What do you guys think is the best way to build a straight R/G version with Combat Celebrant and Kiki?
Company and Evolution?
Chord and Company?
Chord and Evolution?
And what value creatures can we play in just R/G that are good?
I like staying straight R/G as we can play 4 Ghost Quarter and really help our big mana matchups
I tried to take an early stab at it. A glaring problem is that rg has no way to deal with unboltable creatures, which is terrible in a world of death shadow. I took the ghost quarter plan to the next level, adding trophy mage and crucible, but that is probably terrible in most matchups. Overall the deck feels a bit like a RG valakut deck with no clock, which is not great. Any ideas?
2-2 to to tonight.
1-2 tron had to mull to 4 all 3 games before seeing 1 land, g3 locked myself out with my own magus..
2-0 affinity
1-2 grixis delver. Had a rough first game having to mull to 3 for a land. Still almost won.
G3 had I remember I put in a card for the MU..i would've won.
2-0 affinty
Too many play mistakes last few days..its costed me like 10 games..
I think the Vizier of Remedies is the way to go with 3-4 finks and 4 evo + 2 chords
It can combo on t3 (Vizier + druid + chord/duskwatch recruiter) and Reveilark can get both combo pieces from grave alone unlike celebrant, Renegade Rallier can get each combo piece out of grave aswell.
Vizier of Remedies + Finks is good on its own (agree vizier's 2/1 for 2 is not that impresive but it is still on the curve) and with evo you can win again with infinite mana + chord or with duskwatch recruiter + lets say walking balista. Duskwatch recruiter is playable in late and if he flips, P+K or Resto for 3 - sign me up.
Celebrant's additional combat phase does not give us much and 4/1 for 3 mana is not good imo.
Vizier of Menagerie might be worth trying but it does not help anything we are bad at. Its good card advantage and fixing but Kiki chord is bulit around card advantage since the beginning and I dont see why adding another 4 drop would help with bad matchups. There is a possibility to switch from Balista to him as he can allow us to cást every creature in our deck with infinite G and Duskwatch. Might be better on its own than balista (need to test though).
Overall I find this combo fast enough that we can have better matchups against tron, nauseam and scapeshift thanks to possible t3 combo and playing Evo in our deck that can get hate our of the deck much faster when needed.
I am starting with 2 Viziers/3 finks/4 evo /2 chords/2 druids
Let's test and discuss.
Vizier comb, is not the way to go.
I play a high ramp version of chord. And let me tell you, infinite green is only good if you have chord in hand and they have zero removal. The reason why my mass mans version works is because my critters have butts to put the Kardashian to shame on top of the curve everyone wants.
Infinite mana is mediocre, but the above a perfect curve is amazing, and I can make it any color.
Yes you can you counter by adding more cards that are good with infinite mana, but then most of those cards are bad in the situation where you do not have said infinite mana
Infinite mana wins with: Chord or Recruiter or Balista on top of classic Kiki+Angel with Evolutions that accidentaly works very well with finks + vizier
How is removal a problém? You chord for Duskwatch and simply play every green creature or win with ballista through removal
I wish you luck in testing.
I have personally found problems with what to do with large amounts of mana, but if you find a way to make it work.
Infinite mana wins with: Chord or Recruiter or Balista on top of classic Kiki+Angel with Evolutions that accidentaly works very well with finks + vizier
How is removal a problém? You chord for Duskwatch and simply play every green creature or win with ballista through removal
I wish you luck in testing.
I have personally found problems with what to do with large amounts of mana, but if you find a way to make it work.
I guess it works actually. Given infinite G mana are successful combo out and the hand has chord/recruiter/ballista could go for the win. Using infinite G mana to chord/recruit to cast an infinite power Ballista and simply remove that infinite counter and go for the kill. Even removal such as path can't stop this since we can respond the removal by slowly remove all counter in Ballista. But this doesn't safe in counterspell/discard heavy decks. And devoted druid or vizier are easy to remove also if shield doesn't active.
I really wanna play this deck however the primer is not in English so I am having trouble understanding the pros and cons of
KikiChord vs NahiriChord vs KikiEvolution vs KikiCompany
What makes each unique and what are each strength, what is the best for combo what is the best for midrange, etc etc
Thanks!
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UUUUU
Modern Decks: URGifts StormRU UBRGrixis ShadowRBU
The text for primers is just generic filler currently as each variant has been all over the place for some time and none of them are actually putting up results at the moment.
To answer your questions though:
Traditional Kiki Chord / Kiki Company in my opinion are best in a balanced meta, both have the ability to grind for days and combat most decks in the format.
Nahiri Chord is probably best in a Control/Midrange dominated meta.
Kiki Evolution / Kiki Company are best suited in a combo dominated meta having earlier access to toolbox creatures suited to slow down/soft lock most combo oriented decks.
I think all variants are equal dogs to big mana (Tron/Titan+Valakut decks). Eldritch Evolution is a terrible card in a Control dominated meta.
I'm not quite sure I'd say any version of the deck has a "good" match-up vs GX Tron in general. With a deck like this your match-ups against specific decks are only as good as the bullets you have access to.
Running Magus of the Moon vs. not running it and coming up against big mana is worth more than just 1-2 percentage points.
I'm not quite sure I'd say any version of the deck has a "good" match-up vs GX Tron in general. With a deck like this your match-ups against specific decks are only as good as the bullets you have access to.
Running Magus of the Moon vs. not running it and coming up against big mana is worth more than just 1-2 percentage points.
For GX tron to kills us.
It's either play Ugin or lose.
We don't care about karn, o stone, wurmcoil, any thing they can play past ugin. And even with Ugin if we play it right we can still win.
Every list should run 1 magus in main. It is to good vs a lot of decks.
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Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern RWGKiki's CastleRWG UB Turns UB GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Standard Kiki Chord.
As the aggro version, that's meant to get in fast.
Good vs midrange/aggro
Kiki evolution
Is better when you are playing tons of silver bullets.
Good vs combo/aggro
Kiki company.
When you want to flood the board for fast recovery/combo potentional
Good vs aggro, big mana, combo, has some trouble with control/discard.
All 3 versions have a good MU vs GX tron, but struggle with Eldrazi Tron.
Personally See 8 rack as the top worst MU for all 3 versions. All 3 are great, it's personal choice/playstyle for what is best for yoy
Traditional Kiki Chord is anything but an aggro deck.
Evolution is about access to bullets on earlier turns, not the number of bullets you're looking to play.
None of the versions have a positive record vs. G/x Tron Varaints.
8-rack is a test of resource management, but the deck is terrible against 2-for-1 bodies. Nor has it actually been relevant in Modern for some time.
It is the closet one of the lists to an aggro/midrange sort of plan.
Evolution you want more bullets to get to. Then the other lists.
And I am 12/14 vs G/X tron
Between my version and normal Kiki chord.
I find it one of the easier MU's.
The only reason Eldrazi Tron Sucks.
Ballista+Collar/All is dust, and can recover decent from Ghost Quarters/blood moon.
And 8 rack is almost never played, but I have two in My Meta. And even if you slowroll it, still is a hard hard MY.
I'm 0/13 vs it, only have won 2 games.
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Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern RWGKiki's CastleRWG UB Turns UB GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Standard Kiki Chord.
As the aggro version, that's meant to get in fast.
Good vs midrange/aggro
Kiki evolution
Is better when you are playing tons of silver bullets.
Good vs combo/aggro
Kiki company.
When you want to flood the board for fast recovery/combo potentional
Good vs aggro, big mana, combo, has some trouble with control/discard.
All 3 versions have a good MU vs GX tron, but struggle with Eldrazi Tron.
Personally See 8 rack as the top worst MU for all 3 versions. All 3 are great, it's personal choice/playstyle for what is best for yoy
Traditional Kiki Chord is anything but an aggro deck.
Evolution is about access to bullets on earlier turns, not the number of bullets you're looking to play.
None of the versions have a positive record vs. G/x Tron Varaints.
8-rack is a test of resource management, but the deck is terrible against 2-for-1 bodies. Nor has it actually been relevant in Modern for some time.
I agree with all of what Luda said. The nature of the evolution builds lends itself to higher cmc hate cards like linvala, but I think the density is the same because you are forced to play more value creatures for sacrificing like wall of omens.
I personally have always had trouble with Tron. O-stone is a beating, and at best takes a chord if you have access to a selfless spirit. As the game progresses it becomes more and more difficult to combo as the new Tron decks have a side plan of shredding your land base with ulamog, world breaker and karn.
8 rack can lock out games, but the deck top decks great, and any game I can get to four lands I feel confident. Btw I have maindecked a baloth for a while and that card is great in the matchup.
The eldrazi Tron deck plays one main deck all is dust, and I honestly only see that deck assemble Tron 1/4 games, but maybe that's just variance?
I run my list off 2-3 lands preferred. But I run more Mana Dorks then most lists, even in my more traditional list.
1 card to try for Anti Tron that makes life great, a tad of a mana sync but can shut down ugin.
Azorius Guildmage
This wins me most games vs tron, stony silence/Ancient grudge work decently well at slowing them.
And in my area, Eldrazi Lists run 2 all is dust/1 Ugin MB. On top of more in side, and ratchet bombs.
It's a grind fest as you can see from the video I posted.
Evo, you are forced to almost build the deck as a pod deck. But that is fine. Personally I view Evo as the weakest version. But there are metas it excels in.
But this Is why I love Kiki Chord decks, there is a near almost infinite way to build the deck, it will always have the ability to excel and be one of the best decks in the format because of it.
It is a tier 1.5+ and the last few months of all the very different lists rocking the meta has proven that.
Tron is a bad MU pre board (like for just all other midrange decks, they have a higher ceiling) and it depends on the bullets you have access to post board (but I would not dare to say favorable).
Evo version is the most aggressive because of the lines evo enables with voice, rallier and p&k.
@aggrosdemise I do not know for your list because you are more an other build than anything else. In fact the closest is wall mills. BTW you should definitely try phenax (if not already done)in your list.
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I tried to take an early stab at it. A glaring problem is that rg has no way to deal with unboltable creatures, which is terrible in a world of death shadow. I took the ghost quarter plan to the next level, adding trophy mage and crucible, but that is probably terrible in most matchups. Overall the deck feels a bit like a RG valakut deck with no clock, which is not great. Any ideas?
List is here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rg-kiki-chord-2/ (Sidisi is actually a Vizier of the Managerie)
4x wooded foothills
4x misty rainforest
4x ghost quarter
2x stomping ground
2x grove of the burnwillows
2x raging ravine
2x breeding pool
2x forest
1x mountain
26-creatures
4x birds of paradise
3x wall of roots
2x harsh mentor
1x scavenging ooze
1x spellskite
2x kitchen finks
1x combat celebrant
2x courser of kruphix
1x magus of the moon
2x eternal witness
1x tireless tracker
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x deceiver exarch
2x Vizier of the menagerie
1x kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
1x thragtusk
4x bolt
4x chord of calling
3x collected company
Side-15
2x echoing truth
3x unified will
2x reclamation sage
2x ancient grudge
2x relic of progenitus
1x ruric thar, the unbowed
1x harbinger of the hunt
2x chalice of the void
Just a very quick list,
White splash probably better.
Probably want 23 lands but meh.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
It's one sided. "Whenever an opponent"
Oh my. That changes that card a whole lot. Eidolons of Revels long lost cusin does not play fair.
4 birds
3 noble hierach
4 wild nacatle
4 voice of resurgence
4 tarmogoyf
4 combat celebrant
4 wooly thorcar
1 kiki-jiki
4 coco
4 e evolution
4 lightning bolt
Seems bad though. We are just slow zoo with a janky combo. Although the 4/1 with extra attackphase seems agressive and good.
Burn 2-1
Drazi tron: 1-1 (he had 1ho left)
Shadow: 0-2 (drew garbage)
Drazi tron: 1-2 (had 21 cards left last game. All removal/chords in there)
As always mute/2cd match is me vs drazi (which after watching 13-6 is not 8, it's 7. He sort of cheated/miscounted hence why he lived at 1...TILT)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/136342939
2-2 to to tonight.
1-2 tron had to mull to 4 all 3 games before seeing 1 land, g3 locked myself out with my own magus..
2-0 affinity
1-2 grixis delver. Had a rough first game having to mull to 3 for a land. Still almost won.
G3 had I remember I put in a card for the MU..i would've won.
2-0 affinty
Too many play mistakes last few days..its costed me like 10 games..
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
Vizier comb, is not the way to go.
I play a high ramp version of chord. And let me tell you, infinite green is only good if you have chord in hand and they have zero removal. The reason why my mass mans version works is because my critters have butts to put the Kardashian to shame on top of the curve everyone wants.
Infinite mana is mediocre, but the above a perfect curve is amazing, and I can make it any color.
Yes you can you counter by adding more cards that are good with infinite mana, but then most of those cards are bad in the situation where you do not have said infinite mana
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
I wish you luck in testing.
I have personally found problems with what to do with large amounts of mana, but if you find a way to make it work.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
I guess it works actually. Given infinite G mana are successful combo out and the hand has chord/recruiter/ballista could go for the win. Using infinite G mana to chord/recruit to cast an infinite power Ballista and simply remove that infinite counter and go for the kill. Even removal such as path can't stop this since we can respond the removal by slowly remove all counter in Ballista. But this doesn't safe in counterspell/discard heavy decks. And devoted druid or vizier are easy to remove also if shield doesn't active.
I really wanna play this deck however the primer is not in English so I am having trouble understanding the pros and cons of
KikiChord vs NahiriChord vs KikiEvolution vs KikiCompany
What makes each unique and what are each strength, what is the best for combo what is the best for midrange, etc etc
Thanks!
Modern Decks:
URGifts StormRU
UBRGrixis ShadowRBU
To answer your questions though:
Traditional Kiki Chord / Kiki Company in my opinion are best in a balanced meta, both have the ability to grind for days and combat most decks in the format.
Nahiri Chord is probably best in a Control/Midrange dominated meta.
Kiki Evolution / Kiki Company are best suited in a combo dominated meta having earlier access to toolbox creatures suited to slow down/soft lock most combo oriented decks.
I think all variants are equal dogs to big mana (Tron/Titan+Valakut decks). Eldritch Evolution is a terrible card in a Control dominated meta.
Standard Kiki Chord.
As the aggro version, that's meant to get in fast.
Good vs midrange/aggro
Kiki evolution
Is better when you are playing tons of silver bullets.
Good vs combo/aggro
Kiki company.
When you want to flood the board for fast recovery/combo potentional
Good vs aggro, big mana, combo, has some trouble with control/discard.
All 3 versions have a good MU vs GX tron, but struggle with Eldrazi Tron.
Personally See 8 rack as the top worst MU for all 3 versions. All 3 are great, it's personal choice/playstyle for what is best for yoy
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
Running Magus of the Moon vs. not running it and coming up against big mana is worth more than just 1-2 percentage points.
For GX tron to kills us.
It's either play Ugin or lose.
We don't care about karn, o stone, wurmcoil, any thing they can play past ugin. And even with Ugin if we play it right we can still win.
Every list should run 1 magus in main. It is to good vs a lot of decks.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
Traditional Kiki Chord is anything but an aggro deck.
Evolution is about access to bullets on earlier turns, not the number of bullets you're looking to play.
None of the versions have a positive record vs. G/x Tron Varaints.
8-rack is a test of resource management, but the deck is terrible against 2-for-1 bodies. Nor has it actually been relevant in Modern for some time.
It is the closet one of the lists to an aggro/midrange sort of plan.
Evolution you want more bullets to get to. Then the other lists.
And I am 12/14 vs G/X tron
Between my version and normal Kiki chord.
I find it one of the easier MU's.
The only reason Eldrazi Tron Sucks.
Ballista+Collar/All is dust, and can recover decent from Ghost Quarters/blood moon.
And 8 rack is almost never played, but I have two in My Meta. And even if you slowroll it, still is a hard hard MY.
I'm 0/13 vs it, only have won 2 games.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
I agree with all of what Luda said. The nature of the evolution builds lends itself to higher cmc hate cards like linvala, but I think the density is the same because you are forced to play more value creatures for sacrificing like wall of omens.
I personally have always had trouble with Tron. O-stone is a beating, and at best takes a chord if you have access to a selfless spirit. As the game progresses it becomes more and more difficult to combo as the new Tron decks have a side plan of shredding your land base with ulamog, world breaker and karn.
8 rack can lock out games, but the deck top decks great, and any game I can get to four lands I feel confident. Btw I have maindecked a baloth for a while and that card is great in the matchup.
The eldrazi Tron deck plays one main deck all is dust, and I honestly only see that deck assemble Tron 1/4 games, but maybe that's just variance?
I run my list off 2-3 lands preferred. But I run more Mana Dorks then most lists, even in my more traditional list.
1 card to try for Anti Tron that makes life great, a tad of a mana sync but can shut down ugin.
Azorius Guildmage
This wins me most games vs tron, stony silence/Ancient grudge work decently well at slowing them.
And in my area, Eldrazi Lists run 2 all is dust/1 Ugin MB. On top of more in side, and ratchet bombs.
It's a grind fest as you can see from the video I posted.
Evo, you are forced to almost build the deck as a pod deck. But that is fine. Personally I view Evo as the weakest version. But there are metas it excels in.
But this Is why I love Kiki Chord decks, there is a near almost infinite way to build the deck, it will always have the ability to excel and be one of the best decks in the format because of it.
It is a tier 1.5+ and the last few months of all the very different lists rocking the meta has proven that.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
Evo version is the most aggressive because of the lines evo enables with voice, rallier and p&k.
@aggrosdemise I do not know for your list because you are more an other build than anything else. In fact the closest is wall mills. BTW you should definitely try phenax (if not already done)in your list.