Not to derail the conversation from the great Finks debate, but let me sell you all on Shriekmaw at the 5 drop slot for a second (obviously this only applies to the black splash version): Its evoke mode is removal spell no. 4 if we shave a path as Jeff has done. More importantly, you can evo into it to kill a troublesome creature and the effect is devastating with Restoration Angel or Kiki.
Yesterday at my LGS I used it to kill a TKS, then blinked it with Resto to take out my opponent's Reality Smasher. In the next round, against Infect, I managed to pull off the following line: Orzhov Pontiff to wipe opponent's board.
The next turn opponent redeploys 2 1-toughness creatures. I Evo Pontiff into Shriekmaw, haunting one creature, then kill that creature with Shriekmaw's trigger, triggering the -1 and wiping his board again.
I fully realize that a card shouldn't be judged by Christmas land scenarios like those. But the floor on Shriekmaw is "kill their best creature, have a 3/2 evasive body", which is not bad at all.
I would agree that the traditional Kiki-chord lists wanted to stall the game and overwhelm with CA, but Evo allows for much more explosive starts and consistency than the traditional lists allowed. I don't think everyone is looking at finks or questioning what the best options are for the 3CMC slot to only build around Evo, but that doesn't mean the way choices interact with it is not taken into consideration. Just trying to come up with a solid list that performs.
The discussion about which options are best and what other drawbacks are is healthy and will ultimately lead to a better deck which I'm all for.
Hi Jeff,
I can see the following situations;
Land - 1 Drop - Finks T2. Now we can apply early pressure and we have been able to fetch aggressively.
Land - 1 Drop - Finks T2. Turn 3 Evo - against tapped out opponent we can go for Resto just for a straight reset. We have gained 4 life as well. Against certain opponents we can go straight to a Thragtusk, sigarda, P and K. Any hot sauce you are running
So the argument is that when we have our ideal start (turn 1 dork that lives) it is a passable card?
Don't build decks around ideal situations. Build decks to make less than ideal situations less bad for you. Finks doesn't do this.
Hey Jeff
Thanks for your reply. I don't think we are as concerned about replacing Voices or witness. I would argue this does more in your deck synergy wise than a lone Courser would. As I said before there is merit to the argument to change into a more grindy midrange deck that has the combo backup than previously. I think Evo helps facilitate this change. This would mean more heriarchs and gavony's, which are also great alongside finks. I think the best way to shut most of us up would be to do some videos and if finks comes up as lacklustre then that is a pretty good evidence in your favor
The deck performs fine without it and the theory still remains about the same in not wanting it.
I am sure it is a passable card. There are literally dozens of choices that are passable and will probably let you keep winning games at every part of the curve in these colors. This does not make them optimal. Even if I did have time to record videos with a card that isn't ideal, being results based after seeing it in a 5~ match video set is NOT good deck building.
People should play what they want - can't wait for someone to play a finks against me in the mirror.
The duscission of Finks here is becoming painfully repetitive...
Anyone else dealing with a massive influx of Dredge? Anafenza/Scooze are decent but man.. The lists are so much faster and consistent than ever before.. Would't be suprised if it made a decent showing at the upcoming SCG open and GP Indy.
Yeah, insolent neonate and prized amalgam really helped the deck, they can flood the board pretty quickly. You could go for a Yixlid Jailer in your abzan list if anafenza and scooze are too slow
The duscission of Finks here is becoming painfully repetitive...
Anyone else dealing with a massive influx of Dredge? Anafenza/Scooze are decent but man.. The lists are so much faster and consistent than ever before.. Would't be suprised if it made a decent showing at the upcoming SCG open and GP Indy.
Same here. Creature swarms with dredge are usually manageable but the conflagrates are really hurting...
I agree we need to come up with something for Dredge. Anafenza, the Foremost seems ideal but can get Conflagrated. I think Samurai of the Pale Curtain might be our best bet as we can cast it T2. I would probably even leave in E-Witness so I could recur it if Dredge were to kill it with Explosives/Decay/Lightning Axe.
makes sense. I was just trying to find a creature that helps us vs Dredge. I do believe it is going to be popular and want at least 1 card in the SB for it. Anafenza is fine, but I'd like something that effects all cards and not just creatures.
I'm trying out Duplicant tonight in place of Elesh Norn. It's always good against creature decks and once it's out, you can abuse it with Resto, Reveillark, etc.
Hey guys, I'm looking to build the deck, but budget is a little of an issue right now so I'm not too hot on buying 2-4 voice of resurgence. Any recommendation for another value 2 drop that does something upon entering the field or dying? I was planning of playing more wall of omen and some coiling oracle while being more oriented on the combo aspect of the deck than the beatdown plan. Also, maybe include a bit more of silver bullets mainboard.
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Playing modern: all BGx, storm, burn, green eldrazi, dredge.
Going up Wall of Omens seems fine. I'm not a huge fan of coiling oracle. Another option is going up t9 two or three copies of Scavenging Ooze mainboard. Also have a look at Strangleroot Geist or Grand Abolisher for other budget options for Voice of Resurgence. Also in the past Jeff has said to go for Sin Collector"a decent budget replacement for Voice of Resurgence, and while Sin Collector does not provide the same aggressive upside as Voice, it is powerful in similar matchups".
Just going to add as well - I've been fairly unimpressed with Eldritch Evolution. I've yet to come up against affinity/infect, where I'm guessing the access to the bombs in G2/G3 is a lot more effective - but when playing against something blue, remand really messes up this card. I'd much rather just play a 3-drop like courser and keep the 2-drop on the table, than "ramp" into a pia and kiran IF the spell resolves. I nearly always just prefer a chord of calling vs anything grindy (so BGx and URx), making me wonder why I'm bothering with Evo at all.
Against the faster decks, I can see Eldritch being slightly better - but against something like suicide zoo, there's no real bomb that can swing the match-up that you fetch with eldritch. Against zoo, there's only ok targets like obstinate baloth.
I'm not sold on the card, the argument that you can use other controlling pieces to help you use eldritch to grab Elesh Norn is fine, but at that stage, Nahiri is likely to win you the game anyway.
Can someone explain to me whey Eldritch is better than Nahiri, or even Collected Company (ludafish, looking at you)! For me, it just hasn't felt stunning yet.
Nahiri - Evo accelerates your ability to tutor up toolbox pieces/combo which is applicable to less interactive MUs. It's also a solid value play when starting a Reveillark loop of sorts or just looking for that bomb to square up the board and close a game.
Company - Evo does away with the deck building restriction surrounding Company while adding a level of consistency that Company lacks from time to time.
These were my beliefs when I'd starting testing the card heavily.. In actuality Evo's draw backs feel comparable to both after playing with it a ton.
That being said.. I think I'm going to play Company in Indy. I haven't really decided yet but I've had pretty unexciting results with Evo over the last 2 weeks testing 5 different variations. I've very comfortable with Company and confidant in my ability to play it against an open field.. to me, that's how you win in Modern.
Round 1 vs Abzan Coco won 2-1
Round 2 vs Jeskai Control won 2-0
Round 3 vs Jeskai Control won 2-0
Round 4 vs Abzan Coco won 2-1
In the 2 game losses vs Abzan Coco they had the nut draw turn 3 infinite life both times. The other games against Coco I was able to grind out with value and better creatures. Linvala was a house out of the sideboard. Being able to evo into Linvala is awesome. Scavenging Ooze also helps to stop the combo, and Inferno Titan can mop up when necessary.
The deck crushed Jeskai control. Evo was good, just pick your spot to cast it. I did sideboard 2 out for the game 2s.
Having Sigarda main was huge. Jeskai cannot deal with it unless they have their wrath. It beats up Nahiri, can't be exiled by Nahiri's -2, and stops Emrakul's annihilation if it happens to slip through some how (it never did).
Notable plays:
- Kiki Jiki on Siege Rhino for huge life/damage swing
- Evoking a Shriekmaw and then blinking it with Resto for a double kill and get to keep the Shriekmaw
- Linvala shutting down a board full of dorks
- Avalanche Rider blowing up 3 lands (Resto blinking 2 consecutive turns in a row)
- Evolving for Sigarda against Nahiri on board
The deck generates so much value. In a lot of games I still had good value cards left in my hand to play in case things went wrong.
Evo is so strong simply because you can get your best silver bullet now.
Wall of Omens was awesome.
I only ran 2 Voice of Resurgence because that is all I own. Blade Splicer filled one of the spots and is decent. The other spot was Kitchen Finks, which is ok, but I didn't get to play it much. I can see how 4 Voice would be good against control.
Vs. burn I would want the Kitchen Finks, and I also put a Baneslayer in the board as a bullet.
I could see Pontif/Eidelon being mainboard depending on the meta. Linvala is obviously awesome against Abzan Coco. Slaughter Games is a hedge against combo - I also boarded it in against Jeskai Nahiri.
Fun deck, and will be playing it more. Need to playtest against infect, affinity, burn, eldrazi, other tier 1/2.
Going up Wall of Omens seems fine. I'm not a huge fan of coiling oracle. Another option is going up t9 two or three copies of Scavenging Ooze mainboard. Also have a look at Strangleroot Geist or Grand Abolisher for other budget options for Voice of Resurgence. Also in the past Jeff has said to go for Sin Collector"a decent budget replacement for Voice of Resurgence, and while Sin Collector does not provide the same aggressive upside as Voice, it is powerful in similar matchups".
i have been testing Strangleroot Geist the past 2 weeks and it has been encouraging. it is not a defensive minded card like Voice of Resurgence or Kitchen Finks but a pretty good turn 2 aggressive drop that gets bigger with Noble Hierarch and/or Qasali Pridemage.
Can someone explain to me whey Eldritch is better than Nahiri, or even Collected Company (ludafish, looking at you)! For me, it just hasn't felt stunning yet.
Rather than giving situations of when Eldritch Evolution is better than Collected Company. I would just give you the pros and cons of both cards instead.
PROS:
- A powerful tutor effect
- A lot less card variance as opposed to Collected Company since you know what specific creature card you want to get.
- Costs one less mana to cast
- Less restrictive on how you build your deck.
CONS:
- Eldritch Evolution exiles itself upon resolution of the spell. So you cannot abuse eternal witness like you can with Chord of Calling
- Being a creature deck with sorcery speed spells can be awkward.
- While not being really a negative being Double green in its casting cost can sometimes be a little restrictive
- Weak to counterspells. Getting yourself 2-for-1'd feels real bad
PROS:
- Instant speed. Can be useful in response to removal as a way to dig for answers or at the end of your opponents turn.
- Finding a Eternal witness off a Collected Company to return it to your hand from graveyard is pure value. Doing so costs less than chording for an Eternal witness to get back Collected Company (4cmc vs 6 cmc)
- Gain lots of value quick as it generally will gain you card and board advantage.
- Unlike Eldritch Evolution, Collected Company does not need any creatures on the board when casting
- Less painful on the board presence when it is countered as opposed to countering Eldritch Evolution.
CONS:
- There is a lot of variance in Collected Company. There is never a guarantee you will get what you want.
- Collected Company is also more expensive to cast and can occasionally get stuck in your hand.
- Collected Company restricts how you build your deck as it cannot hit any creature with cmc greater than 3. Also Collected Company means you will run less removal spells in your mainboard.
As a Kiki Chord player I never liked playing Collected Company because I feel that we are far less focused on the combo than Melira/Abzan Company is. That deck has redundancies in its combo (multiple sac outlets,multiple persists creatures that usually win the game, a few copies of either Melira, Sylvok Outcast or Anafenza, Kin-tree spirit) and its that make the likes of playing Collected Company better. However, its two biggest con for me is there is just to high of variance in what cards you hit with Collected Company and It restricts how you build your deck. Don't get me wrong Collected Company is a really powerful card as it shows in the consistent results of the Melira/Abzan Company deck its just not the right card for me.
And in comparing Eldritch Evolution to Nahiri, the Harbinger and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn it is probably to soon to tell. If the response from the premiere master of Kiki Chord was: The answer currently is “I do not know.”. We should hold onto that thought until more testing can be done. However, the feel of the deck is slightly different between the two versions. From what Jeff has said in his recent article of mtgcardmarket: "Instead of being slanted towards being a combo-control deck with the extra removal Nahiri provides, it feels more like an aggro-combo deck with the pressure Evolution is able to provide. I could very easily see which build of the deck is optimal depending on the format you are expecting.
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Yesterday at my LGS I used it to kill a TKS, then blinked it with Resto to take out my opponent's Reality Smasher. In the next round, against Infect, I managed to pull off the following line: Orzhov Pontiff to wipe opponent's board.
The next turn opponent redeploys 2 1-toughness creatures. I Evo Pontiff into Shriekmaw, haunting one creature, then kill that creature with Shriekmaw's trigger, triggering the -1 and wiping his board again.
I fully realize that a card shouldn't be judged by Christmas land scenarios like those. But the floor on Shriekmaw is "kill their best creature, have a 3/2 evasive body", which is not bad at all.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
The discussion about which options are best and what other drawbacks are is healthy and will ultimately lead to a better deck which I'm all for.
Hey Jeff
Thanks for your reply. I don't think we are as concerned about replacing Voices or witness. I would argue this does more in your deck synergy wise than a lone Courser would. As I said before there is merit to the argument to change into a more grindy midrange deck that has the combo backup than previously. I think Evo helps facilitate this change. This would mean more heriarchs and gavony's, which are also great alongside finks. I think the best way to shut most of us up would be to do some videos and if finks comes up as lacklustre then that is a pretty good evidence in your favor
cheers
I am sure it is a passable card. There are literally dozens of choices that are passable and will probably let you keep winning games at every part of the curve in these colors. This does not make them optimal. Even if I did have time to record videos with a card that isn't ideal, being results based after seeing it in a 5~ match video set is NOT good deck building.
People should play what they want - can't wait for someone to play a finks against me in the mirror.
Anyone else dealing with a massive influx of Dredge? Anafenza/Scooze are decent but man.. The lists are so much faster and consistent than ever before.. Would't be suprised if it made a decent showing at the upcoming SCG open and GP Indy.
Same here. Creature swarms with dredge are usually manageable but the conflagrates are really hurting...
makes sense. I was just trying to find a creature that helps us vs Dredge. I do believe it is going to be popular and want at least 1 card in the SB for it. Anafenza is fine, but I'd like something that effects all cards and not just creatures.
That what I've been on but it hasn't felt like enough vs. the newer Dredge lists.
Round 1: Burn 2-1
Round 2: Burn 2-1
Round 3: Mono white taxes 2-0
Round 4: Gruul elves? Not sure. 2-1
I ran a list similar to Jeff Hoogland's list, but with a splash with black.
Nahiri - Evo accelerates your ability to tutor up toolbox pieces/combo which is applicable to less interactive MUs. It's also a solid value play when starting a Reveillark loop of sorts or just looking for that bomb to square up the board and close a game.
Company - Evo does away with the deck building restriction surrounding Company while adding a level of consistency that Company lacks from time to time.
These were my beliefs when I'd starting testing the card heavily.. In actuality Evo's draw backs feel comparable to both after playing with it a ton.
That being said.. I think I'm going to play Company in Indy. I haven't really decided yet but I've had pretty unexciting results with Evo over the last 2 weeks testing 5 different variations. I've very comfortable with Company and confidant in my ability to play it against an open field.. to me, that's how you win in Modern.
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Raging Ravine
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
2 Chord of Calling
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Path to Exile
1 Avalanche Riders
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Blade Splicer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Inferno Titan
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Spellskite
1 Thragtusk
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Omens
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Crackling Doom
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Lightning Helix
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Slaughter Games
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sin Collector
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Round 1 vs Abzan Coco won 2-1
Round 2 vs Jeskai Control won 2-0
Round 3 vs Jeskai Control won 2-0
Round 4 vs Abzan Coco won 2-1
In the 2 game losses vs Abzan Coco they had the nut draw turn 3 infinite life both times. The other games against Coco I was able to grind out with value and better creatures. Linvala was a house out of the sideboard. Being able to evo into Linvala is awesome. Scavenging Ooze also helps to stop the combo, and Inferno Titan can mop up when necessary.
The deck crushed Jeskai control. Evo was good, just pick your spot to cast it. I did sideboard 2 out for the game 2s.
Having Sigarda main was huge. Jeskai cannot deal with it unless they have their wrath. It beats up Nahiri, can't be exiled by Nahiri's -2, and stops Emrakul's annihilation if it happens to slip through some how (it never did).
Notable plays:
- Kiki Jiki on Siege Rhino for huge life/damage swing
- Evoking a Shriekmaw and then blinking it with Resto for a double kill and get to keep the Shriekmaw
- Linvala shutting down a board full of dorks
- Avalanche Rider blowing up 3 lands (Resto blinking 2 consecutive turns in a row)
- Evolving for Sigarda against Nahiri on board
The deck generates so much value. In a lot of games I still had good value cards left in my hand to play in case things went wrong.
Evo is so strong simply because you can get your best silver bullet now.
Wall of Omens was awesome.
I only ran 2 Voice of Resurgence because that is all I own. Blade Splicer filled one of the spots and is decent. The other spot was Kitchen Finks, which is ok, but I didn't get to play it much. I can see how 4 Voice would be good against control.
Vs. burn I would want the Kitchen Finks, and I also put a Baneslayer in the board as a bullet.
I could see Pontif/Eidelon being mainboard depending on the meta. Linvala is obviously awesome against Abzan Coco. Slaughter Games is a hedge against combo - I also boarded it in against Jeskai Nahiri.
Fun deck, and will be playing it more. Need to playtest against infect, affinity, burn, eldrazi, other tier 1/2.
i have been testing Strangleroot Geist the past 2 weeks and it has been encouraging. it is not a defensive minded card like Voice of Resurgence or Kitchen Finks but a pretty good turn 2 aggressive drop that gets bigger with Noble Hierarch and/or Qasali Pridemage.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Rather than giving situations of when Eldritch Evolution is better than Collected Company. I would just give you the pros and cons of both cards instead.
Eldritch Evolution:
PROS:
- A powerful tutor effect
- A lot less card variance as opposed to Collected Company since you know what specific creature card you want to get.
- Costs one less mana to cast
- Less restrictive on how you build your deck.
CONS:
- Eldritch Evolution exiles itself upon resolution of the spell. So you cannot abuse eternal witness like you can with Chord of Calling
- Being a creature deck with sorcery speed spells can be awkward.
- While not being really a negative being Double green in its casting cost can sometimes be a little restrictive
- Weak to counterspells. Getting yourself 2-for-1'd feels real bad
Collected Company
PROS:
- Instant speed. Can be useful in response to removal as a way to dig for answers or at the end of your opponents turn.
- Finding a Eternal witness off a Collected Company to return it to your hand from graveyard is pure value. Doing so costs less than chording for an Eternal witness to get back Collected Company (4cmc vs 6 cmc)
- Gain lots of value quick as it generally will gain you card and board advantage.
- Unlike Eldritch Evolution, Collected Company does not need any creatures on the board when casting
- Less painful on the board presence when it is countered as opposed to countering Eldritch Evolution.
CONS:
- There is a lot of variance in Collected Company. There is never a guarantee you will get what you want.
- Collected Company is also more expensive to cast and can occasionally get stuck in your hand.
- Collected Company restricts how you build your deck as it cannot hit any creature with cmc greater than 3. Also Collected Company means you will run less removal spells in your mainboard.
As a Kiki Chord player I never liked playing Collected Company because I feel that we are far less focused on the combo than Melira/Abzan Company is. That deck has redundancies in its combo (multiple sac outlets,multiple persists creatures that usually win the game, a few copies of either Melira, Sylvok Outcast or Anafenza, Kin-tree spirit) and its that make the likes of playing Collected Company better. However, its two biggest con for me is there is just to high of variance in what cards you hit with Collected Company and It restricts how you build your deck. Don't get me wrong Collected Company is a really powerful card as it shows in the consistent results of the Melira/Abzan Company deck its just not the right card for me.
And in comparing Eldritch Evolution to Nahiri, the Harbinger and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn it is probably to soon to tell. If the response from the premiere master of Kiki Chord was: The answer currently is “I do not know.”. We should hold onto that thought until more testing can be done. However, the feel of the deck is slightly different between the two versions. From what Jeff has said in his recent article of mtgcardmarket: "Instead of being slanted towards being a combo-control deck with the extra removal Nahiri provides, it feels more like an aggro-combo deck with the pressure Evolution is able to provide. I could very easily see which build of the deck is optimal depending on the format you are expecting.