blood moon ends your life. Pretty badly. Mana base seems rather painful, again probably because of the 4th color splash. Mainboard monastery siege makes me cry out in pain. Three sideboarded liliana also makes me hurt inside. Both the fact that you're playing liliana in a deck that's trying to build some amount of card advantage, and that you're sideboarding THREE copies of liliana.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Splashing red in this deck seems bad. You need Bolt t1 to kill the Infect creatures and mana dorks from CoCo, so your mana base will be a nightmare: you'll be even worse against Blood Moon and take more damage from your lands, so your aggro matchup will get worse. Besides Bolt, you get maybe Ancient Grudge, Electrolyze and Roast. At that point I would just play RUG Twin or UWR Control.
I've recently started rocking Sultai control and this looks like the closest thread to what I run. I have limited variety of opponents but I feel the deck has quite a bit of game. I feel it has a positive match against the other premiere midrange decks of the format IME. Heres where I'm at atm:
My board is still getting dialed. Obviously there are a few choices like GftT and only 2 snaps which are debatable. And of course the lack of goyf. For starters GftT IMO is the best alternative black removal here outside of one bad match really but that isn't going to keep it out of my list as a 1-of for game 1. The 3rd snap might be correct, the main issue is the deck is really pushing the limit of delve/flashback as it is without including bad cards like thought scour. Was on 3 initially and will probably put the 3rd back in. This is also the reason I had to move away from murderous cut. I found it wasn't relevant early enough and competed with better cards i.e. SCM/tasigur. No goyf looks wrong but hear me out. This deck aims to go long and drop hard to 1-for-1 threats that go over the top and generate card advantage. That and I am looking specifically for some form of immunity to LotV decks. Goyf doesn't really do any of these things although he can occasionally get free wins. The other issue is the amount of delve and oozes running around really hates out goyf. So far I havent missed him although I have enjoyed playing my opponents goyfs. I also noted that once I quite trying to play goyf the deck began functioning how i wanted. Goyf tends to make you play a tempo game with cantrips and disruption and I don't feel this deck does that as well as say RUG or jund.
Finks is another pretty obvious inclusion that I tried for awhile and it has felt alright in the main as a 2-of but I've moved it to the side for now due to putting too much strain on the manabase. It does meet my criteria to an extent but it doesn't have the same presence as the others I'm currently using.
Speaking of manabases the lone hinterland harbor might could be flooded grove but tapping 2 lands is sometimes not where I want to be early and the harbor has been stellar so far. Where I'm really still up in the air on atm is the counter suite.
I'm basically looking at making this deck better than the other midrange decks in the format, which I feel it is a serious contender. I see BUG doing that by largely invalidating decays, trading favorably with paths/wraths and abusing the free lands path gives. Anyway thats where I'm at.
I have a hard enough time justifying running Garruk, Primal Hunter in the SB with its casting cost (still don't like it). I guess if you really wanted to you could add some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but our mana base is already so fragile and at that point I agree you should probably just be running B/G.
Thanks for your list, dominus. Personally I think Tarmogoyf is the best card in the deck, and turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf is a beating. I do kind of like the idea of diversifying the threats in the deck so we don't get as blown out by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. The problem is that there aren't a lot of low-cost threats in our color pie that are up to the power level of Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, or Snapcaster Mage. Several examples of possibilities, some of which has been mentioned:
Kitchen Finks - Another good form of life recovery to complement Thragtusk and an annoying card to deal with outside of Path to Exile. Has a bit of synergy with Damnation. The obvious issue is the prohibitive mana cost. I think Twilight Mire is necessary if you are running this.
Delver of Secrets - I think a Sultai Delver list could work, but it would look very different to this deck.
Vendilion Clique - Already played in many SB. I'm not really keen on running in maindeck with so many Lingering Souls and Lightning Bolt floating around, but if left unanswered will end the game quickly.
As much as I worry about anti-GY strategies, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the raw power of this deck's core creatures in order to protect yourself from it.
I think Ashiok serves the role of alternative win-con fairly well, but I wish we had something that fought a larger portion of the meta.
What are people's thoughts on Murmurs from Beyond over Compulsive Research? It's instant speed, will always net you 2 cards, and fuels Delve. I find when -2'ing Jace I am almost always choosing the 2 card pile largely to ensure I am gaining card advantage over an opponent with whom I am hopefully mostly trading 1-for-1s
I'm thinking this deck is in a decent position right now. It has a lot of game against Twin and Junk, which I think will be one of the two more popular choices at the upcoming GP in Charlotte. One card in particular I am worried about is Collected Company. It's a very scary card if it's resolved against us, even if it just for value. I am currently packing a pretty heavy removal suite with 2 Damnation, but I know this is the one card I am going to have to always have on my radar.
HelloFriendo- thanks for your thoughts man. I've been playing goyf tempo decks for years and I adore them. I'm trying something different atm because goyf can force more of a tempo plan. Replacing him with higher cc harder to remove threats let's you commit to slow roll (good and bad at times) which naturally combats opposing goyfs. It's probably wrong but so far the deck has felt really strong this way. Having every threat dodge abrupt decay or 2 or 3-for-1 them even through PtE is excellent. They steal much of the tempo gain usually seen from 1cc removal especially since the lands forward your game. It beats on jund pretty hard. Idk I'll keep running it with small tweaks for now.
Honestly damnation and ashiok have consistently felt like the 2 most extraneous cards although both are occasionally instrumental. Thrun I haven't seen that much but he usually stalls the board excellently. Titan otoh is **** diesel I've only lost one game where I resolved him, which happens pretty often.
Murmurs I haven't tried although it looks bad letting your opponent decide. Research however is amazing. It's the closest thing BUG has to brainstorm that I've seen, and that's legal. It's this decks revelation, better more often than not especially with SCM. I'm honestly considering running 2 although I suspect that would get clunky.
Based on what I am hearing, this deck struggles versus aggro strats. Wouldn't Polukranos, World Eater find a home here since he can pit fight creatures with his monstrosity?
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I have a hard enough time justifying running Garruk, Primal Hunter in the SB with its casting cost (still don't like it). I guess if you really wanted to you could add some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but our mana base is already so fragile and at that point I agree you should probably just be running B/G.
Thanks for your list, dominus. Personally I think Tarmogoyf is the best card in the deck, and turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf is a beating. I do kind of like the idea of diversifying the threats in the deck so we don't get as blown out by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. The problem is that there aren't a lot of low-cost threats in our color pie that are up to the power level of Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, or Snapcaster Mage. Several examples of possibilities, some of which has been mentioned:
Kitchen Finks - Another good form of life recovery to complement Thragtusk and an annoying card to deal with outside of Path to Exile. Has a bit of synergy with Damnation. The obvious issue is the prohibitive mana cost. I think Twilight Mire is necessary if you are running this.
Delver of Secrets - I think a Sultai Delver list could work, but it would look very different to this deck.
Vendilion Clique - Already played in many SB. I'm not really keen on running in maindeck with so many Lingering Souls and Lightning Bolt floating around, but if left unanswered will end the game quickly.
As much as I worry about anti-GY strategies, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the raw power of this deck's core creatures in order to protect yourself from it.
I think Ashiok serves the role of alternative win-con fairly well, but I wish we had something that fought a larger portion of the meta.
What are people's thoughts on Murmurs from Beyond over Compulsive Research? It's instant speed, will always net you 2 cards, and fuels Delve. I find when -2'ing Jace I am almost always choosing the 2 card pile largely to ensure I am gaining card advantage over an opponent with whom I am hopefully mostly trading 1-for-1s
I'm thinking this deck is in a decent position right now. It has a lot of game against Twin and Junk, which I think will be one of the two more popular choices at the upcoming GP in Charlotte. One card in particular I am worried about is Collected Company. It's a very scary card if it's resolved against us, even if it just for value. I am currently packing a pretty heavy removal suite with 2 Damnation, but I know this is the one card I am going to have to always have on my radar.
IMO:
You don't need a Goyf/Tasigur/Angler type of card if you have a few creature slots open. Scavenging Ooze can fill some of Finks' role with lifegain, while also being good at fighting opposing GY strategies. It addresses some weaknesses in many of the builds we are seeing today that don't run it.
Compulsive Research in the Fabiano build is better as he built it with a good quantity of land to pitch to the discard clause. I'm running 2 Research as they are good in both the attrition and control matchups.
If you are worried about Collected Company, find room in the main or side for Stubborn Denial - the deck is running 8 Ferocious enablers; by dealing with their namesake card, you rob them of a lot of their explosiveness. Scavenging Ooze also really good at fighting their persist creatures.
since we're on the subject of a Delver version (which probably should have it's own thread, but the idea came up here):
Given the build and the reliance on having Instants or Sorceries to flip Delver, the 2 Spellskites may be traded for meta-dependent spells.
Sudden Death seems like a great card against Twin (although I am seeing people board out the combo more and more for post-board games) Golgari Charm is an upgrade in a lot of our matchups and would never leave home without at least 2 in the 75. It is: a low level sweeper against decks like Affinity, Infect, and Bogles; also functions as a way to save your dudes from Abrupt Decay and Oblivion Stone; finally, it battles against Blood Moons and other enchantments.
I am starting to like Rain of Tears more and more - while it lacks the 2/2 body that Fulminator Mage does, it flips Delver and is recurrable with Snapcaster.
Feed the Clan is obviously great vs. Burn as it becomes a virtual Time Walk - it's also decent against swarmy aggro decks and buys us a precious turn or two to stabilize and draw a sweeper.
Board wipes are nice, and I have been fond of Drown in Sorrow recently.
IMO:
You don't need a Goyf/Tasigur/Angler type of card if you have a few creature slots open. Scavenging Ooze can fill some of Finks' role with lifegain, while also being good at fighting opposing GY strategies. It addresses some weaknesses in many of the builds we are seeing today that don't run it.
Compulsive Research in the Fabiano build is better as he built it with a good quantity of land to pitch to the discard clause. I'm running 2 Research as they are good in both the attrition and control matchups.
I agree with the above. A late scooze is fantastic and can quickly outgrow most opposition. Tasigur can come down early if needed but otherwise I find he's better late also when he becomes a card advantage engine.
Have you found 2 research to be too many at times? I've always been happy to see the singleton but I wonder about running 2. Considering trying it in place of a cantrip.
I agree with the above. A late scooze is fantastic and can quickly outgrow most opposition. Tasigur can come down early if needed but otherwise I find he's better late also when he becomes a card advantage engine.
Have you found 2 research to be too many at times? I've always been happy to see the singleton but I wonder about running 2. Considering trying it in place of a cantrip.
Good point with the Tasigur activation - I forgot to mention that. Scooze also pairs well with Tasigur's ability, allowing you eat the "dead" cards you don't want the opponent to give back to you before you activate the Bananaman. Depending on the state of the game, this could be another copy of Tasigur, Thoughtseize or Inquisition, etc. Or if you've got that ONE card you REALLY need, Scooze can eat around it.
Yes, I have found 2 Research to be too many - not sure what to cut it for though.
Hmm if 2 research is too many what about life from the loam instead? This format doesn't have a full loam engine but the card is still value especially against LotV.
IMO Loam required a lot of build around and I could see myself doing it if I cut Delver and put more lands (notably: Ghost Quarter or Tec Edge). I think it's one of those cards that demands play as a 3 or 4 of to get the desired effect
Thinking aloud here, but that last slot could really use something with the versatility level of a Kolaghan's Command. Plays great with Snapcaster and most of its modes are super relevant. Things we have available in those colors that posses a similar level of flexibility: Sultai Charm (mana inefficient), Simic Charm (low impact), Golgari Charm (might actually be pretty good):
G. charm functions as a:
Sweeper vs. Lingering Souls or Empty the Warrens tokens, as well as Bl/Inkmoth Nexus and mana dorks.
Blows up Blood Moon, Bitterblossom, Splinter Twin, Eidolon of the Great Revel
Surprise regenerate against most black based removal, Supreme Verdict, combat damage, direct damage, Abupt Decay, Oblivion Stone, etc.
I just started with the deck, so I can't really give you all the answers, but here are my first impressions.
Playing blue helps against combo decks like Bloom, Ad Nauseam, Storm and the like. You have counterspells and ways to dig for SB cards. The latter helps in all matchups, not only against combo of course.
The bad matchups for fair decks in Modern are basically all the same, so for this one isn't different. Burn, Infect, Affinity, Tron, Bogles, all that crazy linear non-interactive stuff that grows rampant in the format should give you trouble. Not really different from Junk/Jund, except maybe for Infect (which these decks can handle). The deck has no Bolt and sweepers for Infect and Affinity nor the awesome white SB cards like Stony Silence or the white staples like Path to Exile (overplayed in the format 'cause people ignore the downsides, but still very powerful) and Lingering Souls.
Everything that plays fair is a solid matchup. As in any matchup between fair decks, it mostly comes down to skill.
I'm currently 2-0 against Twin, 1-0 against Grixis Delver, 1-1 against Burn, 0-1 against Goryo, 0-1 against Vengevine (all in matches).
You do get access to Serum Vision, Mana Leak, Compulsive Research. Jace AoT, Vendilion Clique, Negate, Sower of Temptation, Spellskite is now better vs Burn (you actually have blue mana to use it) etc.
Honestly, I think it's not as good as Jund/Junk simply because in Modern blue is a support color for combo and tempo decks and doesn't do a lot more than that, so red and white have better tools for fair decks. That said, the deck is solid and I enjoy playing blue cards, so I like it.
Cards that are over performing in my testing are: Creeping Tar Pit (you have a lot of creatures they need to remove, so this guy often does work), Night of Souls' Betrayal, Spell Snare, Jace AoT, Damnation and Thragtusk.
In the end, having access to targeted discard remains one of the best things we can do when playing black, so I decided to play some Inquisitions. It also fuels your graveyard for Tasigur or Angler.
Depending on how my local meta settles, I may be more willing to run Darkblast main - I believe this card is particularly strong vs Delver decks (RUG/Grixis) and Affinity, but also has some fringe benefits when matching up against Collected Company decks (hits their mana dorks). It has great synergy when trying to pump out some delve fatties and helps break up Tarmogoyf/Tasigur/Rhino or Angler/Angler stalemates. Not sure what I would cut but I would start with the singleton Golgari Charm and move towards Slaughter Pact and Dismember if I need a third.
In the end, this build is probably not optimal - it's a hybrid between RUG/Grixis Delver tempo decks and GBx attrition so it suffers from a lack of focus. It's not running the 1-mana cantrips that power Delver decks and am essentially giving up Gitaxian Probe for Inquisition of Kozilek and Thought Scour for Spell Snare. This basically gives me pretty good percentages to have an answer problematic 2-drops in my opening 7 (Tarmogoyf, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, Voice of Resurgence, etc.) and along with Deprive, can help prevent Liliana of the Veil from hitting the board.
Not sure if I like it as it is, but if anyone wants to collaborate with me on this project I'd be glad for the help.
In the end, having access to targeted discard remains one of the best things we can do when playing black, so I decided to play some Inquisitions. It also fuels your graveyard for Tasigur or Angler.
Depending on how my local meta settles, I may be more willing to run Darkblast main - I believe this card is particularly strong vs Delver decks (RUG/Grixis) and Affinity, but also has some fringe benefits when matching up against Collected Company decks (hits their mana dorks). It has great synergy when trying to pump out some delve fatties and helps break up Tarmogoyf/Tasigur/Rhino or Angler/Angler stalemates. Not sure what I would cut but I would start with the singleton Golgari Charm and move towards Slaughter Pact and Dismember if I need a third.
In the end, this build is probably not optimal - it's a hybrid between RUG/Grixis Delver tempo decks and GBx attrition so it suffers from a lack of focus. It's not running the 1-mana cantrips that power Delver decks and am essentially giving up Gitaxian Probe for Inquisition of Kozilek and Thought Scour for Spell Snare. This basically gives me pretty good percentages to have an answer problematic 2-drops in my opening 7 (Tarmogoyf, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, Voice of Resurgence, etc.) and along with Deprive, can help prevent Liliana of the Veil from hitting the board.
Not sure if I like it as it is, but if anyone wants to collaborate with me on this project I'd be glad for the help.
Hey man I like your tempo variation of this list. I tried to make BUG delver work at the formats inception but never got very far and lost interest, however that was before so many good delve cards. Just like legacy this version will always compete with canadian thresh/RUG delver which is inherently more efficient. Unfortunately we don't have hymns, and tombstalker I'm not sure is quite the same bomb here (or is he?). Anyway the real incentive to go black is as you say discards and of course hard removal but there are a few other options I'd like to suggest.
For starters consider lowering the tasigur count by 1. In his place I would play 1-2 bobs, preferably 2 by cutting something. Bob is a guaranteed to cast at 2cc vs tasigur (or multiple tas) and really pressures your opponent to answer immediately or lose plus he feeds the yard by virtue of CA. Hes essentially perceived as the same threat level as goyf by opponents, or should be. This change would also allow you to consider switching out 1 pact for a murderous cut. 2 pacts seems like too much but I might be mistaken since I haven't used pact much outside of ANT. Either way on pact but bobs I would seriously consider. Otoh it would mean stubborn denial loses some value vs. say spell pierce so thats something to also consider. I personally think the trade offs would be worth it since PtE/bolt on delver is gonna happen pretty often even with denials in hand.
Ok heres a couple ideas that could be worth considering here maybe even more so than RUG which I take a page from their book. First I feel like 3 deprive is too many. 1, maaybe 2 but full 3 especially when combined with double pacts seems like too much tempo loss and clunky together. I want to like deprive but I always hated drawing it. Its a far cry from a poor mans daze sadly. Otoh disrupting shoal would increase your answers to problematic 2 drops similar/in conjunction to snares but without being quite so narrow and would also hard counter paths/bolts. Going off FoW math you would need around 20 blue cards to support it. If you shift a couple or even all deprives and/or another counter (snare/denial) to the side or just replace them with shoals you'd have 19 count. This leads into my next suggestion:
Either way have you considered dimir charm? Higher cost but much more versatile than scours and has great synergy with a set of shoals. It makes countering 2 drops 'for free' much more viable, increases both your removal and permission density and pretty much guarantees you'll flip delver while allowing you to dig for answers EoT. No cantrip hurts but the value in a tempo shell is higher than elsewhere and at worst it pitches to shoal. Fate seal is also a powerful way to close out a game as well when all you need is that one more turn or their digging for bolt. Anyway I think its potentially on par with discards for reasons to go black over RUG.
Lastly how has 20 lands been treating you? I know most TA shells run 20 but thats with 4 wastelands and similar curve with a couple 3 drops. I ask because I feel like theres room to include at least 1 tec edge to keep your soft permission active longer. Also on that note I've been running 3 darkslick shores as well (non tempo plan) and it really feels like I should go 4 or go down to 1 for more check lands. Just some thoughts.
don't ever add bobs while cutting slaughter pact for murderous cut. Flipping 5's vs 0's sucks.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Its a little risky but were literally talking about 1-2 tasigurs and maybe 1 cut with cantrip filtering. Or not.. Its really bobs inclusion I was getting at.
On the midrange topic I really feel like ooze's and finks are some of the best creatures green has right now. Finks in particular are incredibly annoying. They are great at anti LotV duty and protecting your own PWs. Plus you can use them with discards/counter setup to bait out PtE and make it look pretty bad when you respond with an early fatty.
I have played this deck for weeks now, my list can be shown a bit further up. I struggle hard versus the Tier 1 aggro (Burn, affinity and Infect) and most other aggro strategies that relies on creatures. What you think about including 4 Lightning bolt? I am thinking about swapping the 2 Creeping tar pit and 1 Tectonic edge versus something like Steam vents, stomping ground and Frontier Bivouac. I am removing 2 Thoughtseize and Ashiok, Nightmare weaver due to the lackluster this cards are versus aggro.
I have done many tests against Affinity, and I have to agree that this match up is very tough.
Even using the SB, It is not 50:50 match up if Affinity starts the game first.
If anyone has a better SB idea without changing the 15 SB cards much, please let me know.
------------------------------------------------
Regarding the match up against Burn, it is relatively easier for Sultai-Control.
SB in:
2 Feed the Clan
1 Spellskite
1 Nature's Claim
3 Disfigure
In the end, having access to targeted discard remains one of the best things we can do when playing black, so I decided to play some Inquisitions. It also fuels your graveyard for Tasigur or Angler.
Depending on how my local meta settles, I may be more willing to run Darkblast main - I believe this card is particularly strong vs Delver decks (RUG/Grixis) and Affinity, but also has some fringe benefits when matching up against Collected Company decks (hits their mana dorks). It has great synergy when trying to pump out some delve fatties and helps break up Tarmogoyf/Tasigur/Rhino or Angler/Angler stalemates. Not sure what I would cut but I would start with the singleton Golgari Charm and move towards Slaughter Pact and Dismember if I need a third.
In the end, this build is probably not optimal - it's a hybrid between RUG/Grixis Delver tempo decks and GBx attrition so it suffers from a lack of focus. It's not running the 1-mana cantrips that power Delver decks and am essentially giving up Gitaxian Probe for Inquisition of Kozilek and Thought Scour for Spell Snare. This basically gives me pretty good percentages to have an answer problematic 2-drops in my opening 7 (Tarmogoyf, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, Voice of Resurgence, etc.) and along with Deprive, can help prevent Liliana of the Veil from hitting the board.
Not sure if I like it as it is, but if anyone wants to collaborate with me on this project I'd be glad for the help.
Hey man I like your tempo variation of this list. I tried to make BUG delver work at the formats inception but never got very far and lost interest, however that was before so many good delve cards. Just like legacy this version will always compete with canadian thresh/RUG delver which is inherently more efficient. Unfortunately we don't have hymns, and tombstalker I'm not sure is quite the same bomb here (or is he?). Anyway the real incentive to go black is as you say discards and of course hard removal but there are a few other options I'd like to suggest.
For starters consider lowering the tasigur count by 1. In his place I would play 1-2 bobs, preferably 2 by cutting something. Bob is a guaranteed to cast at 2cc vs tasigur (or multiple tas) and really pressures your opponent to answer immediately or lose plus he feeds the yard by virtue of CA. Hes essentially perceived as the same threat level as goyf by opponents, or should be. This change would also allow you to consider switching out 1 pact for a murderous cut. 2 pacts seems like too much but I might be mistaken since I haven't used pact much outside of ANT. Either way on pact but bobs I would seriously consider. Otoh it would mean stubborn denial loses some value vs. say spell pierce so thats something to also consider. I personally think the trade offs would be worth it since PtE/bolt on delver is gonna happen pretty often even with denials in hand.
Ok heres a couple ideas that could be worth considering here maybe even more so than RUG which I take a page from their book. First I feel like 3 deprive is too many. 1, maaybe 2 but full 3 especially when combined with double pacts seems like too much tempo loss and clunky together. I want to like deprive but I always hated drawing it. Its a far cry from a poor mans daze sadly. Otoh disrupting shoal would increase your answers to problematic 2 drops similar/in conjunction to snares but without being quite so narrow and would also hard counter paths/bolts. Going off FoW math you would need around 20 blue cards to support it. If you shift a couple or even all deprives and/or another counter (snare/denial) to the side or just replace them with shoals you'd have 19 count. This leads into my next suggestion:
Either way have you considered dimir charm? Higher cost but much more versatile than scours and has great synergy with a set of shoals. It makes countering 2 drops 'for free' much more viable, increases both your removal and permission density and pretty much guarantees you'll flip delver while allowing you to dig for answers EoT. No cantrip hurts but the value in a tempo shell is higher than elsewhere and at worst it pitches to shoal. Fate seal is also a powerful way to close out a game as well when all you need is that one more turn or their digging for bolt. Anyway I think its potentially on par with discards for reasons to go black over RUG.
Lastly how has 20 lands been treating you? I know most TA shells run 20 but thats with 4 wastelands and similar curve with a couple 3 drops. I ask because I feel like theres room to include at least 1 tec edge to keep your soft permission active longer. Also on that note I've been running 3 darkslick shores as well (non tempo plan) and it really feels like I should go 4 or go down to 1 for more check lands. Just some thoughts.
Thanks for the input. There are definitely some good takeaways, but one of the good things about running true mix of Goyf and Tasigur/Angler is that most of my big guys pass the Bolt test. Cutting Tasigurs for Bob not only weakens my threat mix against Bolt, but also Abrupt Decay. I am pretty light on threats as-is, and need what I resolve to stick around and do some damage.
Going off the RUG build which I've been following as well - the pilot that won the SCG event is a frequent poster here. He runs Curiosity and a bunch of cantrips to keep the cards flowing. The way this deck is built so far, it does not have a card advantage engine at that level.
What I like about Slaughter Pact is that against Twin, it is essentially a Force of Will that does not cost you an extra card and actually 2 for 1s the opponent. With it, you can engage in a counter war with them over Splinter Twin and still win by playing Pact.
About the lands - I am casually familiar with Legacy and know a few general decks and game plans. I would assume that the deck we are approximating this list to runs Brainstorms - that card pulls so much weight in the format and does its job so well, I don't think there is a good comparison here with Serum Visions. I guess there must be a lot of similarities to Team America the way this deck is built, but those similarities are not intentional - these are the cards I've selected to attack the format.
I played Tombstalker for a while and didn't like it. The BB is hard to generate, especially when you want access to UU (Deprive) and 1G (Goyf) and BG (Decay) on Turn 2.
I don't mean to slam your ideas as there's a lot of good stuff here - I particularly like the idea of running soft permission and mana denial with Tec Edge. Mana Leak is not only easier to cast, it also synergies well with discard. With previous midrangy builds of this deck, I ran a full 4 Mana Leak with 3 Snares, 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Inquisition. This enabled really messed up starting lines of play where you could T1 discard, T2 Spell Snare, T3 Mana Leak, or T1 discard, T2 discard with Spell Snare up, T3 Serum Vision with Mana Leak up and set up the rest of your game... then drop a Goyf with a bunch of stuff in the bin and bash until the opponent top decks an answer.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
3 Thragtusk
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Grave Titan
//3 Planeswalkers
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
//5 Draw
2 Serum Visions
2 Anticipate
1 Compulsive Research
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Mana Leak
2 Thoughtseize
1 Countersquall
//8 Removal
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Go for the Throat
1 Damnation
1 Dismember
//24 Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Tectonic Edge
My board is still getting dialed. Obviously there are a few choices like GftT and only 2 snaps which are debatable. And of course the lack of goyf. For starters GftT IMO is the best alternative black removal here outside of one bad match really but that isn't going to keep it out of my list as a 1-of for game 1. The 3rd snap might be correct, the main issue is the deck is really pushing the limit of delve/flashback as it is without including bad cards like thought scour. Was on 3 initially and will probably put the 3rd back in. This is also the reason I had to move away from murderous cut. I found it wasn't relevant early enough and competed with better cards i.e. SCM/tasigur. No goyf looks wrong but hear me out. This deck aims to go long and drop hard to 1-for-1 threats that go over the top and generate card advantage. That and I am looking specifically for some form of immunity to LotV decks. Goyf doesn't really do any of these things although he can occasionally get free wins. The other issue is the amount of delve and oozes running around really hates out goyf. So far I havent missed him although I have enjoyed playing my opponents goyfs. I also noted that once I quite trying to play goyf the deck began functioning how i wanted. Goyf tends to make you play a tempo game with cantrips and disruption and I don't feel this deck does that as well as say RUG or jund.
Finks is another pretty obvious inclusion that I tried for awhile and it has felt alright in the main as a 2-of but I've moved it to the side for now due to putting too much strain on the manabase. It does meet my criteria to an extent but it doesn't have the same presence as the others I'm currently using.
Speaking of manabases the lone hinterland harbor might could be flooded grove but tapping 2 lands is sometimes not where I want to be early and the harbor has been stellar so far. Where I'm really still up in the air on atm is the counter suite.
I'm basically looking at making this deck better than the other midrange decks in the format, which I feel it is a serious contender. I see BUG doing that by largely invalidating decays, trading favorably with paths/wraths and abusing the free lands path gives. Anyway thats where I'm at.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Thanks for your list, dominus. Personally I think Tarmogoyf is the best card in the deck, and turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf is a beating. I do kind of like the idea of diversifying the threats in the deck so we don't get as blown out by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. The problem is that there aren't a lot of low-cost threats in our color pie that are up to the power level of Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, or Snapcaster Mage. Several examples of possibilities, some of which has been mentioned:
Kitchen Finks - Another good form of life recovery to complement Thragtusk and an annoying card to deal with outside of Path to Exile. Has a bit of synergy with Damnation. The obvious issue is the prohibitive mana cost. I think Twilight Mire is necessary if you are running this.
Troll Ascetic - Blanks targeted removal and can survive Supreme Verdict. Same prohibitive mana cost as Finks.
Delver of Secrets - I think a Sultai Delver list could work, but it would look very different to this deck.
Vendilion Clique - Already played in many SB. I'm not really keen on running in maindeck with so many Lingering Souls and Lightning Bolt floating around, but if left unanswered will end the game quickly.
As much as I worry about anti-GY strategies, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the raw power of this deck's core creatures in order to protect yourself from it.
I think Ashiok serves the role of alternative win-con fairly well, but I wish we had something that fought a larger portion of the meta.
Some other thoughts:
- Thrun, the Last Troll is a fine sideboard card, but I'm not completely sure I'm sold on it as a maindeck threat.
- I think Go for the Throat is a great way to answer things like Siege Rhino, Tasigur, Sower of Temptation, Restoration Angel, etc. I currently run both it and Dismember as one-ofs.
- Grave Titan is a BEATING. I play 1 SB and have been loving it.
What are people's thoughts on Murmurs from Beyond over Compulsive Research? It's instant speed, will always net you 2 cards, and fuels Delve. I find when -2'ing Jace I am almost always choosing the 2 card pile largely to ensure I am gaining card advantage over an opponent with whom I am hopefully mostly trading 1-for-1s
I'm thinking this deck is in a decent position right now. It has a lot of game against Twin and Junk, which I think will be one of the two more popular choices at the upcoming GP in Charlotte. One card in particular I am worried about is Collected Company. It's a very scary card if it's resolved against us, even if it just for value. I am currently packing a pretty heavy removal suite with 2 Damnation, but I know this is the one card I am going to have to always have on my radar.
Legacy
GWREnchantressGWR
WXWStaxWXW
GXWMaverickGXW
Honestly damnation and ashiok have consistently felt like the 2 most extraneous cards although both are occasionally instrumental. Thrun I haven't seen that much but he usually stalls the board excellently. Titan otoh is **** diesel I've only lost one game where I resolved him, which happens pretty often.
Murmurs I haven't tried although it looks bad letting your opponent decide. Research however is amazing. It's the closest thing BUG has to brainstorm that I've seen, and that's legal. It's this decks revelation, better more often than not especially with SCM. I'm honestly considering running 2 although I suspect that would get clunky.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
IMO:
You don't need a Goyf/Tasigur/Angler type of card if you have a few creature slots open. Scavenging Ooze can fill some of Finks' role with lifegain, while also being good at fighting opposing GY strategies. It addresses some weaknesses in many of the builds we are seeing today that don't run it.
Compulsive Research in the Fabiano build is better as he built it with a good quantity of land to pitch to the discard clause. I'm running 2 Research as they are good in both the attrition and control matchups.
If you are worried about Collected Company, find room in the main or side for Stubborn Denial - the deck is running 8 Ferocious enablers; by dealing with their namesake card, you rob them of a lot of their explosiveness. Scavenging Ooze also really good at fighting their persist creatures.
since we're on the subject of a Delver version (which probably should have it's own thread, but the idea came up here):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Compulsive Research
3 Deprive
3 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Serum Visions
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Disfigure
2 Feed the Clan
2 Rain of Tears
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spellskite
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
Given the build and the reliance on having Instants or Sorceries to flip Delver, the 2 Spellskites may be traded for meta-dependent spells.
Sudden Death seems like a great card against Twin (although I am seeing people board out the combo more and more for post-board games)
Golgari Charm is an upgrade in a lot of our matchups and would never leave home without at least 2 in the 75. It is: a low level sweeper against decks like Affinity, Infect, and Bogles; also functions as a way to save your dudes from Abrupt Decay and Oblivion Stone; finally, it battles against Blood Moons and other enchantments.
I am starting to like Rain of Tears more and more - while it lacks the 2/2 body that Fulminator Mage does, it flips Delver and is recurrable with Snapcaster.
Feed the Clan is obviously great vs. Burn as it becomes a virtual Time Walk - it's also decent against swarmy aggro decks and buys us a precious turn or two to stabilize and draw a sweeper.
Board wipes are nice, and I have been fond of Drown in Sorrow recently.
Sales Thread
I agree with the above. A late scooze is fantastic and can quickly outgrow most opposition. Tasigur can come down early if needed but otherwise I find he's better late also when he becomes a card advantage engine.
Have you found 2 research to be too many at times? I've always been happy to see the singleton but I wonder about running 2. Considering trying it in place of a cantrip.
Good point with the Tasigur activation - I forgot to mention that. Scooze also pairs well with Tasigur's ability, allowing you eat the "dead" cards you don't want the opponent to give back to you before you activate the Bananaman. Depending on the state of the game, this could be another copy of Tasigur, Thoughtseize or Inquisition, etc. Or if you've got that ONE card you REALLY need, Scooze can eat around it.
Yes, I have found 2 Research to be too many - not sure what to cut it for though.
Sales Thread
Thinking aloud here, but that last slot could really use something with the versatility level of a Kolaghan's Command. Plays great with Snapcaster and most of its modes are super relevant. Things we have available in those colors that posses a similar level of flexibility: Sultai Charm (mana inefficient), Simic Charm (low impact), Golgari Charm (might actually be pretty good):
G. charm functions as a:
Sweeper vs. Lingering Souls or Empty the Warrens tokens, as well as Bl/Inkmoth Nexus and mana dorks.
Blows up Blood Moon, Bitterblossom, Splinter Twin, Eidolon of the Great Revel
Surprise regenerate against most black based removal, Supreme Verdict, combat damage, direct damage, Abupt Decay, Oblivion Stone, etc.
Sales Thread
Playing blue helps against combo decks like Bloom, Ad Nauseam, Storm and the like. You have counterspells and ways to dig for SB cards. The latter helps in all matchups, not only against combo of course.
The bad matchups for fair decks in Modern are basically all the same, so for this one isn't different. Burn, Infect, Affinity, Tron, Bogles, all that crazy linear non-interactive stuff that grows rampant in the format should give you trouble. Not really different from Junk/Jund, except maybe for Infect (which these decks can handle). The deck has no Bolt and sweepers for Infect and Affinity nor the awesome white SB cards like Stony Silence or the white staples like Path to Exile (overplayed in the format 'cause people ignore the downsides, but still very powerful) and Lingering Souls.
Everything that plays fair is a solid matchup. As in any matchup between fair decks, it mostly comes down to skill.
I'm currently 2-0 against Twin, 1-0 against Grixis Delver, 1-1 against Burn, 0-1 against Goryo, 0-1 against Vengevine (all in matches).
You do get access to Serum Vision, Mana Leak, Compulsive Research. Jace AoT, Vendilion Clique, Negate, Sower of Temptation, Spellskite is now better vs Burn (you actually have blue mana to use it) etc.
Honestly, I think it's not as good as Jund/Junk simply because in Modern blue is a support color for combo and tempo decks and doesn't do a lot more than that, so red and white have better tools for fair decks. That said, the deck is solid and I enjoy playing blue cards, so I like it.
Cards that are over performing in my testing are: Creeping Tar Pit (you have a lot of creatures they need to remove, so this guy often does work), Night of Souls' Betrayal, Spell Snare, Jace AoT, Damnation and Thragtusk.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacomb
3 Darkslick Shore
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Forest
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Vision
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Dismember
3 Deprive
3 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Golgari Charm
2 Feed the Clan
1 Spellskite
3 Death's Shadow
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Flashfreeze
1 Deglamer
1 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Drown in Sorrow
In the end, having access to targeted discard remains one of the best things we can do when playing black, so I decided to play some Inquisitions. It also fuels your graveyard for Tasigur or Angler.
Depending on how my local meta settles, I may be more willing to run Darkblast main - I believe this card is particularly strong vs Delver decks (RUG/Grixis) and Affinity, but also has some fringe benefits when matching up against Collected Company decks (hits their mana dorks). It has great synergy when trying to pump out some delve fatties and helps break up Tarmogoyf/Tasigur/Rhino or Angler/Angler stalemates. Not sure what I would cut but I would start with the singleton Golgari Charm and move towards Slaughter Pact and Dismember if I need a third.
In the end, this build is probably not optimal - it's a hybrid between RUG/Grixis Delver tempo decks and GBx attrition so it suffers from a lack of focus. It's not running the 1-mana cantrips that power Delver decks and am essentially giving up Gitaxian Probe for Inquisition of Kozilek and Thought Scour for Spell Snare. This basically gives me pretty good percentages to have an answer problematic 2-drops in my opening 7 (Tarmogoyf, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, Voice of Resurgence, etc.) and along with Deprive, can help prevent Liliana of the Veil from hitting the board.
Not sure if I like it as it is, but if anyone wants to collaborate with me on this project I'd be glad for the help.
Sales Thread
Hey man I like your tempo variation of this list. I tried to make BUG delver work at the formats inception but never got very far and lost interest, however that was before so many good delve cards. Just like legacy this version will always compete with canadian thresh/RUG delver which is inherently more efficient. Unfortunately we don't have hymns, and tombstalker I'm not sure is quite the same bomb here (or is he?). Anyway the real incentive to go black is as you say discards and of course hard removal but there are a few other options I'd like to suggest.
For starters consider lowering the tasigur count by 1. In his place I would play 1-2 bobs, preferably 2 by cutting something. Bob is a guaranteed to cast at 2cc vs tasigur (or multiple tas) and really pressures your opponent to answer immediately or lose plus he feeds the yard by virtue of CA. Hes essentially perceived as the same threat level as goyf by opponents, or should be. This change would also allow you to consider switching out 1 pact for a murderous cut. 2 pacts seems like too much but I might be mistaken since I haven't used pact much outside of ANT. Either way on pact but bobs I would seriously consider. Otoh it would mean stubborn denial loses some value vs. say spell pierce so thats something to also consider. I personally think the trade offs would be worth it since PtE/bolt on delver is gonna happen pretty often even with denials in hand.
Ok heres a couple ideas that could be worth considering here maybe even more so than RUG which I take a page from their book. First I feel like 3 deprive is too many. 1, maaybe 2 but full 3 especially when combined with double pacts seems like too much tempo loss and clunky together. I want to like deprive but I always hated drawing it. Its a far cry from a poor mans daze sadly. Otoh disrupting shoal would increase your answers to problematic 2 drops similar/in conjunction to snares but without being quite so narrow and would also hard counter paths/bolts. Going off FoW math you would need around 20 blue cards to support it. If you shift a couple or even all deprives and/or another counter (snare/denial) to the side or just replace them with shoals you'd have 19 count. This leads into my next suggestion:
Either way have you considered dimir charm? Higher cost but much more versatile than scours and has great synergy with a set of shoals. It makes countering 2 drops 'for free' much more viable, increases both your removal and permission density and pretty much guarantees you'll flip delver while allowing you to dig for answers EoT. No cantrip hurts but the value in a tempo shell is higher than elsewhere and at worst it pitches to shoal. Fate seal is also a powerful way to close out a game as well when all you need is that one more turn or their digging for bolt. Anyway I think its potentially on par with discards for reasons to go black over RUG.
Lastly how has 20 lands been treating you? I know most TA shells run 20 but thats with 4 wastelands and similar curve with a couple 3 drops. I ask because I feel like theres room to include at least 1 tec edge to keep your soft permission active longer. Also on that note I've been running 3 darkslick shores as well (non tempo plan) and it really feels like I should go 4 or go down to 1 for more check lands. Just some thoughts.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
On the midrange topic I really feel like ooze's and finks are some of the best creatures green has right now. Finks in particular are incredibly annoying. They are great at anti LotV duty and protecting your own PWs. Plus you can use them with discards/counter setup to bait out PtE and make it look pretty bad when you respond with an early fatty.
I have done many tests against Affinity, and I have to agree that this match up is very tough.
Here is my SB plan
SB in:
1 Spellskite
1 Nature's Claim
3 Disfigure
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Damnation
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Creeping Corrosion (This is the new SB card I choose to play against Affinity)
SB out:
2 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
1 Thoughtseize
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Compulsive Research
Even using the SB, It is not 50:50 match up if Affinity starts the game first.
If anyone has a better SB idea without changing the 15 SB cards much, please let me know.
------------------------------------------------
Regarding the match up against Burn, it is relatively easier for Sultai-Control.
SB in:
2 Feed the Clan
1 Spellskite
1 Nature's Claim
3 Disfigure
SB out:
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Damnation
1 Thoughtseize
1 Compulsive Research
The key card to play against Burn is Feed the Clan.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Thanks for the input. There are definitely some good takeaways, but one of the good things about running true mix of Goyf and Tasigur/Angler is that most of my big guys pass the Bolt test. Cutting Tasigurs for Bob not only weakens my threat mix against Bolt, but also Abrupt Decay. I am pretty light on threats as-is, and need what I resolve to stick around and do some damage.
Going off the RUG build which I've been following as well - the pilot that won the SCG event is a frequent poster here. He runs Curiosity and a bunch of cantrips to keep the cards flowing. The way this deck is built so far, it does not have a card advantage engine at that level.
What I like about Slaughter Pact is that against Twin, it is essentially a Force of Will that does not cost you an extra card and actually 2 for 1s the opponent. With it, you can engage in a counter war with them over Splinter Twin and still win by playing Pact.
About the lands - I am casually familiar with Legacy and know a few general decks and game plans. I would assume that the deck we are approximating this list to runs Brainstorms - that card pulls so much weight in the format and does its job so well, I don't think there is a good comparison here with Serum Visions. I guess there must be a lot of similarities to Team America the way this deck is built, but those similarities are not intentional - these are the cards I've selected to attack the format.
I played Tombstalker for a while and didn't like it. The BB is hard to generate, especially when you want access to UU (Deprive) and 1G (Goyf) and BG (Decay) on Turn 2.
I don't mean to slam your ideas as there's a lot of good stuff here - I particularly like the idea of running soft permission and mana denial with Tec Edge. Mana Leak is not only easier to cast, it also synergies well with discard. With previous midrangy builds of this deck, I ran a full 4 Mana Leak with 3 Snares, 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Inquisition. This enabled really messed up starting lines of play where you could T1 discard, T2 Spell Snare, T3 Mana Leak, or T1 discard, T2 discard with Spell Snare up, T3 Serum Vision with Mana Leak up and set up the rest of your game... then drop a Goyf with a bunch of stuff in the bin and bash until the opponent top decks an answer.
Sales Thread