With av the absolute lowest I would go is 3. If you go less than that the chances of having it early where it matters most is very low and it's a terrible top deck mid to late game unless it's a super grindy matchup. If you're going down to 2 I would just play another card draw spell honestly. Same with denial, not very good since it's a) a one of and b) even if you draw your one of its very difficult to have it be anything more than a force spike. The extra mana for a constant effect in negate or countersquall seems better.
These arguments make absolutely no sense. Just as having more copies of any card makes it more likely for you to have it in your opener, it will also make it more likely that you draw into one later in the game. There is no way to cheat this equation. Why is playing 2 AVs so disagreeable, while no one even questions it that the stock Grixis lists play 2 Pushes and 2 Snares - etc. Playing 1, 2 or 3 copies of AV is perfectly sensible since it is high variance card - very bad in some MUs, very good in others. I absolutely detest having 2 AVs in my opener, which is why I trimmed down to 2 copies from the previous 3.
Again, why would a spell being 1-off make it intrinsicly any worse than some other card? These claims make no logical sense. This deck is capable of letting us see a huge portion of our cards once we enter the mid and late game, which is why having many different kinds of spells with minor differences gives you better selection in comparison to playing only 4-offs. Obviously there is no guarantee you will get to turn Denial on very fast, but the spell can easily trade up on mana even as a force spike, especially against decks like Burn and UR storm.
If it wasn't obvious from the alternations I made to deck, I was desperate to make the deck less clunky with these additions. The difference between 2 and 1 mana and the difference between the 2nd AV and an action spell is monumental in Modern. So far I have liked these cards. Every card has its bad MU and they will almost all get sided out sometimes. There are no sacred cows.
I actually went 4-0 today in our Modern Wednesday, on top of the couple of 4-1 comp. league finishes in MODO:
Yes you're more likely to draw them later in the game that's part of the drawback of the card, that was never my argument. I said you want it early game and want as many copies as possible or none at all because it is ONLY great in the early game and at no other time barring very specific matchups. Look at is this way:
Turn 1 av: amazing card that does a lot for the deck
Turn 6 av: terrible card and might not even come off suspend by the time the game is over one way or another.
The effectiveness of specific cards can change drastically over the course of the game. The same principle applies to discard like thoughtseize and inquisition. Those cards are amazing in the first few turns and absolutely horrendous top decks late game. Do discard heavy decks run 2 discard spells and just cross their fingers to hope it pays off? No, the vast majority (gds, jund, abzan, 8 rack whatever) run anywhere from 5 to 8+ copies of these effects knowing full well that they'll be useless late game. The sheer power level offsets this and it's considered worth running the risk. I play a lot of deaths shadow right now and even with 6 copies of that effect and multiple ways to filter through my deck I don't always see those cards on time. The other cards you mentioned, snare and push are much different in their application in that you can immediately benefit from the card when you draw it. The power level of these cards is the same on turn 1 that they are on turn 6. If your argument was to cut av entirely I'd be on board with that, I can see other cards being far more useful. But shaving them too low is like having a single leyline of the void in your sideboard for graveyard hate: you're going to absolutely hate that it's in your deck if it's not exactly in your opening hand.
The one of's are not consistent that's the problem. In the deck you posted the vast majority of the time denial is only going to be force spike. Is force spike (for noncreatures only) really higher in power level than the other options? I'd argue not, which is why mana tithe doesn't see play in uw control or jeskai control to have "many different spells with minor differences." Including a wide variety of cards sounds great in theory but the problem is they're all situational and you run the risk of having a hand full of dead cards. This is a huge problem for a reactive control deck as you can't rely on board presence to hold you over since you typically won't have any. Having a bunch of cards that depend on specific situations to arise that may not be common (turning on stubborn denial) is going to make the deck more clunky, not less.
There many not be any sacred cows you're right but some cards are always going to be useful and some cards are going to wildly spike based on the matchup: this is what the sideboard is for, to include those silver bullet cards. For example how many times has anyone here sided out snapcaster mage in a matchup? Even when he's not great he's still good and the same can't be said for situational cards.
That being said congratulations on your finishes.
Thanks.
It's true that AV's value fluctuates randomly depending on whether you have it in your opener or whether you draw it later in the game, regardless of what deck you are facing. However, the card's value also depends on the MU as well. There are some MUs where a turn 2, 3 or 4 AV is still beneficial to you. Conversely there are MUs where even a turn 1 AV is not particularly exciting or not needed. Since there are instances where the card advantage of AV is valuable and the card is not detrimentally slow, I don't see the need to maximize my chances of drawing it in my opener. I would rather decrease the odds of having more than AV in my hand or suspended in any single moment, hence only the two copies. If there is a MU where AV is actually only good when I have it in my opener, then I will cut the card for something else if at all possible.
The problem with cutting AV entirely is that there aren't really good spells to opt in, and even if there were then I would still have to devote SB slots for those same AVs since I would still want to have them in my 75. Three AVs is a reasonable choice, and if the meta was still infested with Grixis DS then I would probably play three. For now I have settled down to two.
AV and the Leylines share some similarities, but are also completely different. By the way, the last time Reid played Jund he chose to play two Leylines, and also discussed why during a deck tech or something.
Regarding the discard example, your analogy is again flawed and I feel like you are not seeing my central point. Discard is only truly effective in the early game, yes, but my issue is not the risk/reward ratio of seeing AV in my opener compared to times when I see it only later into the game. Discard does *something* as soon as you draw and play, whereas suspending AV puts you down one card for 4 turns, until it allows you to catch back up. In any situation where I have more than one AV in hand or suspended, I have put myself down two cards until one of them resolves. This is the risk I want to minimize.
Suspecting the viability of Denial in a list with 4 Delve threats, be it as filled with card selection as our deck is, is healthy scepticism. However I am not seeing any options that are strictly or obviously better or more powerful. I am not happy with 3 Cryptics. I am looking into alternatives. Stubborn Denial has a set of unique strengths that no other card shares. It can create extremely powerful sequences in tandem with the fatties in this deck, and having access to 2 Denials post board gives me twice as many answers to a turn 2 Blood Moon, which is extremely hard to beat on the draw if unanswered. Spell Snare, Remand, Mana Leak, Countersquall, Dispel and Logic Knot are all serviceable spells, but right now my opinion is that none of these cards are more valuable than the first copy of Denial. So far my experiences have been strongly positive. If the card suddenly starts to underperform, then I will try something else.
EDIT: The reason why Jeskai lists don't play Denial is obviously that they have no way to turn the card into a hard counter. Not sure what you were getting at here.
There are very few reasons to not play all 4 if you want that card draw, or the highest possible odds of starting the game by suspending one. That's because there are now not 1 but 2 very good ways to "use" undesirable AVs in the hand.
I used to hate having AV in my starting hand on the draw and then hearing "Goblin Guide, combat"? But now I can hold on to that AV, use my t1 mana to push/bolt a threat, then convert that AV into a "target creature gets -2/-2" or "drain 2" or "discard a instant/sorcery" on my second turn. So that's AV's early game weakness covered.
In the lategame, topdecking an AV is bad unless we have Lighthouse. So its not all doom and gloom when you have some light.
If you're not playing either of these cards, AV is just going to be a gamble and then yes, it wouldn't really matter if you played 1 or 4; you're just playing those odds. 4 means you'll likely have the turn 1, but if your turn 5 and 6 draws are AV its going to feel terribad. I have found so far that AV isn't like a lightning bolt, because on its own it isn't all that amazing. Like Delver of Secrets, it needs to be built around, at least a little.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I've been playing a Kiki-Jiki combo/control list to good local success. I've 4-0'd several times when I hit my match-ups right. Otherwise, 3-1 is common. I feel like switching to a more traditional strategy. I'm a little worried about making my TitanShift match-up worse though since it was already shaky. How are your AV/Tasigur lists doing against TitanShift? Do you sideboard anything special?
I'm really hoping to Mana Leak a ramp spell or Fulminator Mage to slow them down and then jam my combo T5, not playing around Lightning Bolt. If they bolt Kiki-Jiki, I have to either try for another combo (maybe recur from Kolaghan's Command) or Bolt/Snapcaster/Manlands.
Anyways, I like AV in these lists. I'm considering going with the 3x Tasigur style lists that Burkhart popularized or return to trying Goblin Dark-Dwellers again.
Im a big fan of the new cryptic command art think i'll be trading in my current playset for them.
How is lost legacy and pull from tomorrow been for you? i liked playing the cards in standard, but am unsure of how they are for modern.
Has anyone tried using a Big game hunter for SB tech yet?
@EarthcraftElves: I used to play the combo when i missed playing splinter twin, but instead of a 3rd Kiki Jiki i used a Necrotic Ooze as a weaker version of Kiki Jiki, Tasigur, and Fulminator Mage since we play thought scours usually to enable snapcaster and delve. Best thing i ever did was wipe out someones manabase once.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Im a big fan of the new cryptic command art think i'll be trading in my current playset for them.
How is lost legacy and pull from tomorrow been for you? i liked playing the cards in standard, but am unsure of how they are for modern.
Has anyone tried using a Big game hunter for SB tech yet?
@EarthcraftElves: I used to play the combo when i missed playing splinter twin, but instead of a 3rd Kiki Jiki i used a Necrotic Ooze as a weaker version of Kiki Jiki, Tasigur, and Fulminator Mage since we play thought scours usually to enable snapcaster and delve. Best thing i ever did was wipe out someones manabase once.
I have liked Pull from Tomorrow. Since it's instant speed, it's passable at 4 cmc EOT. I really hope to draw it mid-game when I really want to re-fuel. I will say that the effect is less good in my build than Sphinx's Revelation in Esper because I have a lower land count with much more efficient spells on average. Even with 22 lands, I still find myself getting pretty high in land count by the end of a lot of games though.
Lost Legacy is mostly for TitanShift. I often name Scapeshift first and then plan to deal with the Prime Times. An ideal G2/G3 against TitanShift with Lost Legacy is to T3 exile Scapeshift and then T5 Snapcaster Mage -> Lost Legacy and hit Prime Time. After all of this, you can still unbelievably lose to natural Valakut triggers if you don't close the game quickly enough. My combo helps a lot here but Tasigur goes to work if available too.
Been experimenting with a different take on Grixis Control. Again, this list is just concept, no actual games have been played yet. The deck does have obvious flaws being even more soft to grave hate in a way. I wanted to try running a different suite of creatures and do things a little differently. No Serum Visions, only Opt and a bunch of business spells.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I like Ancestral Vision - maybe it's not the best build, but I think it's still pretty powerful. The pure draw-go approach with Pull From Tomorrow is interesting, but I think you're trying to do something Jeskai/UW does strictly better than you (not like that's an argument not to play it, though).
My problem with the list from last year is that the deck is trying to trade on mana in a world where the decks either are more mana-efficient than you (Grixis Death's Shadow, Burn...) or are too impactful and are better dealt with using targeted discard (Thought-Knot Seer, Primeval Titan, Collected Company...). So I like cutting the Spell Snares (which was one of the best cards in the deck, but not at its best right now) and adding some number of discards spells - I'm trying 1 Inquisition 1 Thoughtseize, meant only to deal with threats my hand is bad against and I usually take them out on the draw.
You can think of this as a "best of both worlds" approach to the deck, where you're have the power to deal with decks that attack you from weird angles, but you're also capable of trading on mana with decks where it's relevant, like the deck did in the past.
I don't like the Lilianas in Corey's list, maybe I'm playing them wrong, but every time you discard a Cryptic Command a kitten dies (ask Tasipurr).
can someone explain to me why this deck is no longer tier 2? is it because of a lack of competitiveness in the death shadow meta? or just lack of popularity? just curious?
The question I asked myself was, "Why play Grixis Control when I can play Grixis Death Shadow?" And that gave me my answer. I don't think the deck is in a good spot. This deck is always fighting an uphill battle. UWr Control has better tools for controlling and staying in the game. I think Spell Queller filled the gap of counter + clock in one card. Grixis has nothing close to that. And Gideon(s) are all fantastic control Planeswalkers IMO.
Can't say I didn't think about trying this deck again though just as a refresh. I want to try a different build but not sure if it's any better then the current. It got zero feedback so far.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I've been away from Grixis for a long time playing various blood moon and jeskai decks, but am coming back around. I'm interested in the control build and working on Azcanta. Let me know if you have any suggestions and I plan on running this tomorrow so I'll let everyone know how it goes.
lugger,
I've moved toward a really similar list to you. Playing a lot of the same one-ofs. I am running 21 lands, as we have SO many cantrips, an additional delve threat and another tar-pit. I don't have a large sample size but I love the way this deck plays. It feels similar to something like jeskai flash. you see so many cards.
In Corey's latest video he talked about decreasing cantrips but i'm not totally sure I buy his logic...
Good to hear Existenz, how are you doing vs. the field? I've been messing with a few Azcanta on tappedout.net but no real games. The card helps this deck in so many ways too.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Poking my head in here since I'm back on the grixis control train. I took a fairly stock list to an IQ a bit ago and managed to get third before falling to BW pox, beating the typical modern metagame along the way. What I wanted to talk about however is the idea of cutting thought scour from the list entirely. Yes it has amazing synergy with our graveyard value cards and is never blank since it draws a card. My issue has been having too much air in the deck and having to use it to find land and, in a control deck, you never want to "cast" your land drops. Here's what I've been having success with as of late:
Search for azcanta has been absolutely amazing. Just like in standard, when it flips you almost win the game right then. Even without thought scour in the list there is no difficulty in flipping it. Just like making a tarmogoyf large, you just need to play interactive magic and that does the work for you. There is no need to play anything that "enables" it, fetchlands once again do all the heavy lifting. The main appeal is that it's a card draw engine in a single card that does 'something' early on and gets out of control real fast starting in the mid game. It does take some getting used to with how to sequence your spells and which lands to tap etc, but it is well worth it. Last but not least is that the mana ramp is a real benefit that should not be underestimated.
I'm going back to spell snares in the list with the popularity of UWR steadily increasing and snare is amazingly good in snapcaster mirrors. With facing affinity being a certainty and storm all over the place I think it's time for snare to be in our lists again. As for the specific numbers and main/side considerations I'm not settled on, would love some feedback on this point. I've cut the 4th cryptic to make room for the MD snare and have been happy with 3 cryptics for quite a long time now. It's too easy you get choked on them causing you to fall behind and be forced into using them as a fog. I haven't missed the 4th copy yet.
I'm still on the 2/1 split of delve finishers and it continues to be relevant with the vendillion being a spot I'm not 100% on. I want one more creature threat in the list that is at least serviceable in the fair match ups and at good to great against the various combo decks and clique seems to be the best to fit that role. I've ran kalitas in the past but it's basically uncastable against storm and the like while being mediocre against eldrazi.
The lack of scours hasn't been as bad as I thought it could be. I'm hitting my lands easier, I'm shocking myself less with the fast lands, and have been less likely to fall behind early when I have to durdle for a bit. The only real negative I've come across is that I can't turn 2 a tasigur and Kommand is a bit slower to convert into a raise dead value play. All in all I'm quite happy without them and would like to know if anybody else has tried cutting them. Right now the exchange I made from the stock lists was -4 scours, -1 bolt and +2 land, +1 search for azcanta, +1 clique, +1 engineered explosives.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I agree on Thought Scour. I've been wanting to exclude the card and see how it goes. To me, playing more business spells and less "fluff" spells seems correct. Otherwise, I like the list and keep on rockin' it.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Also has anybody tried jamming the breach + Emmy combo into the grixis shell? I've just started trying it out and it shows some promise, not sure if it's better but it surely seems to be a fine alternative to pure control so far. This is what I've been tinkering with:
Having a combo finish makes it much easier to steal games against bad match ups and remand is still the huge tempo play that it has always been. The SB lets you morph into pure control if you don't think the combo is going to happen or if you just want to sidestep what they've brought in. Need to do a lot of testing against Thoughtseize.dec to see if it's worth keeping in the combo or shifting over to the card draw + removal control plan is a better idea.
I realize this may be blurring the lines between this thread and every breach combo thread ever, but I think having a control shell that happens to have the combo is different enough and I wanted to get a take from actual control players on it. To me the reason to run grixis breach over the UR version is because blood moon isn't always "2R - win the game" and the grixis control shell is a great plan B to keep you afloat until you can stitch it together. Terminate is miles better than Roast and Kommand + Snap is an amazing late game engine as we all know.
Thoughts? Has anybody else tried this? Am I wasting my time by durdling with a worse version of another deck?
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Thanks.
It's true that AV's value fluctuates randomly depending on whether you have it in your opener or whether you draw it later in the game, regardless of what deck you are facing. However, the card's value also depends on the MU as well. There are some MUs where a turn 2, 3 or 4 AV is still beneficial to you. Conversely there are MUs where even a turn 1 AV is not particularly exciting or not needed. Since there are instances where the card advantage of AV is valuable and the card is not detrimentally slow, I don't see the need to maximize my chances of drawing it in my opener. I would rather decrease the odds of having more than AV in my hand or suspended in any single moment, hence only the two copies. If there is a MU where AV is actually only good when I have it in my opener, then I will cut the card for something else if at all possible.
The problem with cutting AV entirely is that there aren't really good spells to opt in, and even if there were then I would still have to devote SB slots for those same AVs since I would still want to have them in my 75. Three AVs is a reasonable choice, and if the meta was still infested with Grixis DS then I would probably play three. For now I have settled down to two.
AV and the Leylines share some similarities, but are also completely different. By the way, the last time Reid played Jund he chose to play two Leylines, and also discussed why during a deck tech or something.
Regarding the discard example, your analogy is again flawed and I feel like you are not seeing my central point. Discard is only truly effective in the early game, yes, but my issue is not the risk/reward ratio of seeing AV in my opener compared to times when I see it only later into the game. Discard does *something* as soon as you draw and play, whereas suspending AV puts you down one card for 4 turns, until it allows you to catch back up. In any situation where I have more than one AV in hand or suspended, I have put myself down two cards until one of them resolves. This is the risk I want to minimize.
Suspecting the viability of Denial in a list with 4 Delve threats, be it as filled with card selection as our deck is, is healthy scepticism. However I am not seeing any options that are strictly or obviously better or more powerful. I am not happy with 3 Cryptics. I am looking into alternatives. Stubborn Denial has a set of unique strengths that no other card shares. It can create extremely powerful sequences in tandem with the fatties in this deck, and having access to 2 Denials post board gives me twice as many answers to a turn 2 Blood Moon, which is extremely hard to beat on the draw if unanswered. Spell Snare, Remand, Mana Leak, Countersquall, Dispel and Logic Knot are all serviceable spells, but right now my opinion is that none of these cards are more valuable than the first copy of Denial. So far my experiences have been strongly positive. If the card suddenly starts to underperform, then I will try something else.
EDIT: The reason why Jeskai lists don't play Denial is obviously that they have no way to turn the card into a hard counter. Not sure what you were getting at here.
Youtube Channel
There are very few reasons to not play all 4 if you want that card draw, or the highest possible odds of starting the game by suspending one. That's because there are now not 1 but 2 very good ways to "use" undesirable AVs in the hand.
Collective Brutality
Desolate Lighthouse
I used to hate having AV in my starting hand on the draw and then hearing "Goblin Guide, combat"? But now I can hold on to that AV, use my t1 mana to push/bolt a threat, then convert that AV into a "target creature gets -2/-2" or "drain 2" or "discard a instant/sorcery" on my second turn. So that's AV's early game weakness covered.
In the lategame, topdecking an AV is bad unless we have Lighthouse. So its not all doom and gloom when you have some light.
If you're not playing either of these cards, AV is just going to be a gamble and then yes, it wouldn't really matter if you played 1 or 4; you're just playing those odds. 4 means you'll likely have the turn 1, but if your turn 5 and 6 draws are AV its going to feel terribad. I have found so far that AV isn't like a lightning bolt, because on its own it isn't all that amazing. Like Delver of Secrets, it needs to be built around, at least a little.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Here's my Kiki-Jiki list today.
My plan against TitanShift now is something like
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-4 Ancestral Vision
+2 Lost Legacy
+3 Fulminator Mage
+1 Negate
I'm really hoping to Mana Leak a ramp spell or Fulminator Mage to slow them down and then jam my combo T5, not playing around Lightning Bolt. If they bolt Kiki-Jiki, I have to either try for another combo (maybe recur from Kolaghan's Command) or Bolt/Snapcaster/Manlands.
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Deceiver Exarch
3x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Fatal Push
2x Terminate
3x Kolaghan's Command
1x Dispel
2x Mana Leak
3x Cryptic Command
1x Pull from Tomorrow
Sorceries
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Serum Visions
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Smoldering Marsh
1x Spirebluff Canal
3x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Wandering Fumarole
2x Watery Grave
2x Anger of the Gods
3x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Damnation
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Negate
2x Lost Legacy
Anyways, I like AV in these lists. I'm considering going with the 3x Tasigur style lists that Burkhart popularized or return to trying Goblin Dark-Dwellers again.
EDH Multiplayer: BUG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, UWG Roon of the Hidden Realm, UG Edric - Elf Tribal
1v1 Commander: BUG Leovold, Emissary of Trest
How is lost legacy and pull from tomorrow been for you? i liked playing the cards in standard, but am unsure of how they are for modern.
Has anyone tried using a Big game hunter for SB tech yet?
@EarthcraftElves: I used to play the combo when i missed playing splinter twin, but instead of a 3rd Kiki Jiki i used a Necrotic Ooze as a weaker version of Kiki Jiki, Tasigur, and Fulminator Mage since we play thought scours usually to enable snapcaster and delve. Best thing i ever did was wipe out someones manabase once.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I have liked Pull from Tomorrow. Since it's instant speed, it's passable at 4 cmc EOT. I really hope to draw it mid-game when I really want to re-fuel. I will say that the effect is less good in my build than Sphinx's Revelation in Esper because I have a lower land count with much more efficient spells on average. Even with 22 lands, I still find myself getting pretty high in land count by the end of a lot of games though.
Lost Legacy is mostly for TitanShift. I often name Scapeshift first and then plan to deal with the Prime Times. An ideal G2/G3 against TitanShift with Lost Legacy is to T3 exile Scapeshift and then T5 Snapcaster Mage -> Lost Legacy and hit Prime Time. After all of this, you can still unbelievably lose to natural Valakut triggers if you don't close the game quickly enough. My combo helps a lot here but Tasigur goes to work if available too.
Unrelated, is anyone testing Search for Azcanta?
EDH Multiplayer: BUG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, UWG Roon of the Hidden Realm, UG Edric - Elf Tribal
1v1 Commander: BUG Leovold, Emissary of Trest
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/opting-for-a-different-grixis-control/
I...don't like it that much! But who knows, it may be sweet.
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
Grixis Counter Drake
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
My problem with the list from last year is that the deck is trying to trade on mana in a world where the decks either are more mana-efficient than you (Grixis Death's Shadow, Burn...) or are too impactful and are better dealt with using targeted discard (Thought-Knot Seer, Primeval Titan, Collected Company...). So I like cutting the Spell Snares (which was one of the best cards in the deck, but not at its best right now) and adding some number of discards spells - I'm trying 1 Inquisition 1 Thoughtseize, meant only to deal with threats my hand is bad against and I usually take them out on the draw.
You can think of this as a "best of both worlds" approach to the deck, where you're have the power to deal with decks that attack you from weird angles, but you're also capable of trading on mana with decks where it's relevant, like the deck did in the past.
I don't like the Lilianas in Corey's list, maybe I'm playing them wrong, but every time you discard a Cryptic Command a kitten dies (ask Tasipurr).
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
Can't say I didn't think about trying this deck again though just as a refresh. I want to try a different build but not sure if it's any better then the current. It got zero feedback so far.
Grixis Counter Drake
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
2x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Island
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
Removal (13)
4x Fatal Push
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Terminate
3x Kolaghan's Command
1x Damnation
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
2x Spell Snare
2x Logic Knot
2x Mana Leak
4x Cryptic Command
Card Selection (6)
4x Serum Visions
1x Opt
1x Search for Azcanta
Threats (6)
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
2x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Negate
2x Surgical Extraction
1x The Scarab God
1x Wurmcoil Engine
I've been away from Grixis for a long time playing various blood moon and jeskai decks, but am coming back around. I'm interested in the control build and working on Azcanta. Let me know if you have any suggestions and I plan on running this tomorrow so I'll let everyone know how it goes.
4x Opt
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Fatal Push
2x Spell Snare
3x Terminate
1x Remand
1x Shadow of Doubt
1x Logic Knot
2x Mana Leak
3x Kolaghan's Command
1x Electrolyze
3x Cryptic Command
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Gurmag Angler
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Drowned Catacomb
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Desolate Lighthouse
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
3x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Flashfreeze
1x Negate
1x Dispel
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Olivia Voldaren
2x Collective Brutality
2x Fulminator Mage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucS_l6RqyEY
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
I've moved toward a really similar list to you. Playing a lot of the same one-ofs. I am running 21 lands, as we have SO many cantrips, an additional delve threat and another tar-pit. I don't have a large sample size but I love the way this deck plays. It feels similar to something like jeskai flash. you see so many cards.
In Corey's latest video he talked about decreasing cantrips but i'm not totally sure I buy his logic...
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
but then they also have ghost quarters and tec edges. with only 2 colors its a lot easier to run utility lands.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
Removal
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
Permission
3 Cryptic Command
2 Logic Knot
2 Negate
1 Spell Snare
Card draw
1 Search for Azcanta
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
1 Blood Crypt
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dreadbore
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spell Snare
2 Surgical Extraction
Search for azcanta has been absolutely amazing. Just like in standard, when it flips you almost win the game right then. Even without thought scour in the list there is no difficulty in flipping it. Just like making a tarmogoyf large, you just need to play interactive magic and that does the work for you. There is no need to play anything that "enables" it, fetchlands once again do all the heavy lifting. The main appeal is that it's a card draw engine in a single card that does 'something' early on and gets out of control real fast starting in the mid game. It does take some getting used to with how to sequence your spells and which lands to tap etc, but it is well worth it. Last but not least is that the mana ramp is a real benefit that should not be underestimated.
I'm going back to spell snares in the list with the popularity of UWR steadily increasing and snare is amazingly good in snapcaster mirrors. With facing affinity being a certainty and storm all over the place I think it's time for snare to be in our lists again. As for the specific numbers and main/side considerations I'm not settled on, would love some feedback on this point. I've cut the 4th cryptic to make room for the MD snare and have been happy with 3 cryptics for quite a long time now. It's too easy you get choked on them causing you to fall behind and be forced into using them as a fog. I haven't missed the 4th copy yet.
I'm still on the 2/1 split of delve finishers and it continues to be relevant with the vendillion being a spot I'm not 100% on. I want one more creature threat in the list that is at least serviceable in the fair match ups and at good to great against the various combo decks and clique seems to be the best to fit that role. I've ran kalitas in the past but it's basically uncastable against storm and the like while being mediocre against eldrazi.
The lack of scours hasn't been as bad as I thought it could be. I'm hitting my lands easier, I'm shocking myself less with the fast lands, and have been less likely to fall behind early when I have to durdle for a bit. The only real negative I've come across is that I can't turn 2 a tasigur and Kommand is a bit slower to convert into a raise dead value play. All in all I'm quite happy without them and would like to know if anybody else has tried cutting them. Right now the exchange I made from the stock lists was -4 scours, -1 bolt and +2 land, +1 search for azcanta, +1 clique, +1 engineered explosives.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
4 Through the Breach
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vendilion Clique
Permission
4 Remand
2 Spell Snare
2 Cryptic Command
Removal
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
1 Search for Azcanta
4 Serum Visions
Mana
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Having a combo finish makes it much easier to steal games against bad match ups and remand is still the huge tempo play that it has always been. The SB lets you morph into pure control if you don't think the combo is going to happen or if you just want to sidestep what they've brought in. Need to do a lot of testing against Thoughtseize.dec to see if it's worth keeping in the combo or shifting over to the card draw + removal control plan is a better idea.
I realize this may be blurring the lines between this thread and every breach combo thread ever, but I think having a control shell that happens to have the combo is different enough and I wanted to get a take from actual control players on it. To me the reason to run grixis breach over the UR version is because blood moon isn't always "2R - win the game" and the grixis control shell is a great plan B to keep you afloat until you can stitch it together. Terminate is miles better than Roast and Kommand + Snap is an amazing late game engine as we all know.
Thoughts? Has anybody else tried this? Am I wasting my time by durdling with a worse version of another deck?