What do you guys think of the new enemy fastlands that are coming out in Kaladesh ?? do you think we coulduse one or two of those ??
We are a gw deck splashing black so I'm not sure we want the new ones since we already have razorverge thicket
What do you guys think of the new enemy fastlands that are coming out in Kaladesh ?? do you think we coulduse one or two of those ??
We are a gw deck splashing black so I'm not sure we want the new ones since we already have razorverge thicket
This deck isn't really hindered by the mana base like traditional midrange Abzan is. First, the number of mana dorks we generally have fixes any and all issues as far as that's concerned. Second, we're not trying to fire off some random 1-CMC black spell (Thoughtseize) or possibly a 1-CMC white spell (Path to Exile) OR a 1-CMC green spell (Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch). Our choices usually boil down to which green source am I going to use to case this Bird or Noble Hierarch on turn 1. With either of those in play, almost all of our plays are turned on by turn 2. Now, let's say you were trying to come up with a deck that's less reliant on said mana dorks.... I could see wanting to play a couple of the new fast lands, but I still think our mana base is solid as-is. In any case, you can always validate (or invalidate) new ideas via testing. That's what makes Magic interesting. Finding small advantages here and there or even just finding things that fit your play style more appropriately.
No, I'm not. Painful Truths would be better in every scenario I can think of that matters. If I'm in top-deck mode, I don't want a land if it can't kill my opponent. Top-decking a Horizon Canopy is only slightly more decent in that scenario because it gives me another bite at the apple. Great, but how is that possibly any better than top-decking Painful Truths? Not to mention, we're playing an aggro deck. Hence, "running out of gas" is always a concern, and you're never going to get rid of it unless you become more of a midrange deck. Not to mention having to balance issues with opening hands that have Horizon Canopy as a necessary land to make the hand work is really bad and will cause you to lose percentage points against burn and zoo decks. Now if you're playing a more midrange variant, knock yourself out. The flexibility is decent there. I would still argue that I'd rather have Painful Truths every day of the week.
How about putting tireless tracker to improve draw? or Courser of kruphix? Knight of the reliquary into horizon canopy is also an option for card advantage.
the problem with lead the stampede and painful truth is that they do not advance your board. I think creatures like tireless tracker and courser of kruphix may help.
You can't compare canopy and painfull truths because canopy is a land and painful truth a sb card.
you have to compare canopy to another land like razorverge .
Exactly - it's not like you're forced to cut a nonland card to run Canopy. Let's be realistic here.
You can't compare canopy and painfull truths because canopy is a land and painful truth a sb card.
you have to compare canopy to another land like razorverge .
You can't compare canopy and painfull truths because canopy is a land and painful truth a sb card.
you have to compare canopy to another land like razorverge .
Exactly - it's not like you're forced to cut a nonland card to run Canopy. Let's be realistic here.
I guess I should've started with this then: What land would you cut? The obvious choice to me seems to be Razorverge Thicket, which seems bad. You could cut Gavony Township or Vault of the Archangel if you're running it, but I'm not sure I would cut a fast land or a fetch-able G/W source. That leads to cutting a fetch land, which also seems not good. So what would you cut to play 1 or more Horizon Canopy?
If you're looking card advantage and more gas, why dont you use Lead the Stampede instead of painfull truths?
Because sometimes what I'm looking for doesn't have legs. I may be digging for removal or a sideboard spell, such as Rest in Peace or Zealous Persecution. In certain match-ups those spells are just as game-breaking for our opponents as some of our threats.
I guess I should've started with this then: What land would you cut? The obvious choice to me seems to be Razorverge Thicket, which seems bad.
...because?
Because not potentially shocking or bolting yourself in the early turns to play mana dorks is good. Otherwise, why bother playing Razorverge Thicket at all? You may as well play anything in that slot utility-wise. Again, what would you cut?
I'm getting an overall sense that people are discounting the idea of having to use Horizon Canopy as a mana source or that it comes up so rarely that it would matter. In the first case, if I have to use it in my opener, once and only once as a source, then that's fine. You'll be net positive. Otherwise, you might as well have brought in another shock land. At least you can fetch that up as necessary. In the second case, if all you're doing with it is dropping it as a land and cycling it (rarely if ever using it as a mana source), you may as well be playing a spell. I know it can't get countered, but who cares? Short of Loxodon Smiter, anything we play can get countered, which is why I feel Painful Truths is just better. The only time it kinda serves a decent purpose is when you more than likely have too much land early in the game. I mean this is just based on my experience playing it in a midrange deck. Maybe I'm missing something about how it plays in this deck, but ultimately I'm trying to play as few lands and mana dorks in this deck as possible while still getting decent opening hands. I want a hand that has 2 lands, a mana dork, and 4 "action" spells.
On another note, has anyone tried Thalia, Heretic Cathar? I've had some very interesting and positive results. I just don't know if it's just me, the people/decks I'm playing against or if this is genuinely decent.
If you're looking card advantage and more gas, why dont you use Lead the Stampede instead of painfull truths?
Because sometimes what I'm looking for doesn't have legs. I may be digging for removal or a sideboard spell, such as Rest in Peace or Zealous Persecution. In certain match-ups those spells are just as game-breaking for our opponents as some of our threats.
I guess I should've started with this then: What land would you cut? The obvious choice to me seems to be Razorverge Thicket, which seems bad.
...because?
Because not potentially shocking or bolting yourself in the early turns to play mana dorks is good. Otherwise, why bother playing Razorverge Thicket at all? You may as well play anything in that slot utility-wise.
We're an aggro deck. Potentially shocking myself to play dorks which I can then use to cast the rest of my stuff is fine if it helps me deal with the topdecking issue. We're not in it for the long game. We play Thicket because it does everything we need it to do. Canopy does the same and more.
If you're looking card advantage and more gas, why dont you use Lead the Stampede instead of painfull truths?
Because sometimes what I'm looking for doesn't have legs. I may be digging for removal or a sideboard spell, such as Rest in Peace or Zealous Persecution. In certain match-ups those spells are just as game-breaking for our opponents as some of our threats.
I guess I should've started with this then: What land would you cut? The obvious choice to me seems to be Razorverge Thicket, which seems bad.
...because?
Because not potentially shocking or bolting yourself in the early turns to play mana dorks is good. Otherwise, why bother playing Razorverge Thicket at all? You may as well play anything in that slot utility-wise.
We're an aggro deck. Potentially shocking myself to play dorks which I can then use to cast the rest of my stuff is fine if it helps me deal with the topdecking issue. We're not in it for the long game. We play Thicket because it does everything we need it to do. Canopy does the same and more.
So, 'again', I would cut Thicket.
Not caring about your life total doesn't work very well against Burn, Zoo or any other aggro deck, and they're not playing for a long game either.
If you're looking card advantage and more gas, why dont you use Lead the Stampede instead of painfull truths?
Because sometimes what I'm looking for doesn't have legs. I may be digging for removal or a sideboard spell, such as Rest in Peace or Zealous Persecution. In certain match-ups those spells are just as game-breaking for our opponents as some of our threats.
I guess I should've started with this then: What land would you cut? The obvious choice to me seems to be Razorverge Thicket, which seems bad.
...because?
Because not potentially shocking or bolting yourself in the early turns to play mana dorks is good. Otherwise, why bother playing Razorverge Thicket at all? You may as well play anything in that slot utility-wise.
We're an aggro deck. Potentially shocking myself to play dorks which I can then use to cast the rest of my stuff is fine if it helps me deal with the topdecking issue. We're not in it for the long game. We play Thicket because it does everything we need it to do. Canopy does the same and more.
So, 'again', I would cut Thicket.
Not caring about your life total doesn't work very well against Burn, Zoo or any other aggro deck, and they're not playing for a long game either.
We have Finks + Rhino to deal with that - board in Feed the Clan if you're still worried.
Hey guys, I need some serious advice. I'm thinking of cutting Lingering Souls but I want to know how people actually play this card... Everyone either complains about it being very annoying to play against or boast how it won them a few games. As for me, it's been mediocre at best (it comes out and simply trades with a creature or buys me 2 turns to draw something good) so I'm thinking of replacing it with removals or more creatures.
My deck is posted here and my meta overrun with Naya burn, Jund, and Merfolk with 1 or 2 Infect, Jeskai, and random homebrews every tournament. Naya burn and merfolk wreck me every time unless I draw my sideboard.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
If you're looking card advantage and more gas, why dont you use Lead the Stampede instead of painfull truths?
Because sometimes what I'm looking for doesn't have legs. I may be digging for removal or a sideboard spell, such as Rest in Peace or Zealous Persecution. In certain match-ups those spells are just as game-breaking for our opponents as some of our threats.
Because not potentially shocking or bolting yourself in the early turns to play mana dorks is good. Otherwise, why bother playing Razorverge Thicket at all? You may as well play anything in that slot utility-wise.
We're an aggro deck. Potentially shocking myself to play dorks which I can then use to cast the rest of my stuff is fine if it helps me deal with the topdecking issue. We're not in it for the long game. We play Thicket because it does everything we need it to do. Canopy does the same and more.
So, 'again', I would cut Thicket.
Not caring about your life total doesn't work very well against Burn, Zoo or any other aggro deck, and they're not playing for a long game either.
We have Finks + Rhino to deal with that - board in Feed the Clan if you're still worried.
Yea, if you draw enough of the right side of your deck. There's no way I would ever play Feed the Clan. The card is straight garbage. Bottom line: adding cards like Horizon Canopy in place of Razorverge Thicket will cost you percentage points against those decks in a large tourney. Like I said, if you just want to run 1 for craps and giggles, fine, but I don't believe for a second it's actually worth including over other cards we're running now.
Hey guys, I need some serious advice. I'm thinking of cutting Lingering Souls but I want to know how people actually play this card... Everyone either complains about it being very annoying to play against or boast how it won them a few games. As for me, it's been mediocre at best (it comes out and simply trades with a creature or buys me 2 turns to draw something good) so I'm thinking of replacing it with removals or more creatures.
My deck is posted here and my meta overrun with Naya burn, Jund, and Merfolk with 1 or 2 Infect, Jeskai, and random homebrews every tournament. Naya burn and merfolk wreck me every time unless I draw my sideboard.
Lingering Souls is great against Jund, Jeskai and Infect. Naya Burn is pretty much a 50/50 match. Sometimes you need to mulligan aggressively for certain cards. It also depends on your build as well. Merfolk is just hard. It's the reason I have 2 Engineered Explosives in my sideboard now that tokens doesn't seem to be a thing. You really need an explosive start against Merfolk to have a solid chance to win. Any slow or durdle-y hands should be tossed. If you're losing to random homebrews, I don't really know what to say.
Yes, Feed the Clans is bad in a vacuum. That's never how we discuss cards though. It's for burn, specifically them. And it's really, really, really good against them. Explain why it's garbage against burn, please.
Yes, Feed the Clans is bad in a vacuum. That's never how we discuss cards though. It's for burn, specifically them. And it's really, really, really good against them. Explain why it's garbage against burn, please.
You want to troll like this when the best example is the video that you posted last time around? Seriously?
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We are a gw deck splashing black so I'm not sure we want the new ones since we already have razorverge thicket
This deck isn't really hindered by the mana base like traditional midrange Abzan is. First, the number of mana dorks we generally have fixes any and all issues as far as that's concerned. Second, we're not trying to fire off some random 1-CMC black spell (Thoughtseize) or possibly a 1-CMC white spell (Path to Exile) OR a 1-CMC green spell (Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch). Our choices usually boil down to which green source am I going to use to case this Bird or Noble Hierarch on turn 1. With either of those in play, almost all of our plays are turned on by turn 2. Now, let's say you were trying to come up with a deck that's less reliant on said mana dorks.... I could see wanting to play a couple of the new fast lands, but I still think our mana base is solid as-is. In any case, you can always validate (or invalidate) new ideas via testing. That's what makes Magic interesting. Finding small advantages here and there or even just finding things that fit your play style more appropriately.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Exactly - it's not like you're forced to cut a nonland card to run Canopy. Let's be realistic here.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I guess I should've started with this then: What land would you cut? The obvious choice to me seems to be Razorverge Thicket, which seems bad. You could cut Gavony Township or Vault of the Archangel if you're running it, but I'm not sure I would cut a fast land or a fetch-able G/W source. That leads to cutting a fetch land, which also seems not good. So what would you cut to play 1 or more Horizon Canopy?
...because?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Because sometimes what I'm looking for doesn't have legs. I may be digging for removal or a sideboard spell, such as Rest in Peace or Zealous Persecution. In certain match-ups those spells are just as game-breaking for our opponents as some of our threats.
Because not potentially shocking or bolting yourself in the early turns to play mana dorks is good. Otherwise, why bother playing Razorverge Thicket at all? You may as well play anything in that slot utility-wise. Again, what would you cut?
I'm getting an overall sense that people are discounting the idea of having to use Horizon Canopy as a mana source or that it comes up so rarely that it would matter. In the first case, if I have to use it in my opener, once and only once as a source, then that's fine. You'll be net positive. Otherwise, you might as well have brought in another shock land. At least you can fetch that up as necessary. In the second case, if all you're doing with it is dropping it as a land and cycling it (rarely if ever using it as a mana source), you may as well be playing a spell. I know it can't get countered, but who cares? Short of Loxodon Smiter, anything we play can get countered, which is why I feel Painful Truths is just better. The only time it kinda serves a decent purpose is when you more than likely have too much land early in the game. I mean this is just based on my experience playing it in a midrange deck. Maybe I'm missing something about how it plays in this deck, but ultimately I'm trying to play as few lands and mana dorks in this deck as possible while still getting decent opening hands. I want a hand that has 2 lands, a mana dork, and 4 "action" spells.
On another note, has anyone tried Thalia, Heretic Cathar? I've had some very interesting and positive results. I just don't know if it's just me, the people/decks I'm playing against or if this is genuinely decent.
We're an aggro deck. Potentially shocking myself to play dorks which I can then use to cast the rest of my stuff is fine if it helps me deal with the topdecking issue. We're not in it for the long game. We play Thicket because it does everything we need it to do. Canopy does the same and more.
So, 'again', I would cut Thicket.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Not caring about your life total doesn't work very well against Burn, Zoo or any other aggro deck, and they're not playing for a long game either.
We have Finks + Rhino to deal with that - board in Feed the Clan if you're still worried.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
My deck is posted here and my meta overrun with Naya burn, Jund, and Merfolk with 1 or 2 Infect, Jeskai, and random homebrews every tournament. Naya burn and merfolk wreck me every time unless I draw my sideboard.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
Yea, if you draw enough of the right side of your deck. There's no way I would ever play Feed the Clan. The card is straight garbage. Bottom line: adding cards like Horizon Canopy in place of Razorverge Thicket will cost you percentage points against those decks in a large tourney. Like I said, if you just want to run 1 for craps and giggles, fine, but I don't believe for a second it's actually worth including over other cards we're running now.
Lingering Souls is great against Jund, Jeskai and Infect. Naya Burn is pretty much a 50/50 match. Sometimes you need to mulligan aggressively for certain cards. It also depends on your build as well. Merfolk is just hard. It's the reason I have 2 Engineered Explosives in my sideboard now that tokens doesn't seem to be a thing. You really need an explosive start against Merfolk to have a solid chance to win. Any slow or durdle-y hands should be tossed. If you're losing to random homebrews, I don't really know what to say.
Yes, Feed the Clans is bad in a vacuum. That's never how we discuss cards though. It's for burn, specifically them. And it's really, really, really good against them. Explain why it's garbage against burn, please.
You want to troll like this when the best example is the video that you posted last time around? Seriously?