So if you had to make the mana base without fetches how would you do it?
Rly? The 4 Bloodstain Mires are not that expensive to skip them...
However, due to how the deck work, there are no really good replacements, cause fast lands are garbage for TTB, Checklands don't go well with the Temples and more basics are not helpful either.
How do you board vs GDS? I know chalice is a must but do you add in the blood moons since they are greedy? I feel like I struggle with sidboarding in general
OTP: Chalice + Moon
OTD: Chalice + Axe
This is at least how I board against this deck. Moon is to slow otd that it can really matter, so it only comes in otp.
Greetings,
Kathal
that was more of a jab at fair decks and that i would never be caught dead playing fair
So if you had to make the mana base without fetches how would you do it?
Rly? The 4 Bloodstain Mires are not that expensive to skip them...
However, due to how the deck work, there are no really good replacements, cause fast lands are garbage for TTB, Checklands don't go well with the Temples and more basics are not helpful either.
How do you board vs GDS? I know chalice is a must but do you add in the blood moons since they are greedy? I feel like I struggle with sidboarding in general
OTP: Chalice + Moon
OTD: Chalice + Axe
This is at least how I board against this deck. Moon is to slow otd that it can really matter, so it only comes in otp.
Greetings,
Kathal
Meh its not really about not buying the fetches its that they are currently in my GDS deck and I hate having to desleeve and ***** every time I want to play this deck and I'm too cheap to buy a second playset of mires.
Overreact and destroy one of the best metagames they ever had? No. If something shows as "to dominant" at the PT they either will do nothing at the BR update or make an unban, which could harm that "dominant" deck.
Greetings,
Kathal
I completely agree that is what they should do, but think gds has had enough ban talk in the past that a dominant performance could easily provoke an over-reaction by wizards. The wording in their b&r was scary to me and they have been known to make stupid decisions.
So if you had to make the mana base without fetches how would you do it?
I'd probably start by maxing blood crypts and maybe another basic or two. I guess it depends what your starting point is. I'd probably do something like:
4 temple
4 crypt
3 blackcleave
5 swamp
2 mountain
1 Geier reach
Or maybe drop a blackcleave and crypt/Geier for one of each basic depending if you like Geier reach in the deck. It also depends if you're playing bloodmoon since the fetches help you get basic swamp. You could also use other black fetches and just take more damage when you have to shock a crypt more often.
I was gonna work on a sb guide, up never finished it. It's hard since so many people has different boards. Final nub had a quick guide a few pages back.
Personally I don't like hugs at all. I like tormenting voice better. I should try sign in blood. The worry is with how much life you lose.
And I'm having quite a lot of fun tweaking it. But the exact shell isnt that important here.
I see that most of you guys seem to be running 4 wurms, 4 shoals, and 2 borborygmos, instead of 4 emrakul and 6 other cards. I assume you guys have tested other versions? What is your reasoning for those cards?
To me, it seems that emrakul is going to be better than wurm or grislebrand in most situations.
When using through the breach, emrakul is usually game over, only burn can realistically rebuild.
Worldspine wurm is good, but weak to path, and things like the opponent untapping and playing ugin or storming off or killing you.
When using goryos, obviously emrakul has the advantage that it can actually be brought back.
It seems like it is cute, but less efficient to go through reanimating a grislebrand into shoal into SSG, discard outlet, borborygmos, goryos win, instead of just reanimating emrakul and attacking.
So what is it that I'm missing? are you playing very aggressive metas where you really value the 11 life?
In the primer, it seems like the main reason to move away from emrakul is to be able to win without combat because of twin. But twin isnt really relevant anymore.
Being able to splice onto arcane is not really a thing, if that slot is dedicated to desperate ritual, it is the same thing, if you use discard spells instead you can also fight through a counter, etc.
THere is a few reasons as to why I dislike the traditional Emrakul/Griselbrand shell vs the Borborygmos/Shoal combo, not in particular order:
1. It is soft to ensnaring bridges
2. It is soft to control shells with its inability to win at instant speed. There's a ton of those decks now (UW, Jeskai Tempo, Jeskai Control, Blue Moon Madcap/Kiki/Breach). If they don't have to respect your ability to win at instant speed, they will freely flash in snapcasters/cliques/Quellers at first chance and you have little ways to fight back other than discards and maybe defense grids. That you can't run Pacts of Negation is also unappealing.
3. When I ran Emrakul, I found that she doesn't finish the game on the spot in a surprising amount of games, including:
Dredge (they generally don't take 5 damages from lands, can rebuild easily)
Affinity (if you are breaching this in on turn 5 it's highly unlikely emrakul is enough)
Humans (vials/other swarmy things, clean mana base and freebooters/mantis riders)
Burn (likely to 1 shot in game 1, but you either need to pray they don't have deflecting palms post-board or wait until you can assemble discard+Emrakul)
Mardu Pyromancer (little self damage and soul/elemental tokens)
4. In that deck, Griselbrand is more of a delayed win condition and Emrakul, as discussed, isn't always guaranteed either. Griselbrand generally kills on the spot, and wurm and borby can be solo win conditions.
5. It makes your burn matchup significantly better
6. you get to run chalices
However, I've said in the thread before and don't dislike your idea - you'll just need to adjust your philosophy a bit and treat it less like a combo deck and more like a control-combo deck. I've been working on something similar to your list and the below. I would definitely jam 3 maindeck Blood Moons in that shell. I also don't think Kolaghan's Command does much for that deck. I would consider running removal or Cathartic Reunion in that slot personally.
I would be pretty surprised if Sign in Blood is Viable. It has a few things going against it: 1) it's not a discard outlet to enable the strongest aspect of our deck (Vengeance), and 4 Lootings simply isn't enough, 2) BB can be a real cost when you are casting faithless looting a lot on turn 1, and 3) the extra life loss works further to negate one of the advantages we that we have with a clean BR manabase.
That said, do let us know if it works out well.. This could be OK if you make certain changes to the 60, like including more Brutalities or Lightning Axes as additional discard outlets/combat the life loss.
Hey guys, I've been following this thread for a bit as the deck I like but don't get to play and would like to ask for your feedback on a project.
It's a website that features decklists from MTGO and large tournaments for meta analysis and deck building. It's similar in that aspect to MTG Goldfish or MTGTOP8, but I'd like to see if you guys think any features would make your current tools better. Below is our page for the Grishoalbrand specific deck, featuring this thread's own finalnub's 5th place list from the latest MTGO Challenge.
Here are a few ideas that are in the mix but not published yet. I'd be interested in which look the most appealing, keeping in mind that our target user base is semi competitive and higher players.
MTGO vs paper meta %s for different decks
Matchlog tool where you can enter match results + notes to see figures like win % vs decks and archetypes
Media section for users to post related videos, articles, etc on a given deck page
Thanks all. If it counts towards my rite of passage, I play the watered down Esper Goryo's list in decks > users. All hail Griselbrand.
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Speaking purely from my win percentage with regarding those two builds, I have a roughly 8% higher win percentage with the Shoal version, which is more than significant for me.
Also, Night's Whisper >>>>>>>>>> Sign in Blood
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hi guys!
I'm starting with the deck and i'm really enjoying it. Sorry for my english, but a I have some questions about the deck and i think this is the best place ^^
i'm playing with the following list:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Temple of Malice
2 Blackcleave
2 Blood Crypt
5 Swamp
1 Mountain
SB:
2 Blood Moon
2 Chalice
2 Pact of Negation
2 Shattering Spree
2 Anger of the gods
2 IoK
1 Bontu's last reckoning
1 Boseiju.
1 Emrakul.
I don't like cathartic in this deck. Many times i don't have 2 cards to discard, cause we need a lot of pieces to go off. i prefer Tormenting voice. However, i think that the slots of 3 Tormenting and 2 Collective brutality are still open. What do you think about it? maybe Noxious revival? something better?
About the SB, is better a 3 Bmoon and 3 Pact? There are any other cards that i could put ou take of?
Sorry for that many questions, but i'm excited with this deck and trying to improve all that I can.
In the current meta, how do you sideboard? Wich cases do you side out goryo's or Griselbrand? which are the lines that we can take?
Regarding your deck, it is already quite similar to the "stock" list to say it this way. Basically the Stock list is your list - the Tormenting Voices and Brutality, add 2 Desperate Rituals and the rest are "flex spots" to say it this way.
By the way, I advise you to run Desperate Ritual for three reasons:
a) It allows earlier TTB and Blood Moons from the SB
b) It allows to generate absurd amount of mana using the splice mechanic on Shoals
c) It is an arcane card which you can splice stuff on (I regularly splice TTB on them against Control, since it "only" costs 6 mana)
How many depends on your taste. Some say, that 2 is enough, some want the playset. I personally prefer 2 and instead play 2 more interaction spell (1 Brutality and 1 Lighting Axe).
Regarding Tormenting Voice vs Hugs, they are both quite even in that deck, Tormenting Voice is way better for low resource games while Hugs might allow you to dig deeper faster.
Some like Voice more, some like Hugs more, in the end they are quite even.
Regarding Noxious Revival, it is a card you can play as a one off in the flex spot since it allows some cool things. However, it falls (at least for me) in the "interaction" slot and I do not know, if I would want it over something like Brutality atm.
The side board is kinda a mess, since both Boseiju (to slow (GDS) and there is to much GQ currently that it would matter against the decks, where it is really good (Control)) and IoK are rather medicore.
I would instead play the third Chalice, 1 Brutality and 1 Lightning Axe.
The Emrakul itself is also debatable, since it is a quite clunky card itself, but if you want to play her, feel free (never felt the need for her though).
Hope, I could help you (no SB guide, cause I have no time sadly atm).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I completely forgot the rituals. But i play with 2 and 1 Manamorphose on maindeck.
I'm really in doubt about the sideboard. I'm new at competitive Magic and have a lot of difficult to siboard.
do you thing
As cantrip, i'm playing 4 Whisper, 4 Looting and 3 Voice. It's a good number?
I have 2 flex slot on deck and testing somethings. do you think it's better 2 brutality, 1 brutality and 1 axe, 2 axe or maybe a 4th voice?
I like Emrakul in side because some leylines. Unfortunately, our deck can't deal with that.
In wich cases or against decks we sideout the goryo's vengeance? and how much?
I'm gonna play a important tournament here in Brazil called CLM. I got my spot on tournament playing with Storm (wich is my pet deck). But i'm thinking play Grishoalbrand on the tournament. Do you think that still a competitive deck?
And wich version is better? Grixis or BR?
Do you know any article with some sideboard tips/guide?
Thanks a lot for the help! It's really usefull and helps me a lot ^^
I completely forgot the rituals. But i play with 2 and 1 Manamorphose on maindeck.
I'm really in doubt about the sideboard. I'm new at competitive Magic and have a lot of difficult to siboard.
do you thing
As cantrip, i'm playing 4 Whisper, 4 Looting and 3 Voice. It's a good number?
I have 2 flex slot on deck and testing somethings. do you think it's better 2 brutality, 1 brutality and 1 axe, 2 axe or maybe a 4th voice?
I like Emrakul in side because some leylines. Unfortunately, our deck can't deal with that.
In wich cases or against decks we sideout the goryo's vengeance? and how much?
I'm gonna play a important tournament here in Brazil called CLM. I got my spot on tournament playing with Storm (wich is my pet deck). But i'm thinking play Grishoalbrand on the tournament. Do you think that still a competitive deck?
And wich version is better? Grixis or BR?
Do you know any article with some sideboard tips/guide?
Thanks a lot for the help! It's really usefull and helps me a lot ^^
I really like 1 Brutality and 1 Lightning axe. Lightning axe is a bit faster when discarding and kills Angler/Tasigur and pmuch anything else. Brutality can help clear the way to go off the following turn.
I honestly have never boarded out Goryos but boarding is one of the weaker parts of my game currently
I dont think we are in a bad spot right now with Grishoalbrand but in a larger tournament GDS will flood the scene and that is not an easy match up I think Im around 30-40% win rate against it.
I prefer the BR version currently since the meta seems to have a greedy landbase currently and blood moon wins games.
If someone brings in a leyline against me and has it on turn 0 I feel like I have a clear plan on WSW kill
One tip I would give is if the deck you are playing against dosent have Snaps or graveyard interaction(Blood Gast,Snap,dredge Etc.)Always board in shattering spree for the Grafdiggers cage they will 100% bring in. Shattering spree seems to be quite a bit worst against spellbomb and relic for obvious reason
Round 1 vs. Human Company. The deck that I loaned out to a friend. Unlucky pairing. In the first game, he misses his 2nd land drop, so only has Thalia, Guardian of Thraben on turn 3. Champion of the Parish was on turn 1. He gets me to 10 life, but I get Griselbrand, exile an SSG for Nourishing Shoal, and prepare to Goryo's Vengeance Borborygmos Enraged for lethal next turn. It gets there. In the next game, he doesn't find Rest in Peace, but gets double Kitesail Freebooter, nabbing Goryo's Vengeance. I do Anger of the Gods and get my Goryo's Vengeance back. I do a Nourishing Shoal, but don't get another and am at 2 life. He tells me he has an out to kill me next turn even though I have Goryo's Vengeance Borborygmos Enraged splice Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm. He is empty handed and has an empty field because of Anger. He draws...Collected Company into double Thalias (3/2 and 2/1). It's not good enough. He shows me the out, which he said I should know. I forgot...Kambal, Consul of Allocation. Duh! 2-0.
Round 2 vs. 4 Color Shadow. Both games go like this. Double Thoughtseize or TS/IoK, turn 3 Shadow, Temur Battle Rage, and I kept a 1 lander that stayed at 1 land in the first game. My out was drawing a land AND Goryo's Vengeance. Can't draw both of those in one turn. In the next game, I just don't have the pieces. I need to top deck Goryo's Vengeance, but I have 1 turn because he does Stubborn Denial, IoK, AND Temur Battle Rage for lethal on turn 4. 0-2.
Round 3 vs. Mono Blue Merfolk. He mulls to 5. I mull to 6. He gets some pressure and I am 2 turns from dying, so I shock in Blood Crypt and play Through the Breach after a Desperate Ritual. I am tapped out, so he sacrifices Cursecatcher. I exile SSG to pay and I win from there. In the next game, he puts some pressure and I have to go with Wurm again. He ends up 1 damage short of unblockable damage after casting a 2nd Lord of Atlantis. I guess he could have played Merrow Reejery a turn earlier, but played Kira, Glass Spinner instead. He probably did this because he saw my main board Collective Brutality singleton in the first game, which I sided out anyway. He didn't know if the deck played Fatal Push or Lightning Bolt. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Zoo. This guy has shown a 67.5% win percentage with Zoo. It's all he plays and he constantly makes meta changes. He gets down Wild Nacatl and then Domri Rade, which is really slow for this guy. It gives me time to Breach a Griselbrand and win. In the next game, he laughs. I am guessing because he has the "infamous" Wild Nacatl into double Wild Nacatl on the play. For some background, I complain about this hand because for 2 months at a store on Tuesday nights, his deck was literally the only losses I had with Grishoalbrand, except 1 other loss. He plays Sacred Foundry on turn 2, which surprises me because double Nacatl doesn't exist anymore. He does Gaddock Teeg, which he now has 3 of in his SB. It makes it tougher, but I still go off after Goryo's Vengeance, exile SSG, Manamorphose to another Black and Bontu's Last Reckoning. I do Borborygmos Enraged next turn for lethal. 2-0.
I finish 3-1, which was pretty good after the roflstomping in the Round 2.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I go to the same LGS as FoodChainGoblins, and this is how my FNM went:
Round 1 vs. Infect: 2-1.
Game 3, he doesn't find a second land until turn 4, and I don't find a kill until turn 6. It was a lot of draw-go, but I eventually found the kill.
Round 2 vs. Abzan: 2-1.
I play Bloodmoon in game 2 and proceed to just get ripped apart by discard spells and die from his basic swamp. In game 3, top decking a Bloodmoon after his IoK locks him down to a basic swamp and basic forest. He has a 2/3 goyf as his only threat, giving me plenty of time to find 5 lands, TTB, and both Worm and Griselbrand. When I find the 5th land I slam TTB to put in Worm (he was at 18 at this point) before picking it back up after realizing I'd be dead to Maelstrom Pulse (which I know he has in deck - incidentally I found out after the game that he also had 2 Engineered Explosives he sided in). Instead I waited until his end step to put Griselbrand in and kill him on the next turn.
Round 3 vs 4 Color Shadow (This is the same person from FoodChainGoblins' round 2): Draw.
Friend of mine. I feel like I have a bad match up, he feels like I get lucky a lot. We decide to draw.
Round 4 vs Elves: 2-1.
Game 1 he does Elf things and I can't find the kill fast enough. Game 2 he goes to 4 cards and still would have killed me on turn 4 if he'd gotten to it. Game 3 he Thoughtseizes me to see TTB, 2x Anger of the Gods, Lightning Axe, 2x Night's Whisper, and 2 lands. I take the game on turn 4 after finding another TTB, a Wurm, using the Lightning Axe, and killing 3 creatures with Anger.
Ended 3-0-1.
I have 1 Noxious Revival in the main deck, which has been performing very well for me both as another green card for Shoal and to flip things back on top of my deck during the combo turn.
I've been very unimpressed with Cathartic Reunion in this deck. Next week I'm going to try subbing in Tormenting Voice instead.
Hi guys!
Today I played a local league, did 4-0 and become the champion with the Grishialbrand deck
G1: 4 Colors DS. Game 1 I go until the end and when i was at 2 life and he at, he bolted me, i respond and he bolted me again. Game 2 i combo off turn 2 and Game 3 a Chalice for 1 in turn 2 was enough to win with no problrmas
G2: Jeskai Geist. Game 1 he started and played a Colonnade. I played a mountain and a looting discarding a Grisel. he played a fetch and pass. I played a land and pass. When he crack the fetch, i Respond reanimating Grisel and won drawing a lot of card and breaching a Borborygmos, all in response. I just did that on turn 2 because i already had a shoal and 2 Wurms in my hand. game 2 I loose, didn't remember very well the game. G3 i reanimate a Grisel on 4, but couldn't find the wincons. So i left my opp with 10 life and hold on hand 2 pact, a wurm and a breach. Won attacking with the wurm with 2 backup counter on hand.
G3: UR Breach: G1 he played a breach and i respond with my breach -> Grisel -> Draw -> Victory. Game 2 he Breach in turn 4, Molten rain my Boseiju in my 2 and won. If i didn't lost my land I would won same way the game 1. Game 3 I breach a Grisel on pass to my turn 5. He let resolve the breach ( because i casted it with boseiju) and Cryptic command for bounce Grisel and draw. I respond drawing 7. Find a pact and a morphose. Counter the bounce, payed the pact with 4 mana + SSG + Morphose and won with Grisel + Borb + lands.
G4: Affinity. I just ignore him G1 and G2 and win the 2 games on turn 3
The deck is REALLY GOOD. I'm thinking go with it on the great championship that will happen here in Brazil.
I'm yet not sure about the side and how sideboarding.
My SB:
3 Pact
3 B Moon
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Boseiju
2 Anger
1 Bontu's last reckoning
2 Shattering Spree
1 Collective Brutality
Someone could help me with the side in and side out in the games? against blue, i side out the 3 tormenting voice and something else. Most of times, a Goryos, Never sideout Whisper. This card is a nightmare for the blue decks. Against Afiinity, 1 Breach and some Whispers, for the speed and the amount of damage that the matchup calls.
What do you think. Could we build a sideboard guide together for this deck and his variants?
i went 6-2 for 13th in the f2f vancouver open today. i played the matchups bingo expertly, except i missed the memo that infect is still a thing. the top 8 had 2 infect decks. weird field. I'll write a report later
Anyone up for Ghalta, Primal Hunter instead of Wurm?
Pro: Legendary target for Goryo and 1 Life more with Shoal
Con: Less damage with Breach and you have no tokens
Any suggestions?
I've been thinking about it since it was spoiled, and ultimately I don't think it's worth it. The issue is that the extra life from Shoal doesn't matter that much, since we already can get 3 activations from 2 Wurm Shoals. And the damage is a lot less, so it hurts the "Plan C" of just smacking with a Wurm and leaving behind lethal tokens. Another issue is that being legendary for Goryo's means you have the same "Do I keep it in hand or discard it" tension that you have with Griselbrand, instead of always wanting it in hand like you do with Wurm.
That being said, I think it's worth testing in actual games, since the lowered damage might be mitigated by having more ways to cheat it into play. The extra life could be valuable as well, since I have gone off several times at 17 life, and getting 12 from the first shoal would open up an extra activation (2 down to 3, then up to 15 meaning you can do 2 more).
Case 1: You draw a Borbor and you can only continue comboing by using Shoal, pitching him (happens quite regularly btw). This takes away your instant speed win con.
Case 2: You draw Pact as the sole card to continue comboing. Now you can Pact for Wurm, pitch it and continue this way. You still have a single Borbor in the deck, so you can still win with Instant speed (or on the spot). Only problem is, when you fizzle and thus die to the upkeep trigger.
Case 3: You have both, which is the best case since you can tutor a Wurm AND already have the Borbor in hand.
No Grisel combo
Case 1: You cast Looting and draw Borbor. You can now ditch him and reanimate him later by using Goryo's. If you have drawn a Pact instead here, you cannot do this line.
Case 2: You draw a Borbor with TTB, you can TTB Borbor to clean the board/win on the spot
Case 3: You draw a Pact with TTB, you can Pact for Wurm and try to win this way. Problem: You only get one attack in, since you will likely be not able to pay for the Pact trigger. This is especially problematic when the opponent has open mana which represents Path or other removal (even a Vapor Snag "kills" you this way). Same can be said for counters.
Case 4: You have Pact and Goryo's. You cannot tutor for Borbor, discard him in the clean up step and than reanimate him to attack/ditch lands, since you will die to the upkeep trigger first. If you have a discard outlet ready, than nothing changes.
Overall, there are a lot of cases, where Pact is strictly worse than the second Borbor. It has a bigger high-high but also a way worse-worse. However, what you can do is run a Pact along the two Borbors. Also, keep in mind, that Pact is green so you can ditch it to Shoal for some splice action.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Regarding the legandary Dino, I would only play him in addition to Wurm or Borbor, since he is worse than both of them. Otherwise, a 3/2 split between Wurms and that Dino could also work.
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
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Meh its not really about not buying the fetches its that they are currently in my GDS deck and I hate having to desleeve and ***** every time I want to play this deck and I'm too cheap to buy a second playset of mires.
I completely agree that is what they should do, but think gds has had enough ban talk in the past that a dominant performance could easily provoke an over-reaction by wizards. The wording in their b&r was scary to me and they have been known to make stupid decisions.
I'd probably start by maxing blood crypts and maybe another basic or two. I guess it depends what your starting point is. I'd probably do something like:
4 temple
4 crypt
3 blackcleave
5 swamp
2 mountain
1 Geier reach
Or maybe drop a blackcleave and crypt/Geier for one of each basic depending if you like Geier reach in the deck. It also depends if you're playing bloodmoon since the fetches help you get basic swamp. You could also use other black fetches and just take more damage when you have to shock a crypt more often.
Personally I don't like hugs at all. I like tormenting voice better. I should try sign in blood. The worry is with how much life you lose.
THere is a few reasons as to why I dislike the traditional Emrakul/Griselbrand shell vs the Borborygmos/Shoal combo, not in particular order:
1. It is soft to ensnaring bridges
2. It is soft to control shells with its inability to win at instant speed. There's a ton of those decks now (UW, Jeskai Tempo, Jeskai Control, Blue Moon Madcap/Kiki/Breach). If they don't have to respect your ability to win at instant speed, they will freely flash in snapcasters/cliques/Quellers at first chance and you have little ways to fight back other than discards and maybe defense grids. That you can't run Pacts of Negation is also unappealing.
3. When I ran Emrakul, I found that she doesn't finish the game on the spot in a surprising amount of games, including:
Dredge (they generally don't take 5 damages from lands, can rebuild easily)
Affinity (if you are breaching this in on turn 5 it's highly unlikely emrakul is enough)
Humans (vials/other swarmy things, clean mana base and freebooters/mantis riders)
Burn (likely to 1 shot in game 1, but you either need to pray they don't have deflecting palms post-board or wait until you can assemble discard+Emrakul)
Mardu Pyromancer (little self damage and soul/elemental tokens)
4. In that deck, Griselbrand is more of a delayed win condition and Emrakul, as discussed, isn't always guaranteed either. Griselbrand generally kills on the spot, and wurm and borby can be solo win conditions.
5. It makes your burn matchup significantly better
6. you get to run chalices
However, I've said in the thread before and don't dislike your idea - you'll just need to adjust your philosophy a bit and treat it less like a combo deck and more like a control-combo deck. I've been working on something similar to your list and the below. I would definitely jam 3 maindeck Blood Moons in that shell. I also don't think Kolaghan's Command does much for that deck. I would consider running removal or Cathartic Reunion in that slot personally.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/737254#online
That said, do let us know if it works out well.. This could be OK if you make certain changes to the 60, like including more Brutalities or Lightning Axes as additional discard outlets/combat the life loss.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
It's a website that features decklists from MTGO and large tournaments for meta analysis and deck building. It's similar in that aspect to MTG Goldfish or MTGTOP8, but I'd like to see if you guys think any features would make your current tools better. Below is our page for the Grishoalbrand specific deck, featuring this thread's own finalnub's 5th place list from the latest MTGO Challenge.
Metacall.gg - Grishoalbrand
Here are a few ideas that are in the mix but not published yet. I'd be interested in which look the most appealing, keeping in mind that our target user base is semi competitive and higher players.
Thanks all. If it counts towards my rite of passage, I play the watered down Esper Goryo's list in decks > users. All hail Griselbrand.
Metacall Discord - Modern MTG chat for decks, archetypes and tournament play.
Also, Night's Whisper >>>>>>>>>> Sign in Blood
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I'm starting with the deck and i'm really enjoying it. Sorry for my english, but a I have some questions about the deck and i think this is the best place ^^
i'm playing with the following list:
4 Grisel
4 Wurm
4 SSG
2 Borborygmos
4 Vengeance
4 Breach
4 Shoal
4 Night Wishper
4 Looting
3 Tormenting Voice
2 Brutality
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Temple of Malice
2 Blackcleave
2 Blood Crypt
5 Swamp
1 Mountain
SB:
2 Blood Moon
2 Chalice
2 Pact of Negation
2 Shattering Spree
2 Anger of the gods
2 IoK
1 Bontu's last reckoning
1 Boseiju.
1 Emrakul.
I don't like cathartic in this deck. Many times i don't have 2 cards to discard, cause we need a lot of pieces to go off. i prefer Tormenting voice. However, i think that the slots of 3 Tormenting and 2 Collective brutality are still open. What do you think about it? maybe Noxious revival? something better?
About the SB, is better a 3 Bmoon and 3 Pact? There are any other cards that i could put ou take of?
Sorry for that many questions, but i'm excited with this deck and trying to improve all that I can.
In the current meta, how do you sideboard? Wich cases do you side out goryo's or Griselbrand? which are the lines that we can take?
thanks a lot for helping!!
Regarding your deck, it is already quite similar to the "stock" list to say it this way. Basically the Stock list is your list - the Tormenting Voices and Brutality, add 2 Desperate Rituals and the rest are "flex spots" to say it this way.
By the way, I advise you to run Desperate Ritual for three reasons:
a) It allows earlier TTB and Blood Moons from the SB
b) It allows to generate absurd amount of mana using the splice mechanic on Shoals
c) It is an arcane card which you can splice stuff on (I regularly splice TTB on them against Control, since it "only" costs 6 mana)
How many depends on your taste. Some say, that 2 is enough, some want the playset. I personally prefer 2 and instead play 2 more interaction spell (1 Brutality and 1 Lighting Axe).
Regarding Tormenting Voice vs Hugs, they are both quite even in that deck, Tormenting Voice is way better for low resource games while Hugs might allow you to dig deeper faster.
Some like Voice more, some like Hugs more, in the end they are quite even.
Regarding Noxious Revival, it is a card you can play as a one off in the flex spot since it allows some cool things. However, it falls (at least for me) in the "interaction" slot and I do not know, if I would want it over something like Brutality atm.
The side board is kinda a mess, since both Boseiju (to slow (GDS) and there is to much GQ currently that it would matter against the decks, where it is really good (Control)) and IoK are rather medicore.
I would instead play the third Chalice, 1 Brutality and 1 Lightning Axe.
The Emrakul itself is also debatable, since it is a quite clunky card itself, but if you want to play her, feel free (never felt the need for her though).
Hope, I could help you (no SB guide, cause I have no time sadly atm).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Thanks a lot for the helping
I completely forgot the rituals. But i play with 2 and 1 Manamorphose on maindeck.
I'm really in doubt about the sideboard. I'm new at competitive Magic and have a lot of difficult to siboard.
do you thing
As cantrip, i'm playing 4 Whisper, 4 Looting and 3 Voice. It's a good number?
I have 2 flex slot on deck and testing somethings. do you think it's better 2 brutality, 1 brutality and 1 axe, 2 axe or maybe a 4th voice?
I like Emrakul in side because some leylines. Unfortunately, our deck can't deal with that.
In wich cases or against decks we sideout the goryo's vengeance? and how much?
I'm gonna play a important tournament here in Brazil called CLM. I got my spot on tournament playing with Storm (wich is my pet deck). But i'm thinking play Grishoalbrand on the tournament. Do you think that still a competitive deck?
And wich version is better? Grixis or BR?
Do you know any article with some sideboard tips/guide?
Thanks a lot for the help! It's really usefull and helps me a lot ^^
I really like 1 Brutality and 1 Lightning axe. Lightning axe is a bit faster when discarding and kills Angler/Tasigur and pmuch anything else. Brutality can help clear the way to go off the following turn.
I honestly have never boarded out Goryos but boarding is one of the weaker parts of my game currently
I dont think we are in a bad spot right now with Grishoalbrand but in a larger tournament GDS will flood the scene and that is not an easy match up I think Im around 30-40% win rate against it.
I prefer the BR version currently since the meta seems to have a greedy landbase currently and blood moon wins games.
If someone brings in a leyline against me and has it on turn 0 I feel like I have a clear plan on WSW kill
One tip I would give is if the deck you are playing against dosent have Snaps or graveyard interaction(Blood Gast,Snap,dredge Etc.)Always board in shattering spree for the Grafdiggers cage they will 100% bring in. Shattering spree seems to be quite a bit worst against spellbomb and relic for obvious reason
Round 1 vs. Human Company. The deck that I loaned out to a friend. Unlucky pairing. In the first game, he misses his 2nd land drop, so only has Thalia, Guardian of Thraben on turn 3. Champion of the Parish was on turn 1. He gets me to 10 life, but I get Griselbrand, exile an SSG for Nourishing Shoal, and prepare to Goryo's Vengeance Borborygmos Enraged for lethal next turn. It gets there. In the next game, he doesn't find Rest in Peace, but gets double Kitesail Freebooter, nabbing Goryo's Vengeance. I do Anger of the Gods and get my Goryo's Vengeance back. I do a Nourishing Shoal, but don't get another and am at 2 life. He tells me he has an out to kill me next turn even though I have Goryo's Vengeance Borborygmos Enraged splice Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm. He is empty handed and has an empty field because of Anger. He draws...Collected Company into double Thalias (3/2 and 2/1). It's not good enough. He shows me the out, which he said I should know. I forgot...Kambal, Consul of Allocation. Duh! 2-0.
Round 2 vs. 4 Color Shadow. Both games go like this. Double Thoughtseize or TS/IoK, turn 3 Shadow, Temur Battle Rage, and I kept a 1 lander that stayed at 1 land in the first game. My out was drawing a land AND Goryo's Vengeance. Can't draw both of those in one turn. In the next game, I just don't have the pieces. I need to top deck Goryo's Vengeance, but I have 1 turn because he does Stubborn Denial, IoK, AND Temur Battle Rage for lethal on turn 4. 0-2.
Round 3 vs. Mono Blue Merfolk. He mulls to 5. I mull to 6. He gets some pressure and I am 2 turns from dying, so I shock in Blood Crypt and play Through the Breach after a Desperate Ritual. I am tapped out, so he sacrifices Cursecatcher. I exile SSG to pay and I win from there. In the next game, he puts some pressure and I have to go with Wurm again. He ends up 1 damage short of unblockable damage after casting a 2nd Lord of Atlantis. I guess he could have played Merrow Reejery a turn earlier, but played Kira, Glass Spinner instead. He probably did this because he saw my main board Collective Brutality singleton in the first game, which I sided out anyway. He didn't know if the deck played Fatal Push or Lightning Bolt. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Zoo. This guy has shown a 67.5% win percentage with Zoo. It's all he plays and he constantly makes meta changes. He gets down Wild Nacatl and then Domri Rade, which is really slow for this guy. It gives me time to Breach a Griselbrand and win. In the next game, he laughs. I am guessing because he has the "infamous" Wild Nacatl into double Wild Nacatl on the play. For some background, I complain about this hand because for 2 months at a store on Tuesday nights, his deck was literally the only losses I had with Grishoalbrand, except 1 other loss. He plays Sacred Foundry on turn 2, which surprises me because double Nacatl doesn't exist anymore. He does Gaddock Teeg, which he now has 3 of in his SB. It makes it tougher, but I still go off after Goryo's Vengeance, exile SSG, Manamorphose to another Black and Bontu's Last Reckoning. I do Borborygmos Enraged next turn for lethal. 2-0.
I finish 3-1, which was pretty good after the roflstomping in the Round 2.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Round 1 vs. Infect: 2-1.
Game 3, he doesn't find a second land until turn 4, and I don't find a kill until turn 6. It was a lot of draw-go, but I eventually found the kill.
Round 2 vs. Abzan: 2-1.
I play Bloodmoon in game 2 and proceed to just get ripped apart by discard spells and die from his basic swamp. In game 3, top decking a Bloodmoon after his IoK locks him down to a basic swamp and basic forest. He has a 2/3 goyf as his only threat, giving me plenty of time to find 5 lands, TTB, and both Worm and Griselbrand. When I find the 5th land I slam TTB to put in Worm (he was at 18 at this point) before picking it back up after realizing I'd be dead to Maelstrom Pulse (which I know he has in deck - incidentally I found out after the game that he also had 2 Engineered Explosives he sided in). Instead I waited until his end step to put Griselbrand in and kill him on the next turn.
Round 3 vs 4 Color Shadow (This is the same person from FoodChainGoblins' round 2): Draw.
Friend of mine. I feel like I have a bad match up, he feels like I get lucky a lot. We decide to draw.
Round 4 vs Elves: 2-1.
Game 1 he does Elf things and I can't find the kill fast enough. Game 2 he goes to 4 cards and still would have killed me on turn 4 if he'd gotten to it. Game 3 he Thoughtseizes me to see TTB, 2x Anger of the Gods, Lightning Axe, 2x Night's Whisper, and 2 lands. I take the game on turn 4 after finding another TTB, a Wurm, using the Lightning Axe, and killing 3 creatures with Anger.
Ended 3-0-1.
I have 1 Noxious Revival in the main deck, which has been performing very well for me both as another green card for Shoal and to flip things back on top of my deck during the combo turn.
I've been very unimpressed with Cathartic Reunion in this deck. Next week I'm going to try subbing in Tormenting Voice instead.
Today I played a local league, did 4-0 and become the champion with the Grishialbrand deck
G1: 4 Colors DS. Game 1 I go until the end and when i was at 2 life and he at, he bolted me, i respond and he bolted me again. Game 2 i combo off turn 2 and Game 3 a Chalice for 1 in turn 2 was enough to win with no problrmas
G2: Jeskai Geist. Game 1 he started and played a Colonnade. I played a mountain and a looting discarding a Grisel. he played a fetch and pass. I played a land and pass. When he crack the fetch, i Respond reanimating Grisel and won drawing a lot of card and breaching a Borborygmos, all in response. I just did that on turn 2 because i already had a shoal and 2 Wurms in my hand. game 2 I loose, didn't remember very well the game. G3 i reanimate a Grisel on 4, but couldn't find the wincons. So i left my opp with 10 life and hold on hand 2 pact, a wurm and a breach. Won attacking with the wurm with 2 backup counter on hand.
G3: UR Breach: G1 he played a breach and i respond with my breach -> Grisel -> Draw -> Victory. Game 2 he Breach in turn 4, Molten rain my Boseiju in my 2 and won. If i didn't lost my land I would won same way the game 1. Game 3 I breach a Grisel on pass to my turn 5. He let resolve the breach ( because i casted it with boseiju) and Cryptic command for bounce Grisel and draw. I respond drawing 7. Find a pact and a morphose. Counter the bounce, payed the pact with 4 mana + SSG + Morphose and won with Grisel + Borb + lands.
G4: Affinity. I just ignore him G1 and G2 and win the 2 games on turn 3
The deck is REALLY GOOD. I'm thinking go with it on the great championship that will happen here in Brazil.
I'm yet not sure about the side and how sideboarding.
My SB:
3 Pact
3 B Moon
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Boseiju
2 Anger
1 Bontu's last reckoning
2 Shattering Spree
1 Collective Brutality
Someone could help me with the side in and side out in the games? against blue, i side out the 3 tormenting voice and something else. Most of times, a Goryos, Never sideout Whisper. This card is a nightmare for the blue decks. Against Afiinity, 1 Breach and some Whispers, for the speed and the amount of damage that the matchup calls.
What do you think. Could we build a sideboard guide together for this deck and his variants?
Thanks a lot!
i went 6-2 for 13th in the f2f vancouver open today. i played the matchups bingo expertly, except i missed the memo that infect is still a thing. the top 8 had 2 infect decks. weird field. I'll write a report later
I've been thinking about it since it was spoiled, and ultimately I don't think it's worth it. The issue is that the extra life from Shoal doesn't matter that much, since we already can get 3 activations from 2 Wurm Shoals. And the damage is a lot less, so it hurts the "Plan C" of just smacking with a Wurm and leaving behind lethal tokens. Another issue is that being legendary for Goryo's means you have the same "Do I keep it in hand or discard it" tension that you have with Griselbrand, instead of always wanting it in hand like you do with Wurm.
That being said, I think it's worth testing in actual games, since the lowered damage might be mitigated by having more ways to cheat it into play. The extra life could be valuable as well, since I have gone off several times at 17 life, and getting 12 from the first shoal would open up an extra activation (2 down to 3, then up to 15 meaning you can do 2 more).
Case 1: You draw a Borbor and you can only continue comboing by using Shoal, pitching him (happens quite regularly btw). This takes away your instant speed win con.
Case 2: You draw Pact as the sole card to continue comboing. Now you can Pact for Wurm, pitch it and continue this way. You still have a single Borbor in the deck, so you can still win with Instant speed (or on the spot). Only problem is, when you fizzle and thus die to the upkeep trigger.
Case 3: You have both, which is the best case since you can tutor a Wurm AND already have the Borbor in hand.
No Grisel combo
Case 1: You cast Looting and draw Borbor. You can now ditch him and reanimate him later by using Goryo's. If you have drawn a Pact instead here, you cannot do this line.
Case 2: You draw a Borbor with TTB, you can TTB Borbor to clean the board/win on the spot
Case 3: You draw a Pact with TTB, you can Pact for Wurm and try to win this way. Problem: You only get one attack in, since you will likely be not able to pay for the Pact trigger. This is especially problematic when the opponent has open mana which represents Path or other removal (even a Vapor Snag "kills" you this way). Same can be said for counters.
Case 4: You have Pact and Goryo's. You cannot tutor for Borbor, discard him in the clean up step and than reanimate him to attack/ditch lands, since you will die to the upkeep trigger first. If you have a discard outlet ready, than nothing changes.
Overall, there are a lot of cases, where Pact is strictly worse than the second Borbor. It has a bigger high-high but also a way worse-worse. However, what you can do is run a Pact along the two Borbors. Also, keep in mind, that Pact is green so you can ditch it to Shoal for some splice action.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Regarding the legandary Dino, I would only play him in addition to Wurm or Borbor, since he is worse than both of them. Otherwise, a 3/2 split between Wurms and that Dino could also work.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)