Interesting that you still want 3 manamoprhose and only two serum visions in your build. I'm also surprised that you didnt want any izzet charm. Also, why do you think slag storm is better than pyroclasm or anger of the gods.
If you could expand on what you're testing revealed and why you settled on these numbers, that would be great.
Absolutely the most consistent build of this deck I've encountered after testing different versions for 144 hours. It basically plays that if you have a goryo's vengeance in hand by turn two you win
I really like this list but with only 16 lands, 7 being fetches, don't you ever have an issue going off at instant speed? 16 makes me nervous about unnecessary mulligans.
I assume 0 for Amulet Bloom for the Hivemind/Pact combo, but if you set it on 1 you knock out your draw spells and if on 2 your combo enablers.
Note that Chalice on 0 doesn't do anything to the Hive Mind + Summoner's Pact combo. The chalice will counter the original pact, but the Hive Mind copy is still created and isn't cast, so chalice doesn't do anything to it. Chalice on 0 is still strong against Bloom though, because they can't chain Titans by fetching Tolaria West -> Pact -> Titan.
Interesting that you still want 3 manamoprhose and only two serum visions in your build. I'm also surprised that you didnt want any izzet charm. Also, why do you think slag storm is better than pyroclasm or anger of the gods.
If you could expand on what you're testing revealed and why you settled on these numbers, that would be great.
Absolutely the most consistent build of this deck I've encountered after testing different versions for 144 hours. It basically plays that if you have a goryo's vengeance in hand by turn two you win
I really like this list but with only 16 lands, 7 being fetches, don't you ever have an issue going off at instant speed? 16 makes me nervous about unnecessary mulligans.
I assume 0 for Amulet Bloom for the Hivemind/Pact combo, but if you set it on 1 you knock out your draw spells and if on 2 your combo enablers.
Note that Chalice on 0 doesn't do anything to the Hive Mind + Summoner's Pact combo. The chalice will counter the original pact, but the Hive Mind copy is still created and isn't cast, so chalice doesn't do anything to it. Chalice on 0 is still strong against Bloom though, because they can't chain Titans by fetching Tolaria West -> Pact -> Titan.
I've considered swapping it out for Anger of the Gods but there hasn't been enough of a difference between the two for me to change it and when it came down to it, the three damage has finished a match for me once.
Izzet charm was a consideration at a point but the only slot it could fill is the lightning axe slot and Lightning Axe is much needed removal without the investment. When you're trying to win off of 2-3 mana, two mana becomes unnecessarily expensive.
Serum Visions is honestly not as useful as a lot of people beg it to be. It's a Faithless Looting Enabler and unless you have both in hand then you have a card that could be replaced by a plethora of others. Manamorphose on the other hand replaces what it takes and when you burn down to nothing but the spirit guides and rituals to generate mana, being able to get the looting/lightning axe off and and goryo's vengenace one last time as opposed to paying one more and hoping to splice Through the Breech onto a Shoals that might not be there, it becomes easier to get some discernible consistency in getting it out if you don't have the life to pay and are low on mana. Sadly, it has happened more than I thought it would.
As far as the land base goes, you pretty much never need more than two lands on the field so having over 1/4 of the deck being lands isn't out of the question. Going off at Instant Speed has not really been an issue outside of once when I had three worldspine Worm's pooled at the bottom right next to each other.
Since you're working towards a combo finish, it's very common to have one or more combo pieces in hand while you wait on finding the things you need to kick it off. Casting Shattered Perception is going to put those in the graveyard. Having to choose to cast this and losing a Nourshing Shoal or Goryo's Vengeance is not where you want to be.
It's a better fit in a dredge-oriented sort of deck, where you don't care what's in your hand, and drawing extra cards just enables dredge.
So after playing with Maynard's version, I have come to the conclusion that Jace is not a card this deck wants to play. It's way too slow to ever matter in any matchup. Additionally, he's basically impossible to stick. Other than GV him into play and switching him to his planeswalker mode, it's just not worth it.
I made two important changes to the deck (while keeping the blue). I added 2 LoS as the burn match up is basically unwinnable. If you don't manage to combo off by turn two, you're 99% dead. I've never made it past turn 3 against them. They know to just throw all their burn at your face. Also, Jace against them is so bad. You just get Seering blazed.
The Boseiju main I can take or leave it. The games where it matters the most are against grixis variants. My win and in last weekend was against Grixis, which I utterly annihilated. You can afford to play a slower game and once I landed the Boseiju, it was GG. His hand was completely turned off.
Anyways, I cut the jaces and brought back the Night's whispers. So the deck now has: Night's whispers, Serum Visions and loot. I think this allows for enough redundancy to limit the fizzling out hands. I have to say that painful truths are freaking awesome in this build. I also cut the number of fetches (the tarns) as I don't think that's necessary.
There's some big events coming up. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Ps. Affinity is still the hardest match up there is, in my mind. Burn can be vanquished with a leyline, but affinity with thoughtseizes are infinitely harder to beat. And adding the leylines to the main for that matchup doesn't seem like the best of plans.
Hey guys I'm slowly piecing this deck together. The BR version Bob hyung plays. How do you guys feel it will fair vs a meta of;
Burn
Affinity
Naya zoo
Grixis twin
Infect
Kin fiend
And generally fast kill decks.
Thanks for any help and deck suggestions to deal with these!
Read through this thread start to finish, if you want a good idea of what to expect. In a fast meta be ready to mulligan aggressively, it won't be for the faint of heart.
Alas boys! I wish I could regal you all with a tale of a top 8 success, but variance continues being a *****. Played in a local GPT today and went 0-2 drop.
Match 1 vs: Blue Moon.
I knew my opponent was playing blue moon as I saw him writing his deck list while his deck was spread out. I figured that this would be a fairly easy match....
Game 1: I open my hand (on the draw) with: 2x Serum visions, 1 Griselbrand, 1 Faithless looting, 1 Desperate ritual, 1 Nourishing Shoal and a Goryo's vengeance. I'm thinking...if I draw ANY land in my deck that isn't a a boseiju or a swamp, I win this on turn two. I mull over the possibilities and decide to keep. I draw...not a land. Discard griselbrand. Next turn, I draw...a swamp. What rotten luck. I knew that this was not a good way to start my tournament. I proceed to never see a second land and lose to delver and pyromancer. He even tapped out on turn two so if I drew any lands I won that game.
Game 2: Combo out easily turn two.
Game 3: I keep a hand of 3 lands, griselbrand, serum visions and nights whispers. I proceed to draw 6 lands in a row while he setups up a turn one delver (with a turn two flip. Two games which he played a turn one delver he got it to flip on turn two. Pretty lucky). I just die with 2 lands and 2 griselbrand in hand. Lose to my deck.
Match 2: Combo elves
Now this is a deck I don't play often but have a pretty good idea what i need to do. Win in 3 turns or lose.
Game 1: I have a slow hand but I can breach a wurm turn 4. I have 4 lands in play, a griselbrand in my graveyard and a looting in my hand. I can either loot and hope i draw a GV or breach the wurm and hit him for 15 and get 3 5/5. I chose to do nothing and pass turn as I want to breach the wurm during his turn. Too bad because I just die (he had 7 elves and ends up casting behemoth for 36 damage). My next two cards? A loot and a GV....
Game 2: Combo off turn two for an easy win.
Game 3: Mulligan into oblivion (3) and lose the game easily. Every hand I had did nothing so I couldn't keep.
I only got 2 hands in both my matches with Serum visions in the opener and only one was keepable. Every time you mulligan, the deck loses a huge ability to combo off. The problem is that there are so many moving parts. Other than having the typical god hand, you end up grinding a lot.
The echoing truths are really good actually. So I'm keeping those in. I'm thinking that I will cut the angers in favor of Pyroclasm. There aren't that many situations where the angers are better. I wouldn't make any changes to this list. I was just unlucky. Now hopefully Oath has something for this deck!
I wouldn't make any changes to this list. I was just unlucky. Now hopefully Oath has something for this deck!
Speaking of Oath, what particularly should i (we) be hoping or looking for to add to this deck list?
A more important question, I've been running a pretty standard list (minus moons, so expensive) would it be wiser to go grixis for a more consistent gameplay?
I wouldn't make any changes to this list. I was just unlucky. Now hopefully Oath has something for this deck!
Speaking of Oath, what particularly should i (we) be hoping or looking for to add to this deck list?
A more important question, I've been running a pretty standard list (minus moons, so expensive) would it be wiser to go grixis for a more consistent gameplay?
Zendikar themes don't lend themselves to add anything to the deck. Innistrad however... I will put money down there is a card for us in that block.
Went to a modern event last night. Did horribly, mostly to keeping poor hands and really, really bad shuffles.
No need to write up my matches, but I was happy to win two games with a breached worm.
Bought some of the more necessary pieces for the night (now at 3 breaches, 3 worms), and still debating on going RBU and whether to get blood moons.
For RBU I know I'm going to run:
3-4 scheming
2-3 visions
1 helimar depth
1 ub temple
And my current SB:
3 pacts
3 Pyro
3 chalice of the void (hate for infect/burn/bloom/lantern)
1 boseiju
2 IoK
2 necrotic ooze (flex)
1 noxious revival (axe is MB)
I know that no one answer is ever THE answer. However, what would a more experienced pilots recommend for my SB and/ or the RB vs RBU list?
I second the blood moon sentiment. That card just wins against so many decks. I realize it is expensive, but if you can manage it, it will help tremendously.
Also the third wurm is important and not very expensive.
I also think some artifact hate is good. Shatter storm and rakdos charm paired with pyroclasm make the affinity matchup much better. Also, I think if twin is still popular torpor orb isn't bad. SB slots depend heavily on the meta you expect, though. Personally I've never been a fan of discard in the board, but many people do like it.
I also tried out necrotic ooze and didn't find it as good as I wanted it to be. I love the card, but moved away from it.
I am on the fence between BR and BRU as well. I see benefits to each. The blue cards are powerful (visions, scheming, izzet charm) (I don't like Jace) but it has drawbacks. I think it has a lot to do with play style and what you hate losing to.
MD:
Change the third Borbor for another Worldspine Wurm (Wurm is better with TTB and Shoal)
Kick the U out of your manabase, no need for it, if you are not running any U cards (and no, Pact doesn't count), so kick Watery Grave and Gemstone Mine, add 2 Blackcleave Cliffs. Forbidden Orchird is borderline playable, would change it for a Blood Crypt.
SB:
Would kick Ooze, Revival and Inquisition, add 1 TTB (for the BGx match-up you want all 4 of them), 2 Moon and 2 Shatterstorm
Affinity is a rather rough match-up (they are on average slightly faster than we), so you really want a sweeper against hem (Shatterstorm).
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
If you could expand on what you're testing revealed and why you settled on these numbers, that would be great.
I really like this list but with only 16 lands, 7 being fetches, don't you ever have an issue going off at instant speed? 16 makes me nervous about unnecessary mulligans.
Note that Chalice on 0 doesn't do anything to the Hive Mind + Summoner's Pact combo. The chalice will counter the original pact, but the Hive Mind copy is still created and isn't cast, so chalice doesn't do anything to it. Chalice on 0 is still strong against Bloom though, because they can't chain Titans by fetching Tolaria West -> Pact -> Titan.
I've considered swapping it out for Anger of the Gods but there hasn't been enough of a difference between the two for me to change it and when it came down to it, the three damage has finished a match for me once.
Izzet charm was a consideration at a point but the only slot it could fill is the lightning axe slot and Lightning Axe is much needed removal without the investment. When you're trying to win off of 2-3 mana, two mana becomes unnecessarily expensive.
Serum Visions is honestly not as useful as a lot of people beg it to be. It's a Faithless Looting Enabler and unless you have both in hand then you have a card that could be replaced by a plethora of others. Manamorphose on the other hand replaces what it takes and when you burn down to nothing but the spirit guides and rituals to generate mana, being able to get the looting/lightning axe off and and goryo's vengenace one last time as opposed to paying one more and hoping to splice Through the Breech onto a Shoals that might not be there, it becomes easier to get some discernible consistency in getting it out if you don't have the life to pay and are low on mana. Sadly, it has happened more than I thought it would.
As far as the land base goes, you pretty much never need more than two lands on the field so having over 1/4 of the deck being lands isn't out of the question. Going off at Instant Speed has not really been an issue outside of once when I had three worldspine Worm's pooled at the bottom right next to each other.
Shattered Perception doesn't really fit in this deck.
Since you're working towards a combo finish, it's very common to have one or more combo pieces in hand while you wait on finding the things you need to kick it off. Casting Shattered Perception is going to put those in the graveyard. Having to choose to cast this and losing a Nourshing Shoal or Goryo's Vengeance is not where you want to be.
It's a better fit in a dredge-oriented sort of deck, where you don't care what's in your hand, and drawing extra cards just enables dredge.
I made two important changes to the deck (while keeping the blue). I added 2 LoS as the burn match up is basically unwinnable. If you don't manage to combo off by turn two, you're 99% dead. I've never made it past turn 3 against them. They know to just throw all their burn at your face. Also, Jace against them is so bad. You just get Seering blazed.
The Boseiju main I can take or leave it. The games where it matters the most are against grixis variants. My win and in last weekend was against Grixis, which I utterly annihilated. You can afford to play a slower game and once I landed the Boseiju, it was GG. His hand was completely turned off.
Anyways, I cut the jaces and brought back the Night's whispers. So the deck now has: Night's whispers, Serum Visions and loot. I think this allows for enough redundancy to limit the fizzling out hands. I have to say that painful truths are freaking awesome in this build. I also cut the number of fetches (the tarns) as I don't think that's necessary.
There's some big events coming up. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Ps. Affinity is still the hardest match up there is, in my mind. Burn can be vanquished with a leyline, but affinity with thoughtseizes are infinitely harder to beat. And adding the leylines to the main for that matchup doesn't seem like the best of plans.
Burn
Affinity
Naya zoo
Grixis twin
Infect
Kin fiend
And generally fast kill decks.
Thanks for any help and deck suggestions to deal with these!
Read through this thread start to finish, if you want a good idea of what to expect. In a fast meta be ready to mulligan aggressively, it won't be for the faint of heart.
1 Island
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Darkslick Shore
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Boseiju, who shelters all
4 Faithless Looting
3 Night's Whisper
4 Serum Vision
3 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Manamorphose
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the breach
2 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Griselbrand
2 Shatterstorm
3 Blood moon
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Painful Truths
2 Pact of Negation
2 Echoing Truth
Alas boys! I wish I could regal you all with a tale of a top 8 success, but variance continues being a *****. Played in a local GPT today and went 0-2 drop.
Match 1 vs: Blue Moon.
I knew my opponent was playing blue moon as I saw him writing his deck list while his deck was spread out. I figured that this would be a fairly easy match....
Game 1: I open my hand (on the draw) with: 2x Serum visions, 1 Griselbrand, 1 Faithless looting, 1 Desperate ritual, 1 Nourishing Shoal and a Goryo's vengeance. I'm thinking...if I draw ANY land in my deck that isn't a a boseiju or a swamp, I win this on turn two. I mull over the possibilities and decide to keep. I draw...not a land. Discard griselbrand. Next turn, I draw...a swamp. What rotten luck. I knew that this was not a good way to start my tournament. I proceed to never see a second land and lose to delver and pyromancer. He even tapped out on turn two so if I drew any lands I won that game.
Game 2: Combo out easily turn two.
Game 3: I keep a hand of 3 lands, griselbrand, serum visions and nights whispers. I proceed to draw 6 lands in a row while he setups up a turn one delver (with a turn two flip. Two games which he played a turn one delver he got it to flip on turn two. Pretty lucky). I just die with 2 lands and 2 griselbrand in hand. Lose to my deck.
Match 2: Combo elves
Now this is a deck I don't play often but have a pretty good idea what i need to do. Win in 3 turns or lose.
Game 1: I have a slow hand but I can breach a wurm turn 4. I have 4 lands in play, a griselbrand in my graveyard and a looting in my hand. I can either loot and hope i draw a GV or breach the wurm and hit him for 15 and get 3 5/5. I chose to do nothing and pass turn as I want to breach the wurm during his turn. Too bad because I just die (he had 7 elves and ends up casting behemoth for 36 damage). My next two cards? A loot and a GV....
Game 2: Combo off turn two for an easy win.
Game 3: Mulligan into oblivion (3) and lose the game easily. Every hand I had did nothing so I couldn't keep.
I only got 2 hands in both my matches with Serum visions in the opener and only one was keepable. Every time you mulligan, the deck loses a huge ability to combo off. The problem is that there are so many moving parts. Other than having the typical god hand, you end up grinding a lot.
The echoing truths are really good actually. So I'm keeping those in. I'm thinking that I will cut the angers in favor of Pyroclasm. There aren't that many situations where the angers are better. I wouldn't make any changes to this list. I was just unlucky. Now hopefully Oath has something for this deck!
Speaking of Oath, what particularly should i (we) be hoping or looking for to add to this deck list?
A more important question, I've been running a pretty standard list (minus moons, so expensive) would it be wiser to go grixis for a more consistent gameplay?
Zendikar themes don't lend themselves to add anything to the deck. Innistrad however... I will put money down there is a card for us in that block.
No need to write up my matches, but I was happy to win two games with a breached worm.
Bought some of the more necessary pieces for the night (now at 3 breaches, 3 worms), and still debating on going RBU and whether to get blood moons.
For RBU I know I'm going to run:
3-4 scheming
2-3 visions
1 helimar depth
1 ub temple
And my current SB:
3 pacts
3 Pyro
3 chalice of the void (hate for infect/burn/bloom/lantern)
1 boseiju
2 IoK
2 necrotic ooze (flex)
1 noxious revival (axe is MB)
I know that no one answer is ever THE answer. However, what would a more experienced pilots recommend for my SB and/ or the RB vs RBU list?
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
3 Worldspine Wurm
3 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Through the Breach
3 Desperate Ritual
2 Manamorphose
4 Nourishing Shoal
1 Lightning Axe
4 Faithless Looting
4 Night's Whisper
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Gemstone mine
1 Forbidden Orchird
4 Temple of Malice
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
3 Pact of Negation
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pyroclasm
1 Boseiju, who shelters all
2 Necrotic Ooze
1 Noxious Revival
Some kind of Artifact hate, I think my sideboard has one Shatterstorm and one swiss army Rakdos Charm.
Also the third wurm is important and not very expensive.
I also think some artifact hate is good. Shatter storm and rakdos charm paired with pyroclasm make the affinity matchup much better. Also, I think if twin is still popular torpor orb isn't bad. SB slots depend heavily on the meta you expect, though. Personally I've never been a fan of discard in the board, but many people do like it.
I also tried out necrotic ooze and didn't find it as good as I wanted it to be. I love the card, but moved away from it.
I am on the fence between BR and BRU as well. I see benefits to each. The blue cards are powerful (visions, scheming, izzet charm) (I don't like Jace) but it has drawbacks. I think it has a lot to do with play style and what you hate losing to.
MD:
Change the third Borbor for another Worldspine Wurm (Wurm is better with TTB and Shoal)
Kick the U out of your manabase, no need for it, if you are not running any U cards (and no, Pact doesn't count), so kick Watery Grave and Gemstone Mine, add 2 Blackcleave Cliffs. Forbidden Orchird is borderline playable, would change it for a Blood Crypt.
SB:
Would kick Ooze, Revival and Inquisition, add 1 TTB (for the BGx match-up you want all 4 of them), 2 Moon and 2 Shatterstorm
Affinity is a rather rough match-up (they are on average slightly faster than we), so you really want a sweeper against hem (Shatterstorm).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)