i agree. more beatdown means more rhino if you want to go that way. the difference between 19 and 20 isn't that huge. gives you a bigger body. plus, you could always get back ewit that can then get back rhino. seems sexy.
I'd run a second Rhino over the second P&K in that case.
second rhino would put reveillark target to 19 though..
Well yeah, you can't have your cake and eat it. You said you wanted a more beatdown-oriented list.
Yeah I know, and you are probably right.
I initially was concerned with the heavy black splash, but since I went with the more greedy mana base I'll just try the 2nd Rhino, especially for testing
Maindeck Sigarda and Rhino are great from my testing. Rhino is better than baloth imo if youre running the black splash. Sigarda wins games on her own. For me she's the 5-drop of choice. More of a win-con than Thragtusk (and Rhino covers the lifegain role nicely). Lark is good but too susceptible to graveyard hate for my liking.
I agree with Hoogland about Finks. It's just not impactful enough. I'd rather have more walls to evolve into rhino or pia.
Also I think Dryad arbor is now a great addition. Consider this scenario against a control/midrange deck: they've killed all your threats up to turn 4, you have 2 evos in hand and a windswept heath, but no creatures. Without arbor you're now stuck with nothing to do. With Arbor, you play the heath, fetch arbor and immediately evo it into a Voice. You could also use it to evolve into a selfless spirit or Spellskute to protect your board.
I don't get the Finks not being impactful enough discussion, a finks with an eldritch evolution can win the zoo and burn matchups on their own. Going turn 2 finks or eldritch evolution your dork into a finks, then turn 3 eldritch evo your finks away into resto blinking the finks is just lights out, you gained 6, have a reset finks and a piece of the combo in play on turn 3.
Finks provides excellent eldritch evolution fodder, a value creature for our 3 cc slot which needs more than a bolt from jeskai/jund to die, and a bullet for zoo/burn all in one which frees 1 or 2 slots MD usually reserved for the burn matchup. This means that with an additional baloth/thragtusk in the SB we'd have our burn/bushwacker zoo matchups covered.
Additionally, against Jund I believe finks is also needed simply due to the fact that if our opponent removes our creatures we will not have any eldritch evolution targets and risk having them stuck in hand. A good jund player will try to discard and kill your creatures right off the bat if he sees a creature light hand, and our best evolution fodder, voice, gets transformed into a token if he dies. Finks mantains the 3cc which is extremely relevant for our deck.
If we'd have better 3cc options available I would get the skepticism, but it's not like we have alot of solid alternatives whilst we need to mantain the 3cc density at a decent amount.
I'm still 50/50 on this. Reclamation Sage is a terrible card in so many MUs MD. But Evo'ing into it T2 on the play to pop a Map, Overseer or Vial is pretty relevant. Pridemage at least offers up a reasonable body, exalted and is a fine turn 2 play in almost any MU.
Yeah there is no denying that Qasali is better, I actually prefer him against all tier 1 decks where I want such an effect (except tron and against eidolon from burn).
Infect and affinity have manlands which an eldritch evolutioned rec sage cannot touch, and against affinity I find that often just having the threat of a Qasali on board is better than a 1 time use since he buys you alot of time against a ravager on board, they can't go all in while you have him in play.
I'd merely prefer Rec Sage MD in this deck since it is an effect we will rarely want g1 anyways, and he slots better in my 3 cc slot than Qasali does in my 2cc one. I guess he does have, as you demonstrated with the possible turn 2 plays, the advantage that you can eldritch evolution into him with 3 lands and do not need another mana to activate him unlike Qasali.
i think the argument hoogland makes is that the body on finks isn't relevant enough to play it on it's own... if burn ever taps out you're going to want baloth instead of finks since if they ever untap with skullcrack or atarka's command you're going to want baloth instead.... baloth does more to deter attacking also... dropping one finks on the board by itself is not going to autowin against burn in other words...
i do see arguments for the 3 drop slot since there is a huge void there... and i think having one copy is fine for the jund matchup since it's probably your second best card there behind voice....
That 5-0 list looks ridiculously greedy. Five colors, maindeck 'Blood Moon', Elesh Norn, Ruric Thar. Can we get greedier? Apparently it worked, though.
so eldritch evolution brings me back here. I use to love kikipod and it was my favorite deck but when pod was banned it lost something. I think evolution gives it something it lost so im going to be trying the following list. A lot of people are immediately going to say why thalia? well she screws over way more people than myself and i use to use her in the original pod. I feel like thune should be the other 5 drop a swell. The nahiri SB is just something im testing so depending it may be taken out.
Reading other people's thoughts on Chord is wild. I almost feel like I must be playing a different deck than many posting here. For instance - someone said Eldrazi and Hatebears are bad matchups for this deck - I think they are some of the best possible. You could keep up with Eldrazi when they had Eye and now that they don't you are just a better midrange deck than they are.
Fully believe this is a midrange deck first and a combo deck second. If you are playing it because you think it is a combo deck there are a LOT better choices for comboing in modern that are less clunky than a 4 cost + 5 cost combo that dies to lightning bolt.
The best logic I've seen for Kitchen Finks is "it evolves twice". Which means it is good when you've drawn two copies of evolution. If you draw two copies of evolution - ANY - of your creatures are going to be great. Don't play less than ideal cards to maximize for ideal situations. You want to construct your decks to maximize your ability to gain edges in average situations and even bad ones. Finks just doesn't do this.
Hey Jeff! big fan, couple questions: what are your thoughts on fitting courser into the evolution deck? (its such a card advantage house, always felt it was clutch when playing the old versions of the deck)
Noticed you've gone for the simple three colors.
Thoughts on including blue in this version for glen elendra/staticcaster/maybe exarch? (I was thinking glen elendra for scapeshift and others but I guess there's always aven mind censor)
and then of course black, with things like slaughter games (but I think theres less of an argument b/c pontiff is replaced by elesh born for that kind of effect)
haven't been playing the deck for that long (loving it so far), so these are just guesses, I'd love to hear to hear your thoughts. (You are the Master after all)
Courser is probably fine again. I've got one in the latest list that I talked about in my post Baltimore write up.
Honestly - not having awkward ones ofs like Pontif, Glen, and Sin Collector in my deck felt good.
Scapeshift is just a bad matchup. You can play a pile of cards and it will still be bad. In modern that is just how things go - nothing beats everything. I feel like too many people are not willing to write off a matchup in modern. Dodging / hoping to get a bit lucky is a fine plan against a few things if it takes a pile of board cards to skew a matchup to even.
You're right just saw your write-up. Thank you for responding, and excellent article by the way. Did you see the five color list that went up recently https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/455428#paper ? kind of greedy, but interesting. Though I think you might have disagreed in the past with magus of the moon. (Also reflector mage is interesting, may not be worth a slot tho)
What were your final thoughts on the darwin abzan list you tested, I still really want to get siege rhino to work.
Hi all, big fan of the deck and I'm rebuilding my Abzan CoCo to Kiki chord (blue or black version).
However I like to ask a SB question. What are your thoughts on Avalanche Riders and Fulminator Mage? Which one is favoured?
Fulminator Mage is better on the curve but Riders has such an advantage in combination with Restoration Angel.
IMO it depends on your list setup. My view is that when we need land destruction we at least need the effect twice. Tron and scapeshift are too redundant to care about one land loss.
recurring the effect with fulmi likely costs 9 cmc (with ewit) while chaining the effect with avalanche + resto is 8 cmc.
so bottom line is:
- have you enough access to resto when needed,
- when can you play it at the earliest ?
in my deck, i have 4 resto, 4 chord and 3 shaman, so likely access to resto to chain avalanche. on top, i can play the riders turn 2 with my manabase. so avalanche is MD.
in evo or nahiri build, you generally have 4 chord and 3 angel and earliest turn for riders is turn 3. There I would maindeck fulmi if you need Ld, especially considering the 4 evo which can turn a dork into fulmi on T2.
I really like Woodland Bellower here. I often find myself wanting to EVO P&K into something super impactful. Imagine getting Woodland Bellower, grabbing Phantasmal Image, copying Woodland Bellower, grabbing E-Wit, getting P&K out of the yard. That's 14 power on the board for 3 mana. Stupid!
The "non-legendary green" text really hinders Woodland Bellower, otherwise he'd be a much better card. The 6-drop I have been most impressed with is definitely the Ruric Thar, unfortunately my meta is full of affinity, elves, bushwacker zoo and other linear aggro decks for which he is just too clunky.
Well yeah, you can't have your cake and eat it. You said you wanted a more beatdown-oriented list.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Yeah I know, and you are probably right.
I initially was concerned with the heavy black splash, but since I went with the more greedy mana base I'll just try the 2nd Rhino, especially for testing
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I agree with Hoogland about Finks. It's just not impactful enough. I'd rather have more walls to evolve into rhino or pia.
Also I think Dryad arbor is now a great addition. Consider this scenario against a control/midrange deck: they've killed all your threats up to turn 4, you have 2 evos in hand and a windswept heath, but no creatures. Without arbor you're now stuck with nothing to do. With Arbor, you play the heath, fetch arbor and immediately evo it into a Voice. You could also use it to evolve into a selfless spirit or Spellskute to protect your board.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Finks provides excellent eldritch evolution fodder, a value creature for our 3 cc slot which needs more than a bolt from jeskai/jund to die, and a bullet for zoo/burn all in one which frees 1 or 2 slots MD usually reserved for the burn matchup. This means that with an additional baloth/thragtusk in the SB we'd have our burn/bushwacker zoo matchups covered.
Additionally, against Jund I believe finks is also needed simply due to the fact that if our opponent removes our creatures we will not have any eldritch evolution targets and risk having them stuck in hand. A good jund player will try to discard and kill your creatures right off the bat if he sees a creature light hand, and our best evolution fodder, voice, gets transformed into a token if he dies. Finks mantains the 3cc which is extremely relevant for our deck.
If we'd have better 3cc options available I would get the skepticism, but it's not like we have alot of solid alternatives whilst we need to mantain the 3cc density at a decent amount.
Yeah there is no denying that Qasali is better, I actually prefer him against all tier 1 decks where I want such an effect (except tron and against eidolon from burn).
Infect and affinity have manlands which an eldritch evolutioned rec sage cannot touch, and against affinity I find that often just having the threat of a Qasali on board is better than a 1 time use since he buys you alot of time against a ravager on board, they can't go all in while you have him in play.
I'd merely prefer Rec Sage MD in this deck since it is an effect we will rarely want g1 anyways, and he slots better in my 3 cc slot than Qasali does in my 2cc one. I guess he does have, as you demonstrated with the possible turn 2 plays, the advantage that you can eldritch evolution into him with 3 lands and do not need another mana to activate him unlike Qasali.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/455428#paper
i do see arguments for the 3 drop slot since there is a huge void there... and i think having one copy is fine for the jund matchup since it's probably your second best card there behind voice....
4 windswept heath
2 arid mesa
1 wooded foothills
2 stomping ground
2 temple garden
1 sacred foundry
1 horizon canopy
1 raging ravine
1 sunpetal grove
1 gavony township
3 forest
2 plains
1 mountain
creatures 29
4 birds of paradise
1 spellskite
2 wall of roots
3 wall of omens
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 voice of resurgence
2 eternal witness
1 thalia, heretic cathar
1 spike feeder
3 kitchen finks
2 restoration angel
2 pia and kiran nalaar
1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
1 archangel of thune
4 eldritch evolution
3 chord of calling
2 path to exile
2 path to exile
2 scavenging ooze
2 reclamation sage
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 melira, sylvok outcast
1 thragtusk
1 selfless spirit
2 stony silence
3 nahiri, the harbinger
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
Fully believe this is a midrange deck first and a combo deck second. If you are playing it because you think it is a combo deck there are a LOT better choices for comboing in modern that are less clunky than a 4 cost + 5 cost combo that dies to lightning bolt.
The best logic I've seen for Kitchen Finks is "it evolves twice". Which means it is good when you've drawn two copies of evolution. If you draw two copies of evolution - ANY - of your creatures are going to be great. Don't play less than ideal cards to maximize for ideal situations. You want to construct your decks to maximize your ability to gain edges in average situations and even bad ones. Finks just doesn't do this.
Noticed you've gone for the simple three colors.
Thoughts on including blue in this version for glen elendra/staticcaster/maybe exarch? (I was thinking glen elendra for scapeshift and others but I guess there's always aven mind censor)
and then of course black, with things like slaughter games (but I think theres less of an argument b/c pontiff is replaced by elesh born for that kind of effect)
haven't been playing the deck for that long (loving it so far), so these are just guesses, I'd love to hear to hear your thoughts. (You are the Master after all)
Honestly - not having awkward ones ofs like Pontif, Glen, and Sin Collector in my deck felt good.
Scapeshift is just a bad matchup. You can play a pile of cards and it will still be bad. In modern that is just how things go - nothing beats everything. I feel like too many people are not willing to write off a matchup in modern. Dodging / hoping to get a bit lucky is a fine plan against a few things if it takes a pile of board cards to skew a matchup to even.
What were your final thoughts on the darwin abzan list you tested, I still really want to get siege rhino to work.
Including against your own deck if played out eldritch ?
magus is fragile in numerous MUs, including where we need him the most (tron and scapeshift).
IMO it depends on your list setup. My view is that when we need land destruction we at least need the effect twice. Tron and scapeshift are too redundant to care about one land loss.
recurring the effect with fulmi likely costs 9 cmc (with ewit) while chaining the effect with avalanche + resto is 8 cmc.
so bottom line is:
- have you enough access to resto when needed,
- when can you play it at the earliest ?
in my deck, i have 4 resto, 4 chord and 3 shaman, so likely access to resto to chain avalanche. on top, i can play the riders turn 2 with my manabase. so avalanche is MD.
in evo or nahiri build, you generally have 4 chord and 3 angel and earliest turn for riders is turn 3. There I would maindeck fulmi if you need Ld, especially considering the 4 evo which can turn a dork into fulmi on T2.
I really like Woodland Bellower here. I often find myself wanting to EVO P&K into something super impactful. Imagine getting Woodland Bellower, grabbing Phantasmal Image, copying Woodland Bellower, grabbing E-Wit, getting P&K out of the yard. That's 14 power on the board for 3 mana. Stupid!