare the card originally
Well there are a couple reasons this may happen or you may not be able to:
1. Spell snare was 2 cards down, and your next remand and draw step got you there. Because you're not playing 4 spell snares.
2. As mentioned, you want to throw the opponent off their curve and either cast everything 1 turn late, or skip their turn 2 play for later.
RE: This deck like to 1-for-1 until it can 2-for-1
Yes, you are absolutely correct and I agree. I just don't think there is anything wrong with a 0-for-0 as well. Which is what remand is. See my first 2 sentences again. You know the magical part about remand which you didn't mention? In the lategame against U control, Remand can be a up to a 0-for-2: You cast a threat, the opponent tries to cryptic command counter and draw - you remand your threat. The same can apply to any spell you want to resolve. You cast - they counter - you leave them hanging.
In the end, a lot of the things you're saying is not wrong, we just disagree on how Remand can (or cannot) play a role in Grixis control. Remand may not seem like it can "take things out", but it can take out counterspells, and it provides velocity in a U control deck, in a format with narrow answers. If counterspell were here I probably wouldn't play remand. But if the alternative is mana leak, I'll consider both options.
I'm not sure if my definition is correct, but I thought of tempo as being responding things with lower resources. Like, spell snare (1 mana for 2), bolt and fatal push on higher cost creatures, daze (the best example IMO). I see delver (at least the legacy versions) being tempo for playing 4 spells until turn 2, like a T1 delver, T2 Delver+bolt and on the opp turn daze on something. Like, you answered their spells and played 2 threats to pressure your opponent. I think spell snare, bolt, spell pierce, are all good cards. And they're not trading cards for time, but cards for cards with lower resources.
Despite what I just said, I think remand is kind of a tempo play, because even though you're usually not spending less resources, you are usually exchanging 2 mana for some time (except for remand flashback, or remand your own spell in response to counter, where you really get card advantage).
Going back to the topic: I'm playing grixis delver on modern every now and then, and I've played against some grixis control lists that sounded really nice. They were playing ancestral vision, search for azcanta, etc. Most lists I see around here don't play vision or search. Is it not good in the meta? Is modern too aggro to play such cards?
Even though the format is not "aggro" in the sense that it had during the dredge/infect era, every deck is doing something super brutal each turn, be it tutoring up Tron lands, plays 7/7s for 1, casting Gifts Ungiven, etc... while you're taking a free turn to suspend ancestral.(In a format like Legacy for example, having access to free permission spells means you're fine spending your entire turn casting a ponder).
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It's definitely worth checking out for sure. I just need to find a spot... hmmm, perhaps I'll swap a Jace out for her. I'll be sure to let you guy know how she does. Have the rest of the weekend off of work, so I'll play a couple leagues today and see how it goes!
EDIT: Actually, I think I will try her out in the spot of the Scarab God. As much as I like him and the synergy he has with the rest of the deck, trying to make him stick in a format with Path to Exile is a little rough. The two Jace's are too valuable to the deck. I'll get on it though!
Its only been 4 days but I'm excited to know if you got to resolve any majesties over the weekend. Did she work out?
Oh man, my apologies.. I completely spaced on replying the thread. She did well. She helped in the grindy matches for sure, giving a consistent threat (the 2/2 zombie), and filling the yard for all of the other graveyard interactions. The issue with her is that the situations in which she excels were situations where I already felt like I already had an advantage. That being said I do feel like she isn't the worst option for the deck. To give a more definitive opinion on her I'll need to play with her a tad more. I'll keep on testing and let you know though!
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It's definitely worth checking out for sure. I just need to find a spot... hmmm, perhaps I'll swap a Jace out for her. I'll be sure to let you guy know how she does. Have the rest of the weekend off of work, so I'll play a couple leagues today and see how it goes!
EDIT: Actually, I think I will try her out in the spot of the Scarab God. As much as I like him and the synergy he has with the rest of the deck, trying to make him stick in a format with Path to Exile is a little rough. The two Jace's are too valuable to the deck. I'll get on it though!
Its only been 4 days but I'm excited to know if you got to resolve any majesties over the weekend. Did she work out?
Oh man, my apologies.. I completely spaced on replying the thread. She did well. She helped in the grindy matches for sure, giving a consistent threat (the 2/2 zombie), and filling the yard for all of the other graveyard interactions. The issue with her is that the situations in which she excels were situations where I already felt like I already had an advantage. That being said I do feel like she isn't the worst option for the deck. To give a more definitive opinion on her I'll need to play with her a tad more. I'll keep on testing and let you know though!
*Excitement Intensifies*
Now I want to make the deck. *removes delvers and adds manlands/bombs*
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Here's the list Burkhart played on stream earlier this week, in case you missed it.
The deck follows the same philosophy as the ancestral vision iteration of the deck. You're a Jund-esque deck trying to trade even on resources and up on mana to reach a lategame where you can pick up the slack with Search for Azcanta, Cryptic and K-Command. You trade the mana efficiency of Ancestral Vision for the card selection of Search for Azcanta, even though it's more easily disruptable. Corey mentioned he didn't want to play Delve cards because he didn't want to tax his graveyard when he's trying to flip Search. Thus, the 2 Push 4 Bolt split is there to help close out games with Burn damage.
In the fun-off section you have Tribute to Hunger. He mentioned the games go on for so long the life gain is relevant, which in my experience it turns out to be... true. It just hurts, since the card is kind of the epitome of inefficiency.
He actually switched up the sideboard before he started playing a league, so I don't have much to say about it. The Death's Shadow in the sideboard do seem sound however, since as a control deck you want to be able to diversify your threats post-sideboard. If not Death's Shadow, I'd play something like Vendilion Clique instead.
It's definitely worth checking out for sure. I just need to find a spot... hmmm, perhaps I'll swap a Jace out for her. I'll be sure to let you guy know how she does. Have the rest of the weekend off of work, so I'll play a couple leagues today and see how it goes!
EDIT: Actually, I think I will try her out in the spot of the Scarab God. As much as I like him and the synergy he has with the rest of the deck, trying to make him stick in a format with Path to Exile is a little rough. The two Jace's are too valuable to the deck. I'll get on it though!
Its only been 4 days but I'm excited to know if you got to resolve any majesties over the weekend. Did she work out?
Oh man, my apologies.. I completely spaced on replying the thread. She did well. She helped in the grindy matches for sure, giving a consistent threat (the 2/2 zombie), and filling the yard for all of the other graveyard interactions. The issue with her is that the situations in which she excels were situations where I already felt like I already had an advantage. That being said I do feel like she isn't the worst option for the deck. To give a more definitive opinion on her I'll need to play with her a tad more. I'll keep on testing and let you know though!
*Excitement Intensifies*
Now I want to make the deck. *removes delvers and adds manlands/bombs*
So last night my testing group and I got together to jam some games. The deck is actually really solid. We tested the initial version without the Death's Majesty. If there's one thing that was confirmed last night, it's that Scarab God is insane. Even with no cards in hand, being able to reanimate a Snapcaster or Sheoldred to get value out of is absurd, and the fact that any deck not playing Path can't ATUALLY get rid of him is huge. I musty say, the deck was initially built to have something fun with, but its actually got some legs!
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4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Sorceries (4)
4 Serum Visions
Instants (27)
3 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Opt
3 Spell Snare
3 Logic Knot
2 Electrolyze
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Cyptic Command
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Dispel
2 Countersquall
1 Negate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
There's a lot of UW control in my meta, as well as a decent amount of death's shadow. The amount of tron varies on the day
A minor note on this question for the modern format. This question also comes with the follow-up question of "how much are you willing to fetch+shock yourself" as the more you're comfortable with that the lower the amount goes. BB and UU can be easily done if you don't mind starting at 11 life when you need them on curve.
2:2 seems alright, is there a story behind how you arrived at this number?
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Its only been 4 days but I'm excited to know if you got to resolve any majesties over the weekend. Did she work out?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Mana Leak is just generally a bad card. Remand can be wanting in certain MUs and proved itself to be quite good against the UW resurgence -- they have quite clunky spells. I like Remand most against ETron and Valakut.
Unfortunately, I played 1 creature matchup this past weekend and the rest were combo and control -- which I was only suited "ok" for.
Went 2-3.
2-0 Ascension Storm. W.
0-2 UW control. L.
0-2 UR storm. L.
2-1. Breachtitan. W.
1-2. Abzan. L.
UW was packed for the MU with MD Dispel. I drew all my basics in game two as he draw a majority of his LD. So all his GQs and Field of Ruins were Strip Mines. I conceded with two lands on the battlefield.
UR Storm I missed land drops and moved to discard on turn 4 both games. He killed my on turn 6 or 7 as he hit all his with double remand back up.
Breachtitan is easy peasy. So many clunky spells on their end.
Abzan, apparently, aggressively has slots for midrange/control postboard, as I learned. I got game one. Lost games two and three to a variety of Gideons, Trackers, Souls, both Lilianas, and piles of Siege Rhinos.
My assumption is that my day would've been easier if I had been paired against the creature decks that were to the left and right of me. Unfortunately, I was not.
It sounds more like bad draws than bad matchups per se, I think we're even-ish against what you met. Well, except for UW which is just annoying. I have a UW in my playgroup and its annoying as hell to play against it. Losing feels bad but losing slowly is worse.
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I'm not certain.
Abzan, while they can flood, if they draw their anti-shadow tech is very difficult. I was impressed with the amount of threats post-board. Just about every spell was a heavy-hitter. Game 3, I let a souls resolve on the play, I untapped and played a Jace, assuming I'd lock him out. He untapped and slammed a Gideon, Ally -- which, of all cards he could've had, was worst case scenario. Lilly? I can beat that. Another Souls? Sure. Double Tarmogoyf? Definitely. Siege Rhino? Lol.
Gideon? Now that's a threat.
Storm, I've found, is 50/50 -- maybe slightly in our favor. You'd think we'd be good but the deck is very robust against disruption if it's occurring on their turn.
UW, I agree, is a bit of a disaster. While I think Search for Azcanta is not very good in a lot of MUs, if it resolves in the blue mirror (which it did both games) it's pretty much a lock.
I'm glad someone else was thinking the same as me. I did at one point have a version of Grix Control with bombs to be recurred with Liliana, Death's Majesty. I've since scrapped the idea so I don't know the list anymore. I know I wasn't running any delve creatures and instead ran Kalitas, Grave Titan and Cryptic Serpent and some number of Liliana, The Last Hope.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I don't see remand as a tempo play in this deck, for us its kind of like a miniature time walk. Remanding a T2 play takes us to 3 mana. Now the opponent's curve is messed up; they can either put off their T2 play and try to resolve something else that we may have an answer for, or they can retry their T2 play and we can now Snap-Snare. Technically speaking Remand is at its best under the same circumstances in both Delver and Control, although in spirit Delver is buying time for more beats, while Control is buying time to set up Cryptic Command, Snap-Kommand, move closer to AV resolution. Remand certainly has value in the deck. And it shines particularly bright when you find yourself in a counterspell war.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
How do you honestly not see it as a tempo play? It is a catch all counterspell that places it in the opponents hand with the hope and intentions we will have a answer for it the next time they cast it. As for counter wars we have a abundance of counters for that like dispel, spellsnare, and countersquall which are significantly better in counter wars. I come from playing remand in decks like delver and twin and i can honestly say you are highlighting all the positive things about remand, but this deck honestly needs a real counter that is permanent not a temporary solution to a problem. You state that a turn 2 play is a great remand target since you can time walk and next turn you spellsnare it. Well why not spellsnare the card originally and not have to worry about it again. Honestly I feel grixis is a grind them out of resource deck until we resolve things that just get nuts like snapcaster chains and just put us over the top. This deck likes to 1 for 1 people until it can 2 for 1 people with our powerful lategame. I feel our deck is somewhere between the philosophy of jund's 1 for 1 until it can 2 for 1 people and espers need to have permanent solutions to every problem. Please don't misinterpret and think I'm saying our deck is like either I'm just saying it seems to take from those ideologies.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
But because it ALSO says "Draw a card", that's where things get interesting. Tempo to me, is trading cards for time. You don't trade any cards for time when you remand a turn 2 play. You just get that turn off, one more draw step, lay one more land. On turn 2, having their Tarmogoyf remanded is basically getting timewalked. The next combat step is useless. Basically all they were good for this turn was a draw step. And you didn't have to spend a card on it.
I know right off the bat that we're not going to agree on what a tempo play is, because 2 magic players agreeing on a definition of tempo happens about as often as people agree on gun control or birth control - they either agree or they don't. So let's skip this part and just talk pros and cons.
RE: This deck needs a real counter/answer
And it does have them. However, this deck isn't delver, it wants to do things like snap-cryptic, snap-kommand, play a tasigur and have cryptic mana up. Counter 2 spells between 2 untap phases. These things require mana, and in our deck, mana needs time to set up at the rate of 1 land per turn. Remand is the tool that gets us there. So do we need answers that are permanent? Sure. Do you have counterspell in modern? No. So at 2 cmc, you have mana leaks which basically turn to crud over time, in a deck that goes long. A remand on the other hand offers to be a timewalk early, or at the very least a cantrip.
RE: Why not spell snare the card originally
Well there are a couple reasons this may happen or you may not be able to:
1. Spell snare was 2 cards down, and your next remand and draw step got you there. Because you're not playing 4 spell snares.
2. As mentioned, you want to throw the opponent off their curve and either cast everything 1 turn late, or skip their turn 2 play for later.
RE: This deck like to 1-for-1 until it can 2-for-1
Yes, you are absolutely correct and I agree. I just don't think there is anything wrong with a 0-for-0 as well. Which is what remand is. See my first 2 sentences again. You know the magical part about remand which you didn't mention? In the lategame against U control, Remand can be a up to a 0-for-2: You cast a threat, the opponent tries to cryptic command counter and draw - you remand your threat. The same can apply to any spell you want to resolve. You cast - they counter - you leave them hanging.
In the end, a lot of the things you're saying is not wrong, we just disagree on how Remand can (or cannot) play a role in Grixis control. Remand may not seem like it can "take things out", but it can take out counterspells, and it provides velocity in a U control deck, in a format with narrow answers. If counterspell were here I probably wouldn't play remand. But if the alternative is mana leak, I'll consider both options.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I've long thought of this deck very much like a Geist deck, with 1 mana threats, and no built in protection.
Often, making your opponent expend mana that is blanked is the most important part of killing your opponent. Often, your opponent will die with cards in their hand, not something that happens often in a traditional control deck, which indicates that a remand plan is reasonable.
Card advangtage is very important but mana advantage, which Remand actually is fighting over in most cases, is just as important.
I'm not sure if my definition is correct, but I thought of tempo as being responding things with lower resources. Like, spell snare (1 mana for 2), bolt and fatal push on higher cost creatures, daze (the best example IMO). I see delver (at least the legacy versions) being tempo for playing 4 spells until turn 2, like a T1 delver, T2 Delver+bolt and on the opp turn daze on something. Like, you answered their spells and played 2 threats to pressure your opponent. I think spell snare, bolt, spell pierce, are all good cards. And they're not trading cards for time, but cards for cards with lower resources.
Despite what I just said, I think remand is kind of a tempo play, because even though you're usually not spending less resources, you are usually exchanging 2 mana for some time (except for remand flashback, or remand your own spell in response to counter, where you really get card advantage).
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
Oh man, my apologies.. I completely spaced on replying the thread. She did well. She helped in the grindy matches for sure, giving a consistent threat (the 2/2 zombie), and filling the yard for all of the other graveyard interactions. The issue with her is that the situations in which she excels were situations where I already felt like I already had an advantage. That being said I do feel like she isn't the worst option for the deck. To give a more definitive opinion on her I'll need to play with her a tad more. I'll keep on testing and let you know though!
We got no future, we got no hope
Our life is pain and it's hard to cope.
*Excitement Intensifies*
Now I want to make the deck. *removes delvers and adds manlands/bombs*
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Here's the list Burkhart played on stream earlier this week, in case you missed it.
The deck follows the same philosophy as the ancestral vision iteration of the deck. You're a Jund-esque deck trying to trade even on resources and up on mana to reach a lategame where you can pick up the slack with Search for Azcanta, Cryptic and K-Command. You trade the mana efficiency of Ancestral Vision for the card selection of Search for Azcanta, even though it's more easily disruptable. Corey mentioned he didn't want to play Delve cards because he didn't want to tax his graveyard when he's trying to flip Search. Thus, the 2 Push 4 Bolt split is there to help close out games with Burn damage.
In the fun-off section you have Tribute to Hunger. He mentioned the games go on for so long the life gain is relevant, which in my experience it turns out to be... true. It just hurts, since the card is kind of the epitome of inefficiency.
He actually switched up the sideboard before he started playing a league, so I don't have much to say about it. The Death's Shadow in the sideboard do seem sound however, since as a control deck you want to be able to diversify your threats post-sideboard. If not Death's Shadow, I'd play something like Vendilion Clique instead.
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
So last night my testing group and I got together to jam some games. The deck is actually really solid. We tested the initial version without the Death's Majesty. If there's one thing that was confirmed last night, it's that Scarab God is insane. Even with no cards in hand, being able to reanimate a Snapcaster or Sheoldred to get value out of is absurd, and the fact that any deck not playing Path can't ATUALLY get rid of him is huge. I musty say, the deck was initially built to have something fun with, but its actually got some legs!
We got no future, we got no hope
Our life is pain and it's hard to cope.