I normally have a sideboard for the worse matchcups if you expect much tron, crumble and fulminator are your best bets, and dont be afraid to go overboard!
edit: regarding your question imo run both. crumble is a big *uck you to tron but it may be late. avoids getting ugin on turn 4. thats why fulminators are played, also the fact they can be tutored is great!
People on forums like this crack me up. Writing things like this contribute nothing to the discussion and just serve to make the author feel smarter than the person they are putting down. It is fine to explain why someone / something is wrong - but actually explain why. Just saying "this is wrong" isn't helpful or constructive.
I put a lot of work into that Chord list for the PC and I think it is very reasonable. I talked a bit about it here including talking about why the life combo isn't great, but why I ended up playing it anyways. I went 1-2 at the PC in the modern portion, but anyone who has has played enough events will be able to tell you that a three match sample is far from relevant for determining if a deck is reasonable or not.
t exactly a very constructive contribution either. You think it's a very reasonable list, he thinks your logic isn't very sound. Why the butthurt?
'
Except for the part where you clipped my post removing the part that is constructive immediately following your first sentence taken out of context.
EDIT: At any rate - not getting into it about the semantics about forums. Just wanted to provide context for someone that asked about a deck I was working on outside of the "he has bad logic" that had been offered.
Jeff, there are multiple posts over the last couple of pages that this is directed at. Not specifically yours.
However, jamming a more than likely uncastable Kiki-Jiki in the board with the statement "Just, you know, be a professional and do not draw the Kiki-Jiki" doesn't necessarily come off as quality content or deck building advice.
Actually drawing the Kiki in the 4 coloured list is a lott less bad if you have discard outlets like Collective Brutalaty. Like in the more regular Kiki chord lists drawing the Kiki is less good then drawing chord: The chord is more flexible, it can be cast at instant speed, the opponent can not interact with the play unless they have instant speed.
In fact I have considered having 2 kiki jikies in the deck so that if I draw it I can still get the other one with the chord. This could be important when you do the 'witnes'-'angel'-'kiki' rutine as I often feel vunerable when casting the kiki instead of the chord.
If the deck is willing to live through the pain of having 2 dead draws in the deck (say collective brutalaty) not caring about having 3 red symbols would make the manabse much easier.
This second deck has 8 creatures that can counter spells (Spellstutter Sprite and Spellqueller.) Once one of them is on the battlefield Phantasmal Image can copy them (off chord or company) leading to some really brutal turns in a row. He can also copy Etternal Witness chaining together multiple Collected Companies.
Scryb Ranger uppens the amount of faeries for Spellstutter Sprite. He can also trigger revolt making Deadeye Harpooner a removal spell. If you have a manadork in play you can return a land and untapp a manadork making him a pseudo wall of roots. He can also return a land and replay it if you don't have enough land drops.
Restoration Angel is really good with Spellstutter Sprite and Deadeye Harpooner. Kiki-Jiki also comboes with those creatures. If the rare occation that you draw Kiki-Jiki vendilion clique can shuffel him into the deck again.
The deck would perform better vs combo, but the lack of kitchen finks and voice of resurgency gives you fever big creature to clog the ground with.
Throwing my deck into the mix. Been trialling Bloodmoon in place of fulminator as I find fulminator just doesn't add enough pressure/disruption, and I have other answers to the Nexuseseses of the world. I've been trying to find the best SB to make the tron matchup much more favorable.
I think the tron matchup is what it is. I would be more tempted to go for Crumble to dust. I'm never a fan of hedging a mtachup so hard so as to risk the %points in all the other ones. I am a huge fan of the combo in the tron matchup. If it goes to the long game. chances are they have won.
As for two kiki's i think we have all decided that one is enough. Drawing the second usually feels bad. If path becomes more prolific then i can see going to 2. As others have said the combo should never be the sole gameplan its more an oops i win. For example last night playing against eldrazi tron he tapped out so i combo'd him out. Before then i was just trying to grind out with fulminator mages and the like.
However, jamming a more than likely uncastable Kiki-Jiki in the board with the statement "Just, you know, be a professional and do not draw the Kiki-Jiki" doesn't necessarily come off as quality content or deck building advice.
Except it is good deck building advice. You are simply choosing a different way to lose games. The conjecture is essentially:
You lose more games to having a bunch of red lands in your deck that don't cast many of your spells, than you will lose to drawing one copy of Kiki you can't cast when you need to board it in.
I'm not just making stuff up and throwing untested lists together while telling people to get lucky. Magic is a game of variance by design and I am simply picking a different thing to lose to than the traditional lists.
I think the tron matchup is what it is. I would be more tempted to go for Crumble to dust. I'm never a fan of hedging a mtachup so hard so as to risk the %points in all the other ones. I am a huge fan of the combo in the tron matchup. If it goes to the long game. chances are they have won.
As for two kiki's i think we have all decided that one is enough. Drawing the second usually feels bad. If path becomes more prolific then i can see going to 2. As others have said the combo should never be the sole gameplan its more an oops i win. For example last night playing against eldrazi tron he tapped out so i combo'd him out. Before then i was just trying to grind out with fulminator mages and the like.
Oh for sure, and bloodmoon isnt just for tron, hits valaku, infect, and eldrazi pretty hard too, and agree with combo is key against tron. My issue is with Fulminator usually not being enough, unless you run the Surgicals along with it.
Throwing my deck into the mix. Been trialling Bloodmoon in place of fulminator as I find fulminator just doesn't add enough pressure/disruption, and I have other answers to the Nexuseseses of the world. I've been trying to find the best SB to make the tron matchup much more favorable.
Why the 2 spirit main, 2 skite side? I feel like a 1-1 split in side and board would be better as chord targets. Also I feel like your curve might be a little higher than average, so your chords might come off a little slower... just one man's opinion.
However, jamming a more than likely uncastable Kiki-Jiki in the board with the statement "Just, you know, be a professional and do not draw the Kiki-Jiki" doesn't necessarily come off as quality content or deck building advice.
Except it is good deck building advice. You are simply choosing a different way to lose games. The conjecture is essentially:
You lose more games to having a bunch of red lands in your deck that don't cast many of your spells, than you will lose to drawing one copy of Kiki you can't cast when you need to board it in.
I'm not just making stuff up and throwing untested lists together while telling people to get lucky. Magic is a game of variance by design and I am simply picking a different thing to lose to than the traditional lists.
Jeff, in your article you said one of the main reasons you moved to abzan was the power of collective brutality. In the wake of recent bannings and printings I feel the card is less well positioned: burn seems reasonable already, and infect is less represented thus far. In an overly fair meta would you still suggest the abzan lists over naya or naya black?
Have you tested with rallier yet? I watch all your streams and looks like you have success with the landfall and infinite bloom decks, but honestly I think you would beat your buddies with any deck you play (no offense to your playtest mates). My fellow kiki-chord friend at my LGS is on a rallier evo list and has had some success, but I am not sure if the card warrants a slot, or even makes evolution a consideration again... thoughts?
P.S. Your logic is fine. Yes drawing kiki sucks if unable to cast it, and the percentage points lost are similar to the incremental damage done by pulling a four color mana base, and the unkeepable hands when you have that blasted firelit thicket in hand! etc...
Throwing my deck into the mix. Been trialling Bloodmoon in place of fulminator as I find fulminator just doesn't add enough pressure/disruption, and I have other answers to the Nexuseseses of the world. I've been trying to find the best SB to make the tron matchup much more favorable.
Why the 2 spirit main, 2 skite side? I feel like a 1-1 split in side and board would be better as chord targets. Also I feel like your curve might be a little higher than average, so your chords might come off a little slower... just one man's opinion.
I'm trying out a more agressive route with the 2 spirits, and as I'm suspecting a jump in tron and valakut. Spirits allow me to apply pressure moreso than spellskite but could totally see myself going back to a 1/1 split with spellskite. So far haven't had too much trouble with the curve.
honestly I think you would beat your buddies with any deck you play (no offense to your playtest mates).
If you see mistakes being made, you should point them out in our chat or in a YouTube comment after the fact. We often stop and pause both sides of matches and rewind / change lines. There is also a strong bias from observers because you can see the contents of both player's hands - see this with events that get cast a lot as well - player XYZ is "bad" because they didn't play around a card that is "obviously" in their opponent's hand.
As far as Rallier goes - I agree it might make Evolution worth trying again. Going to try two different lists on stream tonight that I posted here.
Thats a good point... It is hard to criticize when I have perfect information. The new lists looks sick and I will play it tonight. Huge fan of the maindeck eidolon, that card ruins people's days!
My meta is full of tron so i expected to play against at least one. With Magus of the moon in the main and Crumble to dust in side i thought i had a good match. he won the first because he could path my magus.
+ 2 Crumble to Dust
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
2nd Round. Vs Elves 2-0 win
Risky hand in game 1 with Kiki in hand, but evolutions and kitchen also. Won by Archangel+ Spike Feeder Combo. After sideboard, Caldera Hellion ( Replacing Cataclysmic Gearhulk)kill his board, win by attacking.
+ 1 Caldera Hellion
3rd Round. Vs Merfolks 2-1 win
Killed by fast damage with the merfolks. Second and Third game was slower, expecting counters i tried to play defensively. It worked.
+ 1 Caldera Hellion
+ 1 Reclamation Sage
4th Round. Vs Storm. 0-2 Loss
With the addition of Baral, Chief of Compliance and Gifts Ungiven that deck is strong and forgotten. He had luck and skill and had none. I have Kiki and Restoration in hand to play restoration at the of his turn and kiki in the next to win, but he kill me in that turn.
+ 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
+ 2 Rest in Peace
End of tournament 3 wins 1 Lose, Second Place
Conclusion: First to play this deck you need to know it well, a opening hand that looks good maybe be not that good with this. Second i LOVED Caldera Hellion, maybe because i have to tribal matches but it's awesome.
edit: regarding your question imo run both. crumble is a big *uck you to tron but it may be late. avoids getting ugin on turn 4. thats why fulminators are played, also the fact they can be tutored is great!
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
People on forums like this crack me up. Writing things like this contribute nothing to the discussion and just serve to make the author feel smarter than the person they are putting down. It is fine to explain why someone / something is wrong - but actually explain why. Just saying "this is wrong" isn't helpful or constructive.
I put a lot of work into that Chord list for the PC and I think it is very reasonable. I talked a bit about it here including talking about why the life combo isn't great, but why I ended up playing it anyways. I went 1-2 at the PC in the modern portion, but anyone who has has played enough events will be able to tell you that a three match sample is far from relevant for determining if a deck is reasonable or not.
Not exactly a very constructive contribution either. You think it's a very reasonable list, he thinks your logic isn't very sound. Why the butthurt?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
'
Except for the part where you clipped my post removing the part that is constructive immediately following your first sentence taken out of context.
EDIT: At any rate - not getting into it about the semantics about forums. Just wanted to provide context for someone that asked about a deck I was working on outside of the "he has bad logic" that had been offered.
This is a forum to discuss Non Budget-Kiki Chord variants. Not Abzan Company or Abzan Chord.
Those decks can be discussed here:
Abzan Chord/Toolbox - http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/743663-abzan-toolbox
Abzan Company - http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/605889-abzan-company
The list I linked has both Kiki and Chord of Calling in it...
However, jamming a more than likely uncastable Kiki-Jiki in the board with the statement "Just, you know, be a professional and do not draw the Kiki-Jiki" doesn't necessarily come off as quality content or deck building advice.
In fact I have considered having 2 kiki jikies in the deck so that if I draw it I can still get the other one with the chord. This could be important when you do the 'witnes'-'angel'-'kiki' rutine as I often feel vunerable when casting the kiki instead of the chord.
If the deck is willing to live through the pain of having 2 dead draws in the deck (say collective brutalaty) not caring about having 3 red symbols would make the manabse much easier.
Something like this:
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Wall of Omens
1 Spellskite
1 Renegade Rallier
2 Eternal Witness
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Restoration Angel
1 Siege Rhino
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Collective Brutality
4 Chord of Calling
3 Path to Exile
3 Eldritch evolution
Lands
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
The deck can go eldrict evolution voice of resurgency into Renegade Rallier for a real offensive 8 power on the table.
You could also go a more flashier route with reactive cards in blue:
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Spellskite
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Eternal Witness
4 Spell Queller
1 Deadeye Harpooner
1 Restoration Angel
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Path to Exile
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands:
22 lands (no reds)
This second deck has 8 creatures that can counter spells (Spellstutter Sprite and Spellqueller.) Once one of them is on the battlefield Phantasmal Image can copy them (off chord or company) leading to some really brutal turns in a row. He can also copy Etternal Witness chaining together multiple Collected Companies.
Scryb Ranger uppens the amount of faeries for Spellstutter Sprite. He can also trigger revolt making Deadeye Harpooner a removal spell. If you have a manadork in play you can return a land and untapp a manadork making him a pseudo wall of roots. He can also return a land and replay it if you don't have enough land drops.
Restoration Angel is really good with Spellstutter Sprite and Deadeye Harpooner. Kiki-Jiki also comboes with those creatures. If the rare occation that you draw Kiki-Jiki vendilion clique can shuffel him into the deck again.
The deck would perform better vs combo, but the lack of kitchen finks and voice of resurgency gives you fever big creature to clog the ground with.
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Selfless Spirit
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Restoration Angel
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to exile
4 Chord of Calling
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding pool
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Gavony Township
1 Fire-lit Thicket
4 Blood moon
2 Distainful Stroke
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Izzet Static caster
As for two kiki's i think we have all decided that one is enough. Drawing the second usually feels bad. If path becomes more prolific then i can see going to 2. As others have said the combo should never be the sole gameplan its more an oops i win. For example last night playing against eldrazi tron he tapped out so i combo'd him out. Before then i was just trying to grind out with fulminator mages and the like.
Except it is good deck building advice. You are simply choosing a different way to lose games. The conjecture is essentially:
You lose more games to having a bunch of red lands in your deck that don't cast many of your spells, than you will lose to drawing one copy of Kiki you can't cast when you need to board it in.
I'm not just making stuff up and throwing untested lists together while telling people to get lucky. Magic is a game of variance by design and I am simply picking a different thing to lose to than the traditional lists.
Oh for sure, and bloodmoon isnt just for tron, hits valaku, infect, and eldrazi pretty hard too, and agree with combo is key against tron. My issue is with Fulminator usually not being enough, unless you run the Surgicals along with it.
Why the 2 spirit main, 2 skite side? I feel like a 1-1 split in side and board would be better as chord targets. Also I feel like your curve might be a little higher than average, so your chords might come off a little slower... just one man's opinion.
Jeff, in your article you said one of the main reasons you moved to abzan was the power of collective brutality. In the wake of recent bannings and printings I feel the card is less well positioned: burn seems reasonable already, and infect is less represented thus far. In an overly fair meta would you still suggest the abzan lists over naya or naya black?
Have you tested with rallier yet? I watch all your streams and looks like you have success with the landfall and infinite bloom decks, but honestly I think you would beat your buddies with any deck you play (no offense to your playtest mates). My fellow kiki-chord friend at my LGS is on a rallier evo list and has had some success, but I am not sure if the card warrants a slot, or even makes evolution a consideration again... thoughts?
P.S. Your logic is fine. Yes drawing kiki sucks if unable to cast it, and the percentage points lost are similar to the incremental damage done by pulling a four color mana base, and the unkeepable hands when you have that blasted firelit thicket in hand! etc...
I'm trying out a more agressive route with the 2 spirits, and as I'm suspecting a jump in tron and valakut. Spirits allow me to apply pressure moreso than spellskite but could totally see myself going back to a 1/1 split with spellskite. So far haven't had too much trouble with the curve.
If you see mistakes being made, you should point them out in our chat or in a YouTube comment after the fact. We often stop and pause both sides of matches and rewind / change lines. There is also a strong bias from observers because you can see the contents of both player's hands - see this with events that get cast a lot as well - player XYZ is "bad" because they didn't play around a card that is "obviously" in their opponent's hand.
As far as Rallier goes - I agree it might make Evolution worth trying again. Going to try two different lists on stream tonight that I posted here.
My deck
3 Wall of Omens
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel
2 Eternal Witness
2 Wall of Roots
1 Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Reveillark
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Spike Feeder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eldritch Evolution
2 Chord of Calling
4 Path to exile
4 Windswept Heath
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stony Silence
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Caldera Hellion
2 Crumble to dust
2 Boros Charm
Saturday Modern Event 12 players. 4 rounds, 3/4
1st Round. Vs WG Tron 2-1 win
My meta is full of tron so i expected to play against at least one. With Magus of the moon in the main and Crumble to dust in side i thought i had a good match. he won the first because he could path my magus.
+ 2 Crumble to Dust
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
2nd Round. Vs Elves 2-0 win
Risky hand in game 1 with Kiki in hand, but evolutions and kitchen also. Won by Archangel+ Spike Feeder Combo. After sideboard, Caldera Hellion ( Replacing Cataclysmic Gearhulk)kill his board, win by attacking.
+ 1 Caldera Hellion
3rd Round. Vs Merfolks 2-1 win
Killed by fast damage with the merfolks. Second and Third game was slower, expecting counters i tried to play defensively. It worked.
+ 1 Caldera Hellion
+ 1 Reclamation Sage
4th Round. Vs Storm. 0-2 Loss
With the addition of Baral, Chief of Compliance and Gifts Ungiven that deck is strong and forgotten. He had luck and skill and had none. I have Kiki and Restoration in hand to play restoration at the of his turn and kiki in the next to win, but he kill me in that turn.
+ 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
+ 2 Rest in Peace
End of tournament 3 wins 1 Lose, Second Place
Conclusion: First to play this deck you need to know it well, a opening hand that looks good maybe be not that good with this. Second i LOVED Caldera Hellion, maybe because i have to tribal matches but it's awesome.