Was thinking about other colors of Martyr of Wishes and founded one funny card: Trace of Abundance
This cards perfectly defends or 3+ color manabase from LD and Blood moons and gelp to cast our 4drops on turn 3. ( Wanna Wrath of God on turn 3? )
Upgraded my Bant Version to this:
With 22 lands deck got better topdecks and we also get more spped to cast our big drops and utilise Wishes faster with high cost cards from wishboard.
Also theese auras protects us from Blood moons and land destroy perfectly (especially they protect our Emerias and Mistveils) but lost 2 Ghost Quarter and My own LD plan. Not sure what is better.
The same time builded Naya version with landhate in main (Blood Moons) and fast clock and removal - Nahiri.
Hello Lear, it's good to see the effort that you are putting in these out the box MartyrProc lists. I don't have all the cards for the three color manabase, but I'm planning to slowly get the land cards.
So, my comments here was only theoretically based.
Trace of Abundance seems good, the shroud it's appealing enough. I'm gonna buy it and test on a GW version (with Renegade, Sun Titan and LD, without Wish and the 3rd color). But with Trace of Abundance and only 22 lands, I would drop a Emeria and/or a Mistveil Plains. You have six enters the battlefield tapped lands, Gavony Township and only 22 lands. I see that you are leaning on Karametra, God of Harvests, but it's rough.
And zero Ghost Quarters, Tectonic Edge. How it's the match against Eldrazi Tron?
And old Gx Tron seems almost 0% win. I know even with GQ, TE the win percentage it's very low, but without these lands it's even lower.
With my deck (MonoW or BW Martyr) I didn't leave home without at least three GQ. Always has a Tron and/or a Valakut deck, and sometimes you could steal a game or a match. My today's plan is to add green and have access to Renegade Ralier mainly for GQ and TE.
About the Bant Wish deck:
For sure, I would drop Safewright Quest and move one Trace of Abundance for the wish target. We never keep a hand with only one land, and Trace of Abundance helps when we need lands the same that Safewright Quest do, but Trace of Abundance opens the room for acceleration. T2 Wish for Trace, T3 do the land drop and cast Trace of Abundance... Safewright Quest does not allow that.
Kami of False Hope is on the list because of the lack of Ghostly Prison, right? I know that our lists are quite different, but Kami seems week. My list has 4x Wrath and 3x Gideon of the Trials and yours only 2x Wrath + G. Wish. When was the last time that you do the Kami lock?
Thrun, the Last Troll + Sphinx of the Final Word: Is control really that bad match?
What happened to Fracturing Gust/Qasali Pridemage/Sundering Growth or even Detention Sphere? No love to beat Ensnaring Bridge
About the Naya Version
Loved the list! B. Moon helps so much against Tron, Grixis DS and Valakut.
Trace of Abundance looks better here, T3 Nahiri: I'm in.
But I really dislike the Karametra, God of Harvests here. The plan is to end the game quicker with Nahiri and Karametra doesn't work according the plan.
For long grind and wide games, cards like Cast Out, O. Ring looks more interesting: it's a good way to deal with opposing Planeswalkers, Bobs, artifacts and etc. Even the 4th Ranger seems better, because it helps to protect Nahiri. What is you thought about Karametra? Is it only the B plan?
I prefer the Naya list even if Naya can't beat Storm and Bant can do it. I'm curious, how is the Storm matchup?
And most important question is: When we will see a streaming with these two lists?
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Current playing:
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
I'm really committed with increasing the win percentage against Valakut and Tron. My deck completely folds to Storm, but here on my LGS no one plays it.
The matchs:
8-Rack (Win 2-1)
Through the Breach Titan (Draw 1-1)
Soul Sisters (Win 1-0)
Bant Eldrazi (Win 2-1)
Tron (Win 2-1)
8-Rack (monoblack version)
G1: I've draw the 3x Proc with only one CMC card (a Martyr). Wrench Mind plus Liliana of the Veil, I couldn't come back before Shrieking Affliction kills me.
G2: Kept a very good hand with Hawk, Martyr, 2x Ranger and 3x Lands. I'm late finding the 4th land, and he had a Lili. But Oblivion Ring saves me from the ultimate. Gideon of the Trials gives me a emblem and when Gideon Jura came into play he concedes.
G3: I'm facing 2x The Rack, but he does a misplay that cost him the game. I had four lands (one was Mistveil Plains), Martyr+O.Ring in play, Martyr + 3x Hawk in the grave and Proc+Hawk in hand. I pass the turn without cast any spell and with the all the lands untapped. He topdecked Inquisition of Kozilek and chooses discard Proc instead of Hawk. EOT Mistveil + Mistveil on my turn and the Hawk finds me two cards that blanks The Rack and gives me time to find Gideon of the Trials and Ranger of Eos. Close one. Sideboard plan: -4 Wrath, -1 GP, +1 Hex Parasite, +2 Nevermore, +2 Celestial Purge
Through the Breach Titan
G1: I'm on the play and have a T3 active Serra. But he has six lands (and didn't played the land of the turn), casts Titan searching for 2x Valakut, hold the priority and plays a mountain (six damage on Serra and six on me). I had Path, Ghost Quarter and could not do anything. Next turn Summoner's Pact seals the game.
G2: Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction the Valakut. His hand was 2x Titan + Through the Breach, he had only one Emrakul, 3x Obstinate Baloth and 2x Titan for additional creatures in the deck. With he playing fair, my job was to keep he off the 5th land and Tectonic Edge helps a lot. The games extends a lot, he casts chalice for one and for two. Oblivion Ring takes care of Chalice for one. I found Ranger and made a active Serra before he finds the 5th land. But 2x Path to Exile ends the game.
G3: We had only 2 minutes and he couldn't kill when the turns were called (and he would not will kill, because I had Aven Mindcensor in hand). Sideboard plan: -4 Wrath, -1 GP, -3 Proc, -1 Gideon Jura, +3 Aven Mindcensor, +4 Surgical Extraction, +2 Nevermore
Soul Sisters
G1: He starts with Serra Ascendant and I do the same. Them, he thought that I am playing Soul Sisters too and extends the battlefield with creatures (2x Sister, 10/10 Ajani, 3x Spectral tokens, Ranger). This was one of the most happier Wrath of God that I've cast. Ranger of Eos seals the deal.
G2: He kept a very good hand, T1 Serra, T2 Martyr revealing Hawk, 2x Serra and Ranger. I'm in trouble. My hand has Wrath and Martyr, but only 3x lands, if I lose a untapped land on T4 I'm dead. T3 he plays the 2x Serras and I'm at 8 life. Next turn I play Martyr, gain 18 and pray to find the 4th land. I draw it and cast Wrath. But he had Hawk and, next turn, Spectral Procession. I go to 7 life and draw the 2nd Wrath. He was playing cautiously, his board was Hawk and the tokens. I'm at 3 life. When I cast the 2nd Wrath, next turn he casts Sister+2x Hawks. My Martyr plus Hawk gives me 15 life. He draws Windbrisk Heights and I draw and cast Gideon Jura, adding +2. Next turn he casts Martyrs, attacks and reveal Archangel of Thune under Windbrisk, sac Martyr (two +1/+1 counters). I had no board, next turn I draw the 7th land, cast O.Ring on the angel. Then, MartyrProc slowly starts to move up my life. He finds Ranger (and the 4th Serra) and I'm in trouble again. My life was slowing dropping again and he finds Ajani's Pridemate. The 3rd Wrath saves me again. Then, I start to Proc and Mistveil the Wrath to the bottom of the deck. I made a misplay that nearly cost me the game: the game was under control, I've cast the 4th Wrath when his board a Ajani 10/10, 2x Sisters and 3x Tokens. He had +100 life and I'm at 38. The plan on my mind was to kill him, instead of the mill plan. This was a huge mistake, because next turn he casts a gigantic Return to the Ranks returning ALL the creatures in the grave to the battlefield, gaining 90 life with 4x Serra Ascendant, 2x 92/92 Ajani and a bunch of sisters and Martyrs. The luck was with me, and I've drawn and cast the 5th Wrath (I love Mistveil Plains). Then, I adjust the plan to mill him and kept putting Wrath on the bottom of the deck. He casted two more Return to the Ranks, but now I was prepared. The time ended and I win with 1-0. Sideboard plan: -1 Gideon of the Trials, +1 Ghostly Prison
Bant Eldrazi
G1: T2 Thought-Knot Seer (via 2x Eldrazi Temple), T3 Reality Smasher, T4 Nissa, Steward of Elements. I've casted Gideon of the Trials, but the 2x Reality Smasher kills him. Two Gideon Jura gives me two more turns, my I didn't found Wrath of God.
G2: I had a good control hand: Martyr, Hawk, Path, O.Ring and Lands. He had a T2 RIP but no action. I've drawn 2x useless Proc and Gideon of the Trials was blanking TKS. Tectonic Edge kept him off the 5th land. When I cast Ranger and made two active Serra he concedes showing a hand with 2x Reality Smasher and 2x Drowner of Hope.
G3: He had T3 TKS (takes Wrath) and T4 TKS (takes Ranger). Ghostly Prison disturbs his game. He casts Nissa, Steward of Elements. Path to Exile from top kills one TKS and I'm obliged to cast 2x Hawk to keeps Nissa low on counters. Gideon of the Trials stops the other TKS, but I can't kill Nissa. His hand has 3x cards, and I'm not attacking with GOT (maybe he had Path). He casts counterspell on my O.Ring and Gideon Jura. When I cast Ranger of Eos, he casts Reality Smasher nearing killing GOT. Active Serra took Path to Exile and he counters Wrath. But the 2nd O.Ring and 2nd Ranger saves the day. Sideboard plan: -1 Proclamation of Rebirth, +1 Ghostly Prison
Gb Tron
G1: He had natural Tron plus Expedition Map, making T3 Karn and T4 Ulamog.
G2: Now it's my time to the nut draw: T1 Serra, T2 Martyr (active Serra) and I had Ghost Quarter, Stony Silence plus Aven Mindcensor on hand. Further, my T3 draw was another Serra. He couldn't find Fatal Push.
G3: I kept a average hand with GQ, Plains, Martyr, GOT, 2x Aven Mindcensor and O.Ring. I'm facing T1 Urza's Mine + Expedition Map, T2 Urza's Power Plant passing the turn. I didn't draw the 3rd land, I attack with Martyr and pass the turn. He fetches for the Urza's Tower and I'm obliged to use my GQ. Next turn he made a misplay: He draws the 2nd Urza's Power Plant, but chooses to play the Urza's Tower to not reveal information about the assembled Tron. He casts Chromatic Sphere and Fatal Push my Martyr, I gain 18 life. My next draw was Surgical Extraction, that takes the Power Plant in the grave, in the hand and the two in the deck. His hand was Karn and 2x Sylvan Scryin (he had 3x lands in the battlefield). I missed lands for two more turns, but draw Plains and casts Hawk. When he drew the 6th land, I draw Tectonic Edge and use it. He fails to find lands in the next three turns while I found 2x more and cast Ranger of Eos, fetching 2x Ranger of Eos. When he finds the 7nd land, my battlefield had 2x Hawk and 2x active Serra (he was at 8). He shows his hand with: Ulamog, World Breaker, Karn and Ugin Sideboard plan: -1 GP, -3 Proc, -4 Wrath, -2 Path, -2 Gideon Jura, +1 Hex Parasite, +3 Aven Mindcensor, +4 Surgical Extraction, +2 Stony Silence, +2 Nevermore
I'm very happy with the results, but I know that I had really good luck against Tron and my opponents had done mistakes that cost them the match.
Overall:
- The 4x GQ and 3x Tectonic Edge was great, but I'm not playing these manabase with only 23 lands. I will drop 1x Aven Mindcensor (underperfomed), move 1x Ghostly Prison to the sideboard and add the 24 land.
- I've mulligan two or three times because not having a colored land in the starting hand.
- One game (the 2nd against Valakut) I kept a hand with 2x GQ and a Tectonic Edge (without white mana source) because I had Surgical Extraction. My 3rd draw was a plains.
- Gideon of the Trials was good, The Rack couldn't win through emblem and Gideon Jura. Against Eldrazi it's good when they does not have Reality Smasher. Isn't a dead card against Tron and Valakut as Ghostly Prison is. In my mind, he substitutes Ghostly Prison.
- Tectonic Edge was great, but I will test Field of Ruin on its place and report the results of my tests.
- The 3rd Proc bothers me, yet with only 23 lands. But it needs more testing. When Proc is good, it's a game changer.
- Gideon Jura is worse than Elspeth, Sun's Champion. But, because of Gideon of the Trials, we need to play Gideon Jura.
- Emeria was only assembled one time, against Soul Sisters. This result was expected because of my land choice. Anyway, against 8-Rack, Tron and Valakut you never assemble it. Against Eldrazi Tron I never had more than six lands. So, no conclusion about Emeria, I think it stays the same 2-off.
Any advice for me?
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Current playing:
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
my 2 losses were 2 flooding in game 3, but it happens, Gideon tribal is great, I don't miss sun titan, aven mindcensor is so so but I wanted another 3 drop play, don't miss ghostly prisons and 3 wraths is just fine.
Congratz on your wins in tourney! your deck seems nice. I agree with your point on Gideon of the Trials. I made same conclusion about it, and i like that it's a bit more proactive Prison. Is there an idea behind ORing and Banishing Light split, because imho Oring is strictly better in world of Abrupt Decay. Also i am not quite sure, but i prefer Runed Halo in place of Nevermore because it's not dead in topdeck and it deals with threats even when already casted.Nevermore is sometimes more valid tho, so i don't know. Are there some specific cards you are worried about? I'd be afraid of 7 colorless lands, as you said, mulling because of not having a color in monocolored deck seems akward and having only one source in early game can prove game changing (losing tempo). I don't think Field of Ruin will make the cut, but you are surely welcome to test it, i could be wrong. I like procing even for 3 mana, so it's usually not a problem of drawing multiple.
About Bant:
I must say i don't want to criticize only, but at least maybe we can get more creditable results that way. Anyway, Trace of Abundance. I admit i don't like it. Why? It's dead topdeck 95% of the time. In bant you are ramping exactly into... 2 Cast out or 2 Supreme verdicts, beacuse Ranger needs another turn anyway to make profit. Nevermind killed turn 2 when you cast it, which is huge deal in some matchups. You already have so many good options on turn 2 like Martyr with mana up, crack clue, play hawks, keep up path or play more 1drops. It's only ramp in the deck as 4-of so you can't really count on it either. Sometimes you just randomly shroud your land and ramp. Ramping after turn 3 seems just like pure card disadvantage without getting tempo advantage.
In Naya ramping into Nahiri seems okayish. Thing is, that martyr is not exactly build for defending planeswalker. If your goal is to wrath and slam Nahiri, you can add 4 martyrs in those Sun and moon prison decks. Suggested line T2 Wish for Trace, T3 do the land drop and cast Trace of Abundance is basically: Pay 4 mana, discard a card, skip 2 turns: you get a land that can add any mana with shroud. Awful. And i am sure, there are better options in sb than Safewright Quest.
There is a thing called Opportunity cost. When you play Blood moon you should be able to slam it T3 no matter what. To do that reliably, you would need to tweak your manabase a bit. You can't hope to support it with 3 basics of two colors. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16956&d=304905&f=MO - this is manabase that can support t3 blood moon no matter what. I understand it's overpowered card but...
I am not saying that Karametra is strictly bad, i am only saying, that you can play better card in 5drop slot, like any white planeswalker.
Don't take me wrong, i like trying new things. And i also think i provided some constructive criticism. Keep up the work
Congratz on your wins in tourney! your deck seems nice. I agree with your point on Gideon of the Trials. I made same conclusion about it, and i like that it's a bit more proactive Prison. Is there an idea behind ORing and Banishing Light split, because imho Oring is strictly better in world of Abrupt Decay. Also i am not quite sure, but i prefer Runed Halo in place of Nevermore because it's not dead in topdeck and it deals with threats even when already casted.Nevermore is sometimes more valid tho, so i don't know. Are there some specific cards you are worried about? I'd be afraid of 7 colorless lands, as you said, mulling because of not having a color in monocolored deck seems akward and having only one source in early game can prove game changing (losing tempo). I don't think Field of Ruin will make the cut, but you are surely welcome to test it, i could be wrong. I like procing even for 3 mana, so it's usually not a problem of drawing multiple.
About Bant:
I must say i don't want to criticize only, but at least maybe we can get more creditable results that way. Anyway, Trace of Abundance. I admit i don't like it. Why? It's dead topdeck 95% of the time. In bant you are ramping exactly into... 2 Cast out or 2 Supreme verdicts, beacuse Ranger needs another turn anyway to make profit. Nevermind killed turn 2 when you cast it, which is huge deal in some matchups. You already have so many good options on turn 2 like Martyr with mana up, crack clue, play hawks, keep up path or play more 1drops. It's only ramp in the deck as 4-of so you can't really count on it either. Sometimes you just randomly shroud your land and ramp. Ramping after turn 3 seems just like pure card disadvantage without getting tempo advantage.
In Naya ramping into Nahiri seems okayish. Thing is, that martyr is not exactly build for defending planeswalker. If your goal is to wrath and slam Nahiri, you can add 4 martyrs in those Sun and moon prison decks. Suggested line T2 Wish for Trace, T3 do the land drop and cast Trace of Abundance is basically: Pay 4 mana, discard a card, skip 2 turns: you get a land that can add any mana with shroud. Awful. And i am sure, there are better options in sb than Safewright Quest.
There is a thing called Opportunity cost. When you play Blood moon you should be able to slam it T3 no matter what. To do that reliably, you would need to tweak your manabase a bit. You can't hope to support it with 3 basics of two colors. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16956&d=304905&f=MO - this is manabase that can support t3 blood moon no matter what. I understand it's overpowered card but...
I am not saying that Karametra is strictly bad, i am only saying, that you can play better card in 5drop slot, like any white planeswalker.
Don't take me wrong, i like trying new things. And i also think i provided some constructive criticism. Keep up the work
The split of o ring and banish light is to get around d sphere, echoing truth, effects
went x-3 in the open, went x-2 in the classic for 22nd (highest x-2 was 12th)
It's always good see good MartyrProc results. Keep the good work
We had came to similar conclusions. Gideon tribal is great, cut the 6CMC cards and go to 23 lands.
Irrigated Farmland looks good addition and I will ask again: -Have you Cycled it in any of these games?
- About Aven Mindcensor: It underperformed on my games. Did you cast it in any game? How it was? If you just wanted another three drop, how about another Thraben Inspector?
- Field of Ruin: what are your thoughts about it? Approves or disapproves?
Losing to flood it's tough, but it's a built-in fail in the control archetype.
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Current playing:
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
Thanks Krazran, let's elevate the status of the MartyrProc on our meta
Banishing Light and Oblivion Ring: Like @soccerfanxl commented, it's because of Echoing Truth, Detention Sphere and Maelstrom Pulse.
Abrupt Decay is in the lowest use of all time, like Lightning Bolt. But even that, it's a tough decision. I'm with in the side of split the cards.
Yeah, we all are converging to the same conclusion: Gideon of the Trials belongs to MartyrProc. Good to know that you made the swap too.
The Nevermore idea I've copy from @soccerfanxl. But now even he dropped the card, I don't know what to say. Didn't cast it, but is good have a card like this against a wide field: The cards that worries me are, in the order: Grapeshot, Karn, Primeval Titan, Ugin, All is Dust, Through the Breach, Ulamog, Goryo's Vengeance, Liliana of the Veil, Scapeshift, Cryptic Command, Genesis Wave, Empty the Warrens. I think is these cards...
But I bring Nevermore only against "combo" decks (Storm, Tron, Valakut, Goryo's Vengeance), except Counters Company.
About Runed Halo I don't own it, so can't tell you if it is better than Nevermore. I was thinking on Gideon's Intervention for the occasion, but 4CMC walked me away from the card.
About the 7 colorless lands: I'm thinking about it, have to test a bit more. But the first impression is that a good risk. With the normal manabase, we don't mulligan too much and Squadron Hawk helps to recover from a mulligan. Maybe it's worth, I don't know. Against UW Control is one less Celestial Colonnade/Field of Ruin to bother you.
Most of time, I want the 2nd white only in the turn four. Gideon of the Trials costs 1WW, but sometimes we don't want cast it on T3. But we really need the second white source on T4 (Wrath of God) or play something and keep Path to Exile.
Overall I think it needs much more tests.
About Field of Ruin: It's already happening: see @soccerfanxl list and see this UW Control list from the open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116823).
Field of Ruin has many restrictions, but has two advantages that Tectonic Edge doesn't have:
1st: You don't lose a land. Your opponent doesn't too, but we need more lands than our opponents (Tron needs only the right lands most of time and against Valakut it's one less mountain to fire against you).
2nd: In my first game against Gb Tron, my opponent T1 Urza's piece + Expedition Map, T2 plays another Urza's land and passes the turn. My battlefied had: 2x Plains + Tectonic Edge. I cannot do anything, next turn he Karns me. If Tectonic Edge was Field of Ruin the Tron would not be assembled on turn three.
I like Proclamation of Rebirth a lot, but the luck to use it isn't on my side these days
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Current playing:
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
went x-3 in the open, went x-2 in the classic for 22nd (highest x-2 was 12th)
It's always good see good MartyrProc results. Keep the good work
We had came to similar conclusions. Gideon tribal is great, cut the 6CMC cards and go to 23 lands.
Irrigated Farmland looks good addition and I will ask again: -Have you Cycled it in any of these games?
- About Aven Mindcensor: It underperformed on my games. Did you cast it in any game? How it was? If you just wanted another three drop, how about another Thraben Inspector?
- Field of Ruin: what are your thoughts about it? Approves or disapproves?
Losing to flood it's tough, but it's a built-in fail in the control archetype.
I cycled it a few times and played a few times, seems worth it still, aven mindcensor did win me 1 game in tandem with wayfarer searching out ghost quarters but I like the added flyer to help close out games,field of ruin is better than Tec edge in my opinion against tron variants or against manlands it's great to not go down on lands
I'm still testing and upgrading Bant version while my timmate is testing Naya version. Will add lists below.
Theory is great too, bcs each player has diff experience and understanding of game. This will also be very helpfull.
As @Krazran mentioned, there's no much targets to ramp into and I will agree with him. So I cut this ramp spells for more disrupt spells for current tier 1 decks. In Naya version I don't wanna cut much Cycling lands bcs they're like cantrips under the moon and in match ups where Moon isn't great, works Emeria plan. Yes, a bit slow... But I think it worth it.
About Ghost quarters and same LD cards. Eldrazi Tron is creature based deck so I don't have much problems with it and Sigarda, Host of Herons is closely unkillable creature for this deck. Also she kills opponent in few turns, especially with Gavony Township. Against Oldtron we still have Glittering Wish -> Gaddock Teeg plan but on my tests it's not enough. (Casted Gaddock Teeg, Meddling mage on O-Stone. Opp looked at me and casted Ballista on 5, lul. I was so salty.) So I dropped Oldtron match up (it can't be + anyway, only in Mardu or Naya with tonns of LD versions probably) and still have options against Valakut decks.
About manabase and GQ (LD lands). I would like to add LD lands in manabase but I always have a feeling like I'm shooting in my leg destabalizing already not very stable manabase. They're great with Renegade Ralliers (Made very salty RG Titanshift players few times). But unstable manabase is pretty big problem. I think LD lands works in 1-2 color manabases but not in 3+ colors.
I dropped Trace for Bant version. About Sifewright quest - I usually search it when I want to not loose my landdrop or stabilize for third color. Bcs I can't build manabase to have on turn 3 stabily 3 colors (bcs of Emeria), I have to play Safewright quest in Sideboard. For first Time I didn't like as someone mentioned it but now I like it a lot. In mana screw games with lots of Glittering wishes in hand this card helps a lot.
Yeah, you're right. I returned him bcs of Affinity and returning of Infect decks that are annoying. I don't like much Kami now too but still need some soft lock options.
I always had problems with UW control before bcs he has tonns of LD and gravehate postside with wich pretty hard to deal with through counterspells. So I was seeking ultimative answers and added them. Also they're great against Valakut deck bcs not dying to Valakuts and removals from opponent. Theese two guys improve UWx control match ups with LD really great. And other UWx control decks without LD they just make these match ups supre easy and fast without waiting for turns.
I dropped Qasali Pridemage bcs I added 4 mainboard Bant charms and added Dromoka's command in SB instead of Qasali. Yes, Qasali has great synergies inside our decks but I tried to have maximum answers for tier 1 decks.
Bant Charm is good metage descision: Against E-tron answers to Chalices and big Creatures, against Storm kills enablers and counter Gifts, against Affinity kills everything, Grixis Shadow kills any big creature, against Titanshift not great but it's extra removal for Titan, against Breach - kills Titans and counters Breach, UWx controls decks - counters counters and opp's Sphinx's revelation, CoCoCo - counters annying CoCoCo and extra removal for turn 2 Druid, BW E&Taxes - extra answers for TKS and Tidehollow scullers, against Ad Nauseum - counters Ad Nauseum.
I feel this spell should be great in current meta and Sphinx's revelation in SB should restore our hand pretty fast after a lot of 1-1 removal-creature trades. Also added Dromoka's command bcs very often got killed by Titanshift with Omen on board. Command is much cheaper than Gust so I decided to test it.
For Bant version I decided to ignore Oldtron decks bcs they're like tier 2-3 and you can see them rarely so our main priority to have options to fight tier 1 combodecks without decreasing of efficiency of our main plan.
Yeah, in Naya version with Blood moons, Trace of Abundance is much better bcs it defends us from our own Blood moons and stabilises a lot to cast turn 3 any colored 3-4cvc spell we like.
Yeah, dropped here from list. Didn't like her either on tests.
About removal - we have in Sideboard some multicolored removal speels, so technically we have 8 target removals and 3 Wrathes. Fiery Justice can kill most planeswalkers.
Nahiri is for looting effect and removal with some chance to win with her ult ability. We still have kami and a lot of champ blockers to let her survive enough. Another reason playing a bit less removal spells - Nahiri ults much faster most planeswalker in modern.
Storm isn't great match up but we still have some tool - our removals and Gaddock Teeg with gravehate cards (Dryad and Wheel).
Overall Storm match up is minus but with new Bant list I hope to improve it to
**About streams I'm not sure. I hate Mtgo's shuffler so much so I sold most my tickets and stuff. Difference of draws in reality and MTGo is so hufe that my vinrate in MTGo is much less than in reality. I just can't explain how I'm salty about this. Yeah, also linear decks have much better and stable hands in MTGo... argh.
About your games and list.
Are you sure about 4 Surgical extraction in main? Not 3?
What do you think about adding second Weathered wayfarer and free 2 slots instead of Aven Mindcensor? When I played this bird - it always was so slow (especially on draw) and vulnerable to any removal spell.
About Mainboard LD - my friend tests 4 GQ + 2 Tec edges with 2 Wayfarers and was fully satisfied with this LD plan. Prob test this?
LD lands are powerhouse against Valakut Decks. Even 2 GQ with some life can stop their plan unless they have Omen.
About third Proclamation. I usually use this tactic - if I want to cast Proclamation early on turn 3-4, I play 3 copies. If I need Proc mostly for Forecast ability or it's Forecast ability doesn't matter much - I play 2 copies.
If you're gonna play more wayfarers - you can play 1 copy of Emeria bcs you have more tools to search for her. When I played monoW my minimum number of plains to play Emeria was 11. Rest are slots for utility lands.
Also if you will play Cyclands - I think maximum of taplands in our decks is 6. More = very slow game. Cyclands also help to break through manaflood.
@soccerfanxl
Congrats with good results
Why you're not playing Flagstones of Trokair in main? And what do you think about adding 1 extra cycland?
Also I'm very interested in your good results with Gideon tribal. That's really great that this tech works in our shell.
Want to see more and better results!
@Krazran
Thank you for your responce! It's really important for me.
I agree with you, Trace isn't for this build. I Added 4 Bant Charms instead for improving match ups against tier 1 decks. I think this should help much more. While for Naya version with Moons they're much better bcs they stabilize us from our own Moon.
About disadvantage had same feeling on tests. Need good mana utilization like Sphinx's revelation, Mikaeus and etc.
Other way to have good use of this enchantments - use them on manlands making them mostly invulnerable to most Opp's removal spells.
Nahiri is here mostly for first 2 abilities and sometimes wins with her ult. She also take a lot of attention from us letting us to go to lategame and develop.
About Safewright Quest - I'm still not sure how to cut it and rebuild manabase. Traces will not always be in hand and we will not always will have all colored lands. Probably it's better to cut Emeria plan for more stable manabase and good utility lands. I will think about it, thank you.
Yeah, prob will change manabase suitable for Blood moons more. Will think how to do it. I alsa want to add some GQ prob or other LD lands.
Karametra was dropped - she wasn't great on tests.
Last Bant and Naya list are above.
Thank you for help!
While I did mention my 2 losses were to flooding, I was close to losing just as many due to mana screw, I think 23 is already light so I don't want to thin too much even though I don't have a good way to "fetch" mistveil plains without it, also it gives us another weakness if someone plays Leonin arbiter or blood moon,
But main + of Flagstones in comparison with Fetches that you can "fetch" when you want while having mana from Flagstones. Am I not correct?
Same here for Leonin and we already have tonns of basics to play around Blood moon.
I have lost a decent number of games due to not hitting 4 mana quickly enough on 23 lands, as well.
Over the last few weeks, this Esper list has been killing for me, including my best finish at a PPTQ (4th, I punted to Storm). 9-2-1, with a record of 2-1 against Storm, wins against Abzan, Grixis Control, Grixis Shadow, Stompy, Burn, Affinity, UW Control, loss to UWR Mid-Range. The draw was to a UR Kiki deck where I punted in a fast game 2, Orzhov Charming back Ethersworn Canonist in my hand instead of just leaving it up when they went for Kiki. I'll be taking it to GP Phoenix. I was originally in the main event, but I've enjoyed it so much that I switched over to the Modern package. I think the deck can feast, especially if I tighten up my play, but I am worried about how absent Eldrazi has been in my testing.
I'll probably track down a third Verdict and go 3/1 split with Wrath, but I'm very happy with how smoothly it runs. For the person who asked about Crucible - I'm getting a lot of wins just from dropping turn 3 Ghostly, turn 4 Crucible and locking them with Ghost Quarter. That stole games from Abzan, Grixis Shadow and Affinity and is just an easy way to punish other decks, especially if you don't want to hurt yourself by running Blood Moons out of the side.
My only change I'm curious about is Spell Queller for other blue decks (to counter a counter) but I just don't think there is room. It would probably mean cutting Extirpate, which is too good against Tron, Dredge and Snapcaster decks, where it usually takes Cryptic Away and allows me to better play around their counters.
Ideas behind Mikaeus, the Lunarch and Godsend is to make our hawks and Inspectors into real threats. I swapped Lunarch in place of Figure of Destiny just recently, so can't tell if it's any good. Abbey is here for testing as well instead of 1GC (ye i resigned on tron). So far i made it work on front half as value grinding creature engine, and flipped it once against Jund, but alas i had exactly 5 creatures and opp dropped Liliana of the Veil very next turn and made me sad :(. Elspeth is maindeck answer to non-creature pernaments. (hopefuly they dont have token copy of Ensnaring Bridge). On empty board it's real clock and with some board pressence it has synergies with Serra A. Comments appriciated.
Edit: Elspeth also holds godsend sword! FLAVOUR!!!!!!!!
If I add flagstones I go from 13 basics to 9, so only 9 of my 23 will be basics which will make double white very hard to do. Like I mentioned before not being able to fetch a mistveil plains is the only reason right now I would consider playing it again.
I haven't completely dropped nevermore, there were times I wish I had it, just couldn't find the room this weekend I expected a lot of counter company so linvala got the spot instead. Also runed halo is just too good against too many decks I find it hard to believe I didn't play it much sooner.
Please talk more about Runed Halo.
When you side it in? What do you name?
against infect you name what ever threat they currently have or just blind name blighted agent if they haven't played anything yet.
titan shift- valakut
ad nauseam-lightning storm
death shadow- death shadow
8 rack- the rack (sometimes I wont bother to side it in, I find this match pretty easy)
storm- grapeshot
If valakut decks fall out of the meta I will most likely cut it though. Like I said earlier, I still like nevermore as a way to keep your opponent off their outs, it often does the same job as runed halo or slightly better, but right now runed halo is better positioned.
I side it in:
Scapeshift: naming Valakut doesnt win you a game, because you can die to random beats and you cant make any board presence, but it buys you a time when they go off until you find maybe GC.
Tron: it sucks, too diverse threats, the i win card is Ugin and you cant do anything about it with halo
Storm: its probably delaying them by one or two turns - preparing more so they can find answer, but when they go off, Echo it back and finish. If they dont manage to find echo (but they will) Empty 1000 tokens so you better have Wrath and they no remand. generally it goes in if you have more cards you want side out than you side in, but don't count on it as i am now immune to grapeshot
Against Death shadow naming Death shadow goes a long way, it's getting discarded anyway, but it's good when it hits board
Against affinity, it's good matchup anyway, and it sucks
eldrazi tron: i bring it, it's bad removal, if you want to go down some 1 drops bcs of chalice you can diverse your curve a little, it dies to all is dust and rachtet bomb if need be
UW control: well you can name Gearhulk or Colonnade, its probably worse than path and so, they can just bounce it and counter on next cast, try to not bring it in
Burn: it's good matchup anyway, you can totally backfire Eidolon, when you name it, so only they take dmg.
Copycat: yes please, name Felidar G
Vizier Company: you can name balista for no instant death, but you better have wrath in hand for sweep or they just swing in with 1000/1000 balista, and theyc can basically pick best 7 cards from their deck so you'll have trouble getting back
Death taxes: no good target
Lantern: meh... i mean you can name that one mill stone with targeting, but they play abrupt decay anyway if it's being too effective, so no
Dredge: well... It's better than normal removal bcs they will for sure got 3-4 of the same creature, be it Bloodghast or that UB 3/3 (can't recall name now)
Merfolk: not really, you wont win 1 for 1 destroying creatures, you need wrath (especially now with branchwalker)
Living end: nope
All junk/jund/abzan: it's actually pretty good removal, so i bring it in instead of serra's which i can have like 1 postboard, they die anyway, and it's terrible card if you are not specifically searching for it
That is my point of view anyway...
Generally, it sucks against most planeswalkers (which i find a problem) beacuse Chandra will kill you with emblem if unchecked, Karn will eat it it first and so on. Use it as additional removal if you feel like you need it. It doesn't save your planeswalker from named card. And of course you can hose random combo decks with it or other janky brews.
Limited printing, unique effect that is really powerful, has eternal application forever.
I don't hit it often, but when I do, it is absurdly powerful. Even when I don't get it, it smooths out mana so easily in my 3-color build. I would crack a fetch every turn if I could.
This also depends on deck you're plaing against.
If it has a lot of basics - LD plan will not be successful.
Also the first plan you should do - develop your board, clear you deck from lands and etc. And if you have enough time and resources to reslize LD plan - you do it.
Also Crucible is great against LotV - you can discard lands and play them from gy.
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This cards perfectly defends or 3+ color manabase from LD and Blood moons and gelp to cast our 4drops on turn 3. ( Wanna Wrath of God on turn 3? )
Upgraded my Bant Version to this:
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Mistveil Plains
1 Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
2 Temple Garden
1 Scattered Groves
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Kami of False Hope
3 Thraben Inspector
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Path to exile
2cc (12):
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Glittering Wish
4 Trace of Abundance
3cc (6):
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Renegade Rallier
4cc (7):
2 Cast Out
3 Ranger of Eos
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Karametra, God of Harvests
1 Hex Parasite
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
1 Safewright Quest
1 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wheel of Sun and moon
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Teferi's Moat
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Sky Hussar
With 22 lands deck got better topdecks and we also get more spped to cast our big drops and utilise Wishes faster with high cost cards from wishboard.
Also theese auras protects us from Blood moons and land destroy perfectly (especially they protect our Emerias and Mistveils) but lost 2 Ghost Quarter and My own LD plan. Not sure what is better.
The same time builded Naya version with landhate in main (Blood Moons) and fast clock and removal - Nahiri.
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Mistveil Plains
2 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
2 Scattered Groves
1 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
1cc (13):
1 Kami of False Hope
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Path to exile
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Trace of Abundance
3cc (5):
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
3 Blood Moon
4cc (9):
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Wrath of God
5cc (1):
1 Karametra, God of Harvests
15cc (1):
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Hex Parasite
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Piece
2 Harsh Mentor
2 Naya Charm
1 Fiery Justice
2 Cast Out
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
Discuss
Updated lists.
Hello Lear, it's good to see the effort that you are putting in these out the box MartyrProc lists. I don't have all the cards for the three color manabase, but I'm planning to slowly get the land cards.
So, my comments here was only theoretically based.
Trace of Abundance seems good, the shroud it's appealing enough. I'm gonna buy it and test on a GW version (with Renegade, Sun Titan and LD, without Wish and the 3rd color). But with Trace of Abundance and only 22 lands, I would drop a Emeria and/or a Mistveil Plains. You have six enters the battlefield tapped lands, Gavony Township and only 22 lands. I see that you are leaning on Karametra, God of Harvests, but it's rough.
And zero Ghost Quarters, Tectonic Edge. How it's the match against Eldrazi Tron?
And old Gx Tron seems almost 0% win. I know even with GQ, TE the win percentage it's very low, but without these lands it's even lower.
With my deck (MonoW or BW Martyr) I didn't leave home without at least three GQ. Always has a Tron and/or a Valakut deck, and sometimes you could steal a game or a match. My today's plan is to add green and have access to Renegade Ralier mainly for GQ and TE.
About the Bant Wish deck:
For sure, I would drop Safewright Quest and move one Trace of Abundance for the wish target. We never keep a hand with only one land, and Trace of Abundance helps when we need lands the same that Safewright Quest do, but Trace of Abundance opens the room for acceleration. T2 Wish for Trace, T3 do the land drop and cast Trace of Abundance... Safewright Quest does not allow that.
Kami of False Hope is on the list because of the lack of Ghostly Prison, right? I know that our lists are quite different, but Kami seems week. My list has 4x Wrath and 3x Gideon of the Trials and yours only 2x Wrath + G. Wish. When was the last time that you do the Kami lock?
Thrun, the Last Troll + Sphinx of the Final Word: Is control really that bad match?
What happened to Fracturing Gust/Qasali Pridemage/Sundering Growth or even Detention Sphere? No love to beat Ensnaring Bridge
About the Naya Version
Loved the list! B. Moon helps so much against Tron, Grixis DS and Valakut.
Trace of Abundance looks better here, T3 Nahiri: I'm in.
But I really dislike the Karametra, God of Harvests here. The plan is to end the game quicker with Nahiri and Karametra doesn't work according the plan.
For long grind and wide games, cards like Cast Out, O. Ring looks more interesting: it's a good way to deal with opposing Planeswalkers, Bobs, artifacts and etc. Even the 4th Ranger seems better, because it helps to protect Nahiri. What is you thought about Karametra? Is it only the B plan?
I prefer the Naya list even if Naya can't beat Storm and Bant can do it. I'm curious, how is the Storm matchup?
And most important question is: When we will see a streaming with these two lists?
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
My list:
8 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mistveil Plains
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Tectonic Edge
Creatures (17)
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Serra Ascendant
1 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Path to Exile
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Banishing Light
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
3 Gideon of the Trials
4 Wrath of God
2 Gideon Jura
1 Hex Parasite
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Stony Silence
2 Nevermore
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Celestial Purge
I'm really committed with increasing the win percentage against Valakut and Tron. My deck completely folds to Storm, but here on my LGS no one plays it.
The matchs:
8-Rack (Win 2-1)
Through the Breach Titan (Draw 1-1)
Soul Sisters (Win 1-0)
Bant Eldrazi (Win 2-1)
Tron (Win 2-1)
8-Rack (monoblack version)
G1: I've draw the 3x Proc with only one CMC card (a Martyr). Wrench Mind plus Liliana of the Veil, I couldn't come back before Shrieking Affliction kills me.
G2: Kept a very good hand with Hawk, Martyr, 2x Ranger and 3x Lands. I'm late finding the 4th land, and he had a Lili. But Oblivion Ring saves me from the ultimate. Gideon of the Trials gives me a emblem and when Gideon Jura came into play he concedes.
G3: I'm facing 2x The Rack, but he does a misplay that cost him the game. I had four lands (one was Mistveil Plains), Martyr+O.Ring in play, Martyr + 3x Hawk in the grave and Proc+Hawk in hand. I pass the turn without cast any spell and with the all the lands untapped. He topdecked Inquisition of Kozilek and chooses discard Proc instead of Hawk. EOT Mistveil + Mistveil on my turn and the Hawk finds me two cards that blanks The Rack and gives me time to find Gideon of the Trials and Ranger of Eos. Close one.
Sideboard plan: -4 Wrath, -1 GP, +1 Hex Parasite, +2 Nevermore, +2 Celestial Purge
Through the Breach Titan
G1: I'm on the play and have a T3 active Serra. But he has six lands (and didn't played the land of the turn), casts Titan searching for 2x Valakut, hold the priority and plays a mountain (six damage on Serra and six on me). I had Path, Ghost Quarter and could not do anything. Next turn Summoner's Pact seals the game.
G2: Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction the Valakut. His hand was 2x Titan + Through the Breach, he had only one Emrakul, 3x Obstinate Baloth and 2x Titan for additional creatures in the deck. With he playing fair, my job was to keep he off the 5th land and Tectonic Edge helps a lot. The games extends a lot, he casts chalice for one and for two. Oblivion Ring takes care of Chalice for one. I found Ranger and made a active Serra before he finds the 5th land. But 2x Path to Exile ends the game.
G3: We had only 2 minutes and he couldn't kill when the turns were called (and he would not will kill, because I had Aven Mindcensor in hand).
Sideboard plan: -4 Wrath, -1 GP, -3 Proc, -1 Gideon Jura, +3 Aven Mindcensor, +4 Surgical Extraction, +2 Nevermore
Soul Sisters
G1: He starts with Serra Ascendant and I do the same. Them, he thought that I am playing Soul Sisters too and extends the battlefield with creatures (2x Sister, 10/10 Ajani, 3x Spectral tokens, Ranger). This was one of the most happier Wrath of God that I've cast. Ranger of Eos seals the deal.
G2: He kept a very good hand, T1 Serra, T2 Martyr revealing Hawk, 2x Serra and Ranger. I'm in trouble. My hand has Wrath and Martyr, but only 3x lands, if I lose a untapped land on T4 I'm dead. T3 he plays the 2x Serras and I'm at 8 life. Next turn I play Martyr, gain 18 and pray to find the 4th land. I draw it and cast Wrath. But he had Hawk and, next turn, Spectral Procession. I go to 7 life and draw the 2nd Wrath. He was playing cautiously, his board was Hawk and the tokens. I'm at 3 life. When I cast the 2nd Wrath, next turn he casts Sister+2x Hawks. My Martyr plus Hawk gives me 15 life. He draws Windbrisk Heights and I draw and cast Gideon Jura, adding +2. Next turn he casts Martyrs, attacks and reveal Archangel of Thune under Windbrisk, sac Martyr (two +1/+1 counters). I had no board, next turn I draw the 7th land, cast O.Ring on the angel. Then, MartyrProc slowly starts to move up my life. He finds Ranger (and the 4th Serra) and I'm in trouble again. My life was slowing dropping again and he finds Ajani's Pridemate. The 3rd Wrath saves me again. Then, I start to Proc and Mistveil the Wrath to the bottom of the deck. I made a misplay that nearly cost me the game: the game was under control, I've cast the 4th Wrath when his board a Ajani 10/10, 2x Sisters and 3x Tokens. He had +100 life and I'm at 38. The plan on my mind was to kill him, instead of the mill plan. This was a huge mistake, because next turn he casts a gigantic Return to the Ranks returning ALL the creatures in the grave to the battlefield, gaining 90 life with 4x Serra Ascendant, 2x 92/92 Ajani and a bunch of sisters and Martyrs. The luck was with me, and I've drawn and cast the 5th Wrath (I love Mistveil Plains). Then, I adjust the plan to mill him and kept putting Wrath on the bottom of the deck. He casted two more Return to the Ranks, but now I was prepared. The time ended and I win with 1-0.
Sideboard plan: -1 Gideon of the Trials, +1 Ghostly Prison
Bant Eldrazi
G1: T2 Thought-Knot Seer (via 2x Eldrazi Temple), T3 Reality Smasher, T4 Nissa, Steward of Elements. I've casted Gideon of the Trials, but the 2x Reality Smasher kills him. Two Gideon Jura gives me two more turns, my I didn't found Wrath of God.
G2: I had a good control hand: Martyr, Hawk, Path, O.Ring and Lands. He had a T2 RIP but no action. I've drawn 2x useless Proc and Gideon of the Trials was blanking TKS. Tectonic Edge kept him off the 5th land. When I cast Ranger and made two active Serra he concedes showing a hand with 2x Reality Smasher and 2x Drowner of Hope.
G3: He had T3 TKS (takes Wrath) and T4 TKS (takes Ranger). Ghostly Prison disturbs his game. He casts Nissa, Steward of Elements. Path to Exile from top kills one TKS and I'm obliged to cast 2x Hawk to keeps Nissa low on counters. Gideon of the Trials stops the other TKS, but I can't kill Nissa. His hand has 3x cards, and I'm not attacking with GOT (maybe he had Path). He casts counterspell on my O.Ring and Gideon Jura. When I cast Ranger of Eos, he casts Reality Smasher nearing killing GOT. Active Serra took Path to Exile and he counters Wrath. But the 2nd O.Ring and 2nd Ranger saves the day.
Sideboard plan: -1 Proclamation of Rebirth, +1 Ghostly Prison
Gb Tron
G1: He had natural Tron plus Expedition Map, making T3 Karn and T4 Ulamog.
G2: Now it's my time to the nut draw: T1 Serra, T2 Martyr (active Serra) and I had Ghost Quarter, Stony Silence plus Aven Mindcensor on hand. Further, my T3 draw was another Serra. He couldn't find Fatal Push.
G3: I kept a average hand with GQ, Plains, Martyr, GOT, 2x Aven Mindcensor and O.Ring. I'm facing T1 Urza's Mine + Expedition Map, T2 Urza's Power Plant passing the turn. I didn't draw the 3rd land, I attack with Martyr and pass the turn. He fetches for the Urza's Tower and I'm obliged to use my GQ. Next turn he made a misplay: He draws the 2nd Urza's Power Plant, but chooses to play the Urza's Tower to not reveal information about the assembled Tron. He casts Chromatic Sphere and Fatal Push my Martyr, I gain 18 life. My next draw was Surgical Extraction, that takes the Power Plant in the grave, in the hand and the two in the deck. His hand was Karn and 2x Sylvan Scryin (he had 3x lands in the battlefield). I missed lands for two more turns, but draw Plains and casts Hawk. When he drew the 6th land, I draw Tectonic Edge and use it. He fails to find lands in the next three turns while I found 2x more and cast Ranger of Eos, fetching 2x Ranger of Eos. When he finds the 7nd land, my battlefield had 2x Hawk and 2x active Serra (he was at 8). He shows his hand with: Ulamog, World Breaker, Karn and Ugin
Sideboard plan: -1 GP, -3 Proc, -4 Wrath, -2 Path, -2 Gideon Jura, +1 Hex Parasite, +3 Aven Mindcensor, +4 Surgical Extraction, +2 Stony Silence, +2 Nevermore
I'm very happy with the results, but I know that I had really good luck against Tron and my opponents had done mistakes that cost them the match.
Overall:
- The 4x GQ and 3x Tectonic Edge was great, but I'm not playing these manabase with only 23 lands. I will drop 1x Aven Mindcensor (underperfomed), move 1x Ghostly Prison to the sideboard and add the 24 land.
- I've mulligan two or three times because not having a colored land in the starting hand.
- One game (the 2nd against Valakut) I kept a hand with 2x GQ and a Tectonic Edge (without white mana source) because I had Surgical Extraction. My 3rd draw was a plains.
- Gideon of the Trials was good, The Rack couldn't win through emblem and Gideon Jura. Against Eldrazi it's good when they does not have Reality Smasher. Isn't a dead card against Tron and Valakut as Ghostly Prison is. In my mind, he substitutes Ghostly Prison.
- Tectonic Edge was great, but I will test Field of Ruin on its place and report the results of my tests.
- The 3rd Proc bothers me, yet with only 23 lands. But it needs more testing. When Proc is good, it's a game changer.
- Gideon Jura is worse than Elspeth, Sun's Champion. But, because of Gideon of the Trials, we need to play Gideon Jura.
- Emeria was only assembled one time, against Soul Sisters. This result was expected because of my land choice. Anyway, against 8-Rack, Tron and Valakut you never assemble it. Against Eldrazi Tron I never had more than six lands. So, no conclusion about Emeria, I think it stays the same 2-off.
Any advice for me?
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
classic results
affinity 2-0
bw token 2-0
throught the breach 1-2
scapeshift 0-2
humans 2-1
infect 2-0
jund shadow 2-0
mono white taxes 2-0
2 mistveil plains
2 emeria, the sky ruin
1 field of ruin
4 ghost quarter
1 irrigated farmland
1 weathered wayfarer
1 thraben inspector
4 serra ascendant
4 martyr of sands
4 squadron hawk
4 ranger of eos
1 aven mindcensor
4 path to exile
2 banishing light
2 oblivion ring
2 Gideon of the trials
1 Gideon, ally of zendikar
1 Gideon jura
3 proclamation of rebirth
1 worship
2 surgical extraction
1 linvala, keeper of silence
1 celestial purge
2 runed halo
1 aven mindcensor
1 pithing needle
1 disenchant
2 grafdigger's cage
2 stony silence
1 fracturing gust
my 2 losses were 2 flooding in game 3, but it happens, Gideon tribal is great, I don't miss sun titan, aven mindcensor is so so but I wanted another 3 drop play, don't miss ghostly prisons and 3 wraths is just fine.
Congratz on your wins in tourney! your deck seems nice. I agree with your point on Gideon of the Trials. I made same conclusion about it, and i like that it's a bit more proactive Prison. Is there an idea behind ORing and Banishing Light split, because imho Oring is strictly better in world of Abrupt Decay. Also i am not quite sure, but i prefer Runed Halo in place of Nevermore because it's not dead in topdeck and it deals with threats even when already casted.Nevermore is sometimes more valid tho, so i don't know. Are there some specific cards you are worried about? I'd be afraid of 7 colorless lands, as you said, mulling because of not having a color in monocolored deck seems akward and having only one source in early game can prove game changing (losing tempo). I don't think Field of Ruin will make the cut, but you are surely welcome to test it, i could be wrong. I like procing even for 3 mana, so it's usually not a problem of drawing multiple.
About Bant:
I must say i don't want to criticize only, but at least maybe we can get more creditable results that way. Anyway, Trace of Abundance. I admit i don't like it. Why? It's dead topdeck 95% of the time. In bant you are ramping exactly into... 2 Cast out or 2 Supreme verdicts, beacuse Ranger needs another turn anyway to make profit. Nevermind killed turn 2 when you cast it, which is huge deal in some matchups. You already have so many good options on turn 2 like Martyr with mana up, crack clue, play hawks, keep up path or play more 1drops. It's only ramp in the deck as 4-of so you can't really count on it either. Sometimes you just randomly shroud your land and ramp. Ramping after turn 3 seems just like pure card disadvantage without getting tempo advantage.
In Naya ramping into Nahiri seems okayish. Thing is, that martyr is not exactly build for defending planeswalker. If your goal is to wrath and slam Nahiri, you can add 4 martyrs in those Sun and moon prison decks. Suggested line T2 Wish for Trace, T3 do the land drop and cast Trace of Abundance is basically: Pay 4 mana, discard a card, skip 2 turns: you get a land that can add any mana with shroud. Awful. And i am sure, there are better options in sb than Safewright Quest.
There is a thing called Opportunity cost. When you play Blood moon you should be able to slam it T3 no matter what. To do that reliably, you would need to tweak your manabase a bit. You can't hope to support it with 3 basics of two colors. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16956&d=304905&f=MO - this is manabase that can support t3 blood moon no matter what. I understand it's overpowered card but...
I am not saying that Karametra is strictly bad, i am only saying, that you can play better card in 5drop slot, like any white planeswalker.
Don't take me wrong, i like trying new things. And i also think i provided some constructive criticism. Keep up the work
The split of o ring and banish light is to get around d sphere, echoing truth, effects
It's always good see good MartyrProc results. Keep the good work
We had came to similar conclusions. Gideon tribal is great, cut the 6CMC cards and go to 23 lands.
Irrigated Farmland looks good addition and I will ask again: -Have you Cycled it in any of these games?
- About Aven Mindcensor: It underperformed on my games. Did you cast it in any game? How it was? If you just wanted another three drop, how about another Thraben Inspector?
- Field of Ruin: what are your thoughts about it? Approves or disapproves?
Losing to flood it's tough, but it's a built-in fail in the control archetype.
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
Thanks Krazran, let's elevate the status of the MartyrProc on our meta
Banishing Light and Oblivion Ring: Like @soccerfanxl commented, it's because of Echoing Truth, Detention Sphere and Maelstrom Pulse.
Abrupt Decay is in the lowest use of all time, like Lightning Bolt. But even that, it's a tough decision. I'm with in the side of split the cards.
Yeah, we all are converging to the same conclusion: Gideon of the Trials belongs to MartyrProc. Good to know that you made the swap too.
The Nevermore idea I've copy from @soccerfanxl. But now even he dropped the card, I don't know what to say. Didn't cast it, but is good have a card like this against a wide field: The cards that worries me are, in the order: Grapeshot, Karn, Primeval Titan, Ugin, All is Dust, Through the Breach, Ulamog, Goryo's Vengeance, Liliana of the Veil, Scapeshift, Cryptic Command, Genesis Wave, Empty the Warrens. I think is these cards...
But I bring Nevermore only against "combo" decks (Storm, Tron, Valakut, Goryo's Vengeance), except Counters Company.
About Runed Halo I don't own it, so can't tell you if it is better than Nevermore. I was thinking on Gideon's Intervention for the occasion, but 4CMC walked me away from the card.
About the 7 colorless lands: I'm thinking about it, have to test a bit more. But the first impression is that a good risk. With the normal manabase, we don't mulligan too much and Squadron Hawk helps to recover from a mulligan. Maybe it's worth, I don't know. Against UW Control is one less Celestial Colonnade/Field of Ruin to bother you.
Most of time, I want the 2nd white only in the turn four. Gideon of the Trials costs 1WW, but sometimes we don't want cast it on T3. But we really need the second white source on T4 (Wrath of God) or play something and keep Path to Exile.
Overall I think it needs much more tests.
About Field of Ruin: It's already happening: see @soccerfanxl list and see this UW Control list from the open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116823).
Field of Ruin has many restrictions, but has two advantages that Tectonic Edge doesn't have:
1st: You don't lose a land. Your opponent doesn't too, but we need more lands than our opponents (Tron needs only the right lands most of time and against Valakut it's one less mountain to fire against you).
2nd: In my first game against Gb Tron, my opponent T1 Urza's piece + Expedition Map, T2 plays another Urza's land and passes the turn. My battlefied had: 2x Plains + Tectonic Edge. I cannot do anything, next turn he Karns me. If Tectonic Edge was Field of Ruin the Tron would not be assembled on turn three.
I like Proclamation of Rebirth a lot, but the luck to use it isn't on my side these days
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
I cycled it a few times and played a few times, seems worth it still, aven mindcensor did win me 1 game in tandem with wayfarer searching out ghost quarters but I like the added flyer to help close out games,field of ruin is better than Tec edge in my opinion against tron variants or against manlands it's great to not go down on lands
@tumorbr
I'm still testing and upgrading Bant version while my timmate is testing Naya version. Will add lists below.
Theory is great too, bcs each player has diff experience and understanding of game. This will also be very helpfull.
As @Krazran mentioned, there's no much targets to ramp into and I will agree with him. So I cut this ramp spells for more disrupt spells for current tier 1 decks. In Naya version I don't wanna cut much Cycling lands bcs they're like cantrips under the moon and in match ups where Moon isn't great, works Emeria plan. Yes, a bit slow... But I think it worth it.
About Ghost quarters and same LD cards. Eldrazi Tron is creature based deck so I don't have much problems with it and Sigarda, Host of Herons is closely unkillable creature for this deck. Also she kills opponent in few turns, especially with Gavony Township. Against Oldtron we still have Glittering Wish -> Gaddock Teeg plan but on my tests it's not enough. (Casted Gaddock Teeg, Meddling mage on O-Stone. Opp looked at me and casted Ballista on 5, lul. I was so salty.) So I dropped Oldtron match up (it can't be + anyway, only in Mardu or Naya with tonns of LD versions probably) and still have options against Valakut decks.
About manabase and GQ (LD lands). I would like to add LD lands in manabase but I always have a feeling like I'm shooting in my leg destabalizing already not very stable manabase. They're great with Renegade Ralliers (Made very salty RG Titanshift players few times). But unstable manabase is pretty big problem. I think LD lands works in 1-2 color manabases but not in 3+ colors.
Bant version:
Here's new list I came to:
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Mistveil Plains
1 Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
3 Temple Garden
1 Scattered Groves
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Gavony Township
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Kami of False Hope
3 Thraben Inspector
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Path to exile
2cc (8):
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Glittering Wish
3cc (10):
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Bant Charm
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4cc (6):
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Supreme Verdict
5cc (1):
1 Karametra, God of Harvests
1 Hex Parasite
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
1 Safewright Quest
1 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wheel of Sun and moon
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Teferi's Moat
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Sky Hussar
1 Sphinx's Revelation
I dropped Trace for Bant version. About Sifewright quest - I usually search it when I want to not loose my landdrop or stabilize for third color. Bcs I can't build manabase to have on turn 3 stabily 3 colors (bcs of Emeria), I have to play Safewright quest in Sideboard. For first Time I didn't like as someone mentioned it but now I like it a lot. In mana screw games with lots of Glittering wishes in hand this card helps a lot.
Yeah, you're right. I returned him bcs of Affinity and returning of Infect decks that are annoying. I don't like much Kami now too but still need some soft lock options.
I always had problems with UW control before bcs he has tonns of LD and gravehate postside with wich pretty hard to deal with through counterspells. So I was seeking ultimative answers and added them. Also they're great against Valakut deck bcs not dying to Valakuts and removals from opponent. Theese two guys improve UWx control match ups with LD really great. And other UWx control decks without LD they just make these match ups supre easy and fast without waiting for turns.
I dropped Qasali Pridemage bcs I added 4 mainboard Bant charms and added Dromoka's command in SB instead of Qasali. Yes, Qasali has great synergies inside our decks but I tried to have maximum answers for tier 1 decks.
Bant Charm is good metage descision: Against E-tron answers to Chalices and big Creatures, against Storm kills enablers and counter Gifts, against Affinity kills everything, Grixis Shadow kills any big creature, against Titanshift not great but it's extra removal for Titan, against Breach - kills Titans and counters Breach, UWx controls decks - counters counters and opp's Sphinx's revelation, CoCoCo - counters annying CoCoCo and extra removal for turn 2 Druid, BW E&Taxes - extra answers for TKS and Tidehollow scullers, against Ad Nauseum - counters Ad Nauseum.
I feel this spell should be great in current meta and Sphinx's revelation in SB should restore our hand pretty fast after a lot of 1-1 removal-creature trades. Also added Dromoka's command bcs very often got killed by Titanshift with Omen on board. Command is much cheaper than Gust so I decided to test it.
For Bant version I decided to ignore Oldtron decks bcs they're like tier 2-3 and you can see them rarely so our main priority to have options to fight tier 1 combodecks without decreasing of efficiency of our main plan.
Naya version:
Last list:
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Mistveil Plains
2 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Scattered Groves
2 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
1 Gavony Township
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
1cc (12):
1 Kami of False Hope
3 Thraben Inspector
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Path to exile
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Glittering Wish
4 Trace of Abundance
3cc (5):
3 Blood Moon
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4cc (8):
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Wrath of God
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
15cc (1):
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Hex Parasite
2 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Safewright Quest
1 Dryad Militant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Burning-Tree Shaman
1 Dromoka's command
1 Fiery Justice
1 Naya Charm
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Yeah, in Naya version with Blood moons, Trace of Abundance is much better bcs it defends us from our own Blood moons and stabilises a lot to cast turn 3 any colored 3-4cvc spell we like.
Yeah, dropped here from list. Didn't like her either on tests.
About removal - we have in Sideboard some multicolored removal speels, so technically we have 8 target removals and 3 Wrathes. Fiery Justice can kill most planeswalkers.
Nahiri is for looting effect and removal with some chance to win with her ult ability. We still have kami and a lot of champ blockers to let her survive enough. Another reason playing a bit less removal spells - Nahiri ults much faster most planeswalker in modern.
Storm isn't great match up but we still have some tool - our removals and Gaddock Teeg with gravehate cards (Dryad and Wheel).
Overall Storm match up is minus but with new Bant list I hope to improve it to
**About streams I'm not sure. I hate Mtgo's shuffler so much so I sold most my tickets and stuff. Difference of draws in reality and MTGo is so hufe that my vinrate in MTGo is much less than in reality. I just can't explain how I'm salty about this. Yeah, also linear decks have much better and stable hands in MTGo... argh.
About your games and list.
Are you sure about 4 Surgical extraction in main? Not 3?
What do you think about adding second Weathered wayfarer and free 2 slots instead of Aven Mindcensor? When I played this bird - it always was so slow (especially on draw) and vulnerable to any removal spell.
About Mainboard LD - my friend tests 4 GQ + 2 Tec edges with 2 Wayfarers and was fully satisfied with this LD plan. Prob test this?
LD lands are powerhouse against Valakut Decks. Even 2 GQ with some life can stop their plan unless they have Omen.
About third Proclamation. I usually use this tactic - if I want to cast Proclamation early on turn 3-4, I play 3 copies. If I need Proc mostly for Forecast ability or it's Forecast ability doesn't matter much - I play 2 copies.
If you're gonna play more wayfarers - you can play 1 copy of Emeria bcs you have more tools to search for her. When I played monoW my minimum number of plains to play Emeria was 11. Rest are slots for utility lands.
Also if you will play Cyclands - I think maximum of taplands in our decks is 6. More = very slow game. Cyclands also help to break through manaflood.
@soccerfanxl
Congrats with good results
Why you're not playing Flagstones of Trokair in main? And what do you think about adding 1 extra cycland?
Also I'm very interested in your good results with Gideon tribal. That's really great that this tech works in our shell.
Want to see more and better results!
@Krazran
Thank you for your responce! It's really important for me.
I agree with you, Trace isn't for this build. I Added 4 Bant Charms instead for improving match ups against tier 1 decks. I think this should help much more. While for Naya version with Moons they're much better bcs they stabilize us from our own Moon.
About disadvantage had same feeling on tests. Need good mana utilization like Sphinx's revelation, Mikaeus and etc.
Other way to have good use of this enchantments - use them on manlands making them mostly invulnerable to most Opp's removal spells.
Nahiri is here mostly for first 2 abilities and sometimes wins with her ult. She also take a lot of attention from us letting us to go to lategame and develop.
About Safewright Quest - I'm still not sure how to cut it and rebuild manabase. Traces will not always be in hand and we will not always will have all colored lands. Probably it's better to cut Emeria plan for more stable manabase and good utility lands. I will think about it, thank you.
Yeah, prob will change manabase suitable for Blood moons more. Will think how to do it. I alsa want to add some GQ prob or other LD lands.
Karametra was dropped - she wasn't great on tests.
Last Bant and Naya list are above.
Thank you for help!
Same here for Leonin and we already have tonns of basics to play around Blood moon.
Over the last few weeks, this Esper list has been killing for me, including my best finish at a PPTQ (4th, I punted to Storm). 9-2-1, with a record of 2-1 against Storm, wins against Abzan, Grixis Control, Grixis Shadow, Stompy, Burn, Affinity, UW Control, loss to UWR Mid-Range. The draw was to a UR Kiki deck where I punted in a fast game 2, Orzhov Charming back Ethersworn Canonist in my hand instead of just leaving it up when they went for Kiki. I'll be taking it to GP Phoenix. I was originally in the main event, but I've enjoyed it so much that I switched over to the Modern package. I think the deck can feast, especially if I tighten up my play, but I am worried about how absent Eldrazi has been in my testing.
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Squadron Hawk
1 Sun Titan
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Orzhov Charm
2 Wrath of God
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Path to Exile
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Detention Sphere
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Mistveil Plains
1 Swamp
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Island
1 Shambling Vent
2 Extirpate
2 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Stony Silence
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
I'll probably track down a third Verdict and go 3/1 split with Wrath, but I'm very happy with how smoothly it runs. For the person who asked about Crucible - I'm getting a lot of wins just from dropping turn 3 Ghostly, turn 4 Crucible and locking them with Ghost Quarter. That stole games from Abzan, Grixis Shadow and Affinity and is just an easy way to punish other decks, especially if you don't want to hurt yourself by running Blood Moons out of the side.
My only change I'm curious about is Spell Queller for other blue decks (to counter a counter) but I just don't think there is room. It would probably mean cutting Extirpate, which is too good against Tron, Dredge and Snapcaster decks, where it usually takes Cryptic Away and allows me to better play around their counters.
1x Emeria, thy Sky Ruin
2x Mistveil Plains
3x Shambling Vent
4x Marsh Flats
3x Ghost quarter
1x Westvale Abbey
4x Godless Shrine
6x Plains
1CMC
1x Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1x Weathered Wayfarer
2x Thraben Inspector
3x Serra Ascendant
4x Martyr of Sands
2x Path to Exile
4x Orzhov Charm
4x Squadron Hawk
3CMC
3x Gideon of the Trials
3x Proclamation of Rebirth
1x Godsend
4CMC
4x Ranger of Eos
3x Wrath of God
5CMC
1x Elspeth Tirel
Side:
1x Hex Parasite
2x Relic of progenitus
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Stony Silence
1x Runed Halo
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Rule of Law
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ixalan's Binding
2x Cranial Extraction
1x Hour of Revelation
Ideas behind Mikaeus, the Lunarch and Godsend is to make our hawks and Inspectors into real threats. I swapped Lunarch in place of Figure of Destiny just recently, so can't tell if it's any good. Abbey is here for testing as well instead of 1GC (ye i resigned on tron). So far i made it work on front half as value grinding creature engine, and flipped it once against Jund, but alas i had exactly 5 creatures and opp dropped Liliana of the Veil very next turn and made me sad :(. Elspeth is maindeck answer to non-creature pernaments. (hopefuly they dont have token copy of Ensnaring Bridge). On empty board it's real clock and with some board pressence it has synergies with Serra A. Comments appriciated.
Edit: Elspeth also holds godsend sword! FLAVOUR!!!!!!!!
I haven't completely dropped nevermore, there were times I wish I had it, just couldn't find the room this weekend I expected a lot of counter company so linvala got the spot instead. Also runed halo is just too good against too many decks I find it hard to believe I didn't play it much sooner.
When you side it in? What do you name?
Modern: Soul Sisters
Commander: Isperia, Supreme Judge
against infect you name what ever threat they currently have or just blind name blighted agent if they haven't played anything yet.
titan shift- valakut
ad nauseam-lightning storm
death shadow- death shadow
8 rack- the rack (sometimes I wont bother to side it in, I find this match pretty easy)
storm- grapeshot
If valakut decks fall out of the meta I will most likely cut it though. Like I said earlier, I still like nevermore as a way to keep your opponent off their outs, it often does the same job as runed halo or slightly better, but right now runed halo is better positioned.
Scapeshift: naming Valakut doesnt win you a game, because you can die to random beats and you cant make any board presence, but it buys you a time when they go off until you find maybe GC.
Tron: it sucks, too diverse threats, the i win card is Ugin and you cant do anything about it with halo
Storm: its probably delaying them by one or two turns - preparing more so they can find answer, but when they go off, Echo it back and finish. If they dont manage to find echo (but they will) Empty 1000 tokens so you better have Wrath and they no remand. generally it goes in if you have more cards you want side out than you side in, but don't count on it as i am now immune to grapeshot
Against Death shadow naming Death shadow goes a long way, it's getting discarded anyway, but it's good when it hits board
Against affinity, it's good matchup anyway, and it sucks
eldrazi tron: i bring it, it's bad removal, if you want to go down some 1 drops bcs of chalice you can diverse your curve a little, it dies to all is dust and rachtet bomb if need be
UW control: well you can name Gearhulk or Colonnade, its probably worse than path and so, they can just bounce it and counter on next cast, try to not bring it in
Burn: it's good matchup anyway, you can totally backfire Eidolon, when you name it, so only they take dmg.
Copycat: yes please, name Felidar G
Vizier Company: you can name balista for no instant death, but you better have wrath in hand for sweep or they just swing in with 1000/1000 balista, and theyc can basically pick best 7 cards from their deck so you'll have trouble getting back
Death taxes: no good target
Lantern: meh... i mean you can name that one mill stone with targeting, but they play abrupt decay anyway if it's being too effective, so no
Dredge: well... It's better than normal removal bcs they will for sure got 3-4 of the same creature, be it Bloodghast or that UB 3/3 (can't recall name now)
Merfolk: not really, you wont win 1 for 1 destroying creatures, you need wrath (especially now with branchwalker)
Living end: nope
All junk/jund/abzan: it's actually pretty good removal, so i bring it in instead of serra's which i can have like 1 postboard, they die anyway, and it's terrible card if you are not specifically searching for it
That is my point of view anyway...
Generally, it sucks against most planeswalkers (which i find a problem) beacuse Chandra will kill you with emblem if unchecked, Karn will eat it it first and so on. Use it as additional removal if you feel like you need it. It doesn't save your planeswalker from named card. And of course you can hose random combo decks with it or other janky brews.
I don't hit it often, but when I do, it is absurdly powerful. Even when I don't get it, it smooths out mana so easily in my 3-color build. I would crack a fetch every turn if I could.
If it has a lot of basics - LD plan will not be successful.
Also the first plan you should do - develop your board, clear you deck from lands and etc. And if you have enough time and resources to reslize LD plan - you do it.
Also Crucible is great against LotV - you can discard lands and play them from gy.