guys you all sooo wrong...Tuktuk the Explorer is the real deal at the 3cmc slot
Peace
Well, at that point you better include myr superion. Not in the 3cmc slot but it doesn't need to die to be a 5/5.
More seriously, and on the finks arguing, I don't think you need 2 evos to make it worthy. Just evo it once and you still have a body. In my book, that's some value.
The ability to sac Finks to Evo, get Resto and reset Finks makes it worth at least one slot in my opinion. That's prety big game against the midrange and control decks in the format, and gaining four life there is definitely not bad against aggro decks. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
Hi Jeff,
I can see the following situations;
Land - 1 Drop - Finks T2. Now we can apply early pressure and we have been able to fetch aggressively.
Land - 1 Drop - Finks T2. Turn 3 Evo - against tapped out opponent we can go for Resto just for a straight reset. We have gained 4 life as well. Against certain opponents we can go straight to a Thragtusk, sigarda, P and K. Any hot sauce you are running
So the argument is that when we have our ideal start (turn 1 dork that lives) it is a passable card?
Don't build decks around ideal situations. Build decks to make less than ideal situations less bad for you. Finks doesn't do this.
Hi Jeff,
I can see the following situations;
Land - 1 Drop - Finks T2. Now we can apply early pressure and we have been able to fetch aggressively.
Land - 1 Drop - Finks T2. Turn 3 Evo - against tapped out opponent we can go for Resto just for a straight reset. We have gained 4 life as well. Against certain opponents we can go straight to a Thragtusk, sigarda, P and K. Any hot sauce you are running
So the argument is that when we have our ideal start (turn 1 dork that lives) it is a passable card?
Don't build decks around ideal situations. Build decks to make less than ideal situations less bad for you. Finks doesn't do this.
No, the argument is that when we have our ideal start it's a great card. Turn 1 dork into turn 2 Finks into turn 3 Evo -> Resto gives you 6 life, a 3/2 with Persist, and a 3/4 flyer on turn 3. That's not 'passable', that's huge.
Even when we don't have our ideal start, it still generates value, board presence and useful synergy in most of our matchups.
As such, I don't think anybody is including Finks merely with ideal situations in mind - we're including it because of how good it is in a lot of situations.
Courser seems weak to me in an Evo shell. No value upon ETB, free information for the opponent, and a lackluster Evo target as it just dies without leaving anything on the battlefield.
Besides, we already run Witness alongside it. No sense running an entire playset as Evo exiles itself upon resolution.
Courser seems weak to me in an Evo shell. No value upon ETB, free information for the opponent, and a lackluster Evo target as it just dies without leaving anything on the battlefield.
Evolution isn't Birthiing Pod. You have at most four uses of it every game. We have a pile of creatures that generate value with Evolution already. In old Pod lists Finks made sense - after you podded the front half away you wanted a back half to Pod away again.
I don't think anybody is including Finks merely with ideal situations in mind - we're including it because of how good it is in a lot of situations
Like? Again - sell me on the card. So far the only thing close to reasonable for it involves a mana creature living into Evolution on turn three - which is such a great start it doesn't need to be finks to be good. Any creature will do that has value like Wall / Voice / Witness.
To be fair, we could say the same for Ruric Thar or Elesh Norn, both are just good in ideal situations where you are actually able to cast or evolution into them. If you actually have the time to deploy them against any linear aggro deck, you have lived long enough for you to be favored already, if you are playing against jund/junk/jeskai you need to have the mana to cast it and for them to not have a removal or counter. I did like Ruric to be fair, he won me quite a few games against some niche decks like a resolved ensnaring bridge from lantern control and against restore balance where he'd take 12 to cascade into it, those were ideal situations though.
Finks fills several roles, maindeck life gain, sacrifice fodder at 3cc, value against bolt decks, especially with gavony township. I do have to agree with Jeff that he sometimes does not impact the board enough, if you have a finks in play and are facing down a 3/4 goyf from jund or 6 untapped lands from jeskai nahiri with a colonnade in play you'll feel pretty bad.
To be fair, we could say the same for Ruric Thar or Elesh Norn, both are just good in ideal situations where you are actually able to cast or evolution into them.
Not only are they good in ideal situations - they flat out lock people out of the game / win games single handedly. The floor on Ruric Thar is they take 6 damage - which isn't bad in our more aggressive build. The floor on Elesh is wiping most of their creatures away.
The floor on finks is gain 2-4 life.
Are we really making the argument that a top end bomb that wins the game on its own when it hits the field is similar to a 3 drops that generates minimal value even when it is at its best? They are functionally different things.
Courser seems weak to me in an Evo shell. No value upon ETB, free information for the opponent, and a lackluster Evo target as it just dies without leaving anything on the battlefield.
Evolution isn't Birthiing Pod. You have at most four uses of it every game. We have a pile of creatures that generate value with Evolution already. In old Pod lists Finks made sense - after you podded the front half away you wanted a back half to Pod away again.
I don't think anybody is including Finks merely with ideal situations in mind - we're including it because of how good it is in a lot of situations
Like? Again - sell me on the card. So far the only thing close to reasonable for it involves a mana creature living into Evolution on turn three - which is such a great start it doesn't need to be finks to be good. Any creature will do that has value like Wall / Voice / Witness.
Like sticking around after you sacrifice it. No idea why we're going in circles on this. Witness can't evolve into a Resto that blinks said Witness and gives you additional value. It's synergy.
Like sticking around after you sacrifice it. No idea why we're going in circles on this. Witness can't evolve into a Resto that blinks said Witness and gives you additional value. It's synergy.
You can evolve witness into Lark though which is infinitely more value and basically better against everything that isn't Burn / Hyper aggro than turning Finks into Resto. These super aggressive decks are already OK matches - so I wouldn't want to play a lack luster card just to try and improve them more.
Hey Jeff, big fan here. I was wondering where the purpose or utility lies in including Ruric Thar...I can see that he punishes control decks for using removal, counters etc. but we already play various value creatures, many of which like Reveillark are a lot more back breaking for these decks. I can also see how he benefits against aggressive strategies or combo decks in locking them out quickly, but he just seems too slow to be of relevance in those matchups. I apologize in advance for asking a possibly redundant question, but I cannot help but feel like he is just a win-more inclusion.
Ruric Thar can come out as early as T4 which just wins against a lot of combo decks and is great vs Nahiri Jeskai. I would think of it as a psuedo Eidolon of Rhetoric but better.
I would love to hear Jeff's thoughts on Elesh Norn though. It's great vs Infect, Affinity, Zoo, etc, but those decks are so fast that Norn is too slow. The fact that it is a clunky draw makes me not want to play it. It seems good in the SB when we can bring in more removal to last long enough to play it, but I just feel it's slow and would love some rational on why it see's play MB.
Elesh was in the main deck because I built that list after being awake for almost 24 hours on 3 hours of sleep the night before. I wanted to draw / have access to it in as many games as possible to see if it was actually good or not. Not sure I'd play it again. Have a few days to decide before the open this weekend.
To be fair, we could say the same for Ruric Thar or Elesh Norn, both are just good in ideal situations where you are actually able to cast or evolution into them.
Not only are they good in ideal situations - they flat out lock people out of the game / win games single handedly. The floor on Ruric Thar is they take 6 damage - which isn't bad in our more aggressive build. The floor on Elesh is wiping most of their creatures away.
The floor on finks is gain 2-4 life.
Are we really making the argument that a top end bomb that wins the game on its own when it hits the field is similar to a 3 drops that generates minimal value even when it is at its best? They are functionally different things.
I am not comparing them to each other, more so trying to fit them into your argument/criteria of "do not play cards which aren't good except in ideal situations" , it doesn't matter if it's a 1 cc card or a 15 cc card. And the floor on Elesh is definitely not "wipe most of their creatures away".
floor on Elesh is definitely not "wipe most of their creatures away".
If this isn't the floor you board it out. Possible it even belongs in the board to start.
it Norn good enough vs Infect, Affinity, and Zoo? Doesn't seem like it can come out fast enough. That's why I like it in the SB when we bring in Helix/Explosives which buys us more time to land a Norn.
Been playing with finks for the past few weeks and have never thought I was going to be able to Evo it twice, once reliably is all I'm looking for. Outside of exile effects, it usually takes two cards to deal with a finks...so its likely to be around next turn to evo into my 4-5 drops. To me the other options are Courser, which I would be very reluctant to Evo away before getting value out of the card, or more walls (I guess they act as psuedo life gain in some aggro matchups, blocking for a turn before they are Evo'd away). I'm already running two witnesses.
My local meta has been pretty aggro-oriented so having a card that fills the role of early lifegain, recurring blocker, value evo sac, non-defender clock has been working out great so far.
Well, at that point you better include myr superion. Not in the 3cmc slot but it doesn't need to die to be a 5/5.
More seriously, and on the finks arguing, I don't think you need 2 evos to make it worthy. Just evo it once and you still have a body. In my book, that's some value.
So the argument is that when we have our ideal start (turn 1 dork that lives) it is a passable card?
Don't build decks around ideal situations. Build decks to make less than ideal situations less bad for you. Finks doesn't do this.
No, the argument is that when we have our ideal start it's a great card. Turn 1 dork into turn 2 Finks into turn 3 Evo -> Resto gives you 6 life, a 3/2 with Persist, and a 3/4 flyer on turn 3. That's not 'passable', that's huge.
Even when we don't have our ideal start, it still generates value, board presence and useful synergy in most of our matchups.
As such, I don't think anybody is including Finks merely with ideal situations in mind - we're including it because of how good it is in a lot of situations.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Besides, we already run Witness alongside it. No sense running an entire playset as Evo exiles itself upon resolution.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Evolution isn't Birthiing Pod. You have at most four uses of it every game. We have a pile of creatures that generate value with Evolution already. In old Pod lists Finks made sense - after you podded the front half away you wanted a back half to Pod away again.
Like? Again - sell me on the card. So far the only thing close to reasonable for it involves a mana creature living into Evolution on turn three - which is such a great start it doesn't need to be finks to be good. Any creature will do that has value like Wall / Voice / Witness.
Finks fills several roles, maindeck life gain, sacrifice fodder at 3cc, value against bolt decks, especially with gavony township. I do have to agree with Jeff that he sometimes does not impact the board enough, if you have a finks in play and are facing down a 3/4 goyf from jund or 6 untapped lands from jeskai nahiri with a colonnade in play you'll feel pretty bad.
Not only are they good in ideal situations - they flat out lock people out of the game / win games single handedly. The floor on Ruric Thar is they take 6 damage - which isn't bad in our more aggressive build. The floor on Elesh is wiping most of their creatures away.
The floor on finks is gain 2-4 life.
Are we really making the argument that a top end bomb that wins the game on its own when it hits the field is similar to a 3 drops that generates minimal value even when it is at its best? They are functionally different things.
Like sticking around after you sacrifice it. No idea why we're going in circles on this. Witness can't evolve into a Resto that blinks said Witness and gives you additional value. It's synergy.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
You can evolve witness into Lark though which is infinitely more value and basically better against everything that isn't Burn / Hyper aggro than turning Finks into Resto. These super aggressive decks are already OK matches - so I wouldn't want to play a lack luster card just to try and improve them more.
Ruric Thar can come out as early as T4 which just wins against a lot of combo decks and is great vs Nahiri Jeskai. I would think of it as a psuedo Eidolon of Rhetoric but better.
I would love to hear Jeff's thoughts on Elesh Norn though. It's great vs Infect, Affinity, Zoo, etc, but those decks are so fast that Norn is too slow. The fact that it is a clunky draw makes me not want to play it. It seems good in the SB when we can bring in more removal to last long enough to play it, but I just feel it's slow and would love some rational on why it see's play MB.
I am not comparing them to each other, more so trying to fit them into your argument/criteria of "do not play cards which aren't good except in ideal situations" , it doesn't matter if it's a 1 cc card or a 15 cc card. And the floor on Elesh is definitely not "wipe most of their creatures away".
If this isn't the floor you board it out. Possible it even belongs in the board to start.
it Norn good enough vs Infect, Affinity, and Zoo? Doesn't seem like it can come out fast enough. That's why I like it in the SB when we bring in Helix/Explosives which buys us more time to land a Norn.
My local meta has been pretty aggro-oriented so having a card that fills the role of early lifegain, recurring blocker, value evo sac, non-defender clock has been working out great so far.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki